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First Ride: Pinion's E-Drive System - A New Motor With an Integrated Gearbox

Jun 19, 2023 at 17:16
by Ralf Hauser  


Pinion, known for their gearbox drivetrains, is taking things to another level with an e-bike motor with integrated gearbox, opening the doors to a powertrain option that may well change the way we think about e-bike transmissions.

Under the name of MGU (Motor.Gearbox.Unit), Pinion unifies motor and gearbox in a single unit that simply should cater better to the needs of an e-bike, as well as the higher stresses it can put on components. Apart from the fact that you have the option to get rid of that pesky rear derailleur. With all e-bike necessary components that surround their MGU, Pinion is talking about their Pinion E-Drive System.

Historically, German company Pinion is not exactly the first to combine an e-bike motor with an integrated gearbox – two years ago, I rode around the Eurobike parking lot with a prototype of Valeo's Cyclee e-bike motor with an integrated gearbox that they developed together with Effigear. Since then however, and even though the system should be available by now, their entry into the mountain bike world has been eerily quiet. Nevertheless, seeing the Pinion E-Drive System close to production already with some established brands having built the first models around the system for their 2024 lineup is quite the big deal.

Pinion MGU E1.12
Motor:
• Torque: equivalent of 85Nm
• Weight: 4,100g
• Maximum Support: 400%
• Q-factor: 174mm
• Optimal cadence range: up to 120RPM

Gearbox:
• Gears: 12
• Gear Range: 600%
• Gear Jumps: 17.7%

Pinion MGU E1.9
Motor:
• Weight: 4,000g

Gearbox:
• Gears: 9
• Gear Range: 568%
• Gear Jumps: 24%

www.pinion.eu

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Pinion's story already started twelve years ago with the attempt to bring together what belongs together, as they like to say, coming up with a full-power electric motor and high-end gearbox with electronic shifting in a compact package – a powertrain. With hardware and software having been fully developed by Pinion, the MGU can be combined with a Pinion Longlife Chaindrive or belt drive system. For the belt drive, they are using Gates Carbon Drive components, a company they've partnered with for their regular gearboxes as well, a long time ago.

The MGU and the shifters are manufactured and assembled in Germany. Only a few of the less important parts are sourced outside of the EU. The cranks are at this point still produced in Taiwan.


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Motor.Gearbox.Unit

Pinion has started their development with a wear-free brushless electric motor for industrial applications made in Germany as a base and has optimized it by the use of more powerful magnets with a redesigned fit for e-bikes. Delivering a comparable drive torque of approximately 85Nm, the goal was to far exceed the strain and wear of cycling applications. Using the word comparable, because the power output of the Pinion MGU can't be exactly translated to regular systems when utilizing an internal gearbox.

A better value for comparison would be wheel torque – the power that actually reaches the wheel. For example, gears 1 to 4 of the Pinion MGU provide an under-drive and deliver up to 160Nm of torque. Therefore, talking about a ‘comparable drive torque' of approximately 85Nm serves only to put the MGU’s power output into context as an approximation for comparison’s sake.

A whole host of patented internal sensors continuously read the input torque, motor speed, the position of the shifting shaft and crank arms as well as the rider’s cadence, speed, and a bunch of other factors to ensure the most natural riding feel. The multi-sensor design notices even the tiniest inputs and smallest changes within the system while the special architecture of the micro controller further helps in increasing the efficiency of the system while simultaneously reducing the amount of heat generated during operation.


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Several versions of the MGU are available. The E1.9 comes with nine gears, the E1.12 with twelve gears, with the size of the magnesium die-cast housing with a Q-factor of 174mm not being much bigger than comparable mid-mounted full-power motors. Maximum assisted cadence maxes out at 120RPM and the system uses a 48V ecosystem.

The overall weight is coming somewhat close to the weight of ordinary e-bike mid-engine motors with separate transmissions. More on that later. The E1.9 is supposed to weigh 4,000 grams, has a gear range of 568% with gear range jumps of about 24%. First gear has a ratio of 1.82, fastest gear a ratio of 0.32.

The E1.12 is said to weigh 4,100 grams, has a gear range of 600% with gear jumps of about 17.7%. First gear also has a ratio of 1.82, fastest gear a ratio of 0.30.

Max input torque is 250Nm, maximum support 400% and maximum mechanical output is sitting at 600W. Supported speed is 25km/h in Europe. There are also versions for the S-Pedelec class, aptly named E1.9S and E1.12S, going up to 45km/h with a maximum mechanical output of 800W.

North American customers will have to wait until 2025 for Pinion to offer a version adapted to the rules and regulations of that market.


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MGU E1.12 with twelve gears.
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MGU E1.9 with ... you may have guessed it right ... nine gears.

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The MGU is not much bigger than a regular full-power motor.
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Simplon's frame incorporating the new powertrain.

Pinion's Smart.Shift technology has already been introduced on a Stromer urban bike, utilizing an electronically actuated gear box in conjunction with a hub motor on that bike model. A version of it was also recently spotted on Gamux' prototype downhill bike.

A lot of the features are the same for the E-Drive System, due to the integration of motor and gearbox, so some extra features could be introduced. Pinion is using the electronic TE1 E-Trigger Shifter for gear changes, having invested a considerable amount of time on the haptic feel and ergonomics of the shifters. Shifting with Pinon's gear box doesn't require a turn of the pedals. Thanks to Pinion’s hard- and software, gear shifting on a Pinion MGU-equipped e-bike is said to happen within a fraction of a second, is supposed to be very precise and feel smooth as butter – even under load.

As the Pinion MGU was developed as a unit, this means, for example, that the system always knows which gear its rider is in and adapts its power to the rider’s cadence to deliver a smooth, connected and seamless ride feel. Also, with the unit being sealed, the elements obviously don't have any effect on the shift quality over time. Total permitted system weight is up to 180kg and there's a two-year warranty for the MGU.

Since the system always knows what gear it's in, with what cadence you are pedaling and the speed you are going, it is not only able to adjust the motor's support but also the speed the motor is running at. This allows the E-Drive to run a semi-automatic shifting function that knows when it would be best to shift by indicating it on the display or it can execute a preselected shifting command with the Pre.Select and Start.Select features.

Pre.Select allows the system to automatically shift into the matching gear for your speed when coasting downhill according to a predetermined cadence, providing you with the right gear to get back onto the pedals without having to shift up or down first. Start.Select gives you the option for automatically shifting into a preselected starting gear after a full stop.

In case the e-bike's battery runs out of power, you can still shift about a 1,000 times with the remaining charge that's always left after a motor system shuts down. To sum it up, Pinion's E-Drive System claims that it can shift while riding, while being stationary and under load. It can shift for you, it can shift manually and it can quickly shift multiple gears at once.



