Is This The World's First 'Crowd Designed' Bike?

Dec 30, 2015 at 5:01
by Pinkbike Staff  
We've all heard of crowd funding for new projects, but the concept of crowd designing is something else altogether. Rather than looking for perspective investors, German brand Alutech Cycles wanted to tap into the wants, needs and desires of prospective customers and through our friends at MTB-News and their bustling forum, that's exactly what they did...

Alutech ICB2.0
Alutech's ambitious project ultimately delivered a unique and truly one-of-a-kind bike, the very German sounding, ICB2.0.

The objective was to create an every-day trail bike using input obtained through MTB-News' forum and cut the development-process of a new bike into small chunks. Idea competitions would be held, and then the results would be discussed before having a public vote to decide which solution would be the one to take into prototyping and production. While the concept sounds great on paper, it wasn't without its hurdles.

bigquotesThe greatest challenge of all was to make sure that all of the individual decisions would fit together as a whole concept, which is purpose built rather than a wild mix of unrelated ideas. We didn't want the ICB2.0 to end up as the Homer-mobile of mountain bikes! - Project-manager, Stefanus Stahl

Alutech ICB2.0
Alutech ICB2.0

With a thriving digital MTB community of our own here at Pinkbike (love you guys!), we can only imagine the effort involved in filtering through all the crazy suggestions hidden among the amazing ones that would ultimately be suggested. But to work around this, the team behind the ICB2.0 project put the responsibility firmly in the hands of the community at large. Using this method to develop a new bike would remove the decision making process from the product manager and place it in the hands of the end user, but doing so would add its own unique challenges into the mix...


Power to the People

The community spoke and a robust and versatile bike, which was as 'future proof' as possible, was at the top of their wish list. The decision was then quickly made to use a simple single-pivot design, and with over 100-community members using the popular kinematic software, “Linkage X3” by bikechecker.com to search for the best pivot placement, they discovered that a simple shock-extension or 'yoke' (as seen on many of the bikes from the bigger brands bikes) would be enough to give a single pivot design a suitable amount of anti-squat, a slightly progressive linkage ratio and very little pedal-kick. From here, five prototypes were built and a few lucky community members were selected for testing. Within no time they set off for a test session in Finale Ligure, Italy, before the development process continued towards serial production.

Alutech ICB2.0
Alutech ICB2.0

Alutech ICB2.0
Alutech ICB2.0

Alutech ICB2.0
Alutech ICB2.0

Everyone has an opinion when it comes to forums and the kind of individuals who while away their time within them, typing nonsense and trolling to get a rise out of other users. But we're talking about a German mountain bike forum here and while we don't want to stereotype...

bigquotesThere was a user called Luniz who made a bold statement that given enough information on loads and design restrictions, he could make the shock extension twice as strong and even lighter. It transpired that in 'real life', he was working for the software company Altair - a world leader in optimized software. After feeding the data for the current design into his company's algorithms, he optimized the process, delivering a much stronger design, weighing 30% less than the original. - Alutech's brand manager, Sebastian Tegtmeier

And it doesn't end there, with other notable and highly qualified members of the community coming together to realize the goal of creating this special bike. From those able to utilize 3D rendering software to an engineer who saw that using angular contact bearings that can be preloaded without putting stress on the frame would be great... With the involvement of over 3,000 passionate mountain bikers, the barrage of suggestions helped deliver some ingenious ideas that made their way into production. Everything from a unique cable-routing design, which allows internal or external routing, to a machined headtube badge.

And of course there was the finish to consider as well. With a unanimous nod towards a long lasting, lightweight, timeless paint job, the crowd decided to get rid of the paint. Instead, the frame is polished, then masked, then blasted and then finally anodized in your choice of 'titanium grey', 'forest green' or 'royal blue'. And for those looking to build themselves something a little different, you can have the frame in a raw finish for an additional €100.


Alutech geometry
How many bikes have had their angles and dimensions chosen by a panel of over 3,000 members? And with a long front center, a short rear end, an appropriately slack head angle matched with a similarly steep seat angle, not to mention that it's available in 4 sizes, with a threaded BB and no Boost... Who designed this bike again?


With the ICB2.0 only just hitting the market, the success and failure of this project is yet to be determined from a commercial angle, but from a community perspective, this can only be seen as a success. With the involvement of so many individuals behind its creation, it's a superb testament as to what can be achieved with the right guidance from a bike brand looking to brake the mould and do things differently.

Indeed, Alutech Cycles deserve their fair share of the praise and it's great to see how things can be done if you think outside the box. The creation and delivery of the ICB2.0 also backs up that the mountain bike community is full of individuals with enough collective knowledge to pull something that for all intents and purpose, looks great, from the melting pot of an online forum. So, do you fancy one yourself or keen to know more about this new bike from Germany? Head on over to Alutech for the lowdown and prices.

Alutech ICB2.0
Where market research meets manufacturing head on... The Alutech Cycles ICB2.0 has taken flight, but could this radical departure from the traditional way of doing things herald a new possibility for brands who want to embrace their customers' wishes head on?


Where do we go from here?

In a world where many of us feel overwhelmed by the bike industry's incessant push for marginal gains and new standards, could this be a viable solution for those willing to work with the end user hand-in-hand, to create a bike with their wants and wishes taken into consideration?

Or is this just a flash in the pan idea that really wouldn't work within the confines of the manufacturing complex of today's bike industry? Let us know thoughts in your comments below...






