We Went To Taiwan and Started a Bike Company...
If someone gave you enough money, could you go to Taiwan and start your own bike company? What's it really take to get some bikes built? We went to Taiwan to find out. Check out this video and stay tuned for an extended feature story.
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Member since Jul 22, 2013
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CHeers!
Some end up becoming established, others do not.
But there is nothing to stop any of us trying.
Oh, except ourselves.
Great content as ever VF. Thanks.
He ended up maxing out 12 credit cards, flying to Asia to do quality control himself and is now worth a breezy $349 Million
Ruslan Kogan
They added $100 for shipping each frame, you can ship a full container for about $5000 (a big one) so that is pretty OTT, unless they are including duty etc. Insurance at $100 per frame is also mad, sell 1000 frames you are suggesting insurance will be $100,000 I think not!
In the video the manufacturers quote sub $300 and they then cost north of $600, astro appear to quote $270 for the carbon frame and they use $800 as an example if they are going to cost things at least be in the ballpark or explain why it suddenly doubles.
I have a trade price infront of me for a bike in GBP I will use as an example, its RRP is £1600.00, trade price around £870 plus VAT. This isn't some open market frame with a cheap shock either, its a nice frame with top end shock - According to this PB costing that isn't physically possible?
Remember the brand in question is making a profit if they sell to me at £870, how much I couldn't say but I cant think less than 25% which is strangely enough about how much they have over calculated things in this video.
This is looking more like an article to show the public how crap the bike industry has it, with made up figures to back that up
If anything, the $280 cost is probably high as it was an immediate quote given at a trade show, not a seriously negotiated deal for a large number of frames.
Even so, it seems crazy that the carbon frame in your $8000 bike costs south of $500 to produce, but that is just to produce it, not design it, test it, warranty it, service it, it adds up quick, then suddenly you are at 1-2k from 500 quite easily.
@ka-brap - The highest cost in that vide was $650 and that was for a carbon frame, Astro quoted around $300 for a carbon frame, where does the average $800 come from?
Still doesn't answer how I can buy a high end frame for £870 from a Distributor in the UK - not manufacturer - with a high end shock and custom designed frame with 2 year warranty - The distributor is making their profit too.
Is this video meant to make people feel better about paying so much money for a bike frame - making out the brands are effectively doing us a favour or something and barely turning a profit?
And I'm going to guess the $280 will be under the understanding the production run is 1000+ frames. The cost for tooling is insanely high so a run of 100 frames is going to be much much higher.
Again, can you answer how I can purchase a premium brand frame for £870 that has an RRP of £1600 which has a top end shock on it? Are you suggesting the distributor Is supplying them for free?
On-one make a profit on a £220 frame because they don't use Reynolds 853 which is £35 for a downtube alone, a Chinese strait gauge tube is £2.00 in comparison or £8.00 for a DB Cromo tube.
If you got quoted $220 for a 853 frame that doesn't seem too bad - Stanton sells that level of frame for £700, seems like you could make a profit there, no?
You are either making that up for you have been fed complete rubbish. $220 for a Reynolds frame is a great price, tubing alone is at least half that.
If there is somewhere making Reynolds frames for £40.00 I will buy a thousand and make a fortune, as would anybody with half a brain, total made up shite.
But as i said, i was told by an employee (in manufacture, not sales etc) of said company that each frame came in at 40, and were available to employees for less than 100.
I think that price is perfectly within reason for a large quantity but as you said... not for Reynolds.
My question is how much of a frame needs to be made out of Reynolds for you to stick a Reynolds sticker on it?
@Racer951 / fair enough, however I can tell you that certain frame maker told me that making a carbon full suspension frame in Europe, in limited numbers, starts at 800$ (material, layup, baking, CNC for alu/steel parts, axles, bearings - raw manufacture cost) and they need another grand to make a few pennies on it. They also mentioned that there is a reason why it may take up to 50 hours per frame in total, while in Asia that time is much shorter. So nobody should think that they are in the ball park when they bought a frame made of pre-preg Toray 5 hundred million ultra super hi modulus. Off course people in Asia tend to be more disciplined and dedicated so it may be it. But I don't think so - that's why I laugh when I hear that Trek is proudly made in USA - uhmmmm... so what? Has manager Bob and employee Jose higher quality standards and work ethic than Zhang-Wei and Liu? Maybe... or maybe not... Bob definitely had a food coma after a nice Tripple Cheese Burger when he quality checked 5.5k worth Madone 9.9 frameset that got cut through by Raoul Luescher. Have a nice time riding 2.5kg Session 9.9 - they can lower the weight below Enduro frame level because they have a straight down tube cock block and it's made to tighest tolerances. BELIEVE US!
But in general a lot of trolls here were saying that carbon is cheaper to make than alu, that carbon frames cost like 20$ to make. That is raw bullsht stuck to the bottom of a rugged undersole of a hiking shoe. A bit like: carbon is so much better than aluminium and steel.
Fair arguments on Europe V Taiwan carbon frames but considering limited numbers, higher wages and likely a lower actual skill / experience level it is not surprising.
In other words, yes, you might be able to get a frame for a hundred or even two hundred less than what I listed. You might also get a better deal on shipping costs (particularly if you order more frames and are not sharing a container with someone else's products). What I am aiming for here are defensible numbers that don't underestimate the actual costs (and, frankly, there are costs that assuredly I haven't included here, simply because I haven't been through the complete process myself). For instance, I haven't included any costs for marketing or distribution or warehousing or travel/lodging/quality control/etc. I'm sure a number of people who have gone through the process will argue that, if anything, I am underestimating the costs.