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Electronic Pinion TE1 E-Trigger Shifter.
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Drive Modes

The Pinion E-Drive System offers four support levels: Eco, Flow, Flex and Fly. Eco is designed for maximum range, Fly at the other side of the spectrum delivers the highest power output. Flow and Flex are adaptive riding modes designed to be dynamic and to adapt the amount of support to every riding situation and the terrain the rider is facing.

A tuned starting aid helps to prevent wheel spin when setting off on loose climbs and a Boost Button on the handlebar controller can deliver the full power of the motor for a short amount of time, no matter what gear you're in. Additionally, all support modes can be tailored to riders’ individual preferences through the FIT E-Bike Control app.

There's also a Walk Assist function, one that can be set at a speed of up to 6km/h in the menu.

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Rotwild mounted the FIT Remote Display option.
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Four ride modes available.

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Settings, as well as other features like cadence or heart rate.
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Easy to navigate menu structure.

Furthermore, there's the option for manufacturers to pick between two (three, if you also count the Speed scenario for S-Pedelecs up to 45km/h) overall mapping profiles – Comfort and Performance – that match the individual e-bike’s intended purpose and characteristics best and show differences in the power curve for all four ride modes.

The Comfort setup is designed to provide a balanced, natural ride feel that, in the peaks, still offers less-trained riders a distinctly noticeable agility. This setup is best suited to commuting or touring purposes. So we can expect the Performance option to be the dominant setup on eMTBs for a more performance-oriented and dynamic power output.

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The two mapping profiles for bike manufacturers to choose from.
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In order to make the E-Drive System complete, Pinion has made FIT their strategic partner at an early stage in their development to deliver display, control and battery options and to give manufacturers the modularity and proven and reliable service infrastructure.

Among others, the FIT ecosystem includes the Ultracore range of batteries with 480, 720 and 960Wh options as well as a range extender. The Ultracore's form factor is the same by the way, so it will be easy to swap between different sizes when the bike manufacturers allow for that option. The regular charger uses 3A, a 4.8A fast charger is available. There's also a Long-Life-Mode that enables smart charging and increases the lifespan of the battery.

Multiple displays can be picked from, that all feature a uniform menu structure, no matter the size of the screen. Their system covers most of the basic information as well as navigation options when connected with Komoot.

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FIT Ultracore 720Wh battery.
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The battery's cover acts as the down tube guard as well.
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Locked with a key on Rotwild's R.X1000.

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Tidy.
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You can charge directly at the battery or through the external port.



App

Just like all the other big e-bike players have done by now, Pinion has developed the FIT E-Bike Control app together with FIT to allow for customization of ride modes and access features on the E-Drive System. With the help of a FIT Key Card, you can connect to your Pinion-powered e-bike with an individual ID that uses the Abus SmartX technology and provides a secure connection to the bike with a unique key. Also, scanning the QR code on the card with the app unlocks additional functions.

Through the app you can individualize the pre-configured setups of every support mode. Values like assist ratio, maximum torque, elasticity, and torque characteristics can be adjusted.


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Maintenance

Reliability is another important factor when it comes to drivetrains and Pinion is claiming a maintenance-free functionality for 10,000 kilometers.

Gears never have to be adjusted as they simply can't get out of line and due to the elimination of external shifting components, wear – especially under the higher loads of an e-bike motor – is greatly reduced. That's apart from the fact that the possibility of damaging an exposed derailleur (unless a manufacturer picks a chain tensioner in its place as a way to keep the chain taut on full-suspension bikes) is eliminated. As the whole system is contained in a closed and sealed housing, dust, mud and water is kept out. Maintaining the bike therefore becomes easy, especially when it is equipped with a Gates Carbon Drive belt drive system that doesn't require lubrication. After 10,000km a ten-minute oil change is required, that's it.

Issues are taken care of through authorized dealers from the established FIT network. Firmware updates also need to be taken care of there, with the help of a FIT Diagnose Tool.

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Rotwild opted for a single-speed chain tensioner at the rear wheel.
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Weight Comparison

With the majority of the weight centered around the bottom bracket area for a balanced weight distribution, the elimination of derailleur and cassette obviously has some major advantages.

The total weight for the 12-speed E1.12 (4,100g as mentioned) MCU with rear hub sprocket, chain and chain tensioner is a few hundred grams heavier than compared to a regular full-power e-bike motor together with derailleur and cassette (using SRAM's X0 AXS T-Type for this calculation). Depending on which motor you look at, between 615 to 865g for a setup with chain and 500 to 750g for a belt drive. If compared to a Shimano XT setup with a 10-51 cassette, add another 100g to the difference. If a regular bike design requires or uses a lower chain tensioner, like most of the high pivot bikes out there do, you can deduct about another 130g from the overall weight differential.

However, and probably more importantly, the system saves about 800 grams of unsprung mass at the rear wheel for a chain setup and about 730g for the belt version. For outright suspension performance, that is a pretty big number either way.

If you compared the weight of the MGU to the use of a regular motor with Rohloff's Speedhub hub shifting system, as Nicolai is using on variations of their G1 or GT1 EBOXX models for example, Pinon's unit is about equal in total weight with the lightest motors around and can save about 1,400g of unsprung mass at the rear wheel.

You can use a rear hub with regular Shimano driver to work with the single speed setup, using spacers. There is however a single speed hub option that Pinion has developed together with DT Swiss available.


Bike Models


Pinion has partnered with a bunch of early adopters, although more of them on the urban and touring side of things rather than mountain bike. As for the eMTB sector, Rotwild, Simplon and Bulls will have mountain bikes with Pinion's E-Drive System for 2024 in their lineup.

Simplon is combining the Pinion E1.12 MGU with a Gates belt drive in the Rapcon Pmax Pinion 150 and Rapcon Pmax Pinion 170 for 2024. Both bikes utilize full carbon frames and are available in four sizes with two color options. As the name suggests, the Rapcon Pmax Pinion 150 features 150mm of travel front and rear. The Pmax Pinion 170 has a 170mm fork and offers 165mm of travel in the rear. With its flexible battery system you'd be able to get up to a ridiculous capacity of 1,430Wh when using an extender. Thanks to Simplon's build options, you can trim their spec to your liking with prices starting from €8,999.

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Simplon Rapcon Pmax Pinion 150.
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Simplon Rapcon Pmax Pinion 170.

Bulls is launching six models in total, two of them in the eMTB market. The top model is the Vuca Evo AM2 for €8,499 with carbon main frame and a 1.8" headset standard that features the Pinion E1.12 with Gates belt drive. Kinematics are based around a new concept for them, called the 4-Link Swingarm, mixing the idea of single and 4-pivot designs with 150 mm of travel. The Vuca Evo AM1 comes with a lower spec and a price tag of €7,499. Both should be available around the beginning of next year with either a 720Wh or massive 960Wh battery (add €200 for that option).

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Bulls Vuca Evo AM2.
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Bulls Vuca Evo AM1.


Rotwild's R.X1000 comes in two versions. The Pro with a price tag of €9,999 and Ultra for €11,999. Both feature 150mm of travel front and rear and come in four sizes. They will also offer a R.C1000 model, which will be a full-suspension mix of commuter and mountain bike.
Full launch of the bikes is expected closer towards the end of the year.





