Old Rampage Site For Sale For Oil and Gas

Jan 17, 2017 at 13:20
by Pinkbike Staff  
In an unexpected and surprising announcement, a proposal out of the St. George office of the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in the United States has come to light, offering the sale of two oil and gas leases on parcels of land that include the original Rampage event site.

Cam McCaul 2013 RedBull Rampage in Virgin Utah

Local residents are concerned about the proposal, given its proximity to the town of Virgin and of course, Zion National Park, which sees over four million visiting tourists every year who arrive to take in the unique landscape.

Former Chairman of the Virgin Planning and Zoning Commission and a town resident, Steve Masefield, said in a discussion with the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, “drilling on these leases would not only degrade the scenic vistas enjoyed by visitors driving to Zion. Nearby rural neighborhoods would be devastated by industrial smells, noise, lighting, and traffic. Our water—and the water used by communities downstream—could be polluted.”

Red Bull Rampage site - Image from SUWA provided photography.

Louise Excell, a lifetime resident and former owner of several tourism and hospitality businesses said that she, “cannot imagine how visitors will feel as they discover pump jacks and flares from oil and gas drilling are visible from both inside and outside the park. Not only will the sight be jarring for visitors and residents, but other important natural resources and quality of life will be affected, including diminished air quality, loss of natural soundscapes, and night skies.”

Update: We reached out to BLM and their representative had this to say:

"After multiple years of interest by the nominator in relation to these specific parcels, the Bureau of Land Management initiated the process, which includes an environmental assessment and seeking public input, to determine if these leases will be offered or not, and to determine if the stipulations are sufficient to protect the resources. If they are not, the parcels will be deferred until the resource management plan can be amended. We have notified and tried to work with the Park Service throughout this process and will continue to do so.

It should be noted that the final Notice of Competitive Lease Sale has not been finalized and that this is just the leasing stage. Additional NEPA will have to be conducted before any potential surface-disturbing activities can begin.

The draft Environmental Assessment that is out for comment considers recreation and mountain biking, specifically noting the Flying Monkey mountain bike trail. Once the comment period ends in February, the comments will be analyzed and the final report completed. The sale is expected to occur in June."


The original Rampage site is the location of a number of ground-breaking milestones in the world of mountain bikes. It was the location that first launched the sport in front of millions of people the world over. The site under threat also includes the popular Flying Monkey trail among others, and if this sale were to go through after all of the necessary processes have been dealt with, this trail as well others in the area could be negatively affected, or worse, lost.

Cam Zink's 360 Off the Oakley Icon Sender


There is a 30 day comment period open to the public, through February 10, 2017, for those that wish to voice their opposition to the proposal. More information for this can be found here. The sale of the lease is scheduled for June 2017.


415 Comments

  • + 627
 All because of E-bikes. A guy was spotted running a Haibike on Di2. He tried the Canyon gap, had waaay too little speed and did a dead sailor head first into the bottom of the chasm. Fckr went into the ground like a fricking dart. When they started digging him up they found oil...
  • + 94
 this^
his Di2 wasnt set up properly and it downshifted on the run up
  • + 238
 i wish i could be as drunk as you seem to be all the time waki.
  • - 212
flag angrynipples (Jan 17, 2017 at 15:30) (Below Threshold)
 Waki what are you even talking about? The canyon gap is over at the old new site, not the original site that's being sold.
  • + 134
 @angrynipples: you Sir are blind to humour.
  • + 214
 @ratedgg13: welp. I'm an idiot
  • + 88
 @angrynipples: at least you realized and acknowledged it!
  • + 131
 Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed
Poor biker man barely kept his family fed
Overshot a jump and broke his top tube
And up through the ground come a bubbling crude
(Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea)
  • + 26
 Alright waki, this one's funny! The new standard though I am holding you too.
  • + 37
 @StackingItSince1991:

HAHA CLAMPETT YOUTH 4 LYFE!


.....so they loaded up the truck and they to moved to Bee-Cee.
Whistler, that is.... swimmin holes and cougar bars.
  • + 8
 @ratedgg13: Well his name is angrynipples...
  • - 34
flag scott-townes (Jan 17, 2017 at 20:47) (Below Threshold)
 This story is great except Waki got the sites mixed up.... That's almost as embarrassing as the dude who came up short on the canyon gap with an e-bike.
  • - 2
 OK, I have to say I have probably read hundreds of your posts and enjoyed 62.4% of them. 42.3% of them I didn't even understand. But this is my favorite, although you left out that it was a 29er that looked like a Session.

Seriously, folks, if you are going to ride your bike all the way from your house to go visit this area, complain. If you are going to drive, you only have yourself to blame for any reduction in enjoyment. There's a process they will have to go through and, if they are allowed to drill, I am sure they will be required to minimize the local impact. Remember, the evil corporations don't exist unless WE don't demand their product. I don't care if you ride your bike to work down the block, that has minimal impact. This place is remote, there's no way anyone sees it without figuring out a way to get there.

That said, there's still hope for us. Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are now available in SoCal with fueling stations!
  • + 23
 @TenBeers: " I am sure they will be required to minimize the local impact." Yeah OK, because that's worked amazingly well in the past. And yes they (oil corporations) don't exist if you don't demand their product but when there's no viable/affordable alternative, that changes things a bit than say a choice between which toothpaste you prefer. Its not an excuse to allow the corporations to operate wherever they want and to accept that blindly. We have enough oil, this is not out of necessity which you don't mention. The place is remote but its very close to a major waterway that's essential to many and that alone is very concerning but being from Missouri, I don't blame you for not knowing the area and thinking its remote with zero risk.
  • + 32
 @scott-townes: I am embarrassed by your revelation. I know. Sometimes we all come up short. But it is about not giving up - it's about progression, pushing the boundaries of trolling.
  • + 11
 @WAKIdesigns: ...aaaand the old Waki's back.
  • + 2
 @twelve02: in my defense it was that part of the day... I was high lol. Sober me isn't that surprised a joke that obvious went over my head.
  • + 30
 @jmartinbiking: Blame the russians, they hacked the Di2 moments before the downshift.
  • + 27
 Sadly this about exactly the response I expected on PB. It seems more poeple are interested in stupid commentary then spending 15 minutes to send in a comment to the BLM which could actually help defend this area. The townspeople don't seem to want the drilling, visiting bikers will lose trails, and the drilling stations could be within earshot of a very cool National Park, and nobody here seems to care. bummer.
  • + 10
 @the-gringo: if you point me to the bike site where people will care more than on PB I will be grateful. It's not a problem of Pinkbike, it's a problem of reliance of human race on oil, US in mother fricking particular. So I'm not getting your high moral stand. I'm sick of people bitchin on Pinkbike for stupid comments, just because it is the site that sticks out most.

I know one site: The official forum of Church of Scientology. They will listen to you like no one else.
  • + 4
 @adrennan: try harder, but multi-drug adiction is the way.

Again, a nice name foro a super Hero: POLITOXIC-O-MAN
  • + 7
 Imagine someone starting a Kickstarter to buy this land and make it a legal mtb paradise...
  • + 1
 Wakidesigns caused the man to think he could make it, he got inspired by waki!!! Lol
  • + 3
 Hi Waki, thanks, love your stuff!
Perhaps with your following you could make a bigger difference than me by posting something relating to this to encourage divestment:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/23/a-beginners-guide-to-fossil-fuel-divestment
  • + 47
 @Leggsington: No1. I don't have any bigger following. No2. When it comes to issues like this I try to change my patterns of behavior, not evangelize others. No3. Evangelizing others is a hard job. It is easy to say that companies should stop investing money in fossil fuels, when most of the stuff you eat is coming from agriculture which uses lots of oil to grow sht. Even the organic, gluten free, pesticide free sht. When growing food Someone has to move lots of stuff somehow. If you want a start a petition for farmers to use horses, then good luck. How would you deliver fodder to these horses anyways? Then you use lots of fossil fuels to warm your house, (to build your that fricking house in the first place) to make sure water runs in it (pump stations don't run on collective guilt of Facebook justice warriors). Then you have to get to work somehow. Food has to be somehow delivered to the shop you buy it from. Arranging a DH world Cup, making sick video, making bike and bike parts - all of it uses lots of fossil fuel. And by the way electric cars/ trucks/ combains/ using horses and mules for agriculture don't solve much:

A fact everyone should acknowledge: physics - moving one thing from one place to another requires similar amounts of energy. By going electric you move the problem elsewhere. Yes there are inefficiencies of certain means of transport over another, yes it will be cleaner air in city centers, but we live in a closed system called planet Earth. It will mean more power plants. Batteries, harnessing solar, wind power requires using complex chemicals, creating new challenges. The problem with fkng Greenies is, that they broadcast so much anger and bullsht that it repells many people and causes counter reaction, and their preaching makes them inefficient themselves. They spread that bullsht as if going eco will make us better. No it will make it all different. Their political agenda avoids the main issue: our quality of life must go down. It's a freaking fact. Life style everyone loves has to decrease in quality. Diesel cars in Paris are not the real problem. Cars themselves are the problem. Using a 1.5 ton object from one point to another. Can we get rid of cars? Aren't we using public transport in Europe? Aren't we good at it? Same in China. A house is a problem, it doesn't matter if it's warmed up by wood in fireplace or with heat pump, algae and compost (whatever hippie sht you can come up with). Should we all live in large scale housing? There are no simple solutions like cutting this and changing to that over night.

Pain is inevitable, it is a part of life. We can try to make it better, one step at a time and in fact we are doing it. I am sick of greenie agitation. People don't want oil drilling on Rampage site, but they do want to drive their cars, they do like sick edits wth big trucks shuttling bikes. For fks sake.

Signed: ex greenie, tired of evangelizing people straight out of his arse.
  • + 14
 @the-gringo: I'm getting a petition started and will be attending a committee meeting next week in Salt Lake to bring it up with the state legislature. We're going to fight this. Once the petition is up and running I'll post it here
  • - 6
flag skelldify (Jan 18, 2017 at 6:39) (Below Threshold)
 Stupid comment for a such a serious topic. I ashamed to see that it got so many upvotes.
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: Bravo!!! Great points. Life is about trade-offs, not magic solutions
  • + 3
 @hamncheez: the best things I learned from various people on Joe Rogan Experience podcasts: change the world by changing yourself. Inform others instead of evangelizing them. Earth is not flat.
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: In the time you took to write that I wrote a mail to the BLM to help protect some MTB trails.

Which action do you think was more worthwhile?
  • + 0
 @the-gringo: the action to say that this is a part of a greater problem. Thank you.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: @owlie: I think you are missing on point. Capitalism is driven by two things. Greed and desire. You can't change the greed in people, but you can affect ones desire. We can either do our little things by trying to be conscious about our environmental footprint and try to minimise it, but we can also try to influence public opinion and therefore change the desire. By doing so, we can manipulate the greed.
We do this all the time and by caning our habits and desires we can influence capitalism. We can do this quietly for ourselves, or we can talk to people. But I agree that we should leave the evangelists out of it. Facts should be sufficient.
  • + 2
 @mitochris: So government is not run by greed?
  • + 1
 logged in to up vote this
  • + 3
 @scott-townes: "We have enough oil"

Were you actually being SERIOUS when you wrote this?

I mean - REALLY?
  • + 4
 @TenBeers: " Remember, the evil corporations don't exist unless WE don't demand their product"

Just as true of e-bikes, of course...

(I'd have made the jump on mine...)
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Jan 18, 2017 at 10:29) (Below Threshold)
 @KeithReeder: Do we have too little oil? Feed me with your data. Amounts produced, amounts consumed, amounts left and most importantly time frames Big Grin
  • + 7
 What a lot of words for someone who "doesn't evangelize"...
  • + 2
 @the-gringo: Serious question - why should folk who don't live in the US care about this?

We have our own shit to deal with.
  • + 3
 @the-gringo: Here is the problem with public land is that its owned by everyone, so whatever its used for has to have a utilitarian benefit. I haven't seen the economic impact report (if there is one), but what if the benefit for new jobs, economic growth, etc, far outshines the reduction in tourism? To hell with those guys because they aren't bikers? Many would argue that income/jobs should take priority over recreation, since you need income to recreate.

I'm not necessarily taking sides, I'm just trying to say its a lot more complicated than just "industry bad, tourism good"
  • + 3
 @scott-townes: You missed the point of my comment. I wasn't implying that because it is remote there is zero risk. I was stating the fact that for the majority of the riding community, riding this area would require a long drive in a car that burns the fuel they would be drilling for. It's called irony. I currently live in Missouri but I am not from Missouri. I am familiar with the area, but certainly not an expert. Assuming my level of knowledge based on where I live is like assuming that this is a done deal and the oil companies will ruin the area.

This is just the start of the process, and the concerns of the community as well as the environmental concerns of being near a waterway will be taken into account in any approvals and subsequent plans. I think it is good to get the word out so people can voice their concerns, and I am certainly not in favor of them drilling there.

But again, I have to point out the irony . . .
  • + 0
 @hamncheez: did I say something otherwise? Government greed is power and that you can feed with expressing your desires.
  • + 0
 @mitochris: As soon as someone mentions greed and desire I see people in Church talking about sins... or George W Bush talking about necessity of fighting evil. Bulllsht! Corporation is the most natural function of finance economy. Once sht gets so big, the individual interest ceases to exist. Even CEO can't do what he likes. Everything becomes an average of all interests for one purpose: profit. WHat leftists don't say is: and for the benefit of millions of regular people.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns @mitochris : what is the difference between a large corporation and a government?