I have written an in-depth feature story that will go live in the near future. We felt that adding it to a video of this length would be a bit of overkill today (to be honest, I wasn't sure how many people would sit down and watch a video of this length--stoked to see that you and others did), but it's coming and it goes into greater detail about this and other aspects of the story. Cheers.
That being said, It would be nice if they showed where those numbers came from.
I think you could be getting 'fed a line' by the engineers etc though in terms of costs and wildly over-estimating some which makes things look although the bike brands are getting a hard time of things - As I say I have access to a few trade prices and the one infront of me sees a £1600ish RRP frame sold to bike shops for just under £870, its a custom frame, not an open design, its well respected and reviewed and has a 2 year warranty - Your ballpark figures suggest this isn't possible as we have to assume the distributor is making at least 20% at the end of the day.
The bike industry is a strange place - customers seem to think manufacturers shouldn't make a profit and constantly probe aspects of the industry, in opposition to this the industry tells its customers 'you would be better off putting the money on lottery tickets' yet they remain in the industry rather than leaving.
I am personally not upset by the idea that a brand could be selling a product purchased for $500 to a shop for $1500 - that's business, some idiots will pay $1000 for a handbag worth $20 or T-shirt for $100 worth $2.00 but that seems to be accepted and 'OK'
Also the idea that it is 'hard; to start a bike brand, I would expect nothing less, but is it any harder to produce any product overseas and bring it to market? I imagine much easier than some infact.
Look forward to seeing the feature-story and thank you for the reply.
youtu.be/UbZR33dF_x4
To everyone else... Remember, when you buy a bike, you are paying for more than the bike... Warehouse space, utilities, transportation from the harbor to your warehouse... Equipment to run the place... payroll for staff... All of that, and a whole lot more, goes into that "outrageous price" that people complain about..
Vernon, showed you guys the first steps, get that suitcase full of money and make your millions...
It wont be $180 though that's for sure, you can get a monarch for the same price as a member of the public from Bikediscount.
I suppose the video needs to be taken more as educational entertainment than factually correct which is something that I guess is impossible as it would involve allowing the general public to know private information.
Excellent work, Vernon and crew.
My price-list example was to dispute the fact that a custom frame is much more expensive than the open market offerings where my example is actually cheaper than the open market estimate.
1. "you can ship a full container for about $5000 (a big one) so that is pretty OTT, unless they are including duty etc.".
"Unless". Your reasoning already has a caveat.
2. "They added $100 for shipping each frame, you can ship a full container for about $5000 (a big one) so that is pretty OTT"
Getting the bikes into a 40' can is only one step. There is the boxing, shipping and handling, warehousing, before that and after the container has landed and then all the way to the point of assembly.
3. "In the video the manufacturers quote sub $300 and they then cost north of $600, astro appear to quote $270 for the carbon frame and they use $800 as an example if they are going to cost things at least be in the ballpark or explain why it suddenly doubles."
Shit bikes are $300. The average price (Pivot, etc.) is obviously higher.
4. "According to this PB costing that isn't physically possible? "
PB is just giving an example.
5. "This is looking more like an article to show the public how crap the bike industry has it, with made up figures to back that up"
It was in fact a video that illustrates that simply showing up with a suitcase full of money does not mean you can easily create a LT bike brand.
Take it for what it is, not for what you are assuming it to be.
You are putting your faith in an off the cuff PB estimate of costs based on almost no realistic costed information over a sheet of paper I can guarantee you I have physically in front of me?
The PB article is perfect - There are no issues at all with all of the assumptions that have been made which I have attempted to question based on actual figures - 'Astro' are 'Shit - Pinkbike is physics.
As someone involved with manufacturing in Asia, I will 100% agree with having QC on the ground at your factory partner being hugely important. It's hard to put a price on having problems avoided or managed up front before anything ends up in your US or EU warehouse. Once you've taken delivery of the goods they are yours to sell, for better or worse.
All I know is that my company does business in China, I visit Shenzhen on a regular basis, and I can imagine that PB is not far off from what they claim. Your magic piece of paper is only one example, of a brand you've told us nothing about, with no idea as to their actual profit margin or invested costs in the frame. What you've said could very well be true and I'll even grant that it is. But, to assume that every bike manufacturer operates like the one on your piece of paper is ill founded and baseless.
Great video guys, seriously well done and good job from all the contributors being so open
One issue though... it is "al-you-min-ee-um
I have seen the same in previous companies I have worked in. Exploit those under you for your profit. It's capitalism.
There are some however who keep their costs competitive and don't exploit those below. I bet the head honchos at YT are not nearly making as much as the biggies.
Thanks for all the interesting insights from your position. And for taking the time to explain your experiences in the face of, well, the PB comments section. It has been good to read.
...like Knolly, or Transition, but you can't name names. Of course, understood.
What was your PB username again?
More in depth articles and bike reviews are needed.
Oh, and regarding Pivot - I've dealt with Chris directly and he's a good guys who's will to go the extra mile to make a better bike.
@Racer951 If you have any more magic pieces of paper, maybe you can share them with tantrumcycles so he may have an easier go of making his dream work, eh?
And respect online, man... have you ever considered why someone deserves respect? How can you expect it when you don't expose your personality? I can start another account and using my "know enough to sound like I know everything" start telling everyone "it's like that" cuz I work for a bike company. Please assume I am worth respecting. Respect is something rappers want for being a pimp rapping something irrelevant to 99% of people listening to him.
So as you dug yourself into a hole, no, no respect for you. I never got any. Nor I expected it. Because you always dig yourself into a hole after an online argument lasting longer than 3 rants. Unless... that's entertaining for you... like it is for me
Those magic pieces of paper with numbers and dollar signs??? Please share.....