219 Comments

  • 322 6
 I fear what the bike would look like if it was built on the opinions of pinkbike's readership.
  • 137 0
 It would never get built. Just never ending squabbling over which features were better.
  • 87 25
 "66.5 degree head angle?! That shit's steeper than Zinks line at rampage, its gotta be 60 or under if you're gonna enduro, bruh. Fail."
  • 331 3
 Pretty sure it would look like a Session.
  • 41 31
 for a "peoples-idea-funded" bike, how does it not have a water bottle cage mounts? it seems to be common these days to overlook them. ever considered other people hate wearing packs?

dissapointing
  • 14 55
flag chillrider199 (Dec 31, 2015 at 14:17) (Below Threshold)
 Im sorrt @therealtylerdurden but 66.5 isnt steep really. A Giant Reign, Specialized Enduro, and a Trek Slash im pretty sure have like 65.0. To top it off some pros are using 170mm forks and making it like 64 or 64.5. But 66.5 isnt the steepest.
  • 10 4
 We actually had a pink bike user hard tail frame, full suspension frame and a fork all in the works based off of a few PB users working together years ago. This isn't a new idea.
  • 9 2
 @chillrider199 Notice the quotation marks around my comment? It was a joke.
  • 11 0
 maybe i missed it but whats the travel?
  • 22 0
 This bike looks pretty sweet....I hate it.
  • 2 0
 @asteezcI don't see any mention of travel but from the pics it looks like its either running a Pike or a Lyrik, so I'm gonna assume in the 160mm range
  • 8 1
 I think it would have a 26" front wheel with 650b boost rear and a whole lotta contrevoursy
  • 1 0
 Sidenote, is that guy coming from the wood take off in the background?
  • 1 1
 I don't think so.. seems to come from the far left
  • 10 1
 Waki, can you design the perfect pink bike?
  • 4 0
 it has 130mm rear and is designed with a 545mm axle-crown height fork in mind
  • 4 0
 Those stack figures are quite high.
  • 5 1
 I dont understand the trend with 100mm headtubes on size large frames anyways. Everyone has to ride them with a stack of spacers or a handlebar with significant rise @MTB-Colada
  • 2 1
 130 on a medium is a bit excessive though
  • 4 1
 People really suck!
  • 1 2
 It would look like a session
  • 1 1
 @flag mirskeinereingefalln
This is my DJ bike at the moment. Well 135 rear and a 596mm 66rc up front Big Grin
  • 93 1
 A bike designed by a committee of internet experts. What could go wrong ?
  • 73 0
 Lets start one... First lets pick a wheel size....
  • 132 0
 Well that is really quite simple 26.75 you get most of the benefits of 27 but still retain 26 for life. Next question please!
  • 2 0
 user Socket better have had some input into this otherwise they'll get an essay into what they did wrong
  • 2 0
 Next Question - pick a suspension design
  • 48 1
 One with an impossibly rearward axle path to piss protour off.
  • 19 2
 I love this. We will build the Homer-mobile!
  • 4 7
 HAHAHA Homer-mobile, that is awesome!
  • 5 0
 My one and only addition would be a Pinion P1-12 gearbox.
  • 2 2
 can i suggest a straight headtube to allow use of geo adjust type headsets and top tubes long enough so i don't feel the need to ride a large frame at 5 foot 8,
  • 37 1
 Gents,
I am Seb and I am doing the product management for Alutech. I'm responsible for the ICB Project as well, so if you have any request, just send a mail here or to icb@alutech-cycles.com .
Unfortunately we don't have an english page for the ICB, so if you have any question, ask me!
Thanks for all your comments and ideas, this is what makes a community bike so special. And for sure: the bottle cage has been a long and exhausting discussion ....
Cheers and some good trail time in 2016!
Seb
  • 2 0
 Today an english speaking forum was added to the website (that is also available in english)

crowd.bike/en/#forums
  • 36 0
 Pinkbike review of it? I want to see how it handles! Really cool concept, and I hope it works, but the concept is only efficient if the bikes works as promised.
  • 21 0
 I'm still waiting for the Evil Following review! Get in line!
  • 1 1
 Notice that EVil isn't listed as a brand thread like others on the pb menu...
  • 23 0
 It's actually the second of a kind and the first bike has proven the concept to work fine, already.
What the 'very german sounding name ICB2.0' actually means is 'internet community bike 2nd edition'.
By the way, this was the first edition:
fstatic3.mtb-news.de/f/4r/39/4r39tamk3bo3/large_ICB01Rahmen.jpg?0
Happy New Year 2 all of you!
  • 1 6
flag viatch (Jan 1, 2016 at 0:18) (Below Threshold)
 pretty specialized had a say in that, before the fsr patent expired thats why it was canned haha
  • 25 2
 fsr patent didn't extend to Europe because we have sensible patent laws.
  • 14 2
 You mean the U.S. patent system of being able to protect a broad concept without any real technical detail behind it isn't sensible?
  • 5 0
 @mazze That first edition looks sick! Good to see that the internet doesn't screw things up every time hahaha
  • 29 2
 Finally, a bike with nothing to bitch about..
  • 25 8
 No 20mm axle.
  • 25 0
 It's too soon... just wait until the BOOST / No-BOOST, Threaded BB / PF BB, and "does this come in a 26" version?" comments roll in. Very cool concept though. I like it.
  • 5 1
 I think I spoke too soon.

I'm not seeing water bottle mounts. Frown
  • 3 17
flag nordland071285 (Jan 1, 2016 at 0:33) (Below Threshold)
 other than the fact its fugly
  • 12 1
 Of course there was a discussion about the bottle cage mount. However, comparing to other benefits like a working kinematic, a straight seattube, ... that cage mount scored pretty low in importance. So, as often in life, it's a trade-off. (You might be able to fit one of these tinier bottles below the shock, but it's true: Bikepackers and Bottle-carriers wer not the majority of riders
  • 8 3
 @nordland071285

Well, it looks pretty damn good compared to those Orange bikes!
  • 4 3
 i wont disagree with that Smile but remember orange havnt updated their range in years..this is supposed to be new and desirable..
and i assume you're digging at orange purely because of my UK flag? no need to get racial Wink
  • 5 2
 Not because of where you're from, but from the fact that Orange bikes doesn't look good at all. It may ride well and work well for UK conditions, but the looks puts me off. Maybe its time for them to update their bikes.