Both are made of up many individuals all seeking their own best interest, not the interest of the organization they are a part of, be it a government or large corporation.
  • - 1
 @hamncheez: yes. Just like every organization that is large enough it cannot be consciously directed in any clear direction by anyone because there are too many individual interests to be dealt with in decision taking process. I am in the process of drawing an office building for 1000+ employees. We do not take the best decisions we can. We purposefully go for some sht solutions that are simply an effect of trying satisfy both short and long term goals. If we were all to make our best, nobody would ever move in, because renovation (it's an existing building) would take at least 6 months more, and company moving in wouldn't wait that long. It is hard to understand for idealistic employees at our office. But only because they don't have the access to the full information. Interesting isn't it?
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I am not saying that corporations are by default bad. I am saying that one can direct how they do their business. Public opinion is extraordinarily important to them. And i disagree that large corporations cannot be steered.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: I don't disagree, but you are saying it as if it is a bad thing. I disagree with the libertarian sentiment there should be no government, becasue the markets will sort it out. Maybe (and only maybe) in the long run, but tell that to the families poisoned by chemical leaks or killed by unsafe products. Libertarian politics requires reactions to events that happened. It can only respond and therefore is based on that fear of being sued will protect the individual. But A) this might take years to solve, and B) how can an individual fight against a multimillion cooperation? I am all for sensible regulations. However, what is sensible, is often debatable.
  • + 2
 @mitochris: You bring up great points. I would counter that if you measure things like chemical spills, air pollution, etc you will find that historically governments have been worse abusers than any group of private companies in a given industry. Taxation and exclusion allows government agencies to become much larger than private industry, so their capacity for damage is also much higher. The the example of the EPA. While it has done a lot of good in reducing air pollution, the ethanol mandates alone have caused more air pollution than all of the benefit it created with its other regulations. Also, if the EPA is in the wrong but the little guy is in the right, what chance does a small citizen have against the full power of the EPA? For instance, there are ranchers in the West who build watering ponds for their cattle, following all existing regulations. The EPA still determined that the ponds were illegal, even though they were on private land. The small ranchers don't stand a chance.

Libertarianism doesn't say that life is perfect with limited/no government, only that overall less government and more competition will product better outcomes.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: That kind of thinking is part of economics called Game Theory. You try and measure statistical outcomes of how people behave in the aggregate when given incomplete information, then build mathematical models and assign probabilities to person 1 choosing option A or B, given what he thinks person 2 will choose. You then have to assign probability to how person 2 will behave, given what person 2 can predict about person 1. Its obviously much more complex than that, and involves tons of linear algebra and econometrics, but it is fascinating! It was the most interesting part of my Economics degree.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: I would disagree that governments are worse abusers, because you have to take into account the number of people they serve. And yes, there are stupid regulations, which need to be tackled and governments need to be leaner and more flexible, but as I said, I think regulations are there to be proactive and not reactive. Libertarianism cannot be proactive. I don't know the cases you mention, but can only assume that they are a combination of popularism and miss-information/inflexibility. In the case of the water ponds, where there environmental concerns or was it purely because the law says so and the EPA won't budge? Of course there are bad governments and bad rules, but at least in the case of the government, we get every 4 years the chance to change it. We don't do that with corporations. The problem is that recent governments around the globe are being too much influenced by the corporations and not the people they are supposed to serve. A good government/public force could really be a good counterweight. Thank you for the discussion.
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: dude you write hundreds of posts with absolute nonsense in them, BUT, this one is the exception that proves the rule. Well said my friend, well said.
  • + 1
 @VZLNMTB: oh thank you professor
  • + 2
 @mitochris: Its not a matter of opinion or political belief. Governments have and continue to pollute more than the private sector. How many thousands of illegal toxic waste dumps does it take to equal a single atom bomb? In the USA, government rules on fleet vehicles and emissions standards make cars more expensive, so people drive older cars longer; older cars pollute more. Fleet regulations have given rise to the popularity of SUVs in urban areas where they make little economic sense.

You can choose not to interact with a corporation. You can choose not to buy their products. You can't do that with government. You vote every 4 years means nothing. Nothing changed when Obama was elected. He dropped even more bombs than Bush- 26,000 in 2016 alone (whats the environmental impact of a smart-bomb?). There are millions of people in the US government, 99% of whom are not elected. The heads of every agency and the top managers are not elected. The enforcers of the agencies are not elected. The police who enforce compliance are not elected.
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: Yeah bud, its fact. You should actually do some research into it, more specifically the mystical oil RESERVES and CARBON BUDGET. Good grief.
  • + 2
 @hamncheez: C'mon mate how can you make such a clear division between private and government? Especially when we are talking about energy. Huge "private" (what is private?) companies (which are governments on their own, governing giant human, real estate, financial etc. capital) influence state decisions, so in fact their bidding on particular politicians and parties influences the way government regulations work. So party that has majority of sponsors in coal will push for coal if they have majority in senate. They've grown through sometimes HUNDREDS of years managing coal industry. So obviously they have power structures and strategies which will overcome any renewable lobby today, because renewables are rather new on the scale of human civilization. Therefore PRIVATE sector takes active part in creating government regulations. As simple as that. it's about Power. Big fish always eats the small fish until it dies due to specialization and cannot conform to the always changing environment. And so it starts again. Cycle of life.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: I agree with a lot you are saying, but I do think you are cherry-picking a bit here. I completely agree that a lot of the US foreign policies are not really compatible with a healthy environment. I don't know about the US regulations on fleet vehicles, but is it possible that the regulations were heavily promoted by lobbyists? It took years for regulations on emissions, which forced car manufacturers to actually innovate on their engines, to be put in place. Why make a car more efficient, if it is more power people wanted? SUVs became popular not because of emission regulations, but because of marketing strategists. Acid rain in the 80s and 90s forced new regulations, to improve emissions. Would this have happened without gov interventions? I can choose which products to buy, but it is impossible to actually fully inform myself on all the products I use, whether they have been produced under safe/environmentally friendly/worker rights safeguarding conditions. I require someone to do this for me. Someone I can trust. Should I pay for that service? What should the person doing such a job earn?
On another note, if you reduce gov, who takes care during environmental catastrophes, such as Katrina? Private companies? Will I pay into a fund that then pays for this? Will only people that paid be saved?
  • + 2
 @mitochris @WAKIdesigns: to quote the great Milton Friedman, "one of the reasons why I am in favor of less government is because when you have more government industrialists take it over"

Its 100% true- the line between government and companies that use government for their own ends is very slim. The solution, however, is to limit government. If a government can't hand out favors to anyone, how much money is it worth my company to lobby for favors? $0. If a government can hand out favors, then its not only worth my time to lobby, but essential for me to stay ahead of the competition. An example of this in the USA is occupational licensing. It takes more hours of very costly training to get a license to braid hair than to become an EMT (emergency medical technician). Who lobbies for such insane laws? Existing hair braiding companies since it keeps out new competition in the name of "safety". Government is no more capable of keeping you safe or informed as a private business, since you two correctly stated that government is often a tool of business. If you remove the power for government to regulate, individual firms now have to stand on the merit of their own product, rather than a government regulation.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: There is no separation between government and private on a large scale. If corporation and government are two most powerful structures created by mankind, then what instrument can you use to create a clearer division? Isn't it the "Free" trade, the ability for "private" sector to cooperate with attainable governmental bodies? Isn't lobbying and using political power a mean of fighting your competitors on the market place? Just like any other mean?

So what you want to do is to introduce a regulation to separate state and private. Good luck with doing that without making a... revolution?
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: It comes back down to having a better government. You are brushing the entire public sector into one group but you keep the private sector separated. Yes, government is wasteful and intertwined with the private sector, but if you combine the entire private sector, I am not sure you can say that government is more environmentally damaging. The government is probably the largest single employer in the US. Covering a very large amount of different areas. Combine the private sector covering a similar number of services and people and I am sure we are not looking at a wasteful government. And I don't believe the argument that competition will always give you the better and cheaper service/product.
You argue that government agencies are too big to change. I am sure we will see lots and lots of changes in the coming 4 years with the new administration in the US. Despite the heads of agencies not being elected, but only the main puppet. Whether these changes will be for the good or worse, we will see, but I am concerned about the environment with the new administration. I already was with the old one.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: You already know my solution: make government so small that its irrelevant, or get rid of it all together.
  • + 251
 I Thank you pinkbike for bringing this to our attention. I left a comment deploring the unconscionable act of opening up this beautiful corner of the world for drilling. And before anyone jumps in to call me a hypocrite for using fossil fuel, let me add that I ride a bike to work and to do my shopping, and I am using a secondhand laptop powered by pure geothermal electricity. If you want to point out my flaws, I'll help you; I emit greenhouse gases with each breath, I eat meat, though not a lot, and I own a truck, though I rarely drive it. It's not productive to discourage others from doing what they can by pointing out their flaws. It IS productive to strive to be a little better each day, no matter where you are now. Onwards & upwards,

Nick
  • + 26
 Well said.
  • + 14
 At least you have the courage of your convictions. Too many with your pov do not. Respect!
  • + 0
 Nobody was calling you a hypocrite.
  • - 72
flag Gasket-Jeff (Jan 17, 2017 at 16:10) (Below Threshold)
 Just the "filthy" industry to build your bike alone that you proudly ride to work is hypothetical. Do what you want with your life but stop trying to stop humans from being human.
  • + 17
 Generally curious - tell me about your geothermal system. Is it a personal closed loop rankine system, or are you paying a premium for cleaner energy from the utility.
  • + 11
 @Gasket-Jeff: This is exactly the problem, humans are sucking up and destroying all the valuable resources from the only place we have to live. Science is trying to find another place for humans to go and F@ck up because they know this one will one day be on the brink; if it isn't already... Humans will one day cease to exist on this planet and it will be for the better.
  • - 17
flag owlie (Jan 17, 2017 at 17:59) (Below Threshold)
 Your laptop, (2nd hand or not), bike, truck, this website, all come from using these resources. Even the stuff you use for your geo thermal electricity were probably built and delivered on a truck.I dont mind the downvote, so here goes: Capitalism works because the best product comes out. It might not be as fast as regulation, but in the end consumers choose the best product.When solar and other resources are the best, we will all use them.
  • + 19
 @owlie: @owlie: you are completley right. the only problem with that fact is that you are turning a blind eye towards the other fact that the reason alternatives like solar are not better is because of oil industries lobbying against it. The oil companies and government entities that are working together to stay rich do not want research put into alternative resources because they know we will no longer pay them for many of the things they make money off of. Solar panels would be better and tesla would have done it if the CIA didnt kill him. FACT
  • + 13
 @jdb06: You lost me at CIA.
  • + 32
 @owlie: you have no idea what you're talking about mate. We never get the BEST product. Products are inferior the moment they are released. New tech is always held back, patents hold back development and planned obsolescence is in pretty much every product today. Capitalism is actually not working at all and is certainly not giving us the best of anything. I personally find it disgraceful that on a planet of limited resources we produce so much tat and throw away products; our best is way way better than what we currently get.
  • - 13
flag owlie (Jan 17, 2017 at 19:02) (Below Threshold)
 @jdb06: lobbying=regulation. It takes longer but the free market will bring the best product to the top.We are not stupid consumers. We quit buying what we dont like. No matter how good the commercials. Electric companies are consumers as well. The best product to make electricity is coal right now. When the watt/dollar comes down and we can live off the grid for a $4000 investment, coal will be done. So electric carts do very little since our infrastructure cant support everyone in an electric car, and upgrading will cost us.
  • - 3
 @dicky1080: youyre thinking of products as shiney little things you buy on amazon.
  • + 4
 @owlie: In a discussion about alternative energies nuclear is seemingly left out. Read up on the French nuclear program. In my opinion, that is the alternative. But we are afraid of it because of mistakes caused by human error and old technology. There are other resources that are the best. We are not using them.
  • - 1
 @swamper1: largely because of regulation. My friend is the president of buying for a multi state Electric company. He says the same thing. Nuclear is our only option. The left wont have it.
  • + 1
 Nick, at least you're honest and enlightened. You did forget one thing (and I'm not bringing it up to bust balls, just saying') - even if we bike to the store to get our groceries, we must remember that all our fruits, veggies and Coco Puffs arrive to the shelves at Safeway or Whole Foods via truck, train or ship. We could moonwalk backwards to the store, and still be a fossil fuel supporter. And fossil fuels are not the complete devil anyways. 'Clean energy' such as lithium batteries require tremendous amounts of mining to get those resources, namely lithium, rare earth elements, nickel, and mostly copper in fact. Not to mention, batteries at this point, cannot be recycled. For those interested, a great book is out there called 'Abundance,' by Peter Dianmandis. We have incredible amounts of technology being developed right now to harness 'abundant' sources of water and energy. It seems contrary to all the doom we've had put forth in our lives, but 40-50 years from now we will only have to worry about the type of fabric softener we prefer. We'll have so much water and energy, that we'll be fretting about hot to use it, and distribute around the nation.
  • + 4
 @owlie: Thank you for talking sense. Now I feel like I don't have to.

that being said, public land is a hard one. It's been held so long and its management and sale is so far outside the free market, that's it's difficult for me to say "yes privatization is the best way", even as a free market capitalist. My view is essentially that we should figure out how to make as much of this land as possible managed by state and local trusts, and the feds shouldn't have to be paid for it, cuz f*ck the feds, they take enough.
  • + 1
 @twelve02: very well put and sadly very accurate...
  • + 2
 @enicma: no reasonable human being would call you a hypocrite. The issue has never truly been the use of fossil fuels and plastics, the issue is the OVERUSE of fossil fuels (gas, plastics, etc). If everyone on earth lived the way you did we would not have runaway climate change, a mass extinction of species, and piles of garbage so deep not even the remotest areas on earth are untouched......
  • - 12
flag jaame (Jan 17, 2017 at 21:36) (Below Threshold)
 @TheDoctoRR: oil is there to be used. Waste not, want not.
  • + 2
 @swamper1: The French nuclear giant Areva would be bankrupt if it weren't nationalized and supported by tax payers. Their newest tech is extremely expensive (see Hinkley Point C in the UK and Olkiluoto in Finland) and they are caught up in a scandal trying to hide faulty reactor components.

There is some new tech coming from the US which looks super promising, but it is still 10+ years out before it could scale. Shutting down existing plants that are safe makes no sense, but new nuclear is relatively expensive and risky due to massive investments and construction times.
  • + 3
 @owlie: Nuclear is not the only option, it is one option and can certainly have a place in the energy system. As onerous as the regulations may seem, there are zero private insurance companies that will underwrite a nuclear plant; it is way, way too expensive. That leaves governments to do it and part of that heavy regulation is to make sure their very unlikely but extremely high risks are mitigated.
  • + 12
 @nisommer: @swamper1 what people in this discussion clearly fail to realize is, that nuclear power plants create atomic waste that will be there for the next billion years and noone has any idea what to do with it - even though we have been using the technology for over 50years now.
Yes nuclear power is 'clean' in production, certainly a lot cleaner than coal. But does that make nuclear energy clean? f*ck no. You must be seriously ignorant to believe that.