Would you like their details so you can get them to negotiate prices on your behalf or something?
nsmb.com/articles/5211-the-untold-story-of-absolute-evil
The thing about all the prices are that there are too many variables to make an accurate 10 minutes video of all cases. It s true that most catalog frames are cheaper than most "custom" frames.But people would be surprised by the amount of large brands that use catalog frames, sometimes with maybe a top tube switch to make it look different. I can walk around Eurobike and see the same catalog frame from Fairly in 5 different booths, some of them pretty large.
Frame costs can vary considerably. My frames use mostly "catalog" tubes, lowering the price, but I had to open a mold for a proprietary seat tube and DT, raising the price. My frames have some extra linkage and bolt on drop out components, raising the price. Due to low initial quantity, I am also using all CNC parts, not forgings, lowering up front costs for molds, but raising per unit cost.
Not to mention quantity. The variables above cab add up to +/- US$200 per frame. Easily. In Aluminum.
For carbon, the main drawback for a small guy starting a custom brand is mold cost. The per frame price is good, but the mold cost is high and has to be amortized over a LOT of bikes. A lot more than I'm looking to sell this year....
I think it would be very interesting to see what everybody (bike brands) pays from each factory. I wonder what the disparity is when a frame company makes frames for 10 different brands.....probably not likely to see this info.....
I did exactly this as a side project while building consumer electronics in Taiwan. 100% custom steel frames, 853 tubes, MOQ of 1 (one) piece. $43. I ran 4 totally different design in the same batch from standard double-diamond setups to custom bent double top-tube/chainstays rigs. Prices?
$26 and $43 per frame.
Yes. Forty-three and Twenty-six US Dollars. I still have the receipts for the taxman.
Granted it cost me another $150 each to have them shipped DHL to my door in California. And these were low tolerance, singlespeed, naked steel, no braze-on frames as I wanted to do 100% of the detail and finish work myself in the garage. But these were done entirely over email with only drawings passed back and forth digitally.
devansdesign.com/personal/#/framebuilding
If you are trying to build a race-grade ultralight or bomber XC or downhill rig your mileage may vary, but you absolutely can get one-off frames for less than the cost of a *single tube* locally. (For further reference I built my kid a co-pilot frame from cheapo tubes bought from a US based framebuilding supplier and the raw parts were $60, not even including brazing materials and the like.)
Globalization folks. It's real.
Would you be willing to share the factory name or is it something you would prefer to keep quiet for business reasons?
Do Reynolds have a production facility over in china, are they really using Reynolds tube? Or are we being sold a bullshit story by Reynolds in the uk etc.
Maybe it is down to quantity of tubes sold. If Reynolds are selling huge amounts in Taiwan the prices will be much lower than to a small UK frame builder who only buys a few tubes.
Or maybe they make the tubes in Taiwan. It would make sense having your manufacturing plant close to the biggest source of your sales to save on transport costs.
I spoke to 2 guys, one makes own frames (not Antidote
I built my Antidote using bikecomponents.de. Waited out for a Christmas sale an got most parts just a notch over what Anti could give me for a complete package, with the absolute best of their intentions.
The componets bit is interesting because many shops complain that they get parts for same prices as bikecomponents sells them on the website. One Swedish shop got an answer from main European vendor of a certain S company - "you pay 30-40% more because rich Swedes are willing to pay more". No, not because you order 5% of what large online store pays. The tyre prices are insane. My friend sold me Hans Dampf for 360SEK, sale out, no margin, just take it. Same tyre costs 340SEK on bikecomponents. They also can't have more than 5% margin on S...
I have only ever bought 2 full bikes and they were my first MTBs in the early 90s. Everything since had been frames. I don't see the fun in buying something off the shelf. I digress.
Back on topic - it would be interesting to see what these Reynolds frames are made of. It would give you the chance to get your geo dialled before you made something with better quality tubing all round. If you could land a custom geo steel HT frame for a few hundred pounds it would be worth a go.
I wonder if they could also make steel full sus bikes...
Tell me about prices in Sweden. I used to use CRC and Bike.discount.de when I lived in Helsingborg. The price for a wheel build was also through the roof I got mine done at Soho bikes in London when I was over.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Sure, I can PM their website as I pretty quickly decided I didn't want be I the business of making one off customs for friends on the weekend. You can actually grab the mfg name off the drawings posted on my webpage if you look hard enough.
A quick summary of my personal experience first:
I am a mechanical engineer and industrial designer with a decade's experience of working high and low volume production in Asia. I also built a single frame from scratch in college and taught shop classes, including welding and brazing. I'm not great, but I can build.
A few years ago I was in my local hotel in Taipei when the hoteliers, who I all new by name after months of stays, asked if I wanted passes to the same show I the video / article. Apparently some Germans hadn't shown up and I looked enough like a Hans to scam his materials. Awesome.
I spent a full 2 days of meandering he convention floor, which you really cannot get the scale of in the video, it is the size of a sports stadium and *packed* with every tier of vendor and possible piece of bikey crap. After a while I thought what we all think and figured I could get some frame designs I'd been napkin sketching built for me. I wanted specifically to use steel so I could rework it at home with an acetelyne torch and do fussy NAHBS style braze ons and internal routing.
I went to all 7 (only!) builders doing steel frames. The vast majority of frame shops are doing aluminum and krabon. 3 of those had 100pc MOQs per design, 2 had 20pc MOQs, and 2 would do whatever. One of those had far far better welds than the other and was proudly showing naked frames. We will call it LB for now.