As for ICB2.0, it looks more desirable to me than what other brands has to offer. It is also new, and with modern geometry. What more can you ask for? Wink
  • 7 2
 Orange bikes ride beautifully. They dont need to look good. When did mtbers turn into such a bunch of fashion obsessed tarts?
  • 4 1
 While I can see the argument for "who cares what it looks like if it works well", we are not talking about frames that cost $300 to build and then sell for a 20% margin. We are talking about frames that cost $300 to build and sell for $3000-$4000. We can argue all day about whether the pricing is fair or not, etc, but I can say this - when I'm paying that much for a frame, it better be EVERYTHING - high-quality, high-performance, high-durability, AND absolutely stunning in appearance.
  • 2 2
 "We are talking about frames that cost $300 to build and sell for $3000-$4000"

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.....
  • 3 2
 ...says the guy who offers no explanation to back up his assertion. I will turn that assertion around on you, sir, since you offered nothing to show that you DO know what you are talking about.

My last five bikes all had frames that retailed for $2999 or more. They were all beautiful frames too.
  • 3 1
 And they cost a shed load more than $300 to produce. I work in the bicycle industry. Margins are tighter on bikes than most other products. There is absolutely no way a frame that costs $300 to produce will be sold for £3000. Generally each set of hands the frame goes through will want to make about a 30% mark up. So lets say a frame starts out at £300 worth of materials. Once you have paid someone a days labour to hammer, grind and weld the thing into an actual frame, heat treat it, re check alignment, paint it, qc it and put on all those fancy stickers/finishes so all the tarts will drool over it, suddenly it has cost the business more like £500/600. so they sell it to a shop for 8/900. Then the shop sells it to you for £1200. I have been extremely generous with the pricings there, most places will run on tighter margins still, and I still got nowhere near the £3000 number you pulled out.

Thing is tho, we could probably push the price of your frame higher still...Lets offer it in 5 different "sexy" paint colours, plus a raw option and a full on TLD custom spray job. Now suddenly everyone has to hold 20 different models in stock instead of 5. This adds to the cost of each frame for the end user as shops have to lay out more cash in the first place. Now lets add a bit of pointless weight to the frame by letting some graphic designer run wild with the crayons, adding gizmos like internal routing, built in storage etc which adds nothing to the performance of the bike, but the tarts like it and we can add hefty chunks to the price tag for it...Still nowhere that £3000 number
  • 2 2
 Ok first, your tone is completely uncalled for. It seems you came here looking for a fight because you read the inconsequential part of my comment and skipped over the part the contained my point.

I'm not talking about how much it costs to take a frame from raw materials to my hands. I'm talking about how much it costs in raw materials, and man hours to build a frame. As you put it, $500-600, even call it $1000, fine. My point still remains. All your talk about all the "hands" and all the people who get their cut is part of my point because it is part of the problem.

And again, the frames I am currently riding cost $2999, and $3299 respectively. That's not "my number". That's retail price.

However, the actual core of my original point was - when i'm paying $3000 for a frame, it better do EVERYTHING - hold up, perform, AND look incredible.

Geez dude, calm down.
  • 3 1
 fair enough. perhaps i coulda been a bit more diplomatic, but hey, this is the internet. "When in Rome...", as they say.

The thing is thoI wasn't glossing over the core of your point. You suggesting a bike can't deserve a high price tag unless it looks pretty is exactly the thing I was disputing. Starting by saying that bike frames do not retail for ten times the total production costs.

All the hands the things go through is not part of the problem. It is part of what used to be a necessary chain to get a bike from the factory to your garage. The internet has now pretty much made that chain unnecessary when purchasing a new bike. As long as you know what you want. Not what you think you want after looking at some pretty pictures and reading some sales waffle, but hopefully what you actually need. And what size you want. And how to build it when it gets there. And then how to set it up. And spot that dodgy freehub seal and get it warrantied, (in the same country you bought it in hopefully). And then sort it out again in a few months when one or two other teething problems pop up. Then maintain the thing for the rest of its life. At least 30% of people on pinkbike probably are capable of all of that. So yeh, the internet has made that chain unnecessary for them. That chain isn't actually a problem for them tho, they can buy cheap bikes online. The problem is so can all the people who have no idea what they want and would quite happily buy a fatbike to ride enduro on or stick a set of Saints on 8 inch rotors on their CX bike. For these people, 90% of their buying decision is based on what they think looks the coolest. Not many internet only companies are going to point out that may be a bad idea, cos they aren't even going to have a chance to ask what you might be using their product for.