@owlie 'the best product to produce energy is coal right now' -- lol. Are you a troll? A comment like that is not even worth to be discussed. Have you ever thought about the fact that price is not the only variable to consider when judging if something is good or bad?
About your argument about humans not being dumb and always choosing the right product long-term:
Have you ever seen a human smoking a cigarette? Because that is how dumb humans are (in general; no personal offense).
Paying a million $ over the cycle of life for getting nothing out of it but increasing the likelihood of dying a horrible death. Man you are full of shit with your statements.

Promoting nuclear or coal energy goes right in line with the privatization of drinking water or essential infrastructure qualifying as being the dumbest idea ever. It is empirically proven, that the human does not have the ability to act rational in a wide range of issues, that is why there needs to be a state that regulates.
  • + 5
 Here here! Well said mister! We need to keep these fossil fuels in the ground if we are to survive
  • - 4
flag jaame (Jan 18, 2017 at 4:55) (Below Threshold)
 The biggest mistake of all is believing humans have a God given right to eternal survival on Earth.

We are very adaptable. Certainly adaptable enough to continued survival through climate change, global warming, famines, nuclear meltdowns etc. Still, we are not going to be here forever.

I say, enjoy it while it lasts. Fossil fuel is there, it can make cars and motorbikes go fast. It can power my house. It can keep me warm. Why wouldn't I want to use it? It might help make Earth a bit warmer. It might cause the human race to become extinct in a few hundred thousand years, and it might not.

Why dwell on what might happen to us in a few hundred thousand years when there is statistically a much higher risk of us getting killed off much sooner than that by our own race?
  • + 0
 What does it matter if we survive or not? Look at the clear night sky sometimes. You will see plenty of worlds that don't exist anymore. Enjoy that fkng view. You are an extreme rarity that can do that. How about sht coming down to Earth from that sky? How much money goes into finding objects that can do enough mess, even by exploding in the atmosphere, that can demolish our economy and change the way our civilization looks like. Will Global Warming put end to human race? Probably not. Question is how many billions must die. Artificial General Intelligence anyone? You do know that we are heading into becoming machines. Resistant to poisons, climate change and everything else: sht like radiation. Or... time. We won't need atmosphere. Ready to leave Earth and never look back. Build Dyson swarms, move fricking stars, mine whole fkng clouds of gas. A kind which only worry is entropy and cold death of the universe.

Is it a bummer that another oil site pops up? Yes. Do we need to drill more if Arabs have plenty of it and US has enough firepower to obliterate every living human being in the area? Would I care more about some MTB cool fkng place disappearing over a new oil rig being built in the ocean? Fk no. I was born in mountains covered with forests all the way to the horizon. Most of it is gone due to massive die out (and then some sneaky cutting of good ones). What can I do? Post moralistic sht from the top of my high horse? I can just move on and try to be better and keep my eyes open.
  • + 3
 @velocitajano: I pay a small premium for clean power from my supplier: sonomacleanpower.org/your-options/evergreen

It's about 11% more expensive, which adds up to about $1-$2 per month on my bill.
  • + 0
 @mazze: I know price isnt the only consideration. And were also under a lot of regulation on what we can use. Availability, existing infrastructure and price all make coal our best option right now. Comparing a smoker to my insight? Its people that are smart consumers, not "a person ". And to that, smoking has steadily declined over the last 25 years. And even more so since the e-cig thing has come about. A decision to smoke isnt picking one product over the other, its a lifestyle choice, So man you are full of shit.(in your words) Im 100% ok with privatization of utilities. Give me a choice, Ill pick the best one and in 20 years the price will come down and the product will be better. thats capitalism.
  • + 0
 @owlie: capitalism... yhm... I like how people, especially in US, use that word in exactly same way communists praise marxism. Ideological nonsense distorting reality. I've read enough of Milton Friedman to see paralells to sht his worshippers say they hate. And "capitalists" don't listen to what he says either. They just nitpick what suits their current position. Do you use public roads? Do you like Police? How about a private fire brigade? You don't like the health care system where you get knocked unconscious and you get help in the closest hospital? Are you a socialist scumbag if you do?

It's not capitalism you mean, it is evolution. Efficiency and mutations are written into it. Right mutations happening at a right time survive and prevail. Sometimes dominate, only to die abruptly. Doesn't matter if it is a tooth shape of a crocodile, ape coming down from tree, type of weapon used in a war, type of car engine or a particular law. We are on the way to get rid of religion, so will we be done with blind use of ideologies.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Its free trade. You really have no place talking about it. You dont see me bashing on your socialism. You get your info on America from PinkBike and CNN. Infrastructure isnt a product. Get it straight Waki. Forcing people to consume a product because of a parties agenda is regulation. If thats the best product, it will rise to the top, eventually.
I pay for my healthcare, and no I dont believe it should be "free" because free means someone else pays for it.
Socialist ideologies and how great it is coming from a country with very close to the highest income tax in the world. Yea its working alright. LOL
  • + 1
 @owlie: its not free. its paid for via taxes. The United States is failing in many health, education, and rights metrics.
  • + 1
 @kmg0: I clearly outline that free doesnt mean free
  • + 3
 Who knew mtnn bikers are bunch of f***ing braindead communists with zero idea of how anything actually works? Go figure. Enjoy your "higher learning" indoctrination.
  • + 3
 @mazze: "Clean" is a pretty vague term and really doesn't mean the same thing to each of the energy sources being discussed. Every type of energy, including "clean" renewables, have their impact and its very difficult (i.e. subjective) to equate them and decide when one is better than the other. Of course atomic waste is dangerous, particularly so in the first 50-100 years. Is it more dangerous than greenhouse gas emissions? Or sulfur and Nox particulates that create smog and direct health issues? Or energy poverty? Depends on where you are, what your current position is, and what your needs/values are. There are very few blanket statements to be made about energy on a global stage.

There are some smart people with ideas about how to handle the current nuclear waste stock. Are they enough? To early to tell, but its not like we are completely clueless about how to deal with it. The big uncertainty is the sustainability of human institutions to maintain their storage and safety.
  • + 0
 @owlie: if you wrote your reply based on what I wrote then A.I have problems with sying what I think (probably) B. You misunderstood what I wrote because C I agree with your reply 100%. But the Free Trade bit. Because I don't know what you mean with "Free trade". I know ideological background connected to the term and I know some stuff about reality of trading between various actors. Because there is natural competition, there cannot be such thing as the perfect, glorious "Free Trade" - various "private" factions will fight each other and try to control the flow of goods as a mean of getting the edge over the competition. Like by corrupting the government to make regulations favoring their agenda. So do you want government to make a regulation to make no regulations?! Whooopsie, the most basic philosophical pitfall - there it goes. So I gladly refer to mr Friedman who said rather clearly (and it says on the back of the edition of the book i have, with fkng huge letters) that the biggest threat to the freedom is concentration of power, no matter if it lies in private or government hands. And the reality is that these days there is no real separation between private and state No1. and No2 Many companies are states on their own and have enough power to influence governance (as written above) and if you want to abolish government then are you... Smile . Now, we get into ideological principles when we say that we haven't yet got real private business driven free trade and if we could only get that, we would have free capitalism and world would be fantastic - well this exactly how modern marxists talk about communism, that bullcrap that what Stalin did wasn't the real communism and if they could only get the power they would make it right. That's what all great social/political and environmental warriors want: give us the power and we will make it right. Oh this is exactly a communist tyranny. Trying to get full control.You do need full control to make what you feel is "Free Trade". You need Gods executive power to go and punish those who oppose it. And there will be folks who oppose it. Will you send them to a gulag? Good luck identifying all of them in the first place.

And screw you straight, deep up your angry arse with a broken wooden stick covered in Tabasco(R), if you think I get my info from Pinkbike and CNN. Tell me... does Swedish flag next tomy username disturb you on it's own?
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: No, I drive a V70R. I like it. I dont know if I understand this 40 page manifest you wrote up here, maybe youve already started drinking today. I saw God and Tabasco, and I realized the post bait you are so famous for was starting to play out. I wont feed the spel troll. Im gonna go do a little free trade on my bicycle now.
  • + 0
 @owlie: let's have a beer and talk about Volvos one day. Nobody has ever put a gun rack on a Volvo... which cannot be said about Hilux... V70 is a car of decent people looking for peace and vegan meat balls. I drove the V90 D5 the other day and it's not worth it over any V70. The steering and suspension are a dead f*ck and the car isn't any bigger. Not as worthless as the latest XC90 but still. Of all Volvos V60 and V70 are my favorites. I fit my 160 bike in V70 without taking any of the wheels off. Oh you fed me anyways, I can munch anything... Wink Cheers!

@Earthmotherfu
  • + 1
 @nisommer: Exactly this is the point. Humans are not even able to plan on a timehorizon of over 100 years because of the shortness of individual life. However, there is huge uncertainty about something like nuclear waste for thousands of years and we are responsible to act economically as well as environmentally sustainable for the sake of future generations of the human race. Namely your kids and grand kids and their kids... that is actually not so far away if you consider a life expectancy of about 85 years and rising. That is why I absolutely agreed on what you said about needing heavy regulations by the government.
Nuclear energy already had its place in the energy system, but now it is time to reduce its role consistently instead of building new nuclear power plants.
There is enough atomic waste to worry about already and there has been for 50 years, without any ideas other than putting it in a big hole with a lot of steel and concrete around it. And given the fact, that we already have all the technology required to satisfy the demand by using 100% percent green energy, it is just batshit crazy to invest in nuclear energy anymore. Especially if you consider that the actual cost of dealing with the nuclear waste is in the end much higher than only using green energy in the first place!

@owlie don't blame the messager, dear Sir. What you are saying is utter bullshit.
Coal is the dirtiest and ecologically most harmful way to produce energy at all and and the so called green energy is affordable and has been for a long time. All you need to do as a consumer is make the choice for it like @enicma did it and every sane person should do.
Punishing VW with a 21 billion $ penalty for ecological reasons while promoting coal as the best way to produce energy (like Trump does) is not only f*cking dumb and ridiculous, it's also a moral double-standard.
The fact that humans do smoke cigarettes (whether there is an e- in it or not) is proof that humans make unsustainable, irrational and incompetent decisions, which makes your argument completely invalid - whether you call it a lifestyle choice or not is completely insignificant. Also your statement about the Tobacco industry is just a plain lie. The international revenues of the Tobacco industry are still rising, the sales only declined a bit and fact of the matter is that this can in no way be attributed to humans getting smarter BUT the higher regulations i.e. taxes, local prohibition and advertising restrictions. Which exactly proves my point, that there is a range of topics in which humans are not able to act rationally and therefore need governmental regulation. It's basic behavioral economics.

Privatizing is a very significant and certainly needed economic instrument when it comes to industrial specialization, but it was proven in many occasions that privatizing things like infrastructure or freshwater supply is a bad idea because private companies tend to under-invest systematically to make a profit, which ultimately leads to ailing infrastructure and inadequate supply. The City of Paris in France took back the water supply from private companies, after the water was contaminated and caused several illnesses and even deaths. And that is just one of the countless examples I could give you.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: i wish i could have a sit down with you over this sort of stuff instead of stupid bike crap. Im sure i have a different perspective but, have a hard time finding people that arent rigidly tied to a doctrine enough to even dare question their own set of ideologies. I guess out of fear of being one of "them".
  • + 2
 @mazze: and I thought sakis post was long. I must say you use bullshit a lot especially for someone so full of it. VW was fined for cheating. They cheated. If renewable energy was the best choice, then it would be the best choice!! If the whole world was on it we would fold. It will take many years of building Infrastructure to accomplish. With lots of bulldozers and boats from China. Get off your fvxkin green high horse and look around.
  • + 0
 You can apparantly fit a large double wardrobe in quite easily too...and a coffin..and a few school children.front glovebox has more than enough room for a couple of rape kits apparantly..I've also heard that it's a doggers dream, it will accommodate 6 fat bastards doing yer missus easily.
  • + 1
 @owlie: "Capitalism works because the best product comes out. It might not be as fast as regulation, but in the end consumers choose the best product.When solar and other resources are the best, we will all use them."

That was a joke, right?

You're not REALLY equating capitalism to natural selection - NOBODY is that deluded...
  • + 1
 @owlie: I'm sorry, but either you don't want to understand my argument, or you don't have the necessary mental capacity. Renewable energy is the best choice and there is no doubt about it.
However, people tend to be shortsighted and therefore mistake something like nuclear energy or coal energy for cheaper, even though calculating the cost of dealing with its waste (nuclear) or pollution (coal) proves this line of thinking wrong (in the LONG-TERM, which people don't take into account! Get it? Got it? Good!).
VW got fined for producing HIGHER EMISSIONS than they (and all other Automanufacturers) said their cars would produce. The EMISSIONS of using coal for energy production, however, are more than twice as much as all car emissions. That is the double-standard. Maybe this helps you to connect the dots. I sure hope so.
Are you really criticizing investments in infrastructure? I mean... really? Delaying investments in necessary infrastructure into future times is exactly the point of being shortsighted, because the costs of increasing the coal-energy will cost us way more in the long-term due to pollution. Man, you really don't get it, do you?
  • + 3
 @mazze: I'll add that for everyone who's worried about this topic, I work in the wind industry and it is remarkable and going mostly unnoticed how much the unsubsidized cost of wind and solar have dropped and therefore how much of it is being installed in the US and around the world based largely on its increasingly competitive cost. In terms of Levelized Cost of Energy, which is the most comprehensive way to look at what these and traditional electricity generation costs, wind has dropped 66% in the last 7 years and solar 85% in the last seven years. In year 2015, solar and wind combined for the first time in history were installed at a higher rate (51%) than fossil fuel plants and nuclear. Drilling will continue for oil and gas, but coal and nuclear are over because they're both a lot more expensive. It's encouraging now because it's based largely on cost and less on policy and subsidy.
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: It is natural selection but Owlie got it wrong. He forgot to factor in private investment lobbying for tax cuts on oil, sending army to secure certain wells and voting against other sources of energy. Then you have voters who are not well informed, who get information from biased sources, sponsored by same people who pay politicians. At this moment FOX News or CNN are openly supporting certain parties. I wonder when will we have Media conglomerates openly promoting certain corporations. So in terms of natural selection big fish eats small fish. And they call it "Free "Trade and the only reason why "capitalists" call it Free is because it is unregulated. The problem is it is not regulated openly. By government. Corporations still regulate the market, or influence the flow of goods if you like. I mean hello...