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It should come as no surprise that German high-end brand Rotwild – one of the earliest adopters of e-bike technologies – jumped at the opportunity to be one of the first adopters of Pinion's E-Drive System. Rotwild's R.X1000 Ultra came decked out in high-end components and Pinion's E1.12 MGU at its heart.

The factory spec will feature a massive FIT Ultracore 960Wh battery, our early test model had the smaller (but still plenty capable) 720Wh battery installed. While most of the frame and spec looked production-worthy, a big prototype sticker on the side of the chainstay made sure to remind us that not everything on the bike was up to final spec.

Ground clearance of the MGU is excellent and much better than most of the full-size motor options out there. With a small 30-tooth chainring, the chainring is still lower than the lowest part of the motor housing by a couple millimeters.

With a measured weight of 23.12kg without pedals, the overall weight of the R.X1000 with full carbon frame is quite competitive but as our calculation suggested not the lightest, compared to other maker's bikes with similar spec.The measured battery weight of the 720Wh version is 3,631g. According to FIT's website, the 960Wh monster should come in at 4,600g. The black part you can see from the down tube is not an extra cover, it's an integral part of the battery. It can be removed from the frame via a lock with key. Turn the key, push the key down, pop the battery out. Simple.

When you start riding in the lowest Eco support mode, you might feel a bit disappointed by the system's power, or perceived lack thereof. Flex and Flow naturally offer more support but there is significantly more power input necessary than most competitor's power support setups at these levels to get the bike moving. The moment you shift into Fly mode, the system however really shows what it's capable of. I have a feeling that Pinion is on the cautious side of things when they talk about a comparable power of 85Nm to other systems. The MGU in Fly mode is significantly stronger than Shimano's EP8 with 85Nm in its highest setting for example, in all gears. Running with a Rocky Mountain Altitude Powerplay – with one of the strongest motors on the market but a trim that caters to a natural riding feel – next to the Rotwild, you need a significant amount more power in Ludicrous mode to keep up with Fly. Running a Specialized Turbo Levo in Turbo with full Shuttle support probably comes closer to the power of the Pinion MGU. Bosch's Race motor in Race mode might be another contender but that would require some further and proper testing, so these comparisons should be taken with a grain of salt.

Either way, the steepest and most technical sections are easy to conquer with Pinion's Fly mode and the system has enough capability to power you up the hill at almost max speed without having to put a crazy amount of energy, up to a certain grade.

Once you feel what's possible, jumping down into a lower support mode feels like launching a drag chute on a dragster. On an uphill, speed between Fly and Flex drops to about half at a similar rider input. Personally, it feels to me that the gap from the standard Performance setup, which is visualized in the graph, is too wide and discourages you from using them regularly, unless maximizing your ride distance and not the time it takes you to get back up the hill is your priority. Pinion says that they purposely chose to create a big gap in order for the rider to really feel the difference, although I wonder if that's going to be any help if you won't be able to hang with your friends riding different e-bikes in comparable mode settings.

At the time of testing, there was still some fine-tuning to be done on the FIT E-Bike Control app, so I couldn't personalize the ride modes, but it would be the first thing on my list to add some more oomph to Eco, Flow and Flex in order to actually enjoy using them regularly. Looking at the Comfort presets for bike companies, I wonder if my preferred setup would look close to those curves.

Modulation of the power feels mostly quite natural, with Fly you seem to lose a bit of sensitivity in the lower gears due to its power and you have to pay a bit more attention to keep your pedal strokes flowing in gears 1 to 4 at low speeds for the motor not to react too aggressively to abrupt changes in cadence. Also, I wouldn't complain if the starting aid to keep you from spinning out on loose steep climbs in those situations received some more tweaking down the road as it doesn't fully reach the potential of some of the best systems in that regard on the market – not saying that the E-Drive system is doing a bad job at all.


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Walk Assist is fairly easy to activate. Push the button once, then hold the button down when pushing the bike to get the assist from the motor. Being able to set the speed up to a value of 6km/h in the menu is a smart idea. The Boost function is triggered by pushing the Walk Assist button on the remote above a speed of 6 km/h. You have to hold down the button to get full power, no matter what mode you are riding in. It stops once you release the button.

The noise from the motor changes with the gears, or rather brackets of gears. Due to the underlying construction and design principles of the MGU, the electric motor works in three ranges that depend on the gear range of the integrated gearbox. As the gears change, the motor's speed changes and therefore also the sound that is emitted. Climbing gears 1-4 are the noisiest ones with higher motor speeds. 5 to 8 settle down a bit but when running in Fly mode are probably a notch above most other motors in their full power modes. Once you shift into gear 9 and higher, however, the system is almost silent, even under full power. That's not marketing talk, the motor really is running deliciously quiet in those gears.

The 600% gear range is huge, and I wonder if Rotwild's R.X1000 would better be served with a taller chainring up front as gear 1 is running so slowly that it would only make sense if mountain bike rock crawling was a sport. Then again, you'll be more likely to be able to use silent gear 9 on access road climbs this way, so maybe it's just fine as it is.

As far as power consumption goes, the E-Drive in Fly mode seems to be close to most motor systems in their highest setting, possibly a bit more power hungry. Running a certain section in Flex however, painted a whole other picture. Not wanting to jump to conclusions without having run down a full battery charge only in that ride mode, but the extrapolation of the ridden section would suggest that rides way beyond 2,000 meters of altitude, possibly even 3,000 meters, would be possible with a 720Wh battery. Obviously, with the 960Wh battery that will be installed on Rotwild's R.X1000, Pinion's E-Drive System should be a backcountry exploration machine.

Pedaling beyond 25km/h is a seamless transition, but there is some drag of the MGU noticeable when pedaling without motor support. It's not as bad as with the old Shimano motor for example, but it's there.


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The gearbox part of the motor is not necessarily a license to mash the pedals and trigger gear changes however you want. That out of the way, the shifting function of Pinion's MGU is impressive, especially compared to most regular drivetrain systems with a derailleur.
When shifting one gear at a time, the system can truly shift in a very unnoticeable, quiet and very fast fashion when loaded the majority of the time. Some gears shift louder than others, though.

As far as shifting speed goes, it's fast. The electronic noise while shifting might be a tad louder than when triggering SRAM's AXS and it's possibly more noticeable on the MGU because it's situated underneath the rider, rather than behind the rider. I doubt that anyone would consider it in the category of annoying and over the long run it's probably just something that you don't pay attention to after a while.

Under hard pressure on the pedals, especially when shifting two or more gears at a time, the gearbox answers with a significant clacking noise that can easily get you worried – not too surprising really, as the Pinion gearbox doesn't use a clutch as you would be used to from a motorcycle for example. However, I was told by Pinion that even with that noise, there is nothing to worry about in terms of durability as there are no chains or cassette sprockets that might fall victim to bad shifts. On the other hand, it's actually pretty simple to avoid these clacking noises by using a bit of common sense during your shifts.