My issue with the looks thing however is also related to the cost of bikes. Personally I don't care too much what my bike looks like. I don't look at it while I'm riding it. I do sit and admire it when I'm not. I think its lovely and at least part of it is due to the way it looks. It's not an Orange, but I kinda like the way oranges look. I like the simplicity, unlike some of the weirder designs which look a bit like they melted in the powdercoating oven. But anyway, despite that, looks still don't really come very high on my list of things I care about on my bike. I know some people care about it more than I do and thats cool, but I do have an issue with the fact that often companies take advantage of that fact, to get away with producing poor products and still selling them at high prices. This doesn't really happen much with frames, but it is spreading fast through cycling as a whole, helped massively by direct internet sales. For example there are plenty of extremely pretty pedals out there with reasonably high price tags that I would avoid. If a thing is well designed and well made, it will normally be obvious to the eye when inspected up close. Well made things look prettier in the flesh than in photos. Poorly made pretty stuff tends to look prettier in photos than in real life. The problem arises when something ends up being pretty not because it was made well, but simply because "looking pretty" was top of the list for the designers, followed by a few blingy features they can use as selling points and finally bearing tolerances. The constant demand for pretty bikes will lead to lots of pretty bikes being made, and it suddenly becoming much harder for the people who actually give a crap about alignment and accuracy of manufacture to make a living. So their prices go up. And of course then the guys who only really care about selling a lot of pretty bikes can push their prices up a little too. And even fix a few of the more troublesome tolerance issues they had been having. But as soon as the guys who are trying to make the actual high performance products give up and go back to plumbing, the standards on the pretty stuff will soon drop again. The price won't tho.
  • 26 1
 This is awesome. We need more companies that listen to what the riders want.
  • 9 23
flag IllestT (Dec 31, 2015 at 13:14) (Below Threshold)
 Ever seen the Sampsons episode where Homer designs a car?
  • 13 6
 *ahem, "Simpsons"
  • 45 0
 Ever read the article where they reference that episode?
  • 5 21
flag IllestT (Dec 31, 2015 at 13:26) (Below Threshold)
 No, do tell?
  • 5 1
 if companies listen to all potential customers some average bike will be produced, like in this case. the first internet community biek (also by ALutech) at least hat a horst link
  • 43 1
 I love the Sampsons. That Burt is always getting into mischief.
  • 5 1
 remember itchy and scratchy land, when the gift shop runs out of Bort name badges? haha
  • 3 3
 Nobody is called Bort haha
  • 3 1
 "My son is also called Bort"
  • 3 0
 @jonokonko Henry Ford said they wanted a faster horse.
  • 18 5
 If I designed a bike, it would be super fun to ride all day everyday. It could handle smooth rides, rough rides, long or short! I'd call it "your mom".
  • 6 0
 and it would have a fur saddle
  • 10 0
 " The greatest challenge of all was to make sure that all of the individual decisions would fit together as a whole concept, which is purpose built rather than a wild mix of unrelated ideas. We didn't want the ICB2.0 to end up as the Homer-mobile of mountain bikes! -"

Heh - I read the headline and immediately thought of The Homer, I have another tab open with an image search for it!
  • 15 5
 So to all of you, thinking the bike has too much flex, the damper is going to bend etc...
The bike is build and designed under a lot of input from the Internet Bike Community. But the last word regarding the technical details and the perfection were made by a guy called Stefan Stark. Stefan has an engineer degree and he IS a bike engineer. He is working for different brands and is well known in the german bike branch. Another point of view is that there are people, e.g. Stefanus Stahl, Sebastian Tegtmeier etc. putting their privat money into that project. So believe it or not, they know what they are doing. And they believe in the project. Maybe we see a 29" version in the future, maybe they think about carbon and maybe boost is a future as well.
Besides they all are mountainbikers as well Smile
So please go on and hate, all you fanboys out there. And pretend it cannot work. As long as no one else is able to work out such a good thing in a community, I recommend to wait for pinkbike testing the bike, come to germany and test it on your own ( yes you can test the bike just by give one of the responsible guys a note or a call. What other manufacturer does that?), or simply shut up.

Just my two cents.

Here is a little preview in english, recommended to all of you not able to use bing or google translater...

enduro-mtb.com/en/eurobike-2015-many-cooks-one-bike-the-alutech-icb2-0
  • 9 1
 I think you are being hypersensitive. I'm not really getting the hate vibe, man.
  • 1 0
 So instead of moaning about people moaning could you provide some insight into why a yoke is ok from an engineering perspective. Has anyone tested it on a dyno with a yoke to prove there is no difference. From an interested engineer.
  • 9 0
 the evil following/insurgent are single pivots. single pivots are just fine, if the designers know their kinematics.
  • 2 4
 Hey, I like the agricultural simple ruggedness of single pivot, but imo it just doesn't perform as well as multi pivot designs, like VPP.
  • 1 1
 VPP Pattern is up now so would be better design plus why triple clamp bumpers for 160mm design
  • 2 1
 If you would look closer you would see that these are not bumpers but covers for internal housing. And, suprise, they are made to fit outside lining as well...
  • 1 0
 Yet, plenty of Evil riders say they have never liked VPP on their previously owned Santa Cruz's...can't make everyone happy.
  • 1 0
 i've had both vpp and dw-link. for dh applications....i like the vpp better, very supple and bottomless. for all around trail, the dw-link surprisingly pedaled better, was efficient but never felt harsh, less mid-stroke wallow.
  • 2 0
 This arguing over suspension designs is stupid as it always has been. There is no "best" suspension design. That's why we have all these different designs. Every one of them has drawbacks. My favorite remains FSR, because you can temper it's biggest weakness (pedal-induced bob) using a good damper. However I spent the entirety of this past season without an FSR bike. I was riding a VPP2 bike and a DW-Link bike. I found both to be fantastic. They are "automatic" climbers...with the shock wide open there is no perceptible bob while pedalling seated. That's awesome. However VPP2 is noticeably harsher than FSR while descending with the shock open, and DW-Link has noticeable brake jack (interestingly enough, I was not able to discern any brake-jack on the VPP2 bike, though i'm sure there was some).

Despite all this, both bikes peformed absolutely fantastically and I would highly recommend either to anyone looking for an excellent bike.

For the 2016 season, I have built an FSR trail bike, and beefed up my VPP2 bike for AM/Enduro type riding. So ironically, my better climbing suspension won't see alot of climbing, and my better descending suspension will be doing alot of climbing. Regardless, I have no doubt that i'll find both bikes to be super awesome for their intended applications.
  • 9 3
 I kind of find it funny everyone loves 27.5" especially if you are shorter. The more people i see struggle handling bigger size wheels when riding, i just don't get it.