@mazze - with all due respect, what German government did after Fukushima was plain ridiculous. Politicians blown by coal companies got an opportunity to push coal through. It had NOTHING to do with ecology. Money is not a problem with storing nuclear waste. How bad is that compared to storing sht in atmosphere? Look I have no knowledge to back it up, but if you have a gathering of scientists like Great Debate and they are divided rather evenly on the subject of Nuclear Energy then I say something's up. Renewables already providing enough, well in the perfect world yes. But it smells a bit like marxists, capitalists and other ideologs. If we only got what we need... Scientists say we are close to fusion. I think the last date was 2035, factoring in the delay caused by oil and coal lobbying. The fascinating question is: if we get the great source of energy, if we got one or two other habitable planets, would we still care for environment of Earth? How would post scarcity ecnomy influence care for environment. Positively or negatively. Cheers!
  • + 1
 @0gravity: You are absolutely correct. But before it could get as cheap as it is now, it needed an intelligent and reasonable government to promote and stimulate that development (because people as in consumers are too short-sighted). And that is what I'm talking about.
Of course everybody hops on the train when it is the cheapest method available... but it could've never come thus far without subsidies. And Trump publicly announced to cut exactly those and even shut down Tesla´s plans of solar plants and promote coal energy instead. In other words he is willing to kill technological progress and is protectionist of old business partners and friends instead. And people like owlie are all for it. LOL.
  • + 1
 @scary1: never been to college except for the parties.
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I have no time to read your answer in full detail right now, but you are referring to Angela Merkels politics. I could never understand how Germans could be as retarded as to elect her once... but thrice? For me, that's a good reason to flee the country as soon as possible.
But to make it clear: the pre-Merkel government already decided the nuclear phaseout years before she got elected.... Merkel was just sucking lobbyists dicks and decided to exit from the nuclear-exit!
  • + 2
 @mazze: isn't nuclear phase out as "good" idea as going for deisels? I was sceptical about deisels when I was a fricking teenager. Someone comes to you and days there's magic fuel. A bit cheaper and a bit better in every single respect. Same with cars running on all sorts of gas. Magic! Same sht with the influx of electric cars. People behave as if electric cars were not only less polluting than ones running on gasoline. As if they were cleaning the environment. And what about depleted batteries? Disappear like magic. Like poop into the toilet. Wormhole to a different dimension where in fact some nice creatures eat it and thank us for it...
  • - 2
 @mazze: You love to throw insults out. It must be that superiority complex you little inbred Germans have. Sorry, Im going to bow out of arguing this on PinkBike. Dont take it as a victory, it isnt. Id rather wrap fishing line around my dick and pull then try and educate big foreheaded angry Europeans
  • + 0
 @mazze: I thought vw got caught with their pants around their ankles.first of a line of lying,cheating bastards.
  • + 0
 @Earthmotherfu: VW was like that stupid kid in the school. 10 kids, 9 throw stones at a little girl behind the school building, because she has a silver IPhone, not black one. Teacher comes in , 9 fkrs run away in a milisrcond, good kid stays and gets his arse taken to the principal. Look son. It's not about right or wrong it's about who got caught. Now go to your room, you ashamed the whole family!!!
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: i get that but just like the squeaky clean smug shit at school,sooner or later you know they're gonna get some.i bet vw have been stroke pulling for years,just like the rest of them.Volvo are next inline for emissions fiddling with their perkins ww1 bitumen burning Furness engine.Smile
  • + 0
 @Earthmotherfu: Volvos are running on recycled vegetable oil that was used for frying meat balls at Ikea.
  • + 1
 Electric cars are great! I can drive around the avenues near me scaring the shit out of pensioners on stealth mode.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: now that I believe.ive read a few stories of folk juicing up with oil from the fish n chip shop,causing a stink all over the plaice.is that the cods honest truth?
  • + 3
 @owlie: I wasn't insulting in the beginning, Sir. I was outlining that your argument for coal energy was totally incompetent and uninformed - and therefore bullshit. Whereupon you started to insult me as full of shit too, however, without any reasoning whatsoever.
In this bilateral discussion of ours there was only one trying to educate the other based on scientific facts, real world examples and statistics - and let me assure you, it was not you.
The difference between you and me is, while I insulted ONLY the quality of your arguments, you on the other hand are generalizing and insulting me for my origin. And not only as a German but as a European.
Congratulations on proving your (individual!) inferiority.
  • + 1
 @Earthmotherfu: Do you mind the question where your hate on VW does come from? It's another topic I know, but I'm interested. Because if you smell a Ford Diesel (American), a Renault (French) or a Fiat-Chrysler (Italian-American) they are no different at all. Toyota did the same thing too and silently fixed it in the shadow of the VW scandal. I mean, I don't like what they have done at all... but most if not all companies were or are cheating, and seemingly nobody is interested in them.
  • + 1
 @mazze: whoever else is doing it,done it or about to do it is irrelevant to me right now,they'll pay the price later. As far as I can see the only reason for doing it was a monetary one,therefore it's fraud and there has to be repercussions. Vw got caught with their hand in the till and as far as I'm concerned, their no different to a thief -albeit a rather large one.
  • + 3
 @mazze: Although I mostly agree, we should not forget that the issue with nuclear waste is solvable and has been solved already decades ago. We can break down the high radiation waste to much cleaner waste and even get energy out of it, but it was less cost-ejective so it was not pursued. By now, the stigma of nuclear energy is so bad, that nobody will go there. The problem with most renewable energies is that we have no way of storing it (sun/wind) Water might be a bit more stable source of energy, but once the sun is gone or there is no wind, we have no energy. There are solutions coming, but batteries as we know them now, are not the answer. They are a disaster by it self and electric cars become favourable from an environmental stand point only after many many years. Should we burn more coal? No, we have to leave these things in the ground, but to do so, we have to change the way things are run now. We have to accept that the price for energy will increase in the short run and that this is something desirable because it will drive innovation. Innovation in renewable energy will catch up and bring the price down, which hasn't really happen for decades in traditional energy source. Currently, a combination of nuclear power and renewables would be the best solution and cut CO2 emissions drastically and in my view, the only way to get independent from oil/coal.
  • + 2
 well done @mazze. articulated your points quite well, i think this last retort was @owlie admitting defeat. in a trump sort of way
  • + 0
 @rockymountainsrule: Articulated points like comparing using coal to people who smoke? ok. I shouldnt have joined in a political argument on pinkbike, and its the reason I dont go on Facebook. Bunch of people regurgitating their professors point so of view from last semester. Its trying and a waste of time.
Privatized utlities mean a win win for us as consumers. Only then will companies (not governments) vastly improve the product. Because they want to be the cheapest and the best. Governments have NO incentive to do that.
@mazze your first post in here showed your true colors. You have no idea what Im talking about when I say people are smart consumers. You need to look past your liberal ideologies.

On that note I will resume using pinkbike for what it should be.
  • + 2
 @jdb06:

Spot on, in Nevada they are now allowing energy companies to charge people with solar more for their electricity and pay them less for surplus than market rate.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/13/solar-panel-energy-power-company-nevada[/url]
  • + 170
 The land is suitable for oil and gas only, mtn biking does too much damage.
  • + 62
 @Dj-24. PB headline 6 months from now: "Old Rampage site saved from oil and gas exploration, now designated wilderness, closed to bikes."
  • + 21
 Hey guys. Serious post here. Below are the emails of all of the members on the committee responsible for the sale of these parcels that affect king kong, flying monkey, and the OG rampage site. PLEASE. If you feel at all passionate about this property and what goes down here, send them an email and show your support for the mountain biking community. You will be re-payed dividends in "sick footy for the boys"

vballard@blm.gov; nblanks@blm.gov; tsburke@blm.gov; dcorry@blm.gov; bdouglas@blm.gov; d8ferris@blm.gov; lhunsaker@blm.gov; jkellam@blm.gov; dkiel@blm.gov; tlilly@blm.gov; gvmcewen@blm.gov; s5mullin@blm.gov; mnewton@blm.gov; rdreyes@blm.gov; lscott@blm.gov; klthomas@blm.gov; btritle@blm.gov; kvoyles@blm.gov
  • + 5
 @jdbrill: great list mate. I recommend you also add a email for people to copy and paste with specific detail and correct infomation.
I'm more than happy to send it but I don't won't to send the wrong message that might effect you adversely.
  • + 2
 @T-Bot: truth. i will post my email from earlier today. thanks man
  • + 16
 @T-Bot:

Hello,

I would like to briefly discuss the June 2017 Oil and Gas Lease Sale by the Bureau of Land Management.

It is stated on page 69 of the proposal that the parcels of land only affect one single mountain biking trail, however, there are several trails and sites that are used by thousands of bikers within the proposed parcels. Every year, thousands of mountain bikers flock to this specific site that is revered as the mecca of our sport. Mountain biking’s influence in these hills isn’t difficult to spot. Within the parcels of land that are currently for sale is the original site of the Red Bull Rampage event. This site contains hundreds of public trails that are used on a daily basis year-round. During the Red Bull event, this site is visited by thousands of mountain bikers and tourists alike. This year while at the parcel which contains the flying monkey trail, (which actually branches off into SEVERAL different trails) as well as the original Red Bull Rampage site, I met mountain bikers from 10+ different countries, I rode with kids younger than 10 years old, and men in their 50s. What I am trying to point out is the extent of recreational opportunity that exists within the proposed parcels of land.

I understand that we (mountain bikers and outdoor enthusiasts) are a very small fish in the big gas and oil sea. I understand that my love for his area may not trump the value that these grounds will be sold for. I do however, hope that you would consider our plea to keep this land preserved as a public parcel both for its beauty as well as recreational value.

Thank you for your generous consideration.
  • + 2
 @twd953: The irony.
  • + 4
 Here is another potential letter, feel free to copy paste

This document seriously undermines the recreational value of the lands in question. The only reference I see is in Appendix D and says the following:

All of the proposed lease parcels are used for dispersed recreation activities, primarily hiking, hunting, and other human powered pursuits. It is difficult to quantify impacts to dispersed recreation, but it is safe to say that those parcels with nearby housing developments receive the most use and those individuals would be displaced by any development activities. The Flying Monkey mountain bike trail is within parcels UT-0517-042 and UT-0517- 043. This is an expert only, double black diamond, downhill specific trail.

This site is of particular importance to the mountain biking community. The very first, and most historic freeride mountaing bike competitions (Redbull Ramgage) was held on the proposed land, and riding in this area has become a 'meca' for mountain bikers across the world. Every year this event draws thousands of tourist, who almost all visit the proposed land to ride after viewing the event. I have met bikers in this area that have flown in from the UK, Australia, Scotland, Germany and S. America, and all come to ride the most popular site in Utah mountain biking history. Additionally every year hundreds, if not thousands of people visit this site for mountain bike vacations, stay in the area, and provide a valuable tourism opportunity for the nearby communities. The destruction of this public land will eliminate this historic mountain biking landmark, and seriously damage Utah's image as a recreation-friendly state. Additionally, it is specualted that the Redbull Rampage could pull the event from Utah if we continue to support the destruction of public recreation lands, costing the state valuable tourism and economy.

As a Mountain biker I am strongly opposed to the sale of this public land, whose historic significance has been noted in countless films, documentaries, magazine and news articles. The development committe seriously overlooked an important economic resource that this land provides to the nearby communities.

As a Utah resident, I am deeply saddened to see our public land offered up for destruction. There need to be an actual inquiry into the public value of this land.
  • + 51
 Shocking it can even be considered next to a national park. I went to Zion a few years back, its proper unspoilt land it seems the government only cares for industry in the US these days screw everything and everyone else.
  • + 3
 It's not govt it's you... And you should care about and know about industry
  • + 17
 This is the reality of where energy comes from. Unspoilt land gets spoiled every day to keep up with the demand our consumption of energy creates. Did you fly there?
  • + 25
 The same could be said for knowing and caring about alternatives and saving national parks and the planet we live on in general. If as much effort and money were thrown at researching and improving the more friendly alternatives as it is for the quick fix like oil and gas, then this sort of stuff wouldn't be seen as such a 'necessity'. There ARE alternatives that DO work, just not progressed enough yet due to ignorance and greed.
You say in your other post about how you wouldn't be able to live or ride mtb etc without fossil fuels...but you do realise, the more this happens..the less areas you will have to ride your bike on such incredible trails. It's happening over here too, the Surrey Hills (which most people here know about and would love to ride) have areas being proposed for similar.
Yes, it's hypocritical for us all to be saying it shouldn't happen whilst we sit at our computers in out heated homes etc etc...but, aside from a few substitutes (solar, using cars less etc) there isn't much we can do about that. It doesn't mean we wouldn't rather the people with the authority and money used it to progress in more friendly solutions for power.

Not least this would be a truly shitty thing to happen just because of the area, having visited last year for a week during Rampage, I can say I have never been so blown way by it/it's surrounding areas beauty. The drive all the way to the other side of Zion is incredible, because it's so unspoilt and you feel so far away from all the industrial shit you're used to.
  • + 12
 Make your voice heard! Read the report and call and email the St. George field office that handles these leases!
eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94973/114831/SGFO_Oil_and_Gas_FONSI.pdf

the contact list is hereA!!!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03
  • + 4
 @TombPhoto: nailed it buddy
  • - 3
 Given the topography of the area..I'm willing to bet you won't be able to see a 30ft storage tank from anywhere in Zion.
  • + 3
 @Grunk: that is true. Besides, todays technologies and trends for oil exploration and development will help to concentrate on reduced footprint. They will choose a flat spot and drilled many many wells from there, then they will frac them and leave... they will screw things up a little, but for sure they will not flatten they hills and obliterate the area.... or at least they should try... you can go to many oilfields in Utah, Colorado and Wyoming and check it out...
  • + 6
 @Grunk: that is a ridiculously over simplistic view of the infrastructure needed for oil and gas.