It's easy to learn that if you shift with a minimum delay between the gears or reduce pedal pressure just the tiniest bit at the right time, the gear shifts will be rather smooth and quiet, even under pressure. With some of the gear shifts, sometimes also depending on speed, you notice how the cranks turn a few millimeters, a feeling that is possibly aided by how quickly the gears change. As for the haptics of the shifters, they are very defined in their pushing action and have just the right amount of resistance and ease of use. They're not overly large, but once you get used to the positioning are easy to work with.

Being able to shift while not turning the pedals (obviously, quick successive shifts don't matter at all in this case) simply elevates your possibilities during your ride. Losing speed in a tight corner and wanting to exit at a proper cadence? Rolling down a hill and getting ready for a steep counter-climb without having to get some cranks of the pedals in on possibly technical terrain? Braking hard into a tight switchback coming up behind a visual obstruction and having to finesse around the corner to start riding again with an easier gear? Quickly flipping the bike around after missing a turnoff on an unknown route? These scenarios and many more become much easier to manage. It might take some time to train your brain that you have those options with Pinion's shifting technology after being used to regular drivetrains, but it's incredibly rewarding becoming accustomed to it.

The Pre.Select function is an interesting concept, as it automatically takes riding speed into consideration when coasting downhill and automatically shifts into a gear that theoretically matches the RPM that you can set in the menu beforehand. After playing around with different values, I felt that 60RPM seemed like a nice compromise for most situations where it felt that you could gain some speed quickly without the RPMs revving up too quickly.

More often than not, Pre.Select works fine, but there were regularly situations where the gear felt too light, seldomly too hard, coming out of a corner, either because the system didn't have the chance to adapt to a change in speed quickly enough before mashing the pedals or some other variable. The one other downside happens when going downhill and manually shifting into a much lighter gear getting ready for an upcoming sharp climb. If the bike is still rolling at a higher speed in between, Pre.Select will shift into a harder gear again and mess up your intention. When talking to Pinion about it, they were aware of the scenario and said that this is one of the areas that they are working on options for the future.

Plus, the noise of the system constantly shifting the gears while you're riding downhill, whether you need the change or not, is something that takes a bit getting used to. In the end, at the current state, I ended up turning the function off again, which is just a quick and simple adjustment in the menu of the display.

Start.Select is another fun option that shifts into a preselected gear of your choice, once you come to a full stop. However, it's not without fault as well. For climbing situations, gear 3 turned out to be a smart choice for most situations. On a flat area, and especially after stopping in a downhill section, that gear was far too low to get into a riding rhythm quickly after a stop again. If the system could distinguish between the angle of the bike if it was situated on a climb, flat or downhill section, and if I could preselect different gears for those situations, that would make a huge difference in functionality.

Also, if you still have a foot settled on your pedal when you're stopping (which I guess I most of the time have), your foot rattles down a few millimeters at a time from gear to gear when the system shifts into the low preselected gear. There's nothing to worry about, it's just an odd occurrence.

I'm not saying that there won't be any riders out there that will benefit from these two functions, even if nothing changed by the time of launch for 2024 models, I myself can think of some riding buddies that will probably jump for joy for these options. Advanced mountain bike riders might look for some more tuning of the modes down the road. Either way, I'd run these modes on urban bikes immediately and never look back. Plus, it's easy to assume that even fully automated shifting, at least again for the road side of things is in the E-Drive System's stars. The technical requirements are already there.


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Does the motor or gearbox rattle when there's no torque on the pedals? In my initial observation I'd say no, but I don't want to jump to early conclusions. Sometimes, it takes a few hundred kilometers for a motor to break in and start making new unwanted noises. Plus, between some chain slap and the quite noisy freehub of the DT Swiss 240 hub, it was sometimes hard to distinguish other noises coming from the bike during a downhill. Only a long-term review with isolation of other noisy factors might bring a light to this question.

As far as why Rotwild opted for a chain drive system rather than a belt drive lies the fact that positioning plays an important part within their entire portfolio. Since all of their bikes are chain driven, they wanted to spec it in the same way. Because Rotwild found the Pinion CT2 universal chain tensioner to be too exposed in the bottom bracket area, they moved it to the rear dropout, similar to a derailleur placement (although not sticking out wider than the frame itself). An aftermarket replacement from chain to belt drive on the R.X1000 is not possible due to design restrictions.

Since they are still dialing in the length of the chain and the position of the chain tensioner as well as the chainstay cover to reduce chain slap, it wouldn't make much sense to comment on the current behavior of the chain-driven setup. I assume there will also be a feature so you can take out the rear wheel easily, which wasn't possible with the prototype setup. In terms of functionality under power, there was absolutely nothing to complain about, even when madly shifting under strong loads.

Rotwild's solution by routing the cables for the electronic shifter and display through their Rotwild B220 Carbon bar with 780mm width delivers a tidy cockpit layout. As for the display itself, that Rotwild chose from FIT's lineup, it reminds me a lot of Bosch's old Purion display, only with color and in a sleeker package. That doesn't change the fact that all handlebar-mounted displays are prone to getting damaged in a crash and one can only hope that FIT is working on a top tube-mounted display for the future.

Settings are easy to adjust within the menu structure via the dial on top of the display (probably the first to go in a crash). The main drive overview shows the basics, including the battery percentage via a damn battery symbol with five charge states. I wonder how long the bike world has to wait for that symbol to disappear on e-bikes, as it will not be able to tell you if there are 20 or 5% left in the tank. Changing to a percentage view is only possible if you click the top dial twice, and that view disappears once you turn off the bike or look up another feature like trip height or cadence by selecting it in the submenu. It would be great if the user had the chance to select the three or four main features that are personally most important and put them up on the main screen (including battery charge in percentage). Also, watts from rider input would be another nice feature, which is not on FIT's list of things you can read out.

Regarding suspension performance due to reduced unsprung mass, it's hard to make a statement unless being able to test the system back to back to an identical frame design with regular components. I can say however, that the rear end of the Rotwild R.X1000 was very sensitive, stuck to the ground nicely and sometimes surprised me how capable its 150mm of travel was, apart from easily outperforming the FIT4 damping of the Fox 36 fork.

Surprisingly, it wasn't emphasized in all the marketing briefs, that the single-speed configuration lets designers build smarter suspension designs by being able to manipulate for example anti-rise, anti-squat or chain growth to just a single gear, not having to compromise to the effects of running in different gears on a large cassette. Sure, some companies like Zerode, Nicolai, Gamux or Cavalerie have been advocating in that regard for a while, but in this form, where negative factors like added drag or weight don't matter just as much, it should help spread onto e-bike designs much easier.