D5: hi, what's your MOQ?
LB: piece, no problem
D5: How about for custom designs?
LB: 1 piece, no problem just send us a picture.
D5: Oh, I will send you CAD and 2D drawings, but really 1 piece special order?
LB: Drawing even better, MOQ is one. For you, one piece, easy.
D5: Really? How much for this frame, one piece hit special order? (Points to standard road frame.)
LB: twenty six.
D5: Wait 26 what? USD? (Mind is racing... there is no currency I the world where the number 26 is an appropriate price for a custom steel frame of any quality.)
LB: $26 US. Just send us the drawings or the picture.
D5: Ok, ok. How about this one? (Points to dirt jumper with excellent welds on the ISO disc plate hanger and the seatstay. It's a tricky weld based on wall thickness disparity and the dimes are just perfectly stacked. Tiny HAZ, no edge pooling, good penetration. Impressed.)
LB: That one is $30US. Custom easy.
D5: GREAT. We will be in touch! (Grabs all the promotional materials from this booth.)
From there it was a month of emails back and forth. Once they seemed committed I started asking for more weird stuff, all over email. At this point it's clear I want just frames with no paint and no brazing, but I want them made well.
D5: how much for single butted tubes, Reynolds? LB: oh, cost up, cost up. Very expensive.
D5: I understand. Please provide the quote.
LB: special order from Taiwan (they mfg in China). We have to check. (2 days pass.)
And now this is a direct copy/paste from my quotation email. Note things evolved slightly from here.
1)Frame: Design #1-RAW
Top/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Headtube: Steel
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD40.20/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(2)Frame: Design #2-RAW
Top/Middle/Down Tube: Reynolds 525
Dewaxing Dropout
Quotation is USD38.40/SET F.O.B Shanghai.
(3)Fork: 700C Straight-leg/Segmented Style-RAW
Front Fork & Fork Stem: CR-MO
Forging Dropout
Quotation is USD15.50/PCS F.O.B Shanghai.
Another month of back and forth. One wire payment and a lot of forms, and two months later a box full of frames arrived on my doorstep. Welds were great, alignment was goodish, weight was acceptable, and the value remains astonishing.
Btw, the photos on your site are awesome.
And maybe we will see some Waki racers one day ;P
The prices are indeed 100% bonkers. Until the boxes showed up on my porch I was half convinced it was an elaborate scam. Especially the at point when I was wiring money to a shell company in the Cayman Islands, that was peak WTF for me. But yeah, it cost me By comparison the absolute cheapest tubeset I can buy from my framebuilder's supply goes $80, and that's for 8 tubes in a box with bubble wrap and no bottom bracket. There remains the possibility that I got lied to about "Reynolds" buy, but would that constitute getting ripped off? Not at those prices.
With shipping I ended up dropping $715 for 8x frames door to door, with half of that money going to shipping. Final cost of the frames after braze-ons, powdercoat, and manhours is much higher, so there's still a fudge factor in there. Still, I'm pretty sure if I'd asked for standard details and basic paint it's be another $5 at most.
In general I think the company I worked through is squarely in the Walmart bikes business. But the reality is the women (mostly) that weld bikes all dang day are just good at their craft. If you give them better materials and better geometry they will make better bikes. Somehow the Chinese economy has enabled the VA for mitering, setup, welding, and cleanup to be all but free.
It remains months and months of back and forth in Chinglish and technical drawings to get a custom bike out, but the overall barrier to entry it pretty low in the grand scheme of things. Custom builders don't have that much to fear yet, but the slow march of globalization is brutal on commodity businesses.
Well at $715 they are still amazingly cheap, especially considering if you ordered 100pcs delivery via container would be reduced by a huge margin.
I expect this is the kind of factory that makes the on-one inbred frames and similar, or as you say a lower specification of bike that you would find in wallmart type shops. I wonder what a 'modern' mtb hardtail would cost for them to produce.
I think what you have also opened up is something I have seen before myself - A company using China to produce the product with warehousing / finishing (prep, paint whatever) taking place in Taiwan allowing a 'made in Taiwan' stamp to avioid EU dumping duty - Im not sure what duty is like in the US for chinese parts though.
It looks like the numbers would stack up really well given you could sell them in sufficient quantity. Is there that much of a demand for steel hardtails these days? Whenever I am out riding you see maybe one or two hardtails but 95% of bikes are plastic and Al squishy bikes (maybe this is just living in Surrey where everyone apart from me is a stockbroker or dentist).
I suppose if sold globally and heavily marketed yourself you could scratch a living off it but you have additional shipping and import tax costs. The other was would be to do it as a joint venture with people in different countries.
If I were doing it I would make a few frames for mates as a "project" rather than turning it into a business.
I enjoyed this, and all these knowledgeable and opinionated comments. It's a good day to be a bike rider with an internet connection.
But again, remember, you need this spine, nobody is interested in outfitting himself in Canyon swag. Would I like a UNNO wallet? Damn fkng right I would
Side note: how would a carbon wallet work? Would the center move on a pivot, or flex like a seat stay? Better yet, I think it would eat all of your cash and credit, just like everything else carbon fiber.
Same for oakley, I'm not sure those glasses cost more than 30$ but retail for +100, or even 200. Of course there are all the production cost (and LOTS of marketing), but still.
Anyway, I think when you see any piece of cloth or accessory sold in 3, 4, 5 or more colorscheme, with various, "technical" fabrics, many different parts requiring a lot of sewing, you can bet it's profitable, or else those wouldn't be that intricate.
Where were you all those years ago when we thought the same thing? It sure wasn't and still isn't as easy. I can attest everything you went through and learned is spot on. You found the right factory and people to talk to, that's for sure.