But humans are adaptable and can get used to almost anything done in repetition. I am going to be desiging a 32" trail bike because it rolls over stuff better than 29". It will only need to be ridden in a straight line though. Oh and there going to be FAT tires too. I will have to consult with ONE UP to make a 52t ring in the back so you can ride it uphill.
  • 7 0
 Check this out, this company is making bikes for really tall people with a wheel size of 36 inches.

dirtysixer.com
  • 8 2
 Good on the crowd, the Bullit is the all time all round bike, but it has been done. Nothing new here but but a lower pivot, yolk and tapered head tube. Great tweeks on an old favourite. I would get one.
  • 5 0
 As the Bike's name ist ICB 2.0 it is the second project fo the German forum already. The first one i.e. ICB 1.0 didn't come out that well. It had a lot of production issues and did not meet the deadline. It was produced by Carver and not Alutech though.
  • 1 0
 What were the issues? The geo on that was mint
  • 2 0
 Misalignments mostly what I remembered. What I read was that the geo seemed very progerssive but it didn't ride that well.
  • 1 0
 I remember people on the local enduro forums were very hyped about it. What was wrong? I assume you can't crowdsource good suspension kinematics since most people have really dumb ideas about it and they are also very comflicting but geo wise? too short or too long tt? Low reach and high stack or the other way around?
  • 2 0
 That's about two years ago, so long reach wasn't the hype at the time. One factor was that the crowd voted for somewhat extreme numbers concerning slack head angle which was super hip at the time: it became somthing like 64.5 and a very low BB. There was very little testing being done with prototypes, I think.

The other thing was Carver who took ages to get the thing produced. They are a entry level brand with no real experience for real mountain bikes. Guess they wanted this project to enter the market and gain credibility. It basically became available when the hype was over again. Once done, they had made very few, didn't send them to the shops and the build quality was awful.

This version 2.0 is a whole different thing. Alutech has made very good bikes before and now much more testing has been done.
  • 3 0
 I do own an ICB 1.0 and yes, it had some delivery issues and even than the quality was ok but not more - this should be solved for the ICB 2.0 because Alutech is now on bord.
But, the ICB 1.0 has an Geometrie that let´s me smile after every ride. It was and is designed as an bike with lots of downhill skills. The ICB 2.0 shall be something like his little brother with a clear focus as a trail bike. I have seen already one of them an the look and production quality is finest!
  • 9 1
 Riders wanted a single pivot?
  • 14 0
 "they discovered that a simple shock-extension or 'yoke' (as seen on many of the bikes from the bigger brands bikes) would be enough to give a single pivot design a suitable amount of anti-squat, a slightly progressive linkage ratio and very little pedal-kick."
Tldr: They found a way to make a single pivot work well and didnt want to make it too complicated
  • 3 2
 They don't mention braking... IMO the make or break for single pivot designs, some of them get real nasty when you're braking over anything harsher than groomed trail.
  • 1 0
 I was a little surprised.
  • 7 0
 Braking on most modern SP bikes is fine. Back them old days you had a bike with three chainrings that did some crazy stuff to chain growth as you went up and down them. Newer bikes looking at one or two chainrings can put the pivot in a much more neutral position for less bouncing under brakes and pedaling.
  • 3 1
 Thanks for spreading the info...I've been aware of the advances allowing for a better single pivot design (owned, serviced, and ridden them all). But, I'm still asking, how many would request a single-pivot design? The rest of the frame looks, great!
  • 3 2
 Single pivot was great in it's day, but doesn't really compare to newer designs like VPP. Had a Heckler, Bullit, and Foes FXR, none climbed or descended as well as my VP-Free.
  • 7 0
 interesting read on that topic: www.santacruzbicycles.com/en/us/news/344

"[...] So, the endpoint of your 5-inch travel bike can be anywhere from no chain growth to 20mm of chain growth. When you combine that with the fact that any effect in compression has an opposing effect in rebound, there aren't many legitimate options from the bottom to the top in that range. Not enough that it's really going to mean the difference between a good bike and a crappy bike. Or that something "pedals great" or "is neutral under braking" - whatever that means. That's bogus. It's what marketing guys, get paid to do: Make up a simple, believable reason why a product is superior. And then repeat those reasons over and over until they become accepted as common knowledge despite the lack of real justification."
  • 1 0
 Huh. What he says makes sense. I'm curious how he'd analyze something like a split pivot. Seems like he'd say that it's just a single-pivot with marketing strapped to it. (even if he didn't work for SC.) but at the same time, he'd probably say that it doesn't matter for a single ring bike, & that the amount of pivots is the least important part of how it rides. I know I've been impressed by the Devinicis, Salsas, & Treks I've ridden enough to know my next bike will be one of them(though obviously not a Salsa since I'm looking for a 6" bike.)

The other points that it brings up is that probably the best suspension performance would be a bike designed from the ground up around a specific, single chainring size. Closest we've probably had to that would be DH bikes.
  • 2 0
 the ICB is also designed around a specific chain ring size, we thought 30t would be the best for a 27,5" trailbike, so the kinematic is optimized for this size. yes we have an E-type FD mount, some user insisted on this.... maybe its good for a chainguide;-)
  • 1 0
 @highway: I'm a little surprised that article is still on the Santa Cruz page, since it basically says that axle path doesn't matter and everything else is only marketing.. yet, somehow the single pivot bikes just recently simply disappeared from the SC lineup. Not a consequence of the new ownership, I hope...
  • 1 0
 @FuzzyL well, the article is from 2012, not sure if he'd be able to write it today, with them getting rid of their SP bikes. That article is the first in a series, & in the one on shock rates, he does his professional duty & touts VPP pretty heavily: www.santacruzbicycles.com/en/us/news/348
  • 1 0
 @AluSeb It's really, really cool to hear somebody come out & say what exact tooth count the suspension was designed around, as everybody seems to want to keep that a secret because they're afraid that people won't buy their frame if the tooth count doesn't match what they ride. Really wish I had a chance in hell of test riding one of these bikes now, lol.
  • 3 0
 there are no secrets, it's a community bike! all datas, curves, calculations etc are public, unfortunately only in german language. this is part of the story, all actions are transparent and will be discussed and presented public. only the final price calculation is secret, we want to keep some of our business friends.. i spoke with the team, we will have an english FAQ and discussion platform very soon on www.crowd.bike ! seb
  • 8 0
 I love you too pinkbike staff Wink
  • 4 0
 You Just know that if pinkbike comments designed a bike it would be 160mm travel 26 wheels with a slack front end low bb and short as chainstays 20mm front axle and 12x135 rear but most importantly it would look like a trek session
  • 3 0
 If I recall a bunch of members here years ago were trying to crowd source the"Pink Fork" was an amazing thread with a wealth of knowledge and some skilled individuals. This was before crowd sourcing was even a term I believe. What happened? Forgot till now.
  • 8 0
 Good memory, that was X-fusion who started the thread, they stated they were putting their new fork in the peoples hands and wanted our suggestions, however they took absolutely none of it on board and came out with a 32mm stanchion 15mm axle fork for 27.5" wheels just the same as every other fork out there.