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As Pinion says, they have done their testing, but as we all know, bikers can be real brutes, so time will tell if the system is as maintenance-free as predicted. If it is, that's a huge win for any biker. Also, without having tested it yet, it sounds like the belt drive configuration could add some major benefits to the world of cycling. I for one would be very happy, never having to clean or lube a chain in my life again.

Overall, what Pinion has brought to the table is a system with benefits that even, or especially, the big players can't overlook. There are still some tweaks here or there that might or might not get remedied until the first production models enter the market. But even now, the functionality looks pretty darn solid. Plus, having opened the doors to new technological possibilities, future add-ons can only make the Pinion E-Drive System even better. It will be interesting to see what impact it will have on the e-bike market in years to come.

Author Info:
ralf-hauser avatar

Member since May 10, 2010
68 articles

342 Comments
  • 433 9
 I actually think this is one of the coolest piece of tech i have seen this week!! shoot me down if you want but i like it and i don't even ride an eMTB!! Smile
  • 109 2
 I'd lke to see the electronic shifter trickle down to the regular gearbox.
  • 26 43
flag mtbflow24 FL (Jun 19, 2023 at 23:52) (Below Threshold)
 @pyromaniac: all these bloody eMTBs getting all the new tech while us acoustic riders get the castoffs' Wink Wink
  • 7 0
 @pyromaniac: like this, which Gamux have been racing. It was released last year Smile
pinion.eu/en/smartshift
  • 7 0
 @pyromaniac: It is surprising, isn't it? Rohloff also has an electronic shifter which still can only be used on bikes with pedal assist. The main gripe I read about Rohloff and Pinion is that people really like their products, but would love to see them readily available with trigger shifters. And then they make them, but only when you get a bike with pedal assistance!
  • 8 0
 With you on that, but I need a TL;DR on this.
  • 31 0
 Way overdue but never too late. 100% on board on this. Bye bye 1xwhatever
  • 18 0
 THIS had to happen!!!
  • 24 3
 Pair this with Dave Weagle's High-Pivot Drivetrain System, to eliminate the dangling tensioner, and we're there!
  • 6 3
 This concept makes sense. Wouldn't buy it but that's irrelevant.
  • 65 5
 Even I think it's really cool and I don't even like e-bikes. On a side note, big manufacturers like Specialized, Trek and Giant must be pretty mad right now, because this tech basically invalidates all current e-bike models currently sitting in inventory and on dealership floors. I certainly wouldn't go out and blow 15k on a S-Works Levo right now, if I knew that something way better was just months away from hitting the market.
  • 3 14
flag vinay FL (Jun 20, 2023 at 5:11) (Below Threshold)
 @Muscovir: Nah, when Pinion came out, it wasn't quite like everyone suddenly jumped onto that train and abandoned the conventional derailleur based gearing. Even today when you have more than a good few options available. When I had my current frame built, I was also pretty sure I'd get an internal gearbox. It is just that, I'd have to wear out of a massive lot of (in my case) 10sp sprockets and chains before I'd break even. Plus I was looking for quite a short rear center, which simply wasn't possible due to the size of the unit. Same went with Effigear (who indeed also offer an option for steel frames). I considered Rohloff for a short bit, then just went with Shimano Zee and it is doing just fine. Maybe it is different for bikes with pedal assist as obviously the mid motor already poses the limitations on geometry as well as that it will put much more wear on your chain and sprockets. So you'll actually break even sooner. So yeah, some of the aspects that drove me away from the concept of internal gearbox won't be an issue for those who already accepted the consequences of pedal assist. I do suppose it will add quite a bit to the price though, even though the Levo you mention seems expensive too. The other advantage could be personal too. I don't question that getting more weight low and central will "improve" suspension performance and give you a more "planted" feel. Charge into the rough stuff and I can imagine it will feel like the suspension will smooth everything out. It is just that, is there such a thing as "too planted"? Do you want it that smooth or do you want to be left with something to play with? As said, that is probably personal but good to keep in mind.
  • 61 8
 @mtbflow24: stop it, just stop using acoustic
  • 7 1
 @Muscovir: whoa, you jumped to “way better” real quick for something that doesn’t even have a couple hundred kms on it yet.
  • 10 1
 Im not convinced this will have any advantage in the stealing KOMs on strava and then telling the world i did it on my normal raleigh chopper
  • 23 1
 @Muscovir: especially considering the biggest complaint and maintenance cost associated with e-bike right now is drivetrain. I have customers coming to the twice per season for new drivetrain because how quickly shit is wearing out. its insanity.
  • 2 2
 @Muscovir: volume, noise, looks is still a bummer. Sort this out and yes, it will be the new standard.
  • 8 3
 @onawalk: amish!? ha ha
  • 28 21
 I don't have an ebike, can't afford one and am still humpin' it up by my own power - but I'm all about it and while gearboxes prob still have a long way to go, for DH they make they make all the sense. And to ebike haters - hate all ya want, but Fabian Barel, Tracey Mosely, and lots of other former badass pros are riding - and totally shredding on them - so if you hate ebikes, you despise them...and I'm sure they'll cry a river of tears for your opinion. Do tell us all about it.

And last - if ya hate ebikes then go ahead and say adaptive riders suck and they should't be allowed on trails either...why discrimnate? Might as well go all in because hey - you're typing things, why not just go all the way?
  • 8 1
 @vinay: Two things make gearboxes more suitable on eBikes: 1) A few % drivetrain loss doesn't matter any more 2) On a normal bike the drivetrain worked fine, it could have been better, but it didn't usually ruin enjoyment on a ride. eBikes on the other hand trash derailleur drivetrains; so much torque they wear really quickly, and when you back off to change gear the motor runs on slightly so there are still huge chain snapping forces. A slight snag in the derailleur would stop you pedalling on a normal bike to investigate, but on an eBike it will mash straight through, snap something and ruin your ride.
Linkdrive tried to address some of these issues, but it won't even get close to 10,000km of hassle free fun promised here!
  • 19 32
flag Dogl0rd FL (Jun 20, 2023 at 6:47) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtn-Goat-13: get the mopeds off the trails
  • 7 8
 @Muscovir: its 2 years away in N. America, it sounds like....So at least here, the big boys have time to clear inventory and get to designing their 2025 and beyond bikes, around this system.

I actually think this is all part of the plan from them. let the secondary Euro brands launch them, see the issues that arise, and then come out with bikes for 2025 or 26.