Nothing ever (ever!) goes as planned. Quality control can be had but you really need to partner with the right factory and component brands - they are not all created equal. Final assembly here in Canada has made things a bit easier for us to control the overall process but still face the numerous challenges you uncovered.
You think us manufacturers would be mad you pulled the curtain back but we, at least, don't mind. As with most people we chat with at bike shows, demos, or just out on the trail we are happy to share the story. Most of them - even the die-hard brand loyalists who would never buy our bikes - are just pumped to hear a story about a few riders, like them, who took the bull by the horns and built something awesome. We may be poor now and poorer in the future but we are having an awesome time building up bikes and hearing positive feedback from happy customers is pretty rewarding.
Keep up the great work,
Transparency has become an important selling point for many businesses (Patagonia, for example, or maybe Enve) in the last few years... consumers want to know where their products are coming from. Just seeing glimpses of Chris @ Pivot and his team pouring over the latest design is a huge feather in that brand's cap. If I was Pivot, why not tell that story? The more I know about a product and the hard work that's gone into it the more I'm likely to be impressed and spend my money. I bet a lot of other mountain bikers feel the same way.
Ten years in Taiwan here. Just trying to get ABC and D exactly how you want them, in any shop or situation, isn't happening.
That is what they all alluded to without being too brazen or obnoxious.
In Taiwan, there is a grey area around all manufacturing. It's not just black and white, right or wrong.
"Yes, we did it how you said... most of it."
The way I always summarise this culture is, they only want to pay 10% to get 90% of what they ideally want. The law of diminishing returns. No Taiwanese is going to pay that extra 90% to make the product 10% better.
From what I've heard, China is much worse. They even think they own Taiwan FGS!
#gunshow#iamnotgay#notthatthereisanythingwrongwithit
@vernonfelton: addressing your concerns about video length: in the age of online media overload I have a short attention span and don't watch many videos in full; so many riding edits and I just skip to the hot bits. This was totally different though: excellent journalism and presentation and had me transfixed the whole way through. I applaud your decision to make the video, how well it has been executed, and encourage many more pieces like it.
I do have to say, your clickbaity titles and thumbnails stick out like a sore thumb amongst the rest of PB's content - the thumbnail of "2 Reasons Why Your Disc Brakes Don't Work" especially horrendous, making me feel like i'd stumbled into a 12 year old's youtube recommendations, and the title of this one being a complete lie... The content is rad and everyone is interested, doesn't need to be clickbaity to get people to look at it.
But remember there is still that catalog bike. This is the way companies like Cube started. There was such a huge demand for reasonably affordable bikes, they just needed to deliver. And this kickstarted the company to eventually develop their own stuff. It's been steady and gradual but now they have stuff being ridden at the highest level. But then I think it is harder to start like that now. Back in the day people just needed something decent to ride that fits their budget and riding style. But now that market is already being catered for, it is much harder to stand out. And of course if you have views and preferences very different from what is currently on offer, you are not likely to find it in the catalog. But you know what, just publish the catalog and we'll help you pick a bike
Personally I believe in a healthy production setup where stuff is done locally by properly paid employees under labour and environmental conditions I believe in. And that they still manage to pump out decent and affordable stuff. Orange (bikes), Hope (components), Tacx (trainers and tools), Lupine (lights), Magura (brakes and suspension though they recently shifted some manufacturing overseas). I'm sure they have companies like that in North America too, like Devinci etc. Yes setting up a company like that is hard too. But so is doing all your own production in a garage and so is doing all your management in a remote place. I'd much rather work at Orange or Hope.
Not meant to discourage you. You're journalists and as such it has value no matter the outcome. But other than that, I much rather see you ride your bikes than become a manager.
One thing not covered in this video, that is a huge factor, is the cost of compliance testing. It's not just the monetary cost of testing, but also the time it adds to the entire process. Trek, Specialized and other reputable brands literally destroy frames in every size before they ever go into production. They also test the paint, rubber and virtually every other touch-point for lead and other cancer causing substances. Those $300 carbon frames on Amazon - do you think they've been subjected to a battery of destructive testing? Have they tested their paint or clear-coat for lead? Maybe 1 frame in 1 size...maybe.
The assertion that all the marketing "BS" is driving-up the price of bikes is a gigantic myth. The net profit margins on complete bikes or even frames is not what you think it is. Most bicycle companies spend less than 5% on marketing. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the lack of marketing investment by bicycle companies (component manufacturers included) is part of the reason why the bicycle industry isn't growing, and hasn't for more than 15 years. That lack of growth means less units are being produced...and that does nothing to drive volume, which leads to lower manufacturing costs. Let's also not forget that without the marketing "BS" you'd have almost nothing to write about...or complain about. You'd have a boring bike, painted black and your rad suspension system would simply be called "3 pivot suspension."
Knowing all the hardwork/personal time that goes into it only furthers my support in these smaller outfits!
A+ work!
One little insight: For us, given the time change here in Canada, communication can be a challenge. It can work to your benefit, fire off an email at 11pm, wake up to an answer. Not a problem if not urgent. It can also mean a lot of back and forth at 2am. You learn to ask very direct questions, if there is ambiguity in the question, there is room for it in the answer. Not right or wrong, just a different way to communicate that's all.
cheers,
It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% about profit margin reduction, btw. How much scrap and re-work are companies racking up? How up to date are their manufacturing and quality control aspects? How much lean manufacturing do they do? How can they partner with other arms of the industry (component suppliers + frame companies, for purposes of integration, for example) to deliver a great product for less? You can streamline your processes, from design to manufacturing, and reduce or steady price while keeping your margins the same, or maybe even better.