I guess the first step for making an idea like this work is being sincere, not just using it as a free marketing scam and actually respecting the ideas of the community, not disregarding all of their input and remaining a bottom tier company as a result... Loads of respect for Alutech for not being too proud to take on others feedback!
  • 2 0
 We might be talking about two different projects. The one I'm referring to was going to be entirely produced by different members. Was gonna be a USD triple clamp fork that had different assemblies being produced by the different members with the ability to do so and it was going to have open plans for everyone that wanted to produce there own. Possible I'm getting old (35) and starting to develop CRS
  • 6 2
 "you can have the frame in a raw finish for an additional €100"

Why is a crowd designed frame MORE expensive when LESS goes into making it? Correct me if I'm wrong but skipping ano should mean cheaper no???
  • 1 0
 Design yes but I imagine build cost no. The big corporations have that by the balls ????
  • 8 0
 That actually is not true. Raw-Finish is 100€ cheaper, 1399 instead of 1499

alutech-cycles.com/ICB20
  • 1 0
 Lol you're right, someone please edit the article
  • 1 0
 Ah article misshaps. I was really thinking with logic like that there's no way the company could go far...
  • 4 1
 The bike liiks nice.
I would habe put an oval internally head tube in an made custom headset cups to allow for an angleset or reach adjust headset to be fitted without fear of misalignment or rotation when in use.
Wheelbase adjustment.
How about integrating the outer tube of a dropper into the seat tube to save weight also (I know this would add cost due to machining tolerances)
Then those bottle cage mounts.
Then the tools mounts.

I could not design a frame...the requirements list would be too long. Haha.
  • 6 0
 Nice to see a threaded BB! Voted by the users of course!
  • 3 0
 Ha, and no boost, again voted for by the users! ;-)
  • 5 0
 99 percent of it is the rider, we don't need another bike, tire size etc. Except road biking, thats all bike, no talent.
  • 3 1
 Hey guys I'm reading the comments here and laughing. So I'm going to throw out here what I ride on a daily basis for you all to heckle over. I've been riding seriously since 2012 when I discovered this awesome sport. I'm a middle aged guy with a family and all the obligations that go with it. So.... My bike budget isn't unlimited. I have an old Cannondale 26" HT and an old Cannondale Raven that I built up in 2014. The frame was NOS from a friend who used to race for Cannondale. I put all modern components on it. A lefty max fork which slackened the head angle to 68.5", Mavic EN 821 rims Hope, and I9 hubs, Hope brakes, Thomson elite dropper, race face Turbine crank, XTR 2x10 derailuers and shifters, Risse racing shock,etc. 26" wheels obviously. I live and ride in SE Pennsylvania. It's rocky and technical here. This bike has proven to be an excellent trail bike and has taught me how to ride. I blow through lots of gnar on it on a regular basis. I took it to MBO in 2014 and ride it out there on Heckletooth ridge. No injuries, and I was a very inexperienced rider back then. My bike handling skills are good enough that when I went downhilling last summer with a bunch of friends I was able to ride black diamond trails in spite of the fact that it was my first time on a downhill bike! So there ya go. Yes I drool over all the modern stuff too and I would love to see what an updated ride with slack geo feels like. But.. Kids need clothes and food and I'm out riding the trails with every one else. No problem. Peace, enjoy the ride.
  • 7 1
 What
  • 33 0
 I don't see the bottle opener i suggested
  • 4 0
 Seen this growing on various sites for a while, a brilliant and innovative step forward. Well done Alutech!
  • 7 2
 Where am I going to put my bottle cage??
  • 16 1
 I think you have to carry it in your camelbak.
  • 3 0
 that's an awesome way to do a project and the bike really looks to have benefited from the input. great geo there!! I would ride one of those!
  • 5 0
 It looks like a rune and a process had a baby...
  • 2 0
 I agree, especially if you compare the numbers. Process...you ARE the father! That being said I own a process and the geo is spot on so...I imagine this bike would be pretty sweet.
  • 3 0
 I don't know if it's the first crowdsourced bike, Pinkbike. Why would your headline ask me that? You're supposed to be the experts.
  • 1 0
 Erdgeschoss (ground floor) build stickers at 2700 euros, including 19% sales tax. At current exchange rates (and taking out the tax), that's under $2,500 for a build including like rc, monarch, Reverb, GX1, and Guide RS brakes. Single oivot 150mm trail bikes with that kind of kit are rare. The Heckler used to be available with that sort of build (but is offline, pending the new model). Process 153 is single Pivot, and with a comparable spec is about $1,000 more. And these guys are going through LBSs rather than direct.

Designing a bike like this will not be cheaper than the manufacturer doing it in-house - they still have to spend a bunch of engineering and design time, and if my experience in software is any indication, then the overhead involved with a project like this would be considerable and more than outweigh the pearls (like the high end engineer in the community donating a really sweet solution to a particular problem). So how does this pencil out for the manufacturer? Honestly curious about that.
  • 1 0
 If think that it's absolutely amazing that they did it for second time. Think how much time they spent reading all the posts and gathering informations between gibberish. Frame looks good and I like lack of bottle cage mounts. The one and only thing thats is not so cool for Central and Eastern Europe is price. You guys did a GREAT job. Again. Congrats!
  • 1 0
 I love all about this bike! The only thing is that it doesn't accept a brake rotor smaller than 180mm. And that for a bike that, according to the note on their geometry chart, shouldn't be jumped higher than 61cm/2ft. It is not necessarily related but I suppose a trail with all jumps smaller than 2ft won't really require a 180mm rear rotor, does it? I love the low standover and I somehow like single pivot designs and a continuous seat tube. I know dropper posts (and bottle cages) are all the hype nowadays but I just drop the saddle when I enter the trail and raise it again when I ride back home. Being able to do that on the fly would be overkill, but a long straight seattube is important there. Glad they have the raw option, especially as anodizing apparently costs 100 euros!