I would like to see a 6-7spd version with 65ish Nm, a 500Ah batter all in a sub 40lb bike in the next 4-5 years. I don't enjoy 50lb ebikes, but get them under 40( I currently have a Rise thats 38.5lbs and it's hard to get on any of my other 30lb bikes, as theres almost zero riding difference), and you have an excellent do it all bike.
  • 9 0
 Wonder if you could mount the chain tensioner similar to the new Nicolai. Seems a waste to get rid of the need for a rear mech but the replace it with a chain tensioner that hangs down in the same place.
  • 4 0
 Yeah this is the direction I was hoping it would go. As soon as my knees die I am getting one of these
  • 4 3
 @CantQuitCartel: They should just make bikes which are using this engine with horizontal dropouts instead of vertical dropouts.
  • 2 1
 LOVE THIS!!!
  • 2 0
 @captainclunkz: I wonder whether there is even a way to have horizontal dropouts that don't slip under this kind of load. Even a tensioner might snap. Another concern would be that we have tru-axles for a reason these days. Slotted dropouts provide little support, especially on a multi-link full suspension bike! Final issue of course is as everyone is agonizing over mms of chainstay length, it seems kind of weird to have that metric directed by whatever is needed to keep the chain tight. Not saying it is uncommon. The Little Beady Eye from Starling does something similar (yet with an eccentric rear axle) but at least that one still doesn't have the aforementioned downside nor does it have pedal assist.
  • 4 0
 @LemonadeMoney: that red bike would look super clean without the tensioner. Would ride, and that's from a dedicated 'love-to-hate' e-bike hater.
  • 2 1
 @norona: Thats a strange comment
  • 10 0
 yup. Been waiting for this since 2017. I knew it had to be coming. I said I would buy an ebike once a system like this was standard and well-tested. Now if I can just find five figures of cash somewhere.... lol
  • 5 2
 @Dogl0rd: Haven't seen any (or even ebikes - they're not allowed in my area where its mostly national forest) but I'll let them know you griped about it...they'll be really concerned. Keyboard warrior complaints should really be taken very seriously.
  • 3 0
 @LemonadeMoney: I think there should be the option for the chainring to be located higher than the crank axle. Instead of a second chain like the Weagle system, the transmission just directs the output to a separate axle.
  • 5 1
 @tremeer023: We all get old and broken eventually.
  • 2 0
 @wda1wustl: That's what Rocky Mountain does, don't they? However, getting the entire chainring higher than the axle does give some issues. Either the chainring will have to be really high or really small to clear the crank axle. The downside of making it really small could be increased chain wear. Or the chainring needs to be supported from the outside instead of through a spider (so that it hollow in the middle and the crank axle passes through. It will be hard to support properly. So yeah, maybe the Rocky Mountain approach would be best if this really is what you want.
  • 2 1
 I'd take this over some of the 55 lb pig ebikes out here and deal with the weight penalty, but if I'd still rather have something sub 40, which this is not destined to be...
  • 3 0
 @norona: can't do that.... ALL the Amish around here are on e-bikes now. Its all if us crazy regulars getting passed by them now lol
  • 3 2
 If I ever buy a Laz-E-Bike, it'll have to have this.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: had to steak it in there Wink
  • 1 0
 @mtbflow24: please dont, just.....well, just dont
  • 12 9
 Here's an idea... you could get rid of the pedals and put stationary footpegs. On the left side you could replace the pesky handlebar mounted shifter and put some lever like contraption which you could use your foot to shift gears. On the right side you could make some sort of rotating handgrip that controls your speed... maybe even a rear brake near the right footpeg! Then, this technology would be about complete....
  • 4 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: ask anyone who shares their trails with hikers if that's true
  • 4 2
 @Dogl0rd: If what's true? (honest question) I don't understand the premise. However, all the Nat'l Forest trails near me all allow hikers whereas zero are bikes only, so I can rarely get in a clean run without stopping for children, grandparents & looky-lou's even in steep remote situations. So actually you're kinda proving the point that IF ebikes were even allowed here and IF I one - I'd at least bust 3-4 times the laps & miles in a day and have a better chance at one clean one. I'll def be lobbying for them for sure. I'm not worried about kooks or damage - plenty of that just from all the flea market campers that trash the place - an ebike would just help me get tools back to keep the trails up (no trail Sorba at all in my area, just me & some buddies) and get away from the nutbags faster.
  • 11 0
 @Mtbdialed: "secondary Euro brands"? Funny... there are more bikes being sold in Europe than in USA and many super premium brands come from here. You do know that a significant part of R&D of even SRAM is located in Germany? Pinion is top notch and killing it at the highest level. Any more high-flying elaborate thoughts on "secondary" coming from your end? No? Good.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: low unsprung weight and fixed position chain lines are a thing you know. Even seen a motorcycle?
  • 1 0
 Imaybe all year mate.. we need flagship options with this now
  • 4 0
 Hope Zerode jump onboard with it !!
  • 7 0
 This makes more sense then anything in the last 5-6 years drivetrain development wise.
  • 5 0
 @Mtbdialed: "Secondary euro brands"? You really are living in some sort of alternative reality; oh wait US and A, of course, that explains it.
  • 2 4
 @trickn0l0gy: I'm not trying to pick a fight - what are the super premium Euro brands? Propain? Who else - I'm ignorant on this one... I think of a lot of the German and rest of EU DTC brands as being solid bikes and great value, but not super premium.
  • 2 0
 @shredddr: Unno, Atherton, Antidote and Nicolai come to mind. I wouldn't quite put Propain under that banner but maybe the perception in North America is different and you indeed put them above the brands I mentioned.
  • 3 0
 @shredddr: So, if we're talking only bike brands and not technology or tier 1 OEMs, then let's discuss: Specialized may be way up there in terms of volume and "premiumization" strategy, but in terms of actual build quality, attached parts and value-for-money, then please also look at the latest releases from e.g. Rotwild, Canyon (yes, they have super-premium builds in their portfolio) and e.g. for the gravel category you can even now count Rose in, e.g. the Backroad LTD is nothing short of superpremium. Other worthy brands to mention: Scott, Simplon, Bold (bought by Scott), Prime, Commencal, Orbea, ... there are a lot in Europe, that are really good.
  • 1 4
 @vinay: I dig all those, but to me those are niche brands. Super nice, yes, but I don't think they're doing much in the way of volume. Anyway, maybe it's just semantics.
@trickn0l0gy Semantics, but I wouldn't have said any of those are super premium, though a few I'm not familiar with and Orbea is doing nice things right now. That comment is sure to offend people though, so I'll exit here.
  • 1 0
 @shredddr: Sorry, what exactly were you looking for? Initially you were looking for "super premium" so I mentioned some brands which I considered to fit the bill. But they may not push big volumes indeed. @trickn0l0gy mentioned some which do push higher volumes but they don't match your image of super premium. Could you give me an example of a brand outside Europe so that I can get an idea of what you're looking for?
  • 6 1
 @shredddr: Oh, I don't know. There's only Propain, YT, Canyon, Scott, BMC, Orbea, Mondraker, Commencal, RAAW and Nukeproof. So hardly any, really.

And if we're including smaller manufacturers making high-end bikes there's also Nicolai, Atherton, Deviate, Antidote, Prime, Cotic, Simplon, Rotwild, LAST and many more.

If your criterium for "super premium (...) brands" is performance, these are all high-end.