The bike industry as a whole needs to stop figuring out "how much can we charge" and "how can we deliver products more effectively (faster, less expense, more reliable) without passing so much of the cost down to the customer."
2011: A comapny's top offered 120 mm alu frame, 5" trail bike, full XT build (der's, shifters, brakes/rotors, hubs; truvative crank, Richey seapost/stem/bar), with Fox (32/Float) suspension was $3,000. A to notch part spec on an Alu frame, which I still own. I bought it as someone in the industry at the time, so I paid a lot less for it, but let's stick to the sticker price.
2017: If I want a bike from the same company, in the same category, that has an XT build with Fox suspension, I can't get it in an aluminum frame- I've got to jump up to their carbon offering, whose price is: $5,680. So, if you take into account inflation from 2011, they added $2,300 to the price to switch from carbon to alu (which 90% of riders don't really need) to offer the same level parts. You can't get a nice bike for 3k from the big companies anymore- they're the ones who should be able to flex their volume muscles and reduce pricing! That's where I see a problem.
No wonder people are flocking to YT, Rose, and Canyon. If I ever get a new bike again (I honestly probably won't, PB buy/sell is my wheelhouse), it will be from a direct company like them. At least I can make sense of their prices. 4K for the YT Jeffsy ALU 1 or $2600 for the ALU 2 is so much more fair than most of the "big" companies out there.
Hi Vernon. Nicely done. I was just thinking of writing an article on what it's like to start a bike company out of your...uh thin air. I'm am living the life of your video. I've made a few of my own documenting the process:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOYDdguXtpc&t=1s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=icWIGDHl6sA&t=100s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tedHE-HrUBA
For everyone nitpicking about pricing accuracy and so on, guess what? It is all over the board and a bit of a minefield to sort and find the right fit. I think this video presents a general case of the experience and it's pretty spot on form my experience.
I'll be flying over soon as the first frames get welded up
cheers,
Brian
ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb13128608/p5pb13128608.jpg
Dude....that bike is tits.
Eventually someone from Taiwan will do a Light Bicycle for frames and sell a great factory direct product for a third of MSRP.
I have nothing but good things to say about it.
I'm not saying it is anywhere as good as what Robotbike.co is doing. But it should at least be much cheaper. The good thing is though that I think their tubes are filament wound. And even though that is a very good and controlled process, you can't get all fibres in the longitudinal direction which I think is ideal (without having done the math, mind you). Pulltrusion gets you that whilst being much cheaper.
Also keep in mind that you want a way to control and monitor your glued connection. If you sell it to a customer, it needs to be done properly and reliably.
Getting back to 3D printing. I suspect there will be more companies doing this in the future. www.métier-vélo.com/blog/category/all
www.rapidman.co.nz/news
And on the same time, the bigger companies can't really talk down that Chinese / Taiwanese eBay Frame / Wheelset, given that perhaps their product comes from the same area of manufacture, let alone even the same factory???
Call me old fashined, but bikes are getting more expensive all the time, heck look at KTM (Bicycles). The constant increase in price is not proportionate with any if at all increase of most anyones salary at their jobs!
- Rant, whatever, over...
... where is my Helmet - time to go for a spin.
But you've got to remember bike manufacturers have amped up their marketing BS and enough people have fallen for it giving them enough scope to push up prices and hope no one notices. But also Finance is a big thing. So many bikes (like cars) are sold with finance these days bike manufacturers almost have free reign to scale prices dramatically as people are getting more and more used to credit. I seem to remember something like 93-6% of cars bought today are either financed, leased PCP or hire purchase and i doubt bikes are far behind.
What it all boils down too is us. The purchaser. We've clearly shown we're gullible (dare i say ignorant) enough to believe them and are happy to pay, over time, much more than what the bike is truly worth. Its evident in the massive disparity between new prices and used prices. Its not the manufacturers fault at all. Its the naivety of customers that they're merely cashing in on.
tfwiki.net/wiki/File:AoE_shuhua_milk.jpg
Just one of the many sneaky and sly (clever?) tactics the marketing bods use to manipulate you.
Hmmm....let me see. Well i've been here for the past 12 years so yeah, petty good I guess! The trails and the riding crews are still as awesome as ever.
Now, how to become a "fixer".
What could be doable taking onboard everthing would be for a race team to be a brand....following that, maybe riders 'pay' to be on the race team...X amount of dollars gets you a bike and race support for a year or whatever....following that train of thought, mountain bike tour operator may benift as they purchase large numbers of bikes.
But yeah... great article saved me alot of effort...
"I don't overlook this one down here that was way worse that's like the slow kid went to shop class and went crazy with the world in the bandsaw it just made the longest black spike that he could we need a blue tit to enduro bike all the Sun what are these people thinking it's ridiculous"
To put into perspective, a contact lense, which requires a significantly more sterile environment, significantly more varied machinery (several prescriptions = different specs) , and significantly tighter tolerances.....average retail on a pair is about $60... it costs Johnson and Johnson less than 6 cents to manufacture a pair of contacts....and that's including labor, manufacturing costs, material costs, transportation costs...everything.... The biggest expense of making contacts? the advertising costs. It's the reason Arizona tea is still 99 cents despite inflation, etc....they have ZERO advertising.
Nobody said it was easy....cheaper than you think on the other hand....
Here, if the welder notices something which might not be right on the drawing he will mention it to his boss and they will work out a solution to it.