Also, have you ever been to Zion? It has the highest peaks and rim country around, so yeah you'll be able to see the smog, lights, road and pipe grid, and hear trucks and pumps all night long.
  • + 3
 @Grunk: But you will be able to smell it. And you will see signs of the infrastructure and traffic everywhere you look. Not to mention the flares. Ever been in fracking country?
  • + 5
 @Grunk: We are not talking about one thirty foot tank. We are talking about roads, trucks, smells, pollution and all the stuff that goes with oil drilling. Oil drilling is a necessary evil. We want gas prices to go down. That happens when there is lots of oil. We just don't want it to ruin the pristine places like Zion and the like. Most of this is hypocrisy, even so I don't want it to happen.
  • + 0
 @Grunk: Seriously go suck an egg
  • + 1
 "Shocking it can even be considered next to a national park"

This shit is going on all over the UK - there's barely a national park here that some ball-bag or other hasn't applied for a fracking licence in...
  • + 31
 "30 day comment period", ie: they'll tickle your dick before they fvck your ass.

What the oil industry wants, the oil industry gets.

Meanwhile on the other side of La La Land, MTBs destroy wilderness & parks at alarming rates. :/
  • + 5
 Not true! I work in the industry! If you can convince the BLM office that it will significantly impact recreation sites, an easement can be granted and the old rampage site can go untouched!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03
  • + 4
 The great state of Utah, where you can't even buy normal beer on Sundays.
  • + 3
 @samwise108: these are all of the emails for the people on the committee

vballard@blm.gov; nblanks@blm.gov; tsburke@blm.gov; dcorry@blm.gov; bdouglas@blm.gov; d8ferris@blm.gov; lhunsaker@blm.gov; jkellam@blm.gov; dkiel@blm.gov; tlilly@blm.gov; gvmcewen@blm.gov; s5mullin@blm.gov; mnewton@blm.gov; rdreyes@blm.gov; lscott@blm.gov; klthomas@blm.gov; btritle@blm.gov; kvoyles@blm.gov
  • + 22
 Funny how when someone want to build a track, they get all sorts of hassles from EPA etc, yet when they want to dig the entire place up for resources all the BS the track builders had to go through just doesn't seem important to the EPA anymore...
  • + 25
 step up to the plate red bull, this site has made you millions of dollars, time to reinvest that $
  • + 24
 Has it made them millions?
  • + 4
 They at least made a profit off the events! No one is saying oil and gas isnt important but these sites are important recreation areas for this community and a big company like redbull has the legal and financial backing to do so!
  • + 2
 @russthedog: Yea I have to agree with you here. I'm sure it did a good job of gaining them some media exposure and forwarding their brand recognition. But I highly doubt Rampage made them any real profit at all, certainly not millions. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a company like Redbull took a short-term loss on an event like this.
  • + 6
 Red Bull should make it a bike park. It'd draw thousands in a season. Of course some blue lines would need to be put in...
  • + 3
 @vw4ever: hahaha true!
  • + 2
 RedBull gas to flat... yeow
  • + 6
 @vw4ever: and a hospital
  • + 1
 Ya they need that energy to keep the rampage going on and so we can all fill up to get back home!
  • + 17
 Oil and gas industry reporting in...

It's unlikely we'll see extensive drilling in this area at current oil prices.
Only the flatter portions of the Rampage area would be suitable for drilling.
After the wellpad is completed the only traffic/activity to it will be a pumper truck every day or four.
As long as you aren't on the wellpad stealing equipment oil field workers won't say anything to riders.
#NotWorried
  • + 3
 Ya lots of fear mongoring hear. No driling would be on ridges or near waterways.
It would have to be a huge find/ez extraction to make it all worth it with todays cheap oil market.
"Cheap" unless you live in California where the state makes more per gallon than oil company.
  • + 3
 @jrocksdh: this could still jeopardize the areas near the roads for construction equipment staging!

Even if it is unlikely that they drill our voice needs to be heard by the St. George Field office of the BLM that we care about the area and its trails!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03
  • - 3
 @Grunk #truth
  • - 5
flag codyschmidt1992 (Jan 17, 2017 at 19:18) (Below Threshold)
 @samwise108: Drill. Let the fracking begin! $
  • + 2
 "It's unlikely we'll see extensive drilling in this area at current oil prices."

Honest question: why sell all these leases now? I'll take any answer that isn't "energy independence".
  • + 1
 @Sardine: Future-proofing.

From their point of view...
  • + 14
 Guys the legislation to enact this has been around since the 20s. But you CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!! Call and email these people who wrote in on the Report!!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03

You can also read the whole impact assessment here!

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf

and here is the map of the affected areas!

suwa.org/app/uploads/St.-George-Lease-Parcel-Map.pdf

Do your part to protect the places we go to play and do what we love!

DONT BE SHEEP!! If enough people start blowing up the St. George field office we can save OLD RAMPAGE SITE and the beautiful creek that runs down the canyon!
  • + 1
 these are the emails. copy paste this shit

vballard@blm.gov; nblanks@blm.gov; tsburke@blm.gov; dcorry@blm.gov; bdouglas@blm.gov; d8ferris@blm.gov; lhunsaker@blm.gov; jkellam@blm.gov; dkiel@blm.gov; tlilly@blm.gov; gvmcewen@blm.gov; s5mullin@blm.gov; mnewton@blm.gov; rdreyes@blm.gov; lscott@blm.gov; klthomas@blm.gov; btritle@blm.gov; kvoyles@blm.gov
  • + 1
 @jdbrill: done and sent!
  • + 14
 This is very unfortunate. Page 38 of the document clearly states that anyone who wants to participate in recreational activities within the lease will be displaced, especially if there is oil and gas activity near trail heads. It also states the the downhill mtb trail within the lease won't be affected since MTB riders do not need pristine environmental conditions to perform their activity.

What the page doesn't say is that these oil and gas leases will limit all access to the area. Once the roadways become part of the lease no one will be able to drive through the lease. This will turn out just like western Colorado where the public cannot access the lease property. No driving, hiking, biking, hunting, etc... Leases last for an extended period of time (20-100 years). Can people afford to give up access to public land for that long?
  • + 10
 The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state. They are trying to open up public land for private use. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia just wrote a letter detailing the fiscal impact that outdoor recreation has in Utah. It's an awesome read www.theinertia.com/environment/yvon-chouinard-ut-governors-actions-inconsistent-with-values-of-outdoor-retailer-show/#modal-close . He threatens to take his company out of the Utah trade shows (Outdoor Retailer was last week in SLC. It is an expensive and well attended show and brings in a bunch of cash to UT), which is speaking to them with the only language they seem to understand: money. The state is so beautiful and the recreation is world class, but its run by such dipshits.
  • + 12
 extremely vague. will read news article. Is there abundant oil and gas on the sites? How does this affect mountain biking?
  • + 6
 oh lovely. they talk about bugs, owls but don't mention water table quality. Is that because they are allowing for fracking by not saying fracking or anything to do with below ground activities?
  • + 23
 We reached out to them for comment and the PR person we spoke with didn't know off hand. We'll update with any further information, as we receive it.
  • + 21
 Maybe it's a subtle hint for a loaded pinkbiker to buy it and create a super-bike park?
  • + 11
 The pdf in the link has the complete report. It looks similar to a proposal for oil/gas drilling in Moab that popped up last year, just without precise locations for the drilling. If approved, this will make available over 600,000 acres for various types of drilling so an oil well could pop up anywhere in that area. Maybe next to Zion national park, maybe on top of the oakley sender.

What does drilling look like? It starts with a drill pad which is 3 or more acres that are cleared and flattened for all of the equipment to be installed. It also includes a road to get all of the heavy equipment to and from the pad and pipeline construction for the oil. The pad operates for a few decades or until it becomes unprofitable. At that time the oil company reclaims the land which means removing equipment, capping the well, and redistributing the topsoil they removed to make the well.

What happens if they go bankrupt? Will the topography match what was there before? Maybe your kids can answer that. One more interesting note from the report: "Primitive recreational opportunities in this area include, but are not limited to hiking, backpacking, horseback riding, off-trail exploration, photography, sightseeing, bird watching, and hunting."

They didn't freaking include mountainbiking!!!
  • + 4
 you can check out the BLM report here:

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf

and if you want to protect the area you can contact the St. George BLM field office and let them know you want to save the Rampage site!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03
  • + 9
 @AlexxxC: The only loaded pinkbikers aren't loaded with money...
  • + 1
 Exactly dude it may or may not affect the earth we live on but who cares if you can ride your stupid bike, just another ignorant person
  • + 6
 I'm pretty sure half of the people on here have no brain, this is a real issue! That people of other counties have no business commenting on. We need to protect these lands not solely for biking, but for future generations to enjoy year after year. Nobody wants to have pristine desert landscape marred by the unsustainable drilling of fossil fuels. Before long every piece of public land will be marred by the greed of the almighty dollar. I've seen first hand what public lands look like after then have striped away the natural resources. It ruins habitat for animals, tourism, contributes to global warming, etc, etc. There is no need for this senseless drilling, Mtn Bikers and fellow outdoor adventurers unite and say enough is enough.
  • + 1
 "I'm pretty sure half of the people on here have no brain"

That's the way to get them on board...
  • + 5
 I'm actually ok with it as long as RedBull gets an unlimited amount of petroleum product allocated for onsite use. Rampage with explosions and burning rings of fire could take progression to the next level. Plus we could use some of that energy to make ice and keep our cold beverages the way the should be, ice cold baby.
  • + 4
 Didn't the BLM make a big deal about returning the trails back to their natural condition blah blah blah? Now the just sell it off to oil and gas mining like they don't give an F. Money talks I guess. Ridiculous.
I say ride your E-bikes and poach your trails. There's too much hypocrisy within the land management agencies in the US.
  • + 5
 I call BS on the chance of oil being discovered under the old rampage site. How many pro mountain bikers have augered into that dirt, and not one of them got back up covered in oil.
  • + 5
 Article error: Original Rampage site? Old Rampage site? Sounds like they are talking about the 2nd Rampage site. Some serious confusion from PB staff on the worlds most glorious sporting event.
  • + 5
 And if it is the 2nd site. Isn't that the same as the current 3rd because it is just on the other side of the mountain. They are probably talking about the first and are smoking some really good stuff to think that is where those video's took place.
  • + 5
 You are correct the Pinkbike article does not mention the correct areas!
YOu can read the map here!!!

suwa.org/app/uploads/St.-George-Lease-Parcel-Map.pdf
  • + 5
 It is the original rampage site thats affected. As well as king kong/flyingmonkey
  • + 6
 THe world is gonna run out of oil and gas anyway... useless to destroy something beautiful again to dig out the few left scraps... make a bikepark instead maybe ahahah
  • + 6
 Horrible! I really hope this doesn't happen! ...But with the next person about to take office my faith isn't very high..
  • + 7
 Trump has openly talked about opening federal lands to drilling as part of his energy plan. Trump won UT in a landslide. So if it happens they really don't have anyone to blame but themselves.
  • + 5
 @sino428: IT has nothing to do with Trump these laws that allow for oil and gas exploration have been around since the 20's!! you can read the article released by the BLM here!!!

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf
  • + 7
 @samwise108: Yeah you are rite but now that he is in it will be a big push to get into these areas and they will be able to do it without restrictions or responsibility for the enviorment.
  • + 1
 @slaker: remember this was started on Obama's legacy!
  • - 2
 @MX298: totally not cool, you can't say that because he has a dark skin color
  • + 3
 @JoseBravo: No, you can't say it because it's a retardedly irrelevant thing to say.
  • + 3
 I was pretty shocked when I found out there was oil and gas drilling right near Moab on the way to Dead Horse Point State Park. In fact, you can see gathering lines and smell sour gas as you are getting close to the park. Its a shame really. The point is amazing and the land surrounding the point should have been protected from the kind of activity since this is also part of the premier tourist area of Arches/Moab.
  • + 3
 Hey guys. Serious post here. Below are the emails of all of the members on the committee responsible for the sale of these parcels that affect king kong, flying monkey, and the OG rampage site. PLEASE. If you feel at all passionate about this property and what goes down here, send them an email and show your support for the mountain biking community. You will be re-payed dividends in "sick footy for the boys"

vballard@blm.gov; nblanks@blm.gov; tsburke@blm.gov; dcorry@blm.gov; bdouglas@blm.gov; d8ferris@blm.gov; lhunsaker@blm.gov; jkellam@blm.gov; dkiel@blm.gov; tlilly@blm.gov; gvmcewen@blm.gov; s5mullin@blm.gov; mnewton@blm.gov; rdreyes@blm.gov; lscott@blm.gov; klthomas@blm.gov; btritle@blm.gov; kvoyles@blm.gov
  • + 1
 Copy/paste this letter

This document seriously undermines the recreational value of the lands in question. The only reference I see is in Appendix D and says the following:

All of the proposed lease parcels are used for dispersed recreation activities, primarily hiking, hunting, and other human powered pursuits. It is difficult to quantify impacts to dispersed recreation, but it is safe to say that those parcels with nearby housing developments receive the most use and those individuals would be displaced by any development activities. The Flying Monkey mountain bike trail is within parcels UT-0517-042 and UT-0517- 043. This is an expert only, double black diamond, downhill specific trail.