Take Canyon for example. People think they are just a value brand, but that's such a flawed perception. Look up reviews for Canyon bikes from like the last 3 years and you'd be super hard pressed to find anyone who had anything negative to say. Seb Stott loved the Canyon Strive, Mike Kazimer loved the Canyon Torque, Dan Roberts said the Canyon Sender was the fastest and most capable DH bike from that field test. And that's just 3 reviews from a small and heavily North-American-centric website. Just because a product is great value doesn't mean that the performance can't be fantastic aswell.

Same thing goes for Propain, YT, RAAW and most of the others I mentioned.

If you're judging by engineering, production quality and performance all of those are on the same level as Santa Cruz, Trek, pecialized, Norco, Devinci, Ibis, Pivot, Yeti, etc.
  • 1 5
flag Mtbdialed (Jun 21, 2023 at 16:56) (Below Threshold)
 @Muscovir: LOL. nothing negative to say about Canyon?

is this a serious comment? they are the current #1 in bad reviews for DTC bikes!
  • 3 0
 @Mtbdialed: @shredddr wants a list of "super premium Euro brands" that are "doing [...] volume". Now, you want to add nobody having anything negative to say about said brand? Let's hear it for the North American brands that make this list. LOL what a joke. Oh wait, this is obviously par for the course on the internets.
  • 4 1
 @Mtbdialed: So? I was talking about performance. What I said is that you pretty much won't find a bad performance review by any magazine about any bike from Propain, YT or Canyon.

You'll hardly find a brand no customer has anything negative to say about. There's, for example, entire threads on internet forums with hundreds of people posting pictures of their cracked Specialized Enduro or Stumpjumper. Some of them waiting six months or longer on their warranty replacement. By your logic that must mean Specialized is not a premium brand aswell, right?

You guys are ridiculous.
  • 2 0
 @Mtbdialed: Sorry, I'm trying to help find your answer but you don't clarify what you're looking for even when asked. So again, give me an example of a non-European "super premium" bike brand and by which criteria you classify it as such. I admit I only made my own interpretation of what "super premium" would be as I've never seen a clear definition of what is.
  • 2 4
 @Muscovir: JFC.....no. specialized is not "premium", whatever the f*ck that term even means in this context. Spesh makes $400 MTB and $16,000 bikes.

all I said was that there are plenty of complaints about Canyon, when you said there were not any(you never gave context). Canyon build quality is bad. like, reaaaaaal f*cking bad. Specialized ebike motors are laughably unreliable, only outdone by the chainstays on an Enduro! my point is that, you claiming NO ONE HAS EVER SAID A BAD THING ABOUT CANYON! is so farcical, it seems to be parody, not a real comment.
  • 1 0
 @iwhizz: I've always thought a MX style gearbox could possibly work if miniaturised. They've pinched my idea!
This will be so good if its not costing telephone numbers! It just blows my mind that some mtbs are costing over 10k now.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: unless we're talking about a guitar, I agree 100%
  • 1 0
 @mi-bike: I rode it on differing bikes. it's going to be my next bike. game changer.
  • 1 0
 @Muscovir: It's their dumbass fault for designing and pushing out archaic derailleur e-bikes when this tech ha been known about for years.
  • 1 0
 @BoneDog: I have over 42,000 km on e-mtb here in squamish whistler. I have taken a gx drivetrain to 5000km no problem still shifting fine, new chain and cassette ideally at 3000km , rear tires every 800-1200km maxxis assegai dh and front every 1600-1800, new rear brake pads every 700-900km, these are cheap to run. Trials bikes use to be the best bang for your buck int he corridor now its emtb
  • 104 3
 IT’S HAPPENNING! EVERYBODY STAY CALM!
  • 5 1
 Yes, things are starting to get seriouly serious.
  • 2 1
 No, it isn't happening yet. Please panic, run and scream.
  • 81 3
 Pretty neat and tidy. Such a good idea for ebikes where weight and inefficiency are so much less of an issue. Would love to see something like this succeeded and really put pressure on Shimano and Sram to invest in gearboxes instead of rinsing us for derailleurs & ultra expensive cassettes. It’s insane dangling all that expensive stuff off the back of a bike. Had a lot of recent rides ruined by mech issues so keen to see them go ASAP.
  • 15 21
flag scott-townes FL (Jun 20, 2023 at 3:50) (Below Threshold)
 Yeah, it sucks for us who prefer to ride janky/tech stuff with rocks waiting to rip your derailleur off like a newborn's foreskin at a Rabbi gettogether.
  • 11 0
 Weird how you go through phases. No issues for like 2 years then you finally hit a rock and buy a new mech which manages to last all of 3 weeks before it also meets a rock even though you managed to make it years without it happening once
  • 6 1
 And let's not forget the presence of a chain. I would much rather have a belt
  • 10 0
 This new gearbox+motor is the only way I'll consider an ebike purchase. There's enough innovative tech here to justify the extra cost.
  • 82 4
 That looks to be a serious step in the right direction for Pinion! Always thought that gearboxes should be combined with a motor. Not even an e bike rider myself but this just makes sense
  • 16 3
 and whats amazing is that it still just looks like a normal motor even though it has a whole gearbox system in there!! WOW
  • 9 17
flag thewanderingtramp (Jun 20, 2023 at 0:32) (Below Threshold)
 @mtbflow24: Whats even more impressive is it only adds a ton of weight
  • 7 3
 @thewanderingtramp: ye but you then have the motor to help with that! Smile
  • 14 8
 @thewanderingtramp: If you're weight watching your e bike you kinda missed the point i think
  • 5 8
 @asapyohanes: I would argue if you are into riding bicycles ,claiming someone else has missed the point by riding what is now closer to an electric motorcycle is missing the point
  • 3 9
flag Mtbdialed (Jun 20, 2023 at 6:52) (Below Threshold)
 @asapyohanes: not really. go ride a 52lb ebike then a 38lb ebike and try and tell me with a straight face that the 52lb bike rides better.
  • 7 0
 @Mtbdialed: looking at the weight of a normal e-bike motor with similar specs which is around 2.9kg and the 4kgs from the MUG I highly doubt that it would impact your riding that much. plus less unsprung mass at the rear should make the suspension feel great.
@setupdevil I will not argue pro e bikes because I'm not a fan myself but as someone who is atm spending his time writing a thesis on a topic related to gearboxes I just think this a good move for Pinion
  • 1 0
 This is effectively how motorcycle transmissions work: the engine is mated right to the gearbox. I'm glad someone finally did this for e-bikes where the weight doesn't matter as much.
  • 3 1
 @asapyohanes: I was responding to your comment about weight weenie-ing an ebike. the difference between 52 and 38 lbs is night and day. If you just let 1KG here and 500g there go, pretty soon you have a bike that approaches Mama June heft...
  • 2 0
 @asapyohanes: what kind of gearboxes
  • 2 0
 @mtbflow24: which begs the question: why are current motors so big?
  • 1 0
 @Mtbdialed: I don't think 1.1-1.4 kgs is that big of a difference. If that's a dealbreaker to you so be it but on a system that already has a motor built in it's not that big of a deal in my eyes. I feel like we shouldn't penalize innovation like that. There is merit to a system that has motor and transmission built in one and to just dismiss it over a weight penalty that may or may not be relevant seems a bit much. If you build your lightest bike and just add this unit instead of traditional motor+transmission you add 1kg (frame redesign excluded for simplicity) ... that is not that insane to me
@Compositepro: I'm not allowed to say as of yet but hopefully I'll be done by the end of summer
  • 1 0
 @mitochris: Exactly!! what are they not telling us Wink
  • 63 0
 Wow that is impressive. I definitely wouldn't buy a current E-bike now after seeing that.
  • 7 8
 All the bike companies associated with derailleurs deserve to be boycotted for a few years for not experimenting with gearboxes sooner. Shimano and SRAM deserve to go out of business for holding us back so badly.
  • 3 1
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Pinion might push the eMTB industry to integrate transmissions with their motors, but regular derailleurs & expensive cassettes are here to stay for a little longer for regular bikes.