In Taiwan the welder will just weld up the whole batch to the drawing. (Perfectly and uniformly by the way) There isn't the culture there of bringing issues to the people higher up, they have more of a top down way of working than a back and forth. That is why you need to be there to babysit the batch through production otherwise you might have the same issue with every frame in the batch.
The same is true from the factory to the designer. You can come back to them after receiving a batch with issues saying "Why have you done it like this?" and they will say "Yes, we thought that was wrong but we made them anyway."
The only reason it is not done that way is the cost in the west is so much higher. If we could work with a local company for even 1.5 times the Taiwan price we would seriously consider it.
Of course it is a decade later now. Has the cost of labour increased this much in the West or has it dropped in the far East? I'd expect it to be the other way around actually.
What I do notice at least here on PB, that some people have come to expect that if a bike is expensive, it'd better be made out of carbon. So if a nice (non electric) bike with an aluminium frame with a RRP of over 3k is published here, you're sure to come across some remark like "no carbon, not interested". This may even be the reason Intense closed shop recently. So could it be that the shift to the far east mainly comes from the lower costs of producing carbon frames? If they can get away with worse environmental and worker conditions, that would definitely be a huge saving.
Your original comment was about a company doing the same thing a company in Taiwan does which is take other people's design and manufacture it for them using their tooling and machinery so the bike company doesn't have to invest in all of that stuff. You can't go to Orange and ask them to build your bike, they are too busy building their own bikes.
There are companies who do that manufacturing for others business model but the cost of working with them rather than their Taiwanese competitors is much higher.
The question then is of course, would we be more than 1.5 times more expensive than the brand that has their stuff welded in the far east? I honestly don't know as there is little comparison with other high quality steel and titanium frames welded over there. I do realize Van Nicholas was particularly cheap and somehow On-One can be insanely cheap with titanium. Then again Stanton and Kingdombike have their frames welded in China too and they aren't cheap by any means.
The other stuff I mentioned may have their place in a response to this article, but probably not in this particular discussion indeed.
It sounds like a rad bike shop. I bet there were some crazy bikes built that you couldn't have bought anywhere else.
The only way I think they can keep welding here is if they can automate it. When I was in the Tacx factory there was just a guy with two welding jigs and a robot. He just put the parts in place, went to the other jig and while he removed the other product (the frame for a trainer) and put the new parts in place, the robot was welding at the first jig. Now I honestly don't recall whether these were point or line welds but it was quick. Robots have come a long way since so with enough investment it should be possible to weld up a simple frame. Not something like Orange does, but just tubes together should be doable.
I digress again, but not completely. When Tacx was going through some tough times in their early years, there was someone who told Koos Tacx "I'll buy all frames for cable reels that you can produce." So that kept him in business, producing stuff for other industries. When I visited the factory/office/distribution (maybe 15km from the shop I worked) there was one robot continuously bending tubes and dropping them in a container. It was only after I heard Koos' story that I understood these were frames for cable reels.
Also thanks Pivot for stepping up, appreciate their honesty about where it comes from. Too many brands hide behind in dodgy "percentage of made in" terms that allow to claim incorrect origins. (Cough you roady italians).
If pivot try sell me that hey watch there contrator all the time are come they frame crack like egg shell.
One of are rider has 3 broken frame mach 5, no service from the distributor on the edge, Wow spend 10,000.00$ on a crap frame with 2 years of warranty.They should be life warranty for that price. Not even a demo bike for waiting.
Bike carbon business is complete off track.
You have a motorcycle for that price and your not gone break frame or shox in a couple month of use.
The carbon bike industries is very over rated
The welders I've dealt with in Taiwan are as good, as well trained and as dedicated as I've see anywhere in the world.
Geography is not a limitation.
This isn't a yes or no question (I understand it's cheaper)...provide a number. 10% greater profit? 20%? 30%?
Reading this, what comes to my mind is that I'm realising that I'm doing CG pictures for some guy I hardly ever see and while I do my job well, I must say that I sometime feel like "why do I bother ?", as if it's a human thing : If you're not there, if the guy working for you is just a name on skype or a phone number in your smartphone, you're not really showing respect, so why would he respect you back ?
The little errors and mistakes in my pictures are easily corrected, though its always a waist of time, but if I were a frame builder those wouldn't pass QC.
Their dampers are probably still made in house though.
@Vernonfelton could you do a video on companies who have done this?
Also, if you want a modern frame (hydroformed tubes etc) you need to either have local partners who can do that kind of work or massive upfront investment in machinery and tooling totalling hundreds of thousands of dollars. Otherwise your bike will have straight, round tubes and look like it just stepped out of 1998 or a homebuilder's garage.
@Patrick9-32: I supposed it depend what you are after. For me I just want an awesome bike to ride. I am not overly bothered about what others ride. Which is why making it for yourself is the way to go. If it is any good people will want them and be prepared to pay for your time.
They did exactly this, probably have local partners (this region in Italy seems to be heavily industrialized), do welding themselves. They sell alu frames (with the option of geo customization) + shock for 1800 EUR. Certainly more expensive than bike from Taiwan, but not that bad either. I seriously consider buying eu-made bike next time.
You would then need business premises, multiple machines to manipulate tubing (when do you learn to use them?) fixtures for making frames, fixtures for checking frame tolerance, etc etc the list goes on and that's all so you can make a handful of frames unless you are getting staff and then things are really getting expensive.
There is a reason the only people building fames in the UK right now (except orange) are making literally tiny amounts of them, BTR number their builds on Instagram and checking are around 128 frames, Starling closed order books after initial orders and the other guys literally make boutique custom - 120 odd frames in several years only pays the bills if you work like BTR do, if you go for mass market you would be on your arse.