This site is of particular importance to the mountain biking community. The very first, and most historic freeride mountaing bike competitions (Redbull Ramgage) was held on the proposed land, and riding in this area has become a 'meca' for mountain bikers across the world. Every year this event draws thousands of tourist, who almost all visit the proposed land to ride after viewing the event. I have met bikers in this area that have flown in from the UK, Australia, Scotland, Germany and S. America, and all come to ride the most popular site in Utah mountain biking history. Additionally every year hundreds, if not thousands of people visit this site for mountain bike vacations, stay in the area, and provide a valuable tourism opportunity for the nearby communities. The destruction of this public land will eliminate this historic mountain biking landmark, and seriously damage Utah's image as a recreation-friendly state. Additionally, it is specualted that the Redbull Rampage could pull the event from Utah if we continue to support the destruction of public recreation lands, costing the state valuable tourism and economy.

As a Mountain biker I am strongly opposed to the sale of this public land, whose historic significance has been noted in countless films, documentaries, magazine and news articles. The development committe seriously overlooked an important economic resource that this land provides to the nearby communities.

As a Utah resident, I am deeply saddened to see our public land offered up for destruction. There need to be an actual inquiry into the public value of this land.
  • + 2
 340 comments in here so far. I wonder how many people actually took the time to write a quick comment opposing the proposal? Or is it like most things, where people are willing to e-bitch about it, but they won't take 2 minutes to submit a comment saying "I oppose the issuance of these leases."

The link (again): eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/eplanning/planAndProjectSite.do?methodName=dispatchToPatternPage&currentPageId=105719
  • + 6
 the only thing that should be taken from the ground are the nugs!
  • + 2
 The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state. They are trying to open up public land for private use. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia just wrote a letter detailing the fiscal impact that outdoor recreation has in Utah. He threatens to take his company out of the Utah trade shows (Outdoor Retailer was last week in SLC. It is an expensive and well attended show and brings in a bunch of cash to UT), which is speaking to them with the only language they seem to understand: money. A bunch of other companies have also hit back too. The state is so beautiful and the recreation is world class, but its run by such dipshits.
  • + 2
 Bottom feeders rule the world :
The head catfish runs the banks
and all the other parasites.
Oil is like cancer (consumption)
Free energy is as real as the catfish rule.
Prison or paradise ya got a choicE
DUMB OCRICY
Free dumb. Where giving it away !
You'_all get dumb now ...yea'hear
have another glass of fluoride or some vaccines .
You are what you eat !
Unsure. What Trump will do. BUT
Connected is the pantsuited one to Oklahoma courthouse
Whitewater records were in that building
children dead ,case dropped
Look deep into the Clinton foundation
The BLM is a tool.
We WERE given our choices
Bernie. Classic bait and switch
TV media disinformation.
There has not been a war that the bankers did not WIN !
Who do YOU OWE.

The fatheaded whiskered fish .that's who

The wind in our face .
The breeze In our knees
The good earth under our tires
As we weave thru the trees.
As the great screening Tree Weasel once said...
"Damn missed the turn !"
We need to find that turn, and get on the path of truth.
And do some much needed trail work brothers and sisters
  • + 0
 +1
  • + 2
 Thanks for posting this pinkbike. I am a rockclimber (with a biking habit) and spend a bunch of time in that area every year. I posted this on a few different climbing websites to hopefully expand the email campaign.

Is anyone here from virgin, springdale, la verkin, etc and can speak to if the blm has been telling residents about this?
  • + 2
 The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state. They are trying to open up public land for private use. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia just wrote a letter detailing the fiscal impact that outdoor recreation has in Utah. It's an awesome read www.theinertia.com/environment/yvon-chouinard-ut-governors-actions-inconsistent-with-values-of-outdoor-retailer-show/#modal-close . He threatens to take his company out of the Utah trade shows (Outdoor Retailer was last week in SLC. It is an expensive and well attended show and brings in a bunch of cash to UT), which is speaking to them with the only language they seem to understand: money. The state is so beautiful and the recreation is world class, but its run by such dipshits.
  • + 1
 "The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state"

Do you really think that's likely?
  • + 1
 i do recall in the early days of rampage many of the lines were returned to their previous shape ie shrubs replanted after being moved and so on because of legislation requiring "tree" (no trees here but) hugging. now it is up for grabs for the opposite of tree hugging. pardon my simplistic approach but this is just another example of hypocrisy and no amount of email and letters and petitions will solve this only if you have more money and buy it for the the right cause. (at least we mostly all agree it should be kept the way it is).

Waki has a valid point. long winded but valid.
  • + 3
 A bit off topic but do people think it would be cool to run a MTB DH/Enduro race 'down' the Erzbergrodeo Hare Scrabble Course?
  • + 1
 We can thank Drumpf and his cabinet of f*ckwits. Now, I know, this was initiated by the St. George BLM. Rep. Ryan Zinke has already said he plans to allow oil & gas exploration on public lands.

Basically, we're all f*cked.
  • + 2
 Who are the fuktards that are down voting? @Oaktownkelley is absolutely right with Trump and his cronies we are fvcked. They want to cut funding for global warming research, slacken environmental protection regulations and laws. Our wildlife and our sport is greatly threatened
  • + 0
 @GorgeousBeauGaston: you are correct!
  • + 1
 @GorgeousBeauGaston:

Irrelevant. This is HAPPENING on Trump's watch, not Obama's.
  • + 0
 @KeithReeder: Not sure what they are reporting over there in jolly old England but Trump is not the president yet, nor was he at the time of this article, and has 0 say/power of the issue.
  • + 1
 @GorgeousBeauGaston: this is not from Trump but there is much worse to follow under his regime. All of the cuts they already have planned none of our land is safe
  • + 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

www.saveredrock.com
  • + 1
 "Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation"

EVERYWHERE is dealing with a similar situation.

That's capitalism for you...
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: Same situation in my country. Rich people (those that really take the decisions) are not going to wake up one day and realize that they are f*cking it up, so I just ride in these places while I can and after that I guess I'm going to sell my MTB and ride my other bike in the streets.
  • + 2
 You can copy/paste this letter if you want:

This document seriously undermines the recreational value of the lands in question. The only reference I see is in Appendix D and says the following:

All of the proposed lease parcels are used for dispersed recreation activities, primarily hiking, hunting, and other human powered pursuits. It is difficult to quantify impacts to dispersed recreation, but it is safe to say that those parcels with nearby housing developments receive the most use and those individuals would be displaced by any development activities. The Flying Monkey mountain bike trail is within parcels UT-0517-042 and UT-0517- 043. This is an expert only, double black diamond, downhill specific trail.

This site is of particular importance to the mountain biking community. The very first, and most historic freeride mountaing bike competitions (Redbull Ramgage) was held on the proposed land, and riding in this area has become a 'meca' for mountain bikers across the world. Every year this event draws thousands of tourist, who almost all visit the proposed land to ride after viewing the event. I have met bikers in this area that have flown in from the UK, Australia, Scotland, Germany and S. America, and all come to ride the most popular site in Utah mountain biking history. Additionally every year hundreds, if not thousands of people visit this site for mountain bike vacations, stay in the area, and provide a valuable tourism opportunity for the nearby communities. The destruction of this public land will eliminate this historic mountain biking landmark, and seriously damage Utah's image as a recreation-friendly state. Additionally, it is specualted that the Redbull Rampage could pull the event from Utah if we continue to support the destruction of public recreation lands, costing the state valuable tourism and economy.

As a Mountain biker I am strongly opposed to the sale of this public land, whose historic significance has been noted in countless films, documentaries, magazine and news articles. The development committe seriously overlooked an important economic resource that this land provides to the nearby communities.

As a Utah resident, I am deeply saddened to see our public land offered up for destruction. There need to be an actual inquiry into the public value of this land.
  • + 1
 It would be nice if we could all forgo the aruguing within the community about this or that and look at the real issue here. Lots of people like to recreate on public and national lands, not just us mtb guys. The sale of these lands for privatized use is taking away from all of us, bikers, hikers, jeepers, rock climbers, ohv enthusiasts, etc... Whatever these lands are being sold for, and whether you agree with it or not, affects all of us who utilize these lands for recreation and enjoyment, whether you agree with their method of enjoyment or not. It is larger than just the original rampage site, this is happening everywhere. Mountain bikers have been fighting access issues for decades, as have other groups, maybe its time well all join forces? Im going to sit back and listen to some Beasties while i write some emails, gotta fight for your right!
  • + 1
 usa needs 19.2 mb/d 19200000x200(l)=3840000000 l a day world makes 80.31mb/d usa 8,3mb/d so usa makes 1/2 of it herself........so 24% of the wolrd production goes to the usa
hell yeah they love they v8's keep them running 21mpg=33,6 km=9,08km/l i had a vw golf mk2 1.8 gti 18 years ago had the same mpg or km/l then,now the average us car owner has but i drove it like i stole it all the time my alfa does 15km/l and 12km/l flat out pedal to the metal auf die autobahn
  • + 2
 Keep it in the ground!

Good article on how we can all help the divestment of fossil fuels:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/23/a-beginners-guide-to-fossil-fuel-divestment
  • + 1
 There is currently no alternative energy option that is possible without fossil fuel. That includes fossil fuel for making the solar batteries, maintnence on nuclear plants, the manufacturing of wind turbines and storage cells, hydrogen storage cells, and on and on. No fossil oil. No life as we no it.
  • + 2
 I have to be honest... I skipped all of your comments. I submitted a short statement to the BLM via the links. I would encourage everyone, regardless of their views to do the same.
  • + 1
 First comment.....standard PB try hard humour comment. 90% of the following comments reference the first comment.


Meanwhile, Donald is selling off the rights to known mountain biking spots while the so called "Mtb community" tosses the day off.

Another productive day of internet based inanity then.
  • + 2
 Outdoor tourism money.... You are kidding right? Do really think Utah makes more from celery and gluten free water than what the oil/natural gas industry has to offer in license fees, taxes etc?
  • + 1
 If it makes anyone feel better, it is highly unlikely this parcel will be bid on, or if so, drilled - given current oil and gas pricing and the thousands of idled wells in already developed areas of the state.
It was put forward by the BLM for auction, it was not nominated by industry. BLM puts lands up for auction all the time knowing that it has no oil and gas potential in order to meet statutory criteria.
This does not mean you shouldn't write a nice letter to the BLM office and let them know the value of mountain bike recreation in the area. That can help future decision making, particularly in light of the Wilderness advocates' desire to see this area designated Wilderness(not likely in this Congress) or more significantly Wilderness Study Area, which does not need an act of Congress - just a decision by a land manager.
Ironically, it appears that much of the text of the Pinkbike article was cut-and-pasted from the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance's website. suwa.org/press-release-blm-announces-proposal-sell-oil-gas-leases-doorstep-zion-national-park
These folks are not fans of mountain bikes. They would rather see the area designated as Wilderness.
Pinkbike apparently did not cut and paste this paragraph from the SUWA article:
"The proposed lease parcels overlap lands identified by BLM as possessing wilderness characteristics (i.e., outstanding opportunities for solitude and recreation) and which are proposed for Wilderness designation in America’s Red Rock Wilderness Act, H.R. 2430, S. 1375 (114th Congress)."
Note that SUWA's definition of recreation does not include bicycles.

Even if it were ever bid on and developed, that does not rule out mountain biking. For example, one of the best newer networks of MTB trails in the Utah, Mag 7/Navajo Rocks/Horsethief in Moab, was enabled by oil and gas development. The offset required of Fidelity when it drilled those wells which, was that they devote hundreds of thousands of dollars to recreation. I do wince when I see some of the drilling infrastructure from the road as I drive up Hwy 313 to these trails, but it's actually fairly difficult to notice once you are actually riding.
  • + 1
 This will go just like the new chunk of wind fans that went in. The area protested because it screwed up the scenery and took away normally accessible land... etc. They basically said screw you we're putting them in. Then they started falling over....
  • + 3
 The original rampage site is on the other side of the highway.. all photos and videos are not from the original site.. clarity?
  • + 1
 The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state. They are trying to open up public land for private use. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia just wrote a letter detailing the fiscal impact that outdoor recreation has in Utah. It's an awesome read www.theinertia.com/environment/yvon-chouinard-ut-governors-actions-inconsistent-with-values-of-outdoor-retailer-show/#modal-close . He threatens to take his company out of the Utah trade shows (Outdoor Retailer was last week in SLC. It is an expensive and well attended show and brings in a bunch of cash to UT), which is speaking to them with the only language they seem to understand: money. The state is so beautiful and the recreation is world class, but its run by such dipshits.
  • + 1
 moving to Utah next year for school and for freeriding. Hearing this is really frustrating. Hope some people in Utah stick up for their land and riding areas and fight against it. Everywhere is being developed and destroyed. Seriously, go find another zone to mine for resources.
  • + 1
 IF you want to save the Original Rampage site read the BLM report on the area!

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf

and then contact the BLM ST. GEORGE field office and let them know you care about the trails in the area!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03

the map of where they want to drill exploratory wells is here!

suwa.org/app/uploads/St.-George-Lease-Parcel-Map.pdf


DO your part and speak out if you want to save trails and clean water in the area! We dont want massive drill equipment where we ride and camp!
  • + 0
 you can copy paste this letter if you want!

This document seriously undermines the recreational value of the lands in question. The only reference I see is in Appendix D and says the following:

All of the proposed lease parcels are used for dispersed recreation activities, primarily hiking, hunting, and other human powered pursuits. It is difficult to quantify impacts to dispersed recreation, but it is safe to say that those parcels with nearby housing developments receive the most use and those individuals would be displaced by any development activities. The Flying Monkey mountain bike trail is within parcels UT-0517-042 and UT-0517- 043. This is an expert only, double black diamond, downhill specific trail.

This site is of particular importance to the mountain biking community. The very first, and most historic freeride mountaing bike competitions (Redbull Ramgage) was held on the proposed land, and riding in this area has become a 'meca' for mountain bikers across the world. Every year this event draws thousands of tourist, who almost all visit the proposed land to ride after viewing the event. I have met bikers in this area that have flown in from the UK, Australia, Scotland, Germany and S. America, and all come to ride the most popular site in Utah mountain biking history. Additionally every year hundreds, if not thousands of people visit this site for mountain bike vacations, stay in the area, and provide a valuable tourism opportunity for the nearby communities. The destruction of this public land will eliminate this historic mountain biking landmark, and seriously damage Utah's image as a recreation-friendly state. Additionally, it is specualted that the Redbull Rampage could pull the event from Utah if we continue to support the destruction of public recreation lands, costing the state valuable tourism and economy.