I also appreciate this crowd design concept. Seems a cool way of doing things. Didn't Banshee (Mythic for the Brits) also do something similar with their Legend downhill bike or did they design the bike themselves and merely accepted design requirements from the crowd?
  • 1 0
 Great way to design a ride! Only sad part is the material that won't take the beating more than some years before stress breaking it apart. I have had 3 alu frames (SC Nomad, Sinister Splinter and Gary Fisher Hifi) giving up, 2 of them by stress fracture (Splinter was shit from the start), and the next will be either carbon or steel. Allthough with the current amount of riding what ever aluframe would probably last onto my future son...
  • 2 0
 Looks pretty sweet. I'd buy one if I had money to burn, but I don't. I have always been a fan of single pivots for their lateral stiffness, and less bearings to maintain...
  • 8 4
 26"! Yuppies can suck it.
  • 5 3
 26ers started it all.
  • 3 1
 I am in agreement here.
  • 2 1
 this was the first internet community bike, also by Alutech
it had 26 wheels. later it was updated to fit 650b wheels
www.mtb-news.de/news/2012/08/29/eurobike-2012-das-carver-icb-1-steht-auf-eigenen-raedern
  • 5 1
 A camel is a horse designed by committee.
  • 3 1
 And like a camel, there doesn't appear to be room for a full size water bottle inside the front triangle
  • 2 1
 So many passionate and dedicated people have come up with a solid bike and agreed on the things that are important to them, yet everyone here is still complaining about the smaller bits and pieces. wow.
  • 3 0
 There is actually not much complaining going on.
  • 1 0
 Bikes should have individuality. Then it makes sense to have so many bikes to choose from. There is no perfect bike for every one. I like choice . I have respect for people to try new ideas.The variety is what is fun.
  • 2 0
 Hi,
if you need some more information in english or if hav questions, please find our english speaking FAQ and Forum here:
crowd.bike/en/#forums
  • 1 0
 Cool concept. I don't know near enough about product development to say if this is an effective method for making a bike or not, but definitely a cool way of doing things.
  • 2 1
 I clicked on link but is German and I can't understand a word is written. Well only those that are in English, like Bike, community.
  • 4 0
 (maybe that's german too)
  • 1 0
 Fahrrad. Don't know community in German
  • 5 2
 Do they really charge extra to not anodize it? lol
  • 11 0
 On the Alutech website it says that the raw version costs 100 EUR less, so I guess that's a mistake in the article.
  • 5 2
 "As future proof as possible" "no boost"

Uhhhhh...
  • 7 1
 That's the way 'bikers' want it, same as this forum there're not many fans of boost....
  • 1 0
 A simple redesign of the rear triangle could solve that issue. Personally I feel like any 275 bike these days should fit a 3.0 tire.
  • 2 0
 Looks like a.... Fun ride. Would love to give one a go. Would handle most the terrain around here like a champ
  • 3 2
 That single pivot yoke arrangement looks flexy as fuck. Leverage ratio control isn't the only reason to use a linkage on your single pivot design.
  • 1 0
 I am thinking along the same lines here.
  • 2 0
 Can't wait until my frame arrives. Has been an awesome project and I can't wait for the next one!
  • 1 0
 Looks kind of like my Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail, which rips(and comes in 26") Should be a fun bike. Single pivots will never die.
  • 1 0
 Looks good to me, simple/durable/good trail bike angles...
Plus RAW aluminium option is cool (#transition please bring back the raw tr500!)
  • 1 0
 Well done boys and girls, can't wait to hear how it goes in the wide world of trail riding, from those who actually own one..
  • 1 0
 It looks really good, except for the tall seat tube protrusion, in my opinion. The head tube connection point looks very good, and strong.
  • 1 2
 The design is all good and that, but you missed a perfect opportunity to make this a "one bike for all people".
With the inclusion of a concentric BB and concentric single pivot you will be able to meet the needs of all buyers.
With slotted rear axil you'll provide room for 29" wheels and the width for Plus tires.
You now have a bike that any trail / Enduro rider could live happily without them wishing they bought something else.