The difference between home shops and mass produced bicycles is huge.
I would think you would get a better product from a smaller manufacturer who builds in house rather than something that is mass produced.
For me an interesting company to throw in the mix is Nicolai. They probably produce a good amount of frames a year and are definitely boutique and very high quality.
Nicolai produce quite a few bikes but are essentially a German Orange bikes, much more industrial than you are giving them credit for and a huge amount of money required to start-up (A million in CNC machinery at least, just to start)
Nicolai are awesome, they're high on my list of desirable bikes. I guess they started small though and got bigger slowly and with demand.
I would always go boutique builder (who designs and builds their own frames) over a frame that is designed by one company and made by another. If you are building your own product it is personal whereas if you make it for a job, it is just something that gets you a pay cheque.
I digress... but agree if you want to get something to market quickly then Taiwan is your go to place. However you need to invest time and effort to get what you want.
Yeah it's horses for courses on bikes. That's the beauty of them. We can all argue all day and no-one is right or wrong. As long as were all having fun it's all good banter. At least we aren't riding road bikes
also worth noting that a pivot frame my we'll be a very good option if you've got the dosh for one! Going by there QC standards out there????
I like learning about how the "sausage is made" and enjoyed this but would like to know more about how these factories work for the "real companies". That is the real story and a far more difficult one to report.
But I'm guessing the big bike brand names won't tell anyone what you want to hear: "Hard? No it is not. You just need the cash and the right people". That would be like giving their "know how" and then suddenly everyone is selling their own bikes. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of individuals out there with the right amount of money to do it. All in all, business is about money (even they tell you the opposite). With money you can "buy" (hire) a fixer, a quality control manager, an international broker, an office here and there, a warehouse... etc., and make it happen.
Everyone knows that money talks... you know it and, if you deny it... pretty sure you (as me) are part of the 95% population in the planet who thinks "all you need is love".
Cheers,
PS. Where is @WAKIdesigns when we need him??? haha
The thing I find hilarious is how hard do people expect it to be? They are making out its hard because you have to travel there to check QC or make sure things are right, no shit, isn't that how every business that manufacturers anything overseas works?
Google "Dominic Try-All Koxx #Hashtagg" and you'll see why. He screwed distributors over....because the Asian manufacturers didn't keep good on their promise. That's a gross oversimplification of the situation, but you get the idea.
and Don't call out just the Bicycle Industry. It works like this for ALL PRODUCTS. Shirts and Smart Phones too.
But in all seriousness, great video! Well done guys
It still doesn't explain why in the video they quote sub $300 and they then cost north of $600, if they are going to cost things at least be in the ballpark or explain why it suddenly doubles.
I call total bullshit on this one - I have a trade price infront of me for a bike in GBP I will use as an example, its RRP is £1600.00, trade price around £870 plus VAT. This isn't some open market frame with a cheap shock either, its a nice frame with top end shock - According to this PB costing that isn't physically possible?
Remember the brand in question is making a profit if they sell to me at £870, how much I couldn't say but I cant think less than 25% which is strangely enough about how much they have over calculated things in this video.
This is looking more like an article to show the public how crap the bike industry has it, with made up figures to back that up.
"BRUSSELS, Belgium – The European Commission has presented a proposal for a new method for calculating dumping on imports from countries where there are significant market distortions, or where the state has a pervasive influence on the economy. Does this mean that the 48.5% anti-dumping duty now in place for China made bikes exported to the European Union will not end by 2018?"
and it is not irrelevante , as normally the prices of a bike or a frame are fixed, it may vary a bit or the currency but are normally the same, and a bike or a frame coming from Taiwan or China to EU it doesn't pass by the US, it normally goes direct so the cost would be there , don't know about the US or other country as laws , taxes and Free-Market policy's are diffident everywhere
It is irrelevant as the USA has nothing to do with the EU and the video is based on a USA customer.
This is a great article, but there are so many variables. So many companies are getting carbon made in Vietnam now, which is a whole new story/video.
FUCT was pure brilliance. Still do.
I'm much more comfortable getting frames made in Taiwan.
and some of my videos I've been making on the process: um, minus the PB production values
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tedHE-HrUBA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOYDdguXtpc&t=1s
I think paying £10,000 for a carbon bike is crazy & very over priced. I don't want companies to fail I want them to curb their profits. Monetary crash soon because of greed.
These figures are made up.
Which brand? I used to work for a UK based multi-brand distributor & the real margin is not even CLOSE to 100%. In fact it it's not even that close to half that when talking high end brands.
You can buy a perfectly functional bike for transport for less than £400 (you can buy one for £100 if you want) it is your choice to be involved in a sport like MTB or high end road riding - surely that is the definition of a luxury item? - Something you don't need, you just want it.
" You believe what you want, keep working to pay these crazy prices",
what? how do you suggest i avoid their crazy prices?
" I ride 5 days a week because I won't fall for the lies."
what does the frequency of your rides have to do with anything, especially avoiding supposed lies, and also, which lies?
If you pay high prices you need to earn lots of money, ie work more.
I wont pay it so I can ride more, get it? If I paid £10k for a bike I'd need to work loads, which equals less time to ride.
The lies are what we are fed to make us believe these prices are ok.
"The lies are what we are fed to make us believe these prices are ok."
it's a free, competitive market. why hasn't someone come in and upset the whole game by offering bikes at 50% the cost of Canyon and YT's prices? they could make a killing that way, and dominate the whole market, running everyone else out of business.
the answer is they can't since there isn't enough margin to cut out of their profits. you're a conspiracy theorist, i'm done trying to convince you, you're just going to believe what you want to believe