As a Mountain biker I am strongly opposed to the sale of this public land, whose historic significance has been noted in countless films, documentaries, magazine and news articles. The development committe seriously overlooked an important economic resource that this land provides to the nearby communities.

As a Utah resident, I am deeply saddened to see our public land offered up for destruction. There need to be an actual inquiry into the public value of this land.
  • + 1
 The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state. They are trying to open up public land for private use. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia just wrote a letter detailing the fiscal impact that outdoor recreation has in Utah. It's an awesome read www.theinertia.com/environment/yvon-chouinard-ut-governors-actions-inconsistent-with-values-of-outdoor-retailer-show/#modal-close . He threatens to take his company out of the Utah trade shows (Outdoor Retailer was last week in SLC. It is an expensive and well attended show and brings in a bunch of cash to UT), which is speaking to them with the only language they seem to understand: money. The state is so beautiful and the recreation is world class, but its run by such dipshits.
  • + 1
 The local government in Utah doesn't understand the impact of outdoor recreation to the overall economy of the state. They are trying to open up public land for private use. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia just wrote a letter detailing the fiscal impact that outdoor recreation has in Utah. It's an awesome read www.theinertia.com/environment/yvon-chouinard-ut-governors-actions-inconsistent-with-values-of-outdoor-retailer-show/#modal-close . He threatens to take his company out of the Utah trade shows (Outdoor Retailer was last week in SLC. It is an expensive and well attended show and brings in a bunch of cash to UT), which is speaking to them with the only language they seem to understand: money. The state is so beautiful and the recreation is world class, but its run by such dipshits.
  • + 1
 How many fecking times are you intending to post this? It wasn't THAT interesting the first time.
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: So far 10 too many....and @gtrout you have no idea what you're talking about. Utah govt has a pretty solid understanding of the amount of $$ recreation contributes to the economy.
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: At the time I posted the site must've been frozen. I thought it was my computer and hit it a few times. Your response is REALLY interesting too. You mad bro?
  • + 1
 I have a pretty good idea. I've been working in the outdoor industry for most of my life, attending countless shows in Utah and also spending a ton of time on the road traveling the state with my bike. Utah is awesome, except for the politics and that has an impact on what the industry is going to do in the state in the future. I'm all for leaving to go somewhere that has a greater appreciation for OR and the outdoor industry.
  • + 1
 @gtrout: Cool one less person from Colorado coming here is fine with us. Cheers!
  • + 1
 @weezyb: If you think its just one less person from a neighboring state that is some petty small-minded shit. If just a handful of large manufactures follow Patagonia on this, SLC is going to see a huge economic impact.
  • + 1
 @gtrout: The small minded thing to do is exactly what you did. Accuse the people in charge of making decisions as not knowing what they are doing if they don't coincide with your beliefs rather than trying to understand or bothering to research why they are making those decisions. And for the record I'm actually not a fan of what the Utah legislature would like to do with lots of the federal land in this state. But I don't think the people that run the show are morons, we just have a different set of priorities.
  • + 3
 I don't know about gas but I'm sure there's some shit left on the side of the Mountain after some of the lines the Titans have takes in the past!
  • + 1
 I have also taken quite a few poos in the canyons over the years. Some times you got to go and you got to go now!
  • + 4
 How much money would each pinkbike member have to pay to buy it as a mountain bike history land trust?
  • + 1
 "How much money would each pinkbike member have to pay..?"

Aaaand members who don't live in the US should put their hands in their pockets WHY, exactly?
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: I would put a little bit of money because I kinda like nature, something tells me that we shouldn't destroy the same place where we live at Wink
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder Should and would have entirely different meanings. To answer your word-twisting question, the answer is obvious. So why did you ask the question in the first place?

Also do you ride bikes or just comment on pinkbike? It sort of looks like the later to me.
  • + 5
 Trump
  • + 11
 f*ckin Trump.
  • - 2
 @TamKid: Mother f*cking trump
  • - 5
flag schofell84 (Jan 17, 2017 at 15:06) (Below Threshold)
 GOP.
  • + 13
 Not trump... You and erryone else. You are alive because of fossil fuels. Your bike would not. Exist without fossil fuels. How do you get to the trails? How do you heat your home?? What is the device that you used to post your message made out of. It is unfortunate that the old ramp site is for sale.. But you could buy it... I am so sick of humans ignorantley scrutinizing industry while ignoring that we cannot and do not want to go back to the dark ages.. No politician is responsible for these false sins that we now so blindly believe are sins... I love mountain biking.. I know that it would not be possible without mines fossil fuel factories pollution and ah jobs... It is hypocritical to say you want these things to end while blindly enjoying them
  • + 10
 @jimbdunning He isn't in office yet idiot . I didn't vote for him, but lame comment
  • - 1
 Maybe the putrid capitalism.
  • + 1
 @TamKid: i am interested to know why you think this is Trumps fault?
  • + 2
 @torero: Capitalism created the bike and all the components you are riding, the computer and/or cell phone you are using to access this website, the website you are po, the internet (as well know it today) you are using to access it, etc etc.
  • + 4
 @racer216: I'd blame the GOP and the local government in Utah. Those people don't give a shit about anything other than making a quick buck.
  • + 16
 @Gasket-Jeff: You don't think the industries and the politicians are to blame for this? Shit yes they are. We will always have some reliance on fossil fuels but there are countless ways that through policy the country could greatly reduce its reliance on fossil fuels. A heavy carbon tax along with bigger subsidies and investments in clean energy technology such as solar, wind, electric cars, etc would go a long way. But why don't we do that? Because the fossil fuel industry has the politicians in their back pocket through their massive donations and lobbying efforts.

And this particular case may not be Trumps fault, but don't expect shit like this to stop under his watch. He's openly talked about gutting the Environmental Protection Agency and named a climate change denier to lead it. He said countless times he sees environmental regulations as wasteful and that part of his plan is to open up federal land to drilling. He appointed the f*cking CEO or Exxon as secretary of state. Last I checked UT voted overwhelmingly for Trump so if this shit goes bad for them perhaps they should pay more attention to what the candidates are saying before they cast a vote.
  • + 6
 @LeDuke: so the local government has control over federal land?
  • + 3
 @sino428: this has nothing to do with current legislation! The rules that enable this land transfer have been around since the 20's and 40's! you can learn all about it here...

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94973/114831/SGFO_Oil_and_Gas_FONSI.pdf

Read the report and make your voice heard!
  • + 5
 @Gasket-Jeff: We don't need to go back to the dark ages. Within 10 years, solar will be cheapest source of electricity...cheaper than coal. Battery capacity doubles every 10 years. On the other hand, after 150 years of development the internal combustion engine is still less than 30% efficient.

Even if I have a gas powered pacemaker it wouldn't make me a hypocrite to want to switch to one with a solar charged battery if it keeps the smoke out of my face!
  • + 1
 @biker245: The St. George field office for the BLM ultimately has say on development in the area based on the study done in this paper:

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf

suwa.org/app/uploads/St.-George-Lease-Parcel-Map.pdf
  • + 3
 @biker245: The local BLM is certainly influenced by the locals, local government and state government. The state of Utah is drooling on itself at the thought of Trum/Zinke/GOP being pro energy and mining.
  • + 0
 @sino428: The state of Utah doesn't give a shit about their environment. Anyone that has been to SLC in the winter and breathed their air (which is worse than Beijing, etc) knows that.
  • + 7
 @LeDuke: Worse than Beijing? Really? Sure about that? Wanna provide some sources? ***Not a pro Trump statement (I didn't vote for him)****. However, 'worse than Beijing' is a bit much don't you think?
  • - 4
flag Gasket-Jeff (Jan 17, 2017 at 16:21) (Below Threshold)
 @sino428: you vote with your dollar at the fuel pump... Carbon tax milk just shot out of my nose. You can tax us to death and your not going to change the climate... New technologies come from industry not govt and sheeple leading celeberties.. Add tax makes it harder for industry to inovate... But please by all means feel better about your self as you pay to keep the poor poorer for the wealthy's sake... Wake up you are the one percent the environMENTAL move me is trying to knock you down
  • - 2
 @Sardine: lol... You show me a forge that can be powered by the sun... Take a few physics courses. Understand the issues before buying the bleeding heart punch
  • + 5
 @LeDuke: actually the air quality is worse than Beijing....holy shit

aqicn.org/city/beijing

aqicn.org/city/utah/salt-lake-city
  • - 3
 @Sardine: how efficient is electrical transmission? Don't even talk solar... Wind kills flying animals... Tidal power is true green tech and its not hapening.. Nuclear nrg is green.. We have the tech to do it clean and safe (therium). But we dont.. Fossil fuels are more than just nrg.. Further we as humans have this bizarre hatred of all industry.. So weird
  • + 2
 @bman33: check out the aqicn.org

look up SLC and Beijing...f*cking crazy...
  • + 3
 @bman33: See the post from @samwise108 above. I wasn't kidding. SLC is gross in the winter.
  • + 4
 @Gasket-Jeff: If a forge can be powered by electricity, it can be powered by the sun. I know quite a few knife makers with electric forges, therefore...
  • - 1
 @LeDuke: it would take a mighty big solar field that would be very non green.. Oh yeah and a hell of a lot of petroleum to make the solar panels
  • + 7
 @Gasket-Jeff: Yes we will always use some petroleum and fossil fuels for manufacturing but why are you so against the effort to use any amount less? Less is definitely good for polution and if you ask the majority of climate scientists, critical to the future of our planet.

As far as goverment tax and regulations never being the cause of inovation. I don't believe you've spent enough time thinkimg about that one. How about space programs and military? Especially true when you think about regulations on safety and the environment. Corporations won't innovate unless there is a profit motive so why would they ever bother giving us safer more environmentally sustainable products.

You can see how a small industry can get squashed by a behemoth (if their interests conflict) before it even becomes feasible/profitable/advantages.
  • + 1
 @LeDuke: there's a difference in scale. The energy needed for a hobbyist making a 6 oz knife is vastly different from what's needed to stress relieve 20,000 lb steel structures.
  • + 3
 @CaptainBLT: The only difference being your lack of ingenuity. Germany is getting nearly all its electical power from renewables.

We have the technology... and it's only going to get better.

Plus who cares if we use fossil fuels to forge steel if we can power transportaion and our electical grid from mostly renewables.

This is future shit Im talkimg about but if you think we will be burning a finnite and eventually more and more expensive fossil fuel im the future you are mistaken.
  • + 8
 @Gasket-Jeff: "Wind kills flying animals" LOL. And how many animals are killed by FF pollution, spills, transportation, etc? Redonkulous argument.
  • + 2
 @inverted180: Why does everyone continue to claim Germany uses mostly renewable energy? Thats complete Bulls**t. In 2016 over 50% of its gross production was fossil fuels (much higher than Canada for example).

Albeit they did import a reasonable amount of energy (my original % is domestic production), a lot from Denmark since they have an over capacity of wind power (which is not exactly a good thing, and costs them by having to cut prices on export).

The point is, Germany tried to majorly convert to green power, it failed, and they became a net importer of coal, and burn lots and lots of it to this day, so stop telling people they're a leader in renewables, they are not.
  • + 2
 @Gasket-Jeff: Did you even read what I wrote? Yes taxing makes it hard to innovate, which is why you tax fossil fuels. You conveniently forgot about the second part of the equation which is using those tax revenues to subsidize clean energy sources and research. If you tax one industry (fossil fuels) and invest/subsidize another (cleaner sources of energy) with those tax revenues, it will make the cleaner sources of energy more profitable, and fossil fuels more expensive, which will drive and encourage innovation in cleaner sources.
  • - 1
 @inverted180: Don't quote wikipedia at me, it makes me seriously doubt your knowledge on anything really. But heres some real numbers for you, even from one of your friendly green websites Wink .

www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts
  • + 1
 @MCsession7: Yep your partially right. At any given time renewables in Germany can produce nearly enough power their electrical system but this is at a low demand time.
And Iam surprised to see how much coal they burn true but it doesnt mean that their push for renewable energy is a failure. Surely they would be burning even more coal if it weren't for renewables.

Really surpised when I looked at Ontario's energy mix. Better than germany. No coal and the roughly the same amount of renewables (thanks to our hydro electric). The big difference being our higher use of nuclear. I'm not against nuclear in the mix for base power.
  • + 5
 @Gasket-Jeff: you oughta move south and become a republican dude. Give up your health care too while you're at it. If you take tax money which pays for civilization btw and use it to invest and research efficient and alternative technologies then yes, you can change things. For the better. The funny thing about science is it's real regardless of your belief. Yes, capitalism innovates, to a point. It also acts like an ignorant Luddite when it suits its purposes. Examples include, the fight to keep lead in gasoline, the tobacco industries push to squash the negative health effects of its product, the chemical industry fighting regulation of CFCs, and the current push by the oil industry to sow misinformation about climate disruption, the only possibility for the future we have are fossil fuels etc. it's the same arguments and the same tactics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustin_Mouchot Built a solar powered ice cream maker in 1878! Imagine if our technological focus went in this direction instead of simply setting hydrocarbons on fire. It's where you choose to put your research and money my friend. And a carbon tax can help. Sorry.
  • + 1
 @sino428: we have a carbon tax up here in Alberta now. Everyone is losing their shit at the government.
  • - 1
 @inverted180: I live near the Canadian border and two trains a day full of coal go by heading to Tsawwassen which happens to be just across from Victoria, the capital of BC and also dumps raw sewage into puget sound. Thousands of diesel burning semi's heading up from California full of food pass by here heading north. You guys need to worry about your own country first!
  • + 1
 @MX298: Iam worried about my country first. I never even said anything about the U.S in any of my responses even though the article we are all replying to is about your country.

Whats your point again?
  • + 0
 @inverted180: that we're all guilty of exploiting the earth's resources. Administration, generation, nationality . . . . etc. It's a mankind thing. I may have rational profiled, seen a lot of maple leafs!
  • + 0
 @bman33: "He isn't in office yet idiot . I didn't vote for him, but lame comment"

But he could stop it.