Your welcome.
  • 1 0
 but first was icb 1 . few years ago www.pinkbike.com/photo/11829977 made by carver. real enduro bike front 170mm, rear 170(150) mm and 65-66 head angle
  • 1 0
 you are right, but idea and people behind the ICB Project have been the same! just the industry partner has changed!
  • 2 0
 I was about to lose my mind if it had a pressfit BB.
  • 3 6
 But pressfits are so much better...
  • 3 0
 How can you win #Enduro when your competitors have 4.4% bigger wheels and 2.37% stiffer bottom bracket junctions!
  • 2 0
 Looks cool. Frame construction looks top notch. Will PB get one to test?
  • 2 3
 I have no engineering degree but to me that rear triangle looks like it wouldhave a lot of flex. I love the look but I wouldn't purchase solely based on the fact that I'm scared I'd snap that rear triangle
  • 14 2
 "I have no engineering degree"
That's it. Believe me it is stiff and well engineered
  • 6 0
 Holy shit I laughed at that reply.
  • 2 1
 You are welcome...
  • 2 0
 Travel? Wheelsize? Weights? Prices? Warranty?
  • 5 0
 130mm, 650B, about 2,8 kg without shock, 1500€, 2Y
  • 1 0
 Thanks
  • 2 1
 I want it to be durable and descend like a v10 and climb like my lapierre xc bike, and cost a dollar. Done.
  • 3 1
 and why can't we have standard derailleur hangers.
  • 1 0
 Looks like my Guerrilla Gravity, sweet single pivot that rips and you can get in 26" too. Should be fun.
  • 2 1
 I like the concept of a crowd funded bike, but seriously, no bottle cage mounts?
  • 2 0
 Pretty sure this is how AMC ended up designing the Pacer
  • 2 0
 Optimized . 30% less weight. Said the sales man in the fancy suit.
  • 1 0
 I want to buy one just to support the idea! That's awesome, a bike for the riders. Nice work.
  • 1 0
 Shame they didn't design a website in English at the same time so I can order the thing.
  • 1 0
 if you have any question, just email me! We ship world wide, except the States! Sorry for this!
  • 2 0
 I LIKE THIS!!
  • 2 0
 looks great
  • 4 4
 the shock mount is not cool at all...will bend shocks like the specialized demo 8
  • 2 1
 I was thinking that too. A rocker link makes more sense to me.
  • 2 1
 I expect Alutech will do a better job of alignment than Spesh did, it's a standard mount too so the shock can move a little, not that weird tetris block things Spesh use.
  • 2 1
 it's not the first but the second internet community bike
  • 2 1
 It actually looks good and balanced.
  • 1 0
 Sweet looking 2003 Titus LocoMoto
  • 1 2
 I would want a 27.5 in back and 29er in front just to hear everyone with a 26 bitch....like always on pink bike happy new year
  • 2 1
 if it was my design im sure everyone would say it looks like a session
  • 1 0
 You look like a Session Wink
  • 1 0
 Beautiful bike. Nice execution!
  • 1 0
 Carver ICB 1 wasn't THE FIRST ONE ?
  • 1 0
 Carver ICB was the first official community bike, but two years befor, the community already supported Alutech to develop the "Fanes". at this time the Fanes was outstanding, one of the first longtravel bikes you could easily use for touring.
  • 1 0
 Dont care if it rides like like total garbage, she's sexy!
  • 3 2
 Looks like a Process
  • 1 0
 Looks like a Ripley
  • 2 1
 cough cough kona process
  • 4 4
 650b, single pivot, yolk, and fox suspension. no thanks.
  • 2 2
 this was the first internet community bike, also by Alutech
it had 26 wheels, looked way better, had a horst link and later it was updated to fit 650b wheels
www.mtb-news.de/news/2012/08/29/eurobike-2012-das-carver-icb-1-steht-auf-eigenen-raedern
  • 12 12
 26" version?
  • 2 3
 26wurx .com
  • 3 3
 Looks flexy.
  • 2 3
 Looks like the yolk is going to hit the top tube. Just don't look right.
  • 2 3
 Thing is. People are stupid. No bottle mounts inside frame #fail
  • 1 1
 No, it is very clever. If you put bottle mounts in there you're going to have to deal with people who damaged frame/shock/both (or just the bottle) by placing a bottle and bottle cage there even though there is clearly no room for that.

See, there are loads of frames out there nowadays with enough room for a bottle at the expense of reduced standover or such a curved downtube. It may be great for some and they are already being catered for. Apparently others including me love a low standover (or at least the yet unnamed difference between standover and BB height) as it makes it so much more fun riding the tight stuff. I also don't really like those very curved downtubes, but obviously that's purely visual and definitely a compromise for someone who'd love to ride with a bottle. Personally I prefer a camelbak (or the like) over a bottle. If you don't already lose it over the bumpy stuff (would hate to walk back up just the fetch it) it could get pretty messy. Also I could probably only drink from a bottle either riding sat down or just having stopped for a break. Last but not least, as your arms and legs are your main suspension, moving weight (water and tools) from the bike to your body reduces the unsprung mass. Reducing unsprung mass by 1kg (full bottle and tools) is massive and should definitely be noticable.
  • 2 0
 Horses for courses @vinay I come from a DH background, now mostly riding trail bikes so it seems much more natural for me (and plenty more folk I know) to ride without a pack because it helps you move around more on the bike. My rides are generally 2 hours, I carry a 500ml bottle so its only a half kilo or 1lb thats added to the bike. Bikes are way light enough already to accommodate an extra lb of water. And surprisingly, there are less frames that achieve a good standover and allow for a bottle - what I'm saying is I'd like both without having to resort to an 'under the downtube' option like the Kona Process bikes
  • 1 0
 Alright then, the bike is not suitable for someone who prefers a bottle over a camelbak. I wouldn't call the designers stupid, they just cater for a different market. Most trail bikes nowadays still allow for a bottle so I have no doubt you still have enough to choose from even if this bike and the Kona Process don't qualify.

Funny thing in this conversation is that I also like to move around on the bike hence what I want the low standover for. That's what actually allows you to move around. The lighter the bike and the heavier the rider, the more effect moving around actually has provided you're strong enough of course. That's what might put people off the backpack, that they feel being weigh down by the pack so that they are slow moving around. But that's a strength issue, stronger heavier people can move around just fine. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm stronger than you but I'm trying to interpret your statement. I'm not particularly heavy so having some extra weight on my back indeed makes me feel like I have a little more power over my bike (which in turn isn't particularly light).

Obviously lighter frames have become available but at a steep price. Another interesting development is that waterpacks have either been designed for better ventilation and stay in place a little better or even completely integrated in the protection vest. I agree it isn't for everyone but so isn't a bottle. Hence so can't this bike but is definitely suitable for quite a few.
  • 1 0
 who the fk uses a protection vest on an xc ride?
  • 1 0
 It's drifting a bit off topic here as I merely mentioned the vest as an alternative if the camelbak still doesn't stay in place well enough. I won't get into the nomenclature of what xc is exactly but I do believe that a bike with a 66.5deg head angle, 130mm travel rear and 150mm in the front can be ridden in places and in a manner where some back protection could make sense.
  • 1 0
 true

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