If he wanted to.

Do you think he will?

No. He won't.
  • + 0
 @racer216: It's happening on his watch.

So it's his fault.

That's how this works.
  • + 2
 @Gasket-Jeff: "You show me a forge that can be powered by the sun."

Doable.

It'd mean storing solar-generated power in large capacitors or similar (or yes, *just* batteries), but doable.
  • - 1
 @sino428: taxing our PRIMARY fuel makes everything more expensive. Its almost like taxing money.. You really need to grasp how important cheap nrg is to inovation and life as we know it.. This "evil" powers hospitals education food it touches just about everything in your life
  • + 3
 @Gasket-Jeff: How many times are you going to make the same comment about taxes while ignoring the second half of what I write about using that tax revenue to subsidize cleaner energy, thus making those sources cheaper? Taxing the the fossil fuels is only one part of the equation. There are many ways to produce energy. Fossil fuel is only our primary source of energy because its currently the cheapest. If you change that (through taxation), then something else will emerge as a primary source of energy. We will use what is cheap and companies will be forced to invest in those other cheaper sources if they want to be competitive. Its not a change that can be made overnight as many things need to change, infrastructure needs to be built, power plants need to be converted etc. It will be a gradual change but there is no reason we cannot greatly reduce our fossil fuel consumption over time.
  • + 1
 That absolutely sucks donkey dick, I hope that locals are able to raise enough support to enter a reasonable defence against this but as it the way of the world no doubt the $$$'s will be the only winners here
  • + 0
 Come on, everywhere on this earth can't be taken up with cities and industrial stuff! Sure we take energy to make things run but they should find more stuff in Montana or the Dakotas or something!! Just leave the best freeride mtb event and stuff to it's self!!! Pretty soon there gonna try taking our bikes away because we take so much energy and they want the land (our bike parks and stuff) for more industrial stuff! WHAT NEXT!!!!!!! Frown Frown
  • + 1
 "Come on, everywhere on this earth can't be taken up with cities and industrial stuff!"

Do you know where isn't taken up with this shit?

Where the people making the decisions live...
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: Right, I should just move to British Columbia where everybody has trails and good size jumps in their backyard!!! Wink
  • + 1
 Let the Canadians show Utah how it's done, the mountain I shuttle on (moose mountain, in Alberta) has access to some amazing trails because Husky build a lease road up the mountain to access their wells
  • + 1
 Not to mention the vehicles we shuttle with are not smart cars. Erryone talks about alternatives but talk as cheap as hope. All the lobbying in the world will not stop an alternative and all the tax on carbon will not create an alternative. New tax make innovation harder. There are no renewables that come remotely close to providing the nrg we use.
  • + 2
 @Gasket-Jeff: don't let them fool you that the carbon tax is for anything but filling the gap left behind with the slump in oil prices.
  • + 2
 Patagonia founder Yvon Choiunard pushing Utah's governor and hitting him where it counts. sgbonline.com/patagonia-founder-issues-ultimatum-to-utah-governor
  • + 1
 Thanks for that link. You can always count on Mr. Choiunard to fight the good fight. Though I have never met him, I envision him as a colorfully dressed version of John Muir who drinks whisky on the weekends with Edward Abby.
  • + 3
 Future Rampage is going to look like 'mad max' with oil/gas drilling/refinery's in the background. RIP SW Utah.
  • + 1
 submitted my opposition to BLM. hit the link above and do the same if you have any concern at all as it's really the only thing you can do if you want to be heard. belly aching here will not help ...
  • + 1
 Some right wing trolling I feel here. Feels like before elections. Some members have way to much energy touting capitalism is the best and only way. Maybe on a payroll from Trump/Putin sect. Sorta kidding kind of.
  • + 0
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

www.saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • + 3
 Shit...good luck to those who will fight this. oil will get their damn liquid cash; reference standing rock.
  • + 3
 MAke your voice heard and write the St George field office!!!

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03
  • - 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • - 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • - 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • + 2
 Stay the fuck out of my back yard. The only digging should be for bike trails not your oil.
  • + 0
 for the good of the planet...the sooner our species is gone..the better. this planet will recover. so, yeah, i'm burnin' fuel and living a lifestyle, doing what it takes to hasten our extinction.
  • - 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • + 1
 That's why theyou moved got to skiddie on the oil ,see if know liquid gold Mr Trump , does trump mean the same In English as Merican
  • + 1
 With the incoming administration, This natural area will be desecrated in no time as well as many other natural habitat around the world.
  • + 3
 This has nothing to do with the incoming administration! A request to drill was made and the St. George field office for the BLM saw no opposition so it became a lease swap! Do your part and read the report and be informed! Write the field office and let them know you want to save the area!

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf

suwa.org/app/uploads/St.-George-Lease-Parcel-Map.pdf
  • + 0
 @samwise108: "This has nothing to do with the incoming administration"

It's got EVERYTHING to do with it - this is happening with Trump in charge. It's on him.
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: Just an FYI, the only thing Trump is in charge of at the moment is his big mouth and his twitter account. He and his incoming administration, including the cabinet picks that will have influence over this type of things, doesn't take office until his inauguration this Friday, January 20th. This process was started months, if not years ago, and has nothing to do with Trump at this point.
  • - 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • - 1
 Unfortunately Las Vegas is dealing with a similar situation. A developer is trying to transform a large area right on the border of the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area into a high density housing development. It will completely destroy the beauty of Red Rock and Blue Diamond if it is allowed.

saveredrock.com/about/#the-threat
  • + 1
 Hopefully one day we'll be able to stop pretending that we can't have bike trails in the U.S. because of "enviromental reasons"
  • + 4
 #Grabembythepussy
  • + 0
 #buildthewall
  • + 4
 I drink YOUR milkshake!!
  • + 0
 The amount of Tesla 's on the road today, I am surprised anyone needs gas. Also the hundred of nuclear engineers sprouting daily and developing nuclear power out of their garage, it is surprising we still need oil?!?!
  • + 3
 Not in my backyard! Wait, it IS, damn it!
  • + 2
 Hope Red Bull buys the site and gets into the oil and gas industry
  • + 1
 Legalize it, tax it. No more one time capital sales, what happens when that money runs out?
  • + 2
 The locals have to fight for the good of their waters...
  • - 2
 And gripe about higher nrg/fuel bills... How are the pumps that move the water even powered? Positive vibes?
  • + 1
 @Gasket-Jeff: In before you somehow manage to talk about "transfer payments" and our PM's hair...
  • + 2
 @Gasket-Jeff: You realize rivers and streams carry water without the need for gas right? also there are water tables that people use for wells. But your from calgary so who cares about pollution when there is oil money to be made....
  • - 1
 @nismo325: right up to your shower head. Not in my neighborhood.
  • + 2
 @Gasket-Jeff: so in your mind any effort is pointlesd unless you're 100% renewable. Makes sense. NOT.
  • + 3
 @Gasket-Jeff: Have you ever been to that area? Quite a few solar panels on houses there. The sun is pretty intense.
  • + 2
 @nismo325: You should educate yourself on conventional drilling practices before making un-informed comments.... Considering you live in Lethbridge where there are countless wells drilled within your local area, I'm sure you can provide infinite examples of poisoned water wells and tables. Casing and cement jobs provide the necessary protection against contamination and leaks while wells are being drilled. If this weren't the case, there would be no uncontaminated water to drink in Alberta, Sask and BC... But hey, I'm sure you saw Fracnation and a number of other "informational documentaries" which have "educated" you in the matter so you know we are just making all this up because all Calgarians are slaves to the evil "BIG OIL"!!!!..... Go light your tap water on fire
  • + 1
 @nismo325: i am from Calgary and I'm not earning a living from the biz... I do know that all human life on this planet needs industry to not be dark ages third world, be it oil, mining, manufacturing, logging, ect... And all of them we seem to shun.. I for one know that taxes does not create new technogy.. It's not hard to. See who really benefits from this silly cause. It is a political issue. It is filled with hypocrisy. And prone to stall human progress. Leodecaprio been tugging the heart strings while buying up malibu.
  • + 1
 @LeDuke: i have lived off the grid with both solar and wind power. The tech has a real long way to go.. If "green" bs and "carbon footprints" are your concern solar and wind will prolly never do it. Tidal power is a viable and reliable option in coastal areas, and nuclear nrg can be safe "clean" and "green" trouble is the flock on the environMENTAL band wagon do not know what they are doing and have been positively convinsed nuclear = fukushima 1940s tech and not candu or therium...
  • + 1
 they are gunna have sooo many problems with the north American mangrove foxes there, it wont even be funny
  • + 0
 This is hot !!! I do not think they have too many problems, the organizers with so much creativity to achieve such an event and give life to another similar place!
  • + 2
 Green energy. We have to do it or we risk our environment being destroyed.
  • + 1
 RedBull to purchase land? Shuts down progress? Virgin,Utah to have the biggest bike park on the globe?
  • + 1
 sell it! with the money build an indoor, wind free, mega rampage site!!! dubai style!!
  • + 2
 Come on RedBull. Time to open up shop in Utah!
  • + 2
 we need to keep it! this is a historical place for mountain biking!
  • + 0
 Well that's what you get for voting for trump... just kidding, there are obviously no concequences, I mean climate change isn't real or anything
  • + 2
 Ok, Lets all... SAY NO FOR DRILLING IN ZION, NO GAS-NO OIL___JUST DIRT!!
  • + 0
 Unless you walk and cycle exclusively and live in a house that uses no power from the grid while working a job that's entirely energy independent, shut the fuck up.
  • + 2
 @badbadleroybrown - and the ignorance strikes again. I had written a lot more, but I feel it'd be lost on you and as I want greener energy, I shouldn't be using this lapto...
  • + 1
 @ badbadleroybrown

Hard to imagine how you could miss the point more than that...
  • - 1
 @KeithReeder: Nope... I get the point, a bunch of hypocritical kids are having a tantrum because they don't understand how gas and oil recovery actually works so they're assuming it's going to destroy the landscape.
  • + 1
 I really don't think you do get the point though, as you're still throwing around the hypocrite remark like people have complete choice. The problem is, we/they don't. There are small changes people can make to use LESS oil/gas energy, but on large scale without the funding and work of the hierarchy in their area/country...there's no option to completely stop.
That's just the comment of narrow minded ignorance. But hey, it's money right? That's what matters.
  • + 1
 @TombPhoto: incorrect... the option to completely stop exists for eveyone. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of people are simply unwilling to make the sacrifices and endure the inconveniences associated with taking action. So, unless you're one of the few who are willing to do so, you're a part of the population that dictates oil and gas exploration and reclamation is a societal necessity do quit your bitching... especially if that bitching includes wildly inaccurate fear mongering like crying about pump jacks and flares. The reality is, the visual, audible, and environmental impact is minimal with this type of mining... I've got a buddy in Texas with dozens of pumps on his land and they're far from being scars on the landscape, they're barely noticeable.

The land in question here is also not immediately visible or part of any regularly frequented trail network or anything of significance... since rampage pulled out, I'd bet less than a few dozen people have even laid eyes on the area. This whole story is nothing but liberal alarmists crying wolf.
  • + 2
 Unless we demand change through what we do everyday, work, shopping, etc, nothing will change. We have to be the change we want to see.
  • + 1
 @redbull If you don't buy that land to prevent this atrocity, then you are insane. BUY IT!!!!!
  • + 3
 Gas sucks, ride a bike
  • + 0
 MOMENTS in this place are OUR oil, the one fueling our dreams and passion. Post Office was as well destroyed for the sake of money, don"t do this to us guys.
  • + 1
 Red Bull should buy it... they have enough money. Make a bike park!
  • + 1
 I hope it doesn't get to dug up so many memories there!
  • + 1
 horrible! just plain horrible
  • + 1
 these arguments are great to read, keep it up boys.
  • + 1
 1:14 "HOLY MOTHER TRUCKER!!!"
  • + 0
 Seriously. Whats up with those clown WWF announcers, and that faux metal music. That video is almost unwatchable. Glad they stopped that shit.
  • + 1
 Bummer that money is the only thing that matters
  • + 0
 "Bummer that money is the only thing that matters"

That's "The American Way", isn't it?
  • + 1
 lucky american Donald will fix this.
  • + 2
 lol typical
  • - 1
 That sucks. If there is any oil or gas on the property then its a ticking time bomb before it is exploited. That's the way the world works unfortunately.
  • + 8
 ...."exploited" to heat your home and fill your gas tank.
  • + 1
 They dont even know if there is oil and Gas!!!! ITs just a permit to drill application and since the area is mostly vacant and has few residents there has been no opposition!! Do your part and let the St. George field office know how you feel!

eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/69396/94970/114827/DOI-BLM-UT-C020-2017-0010-EA.pdf

www.blm.gov/or/BLMContacts.php?RestrictToCategory=LLUTC03
  • + 2
 @Grunk. That is true..Fine, I'm on your side now. Demo the site and take all the oil then build one of those cool super walmarts I keep hearing about so we can buy more things Big Grin
  • + 2
 @Grunk: My home heated by solar energy and my "gas tank" is my legs. Thanks.
  • + 2
 what a bummer
  • + 1
 Red bull just needs to buy it, with there disgusting wealth
  • + 1
 W.W.E.A.D? (What would Ed Abbey do?)
  • + 0
 No FRACKEN way!!!!!!!!!!!
  • + 1
 Murica.
  • - 1
 Calm down, they will be environmentally safe oil rigs, nothing like those nasty Ebikes.
  • + 1
 Drill Baby Drill
  • + 0
 Sounds like a good thing, stop dumb mountain bikers using it .????
  • + 0
 *Insert autistic screeching at capitalism*
  • - 1
 Welcome to the Trump Land now That exactly what his voters want
  • + 1
 Just a thought....maybe this has nothing to do with whose president...maybe its just the AMERICAN people?
  • - 1
 Vote Republican!!! What could possibly go wrong?
  • + 0
 wtf ??
Below threshold threads are hidden

Post a Comment



You must login to Pinkbike.
Don't have an account? Sign up

Join Pinkbike  Login
Copyright © 2000 - 2019. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv65 0.225017
Mobile Version of Website