It just takes one large manufacturer to integrate Pinion system on their eMTBs to push SRAM & Shimano to develop their own system to fight back that market share.

If Pinion's technology is reliable and efficient, I don't think anyone will look back after trying it. Less maintenance, pretty much nothing to break and not even lube to apply as you can run a strap!
  • 4 0
 @rick26: "not even lube to apply as you can run a strap!"


......go on! Big Grin
  • 5 2
 @DoubleCrownAddict: shimano and Sram owe you nothing. don't buy their shit if you don't like it, or!....OR! go design your own gear box.


your comment is dumb af
  • 1 0
 For real. Why would you buy anything else? This is the perfect system for an ebike.
  • 33 4
 Excellent review and explanation of everything, seems really well thought-out and engineered and it will only get better. If there is no efficiency or weight advantage, there is no good reason to continue to use derailleurs for e bikes. The bike look better without them. This is the beginning of the end of derailleurs. In my dreams Pinion will take over the e bike motor market, starve Shimano and leave SRAM hanging with nothing. Then improve their regular bike gearbox and completely get rid of the derailleur for mountain biking.
  • 6 0
 Yeah, if they indeed manage to produce the volumes Shimano produces and they are able to deliver the gearbox at the kind of pricepoint one can buy what makes up for a complete drivetrain (and some chains and sprockets for wear) I think you're absolutely right!
  • 10 0
 Pinion just needs ONE big, popular brand partnership willing to take the risk, and I think that would be a stepping stone to eventually going mass market. As it stands, I don't know who the hell these brands Pinion have partnered with, and that's the problem. Brand recognition will help Pinion tremendously. Otherwise, SRAM and Shimano will just drown them out with marketing money and they'll be relegated to a neat piece of tech that no one remembers, much like their non-motor gearboxes.
  • 5 0
 @Almazing: It may be different in North America, but I do think Pinion is properly known in Europe, at least by the potential customers. Their stuff could indeed be found on elite (but definitely not unknown) brands like Nicolai as well as the more common bikes from Ghost. If anything, I think Effigear could do with more exposure. But as for risk, I don't even know whether it is such a risk anymore. Isn't it that the Pinion-frame interface is similar to that for a certain (or several) motor brands? If so, a brand which offers assisted bikes with that particular motor could also assemble bikes with that gearbox instead of the motor. It is just that, it is quite a lot off money. For people with limited funds, they're typically better off investing in better suspension components than on gearing.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: The brands you mentioned are relatively small in the USA. I know OF them, but they aren't mass market unit movers like Trek or Specialized. Doesn't even have to be one of the big bike whales. Larger boutique brands like Yeti, SC, or Ibis could adopt the Pinion gearbox. Heck, I think Pinion would get enough exposure if Canyon adopts them in their next generation of e-bikes. I think it's a cool concept to build a frame and motor combination, but that wont get Pinion any more exposure to the mass market. If anything, it would probably do the opposite and they could be pigeonholed in to the high end, custom e-bike market. That's not what I want. I want Pinion to take SRAM's and especially Shimano's lunch money.
  • 3 0
 @Almazing: I'm primarily aiming at the gearboxes as this one integrated with a motor is relatively new. I hadn't heard of Simplon either until a few years ago. Rotwild may have been better known because Ritchie Schley rode their bikes for a while yet at the same time that was also the era he as a rider actually got less exposure. Either way, I'm not sure whether Pinion would even want to work with Specialized and Trek. As Pinion produces in Germany, I don't think they can produce the kind of quantities that Shimano is able to hence having to commit to that won't necessarily do them any good. Heck, once the horst-link patent expired in North America a lot of brands were suddenly free to enter that market. What we got to see was that brands who actually had a fair reputation in Europe suddenly got a bad reputation because they couldn't keep up with demand. People who do a minimal amount of reseach before throwing thousands at their dealer will know the option of a gearbox is there. I think Pinion is happy enough to cater to that audience. The audience that doesn't do some basic research is always going to be hard to deal with.

That said, again Effigear is there too and as their design is much simpler, it is also cheaper. If there were an alternative to the cheaper derailleur drivetrain, it would be them.

Finally, I'm not sure whether we'll ever see anything of the BeOne PeteSpeed gearbox. The iconic BeOne bike brand got acquired by some American company who sucked it dry and left it to die but the PeteSpeed patent was bought by Hayes. So they could actually sell the gearbox package along with brakes, suspension, cockpit parts etc in the OEM market. It is a derailleur-in-a-box concept similar to what the secret Honda gearbox turned out to be like, so it may actually be the cheapest to produce. If you don't use readily available cassettes and pulleys, these sprockets may still be cheap to produce by themselves as they can be stamped instead of machined or sintered like they do with the regular gearbox gears. Suntour had/has a gearbox too but I feel that if there is one brand that could pull it off to supply gearboxes to the OEM market and really make a change, it would be Hayes.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: I also don't think Pinion would want to work with any of the big bike whales either because as you mentioned, they couldn't pump these things out fast enough. And for larger boutique brands like Yeti, SC, and the like, it would be tough for them to get their foot in the door because of deeply embedded sponsorships and racing programs. Racing is supposed to drive innovation, but in the e-bike's case, bike politics just inhibit it. Canyon makes a lot of different eMTBs, so maybe they could take the risk and use a Pinion drivetrain for just one model to see how it does. Canyon already employs Shimano and Bosch motors for their e-bikes. For American brands, Pinion would have to reach out to a well-known boutique that doesn't have racing program. Transition and Evil come to mind. The Pinion name just needs association with another well-known name to take off. I guess Transition has a factory DH team, but I don't really think that counts for much with e-bike development. Shoot, if Transition uses the Pinion drivetrain for their next gen e-bikes, I would buy one the day it releases.
  • 3 0
 @Almazing: did you catch the peice about this not coming to the US until 2025 at the earliest, due to compliance issues(and likely partner brands not being ready)?

My guess would be when this comes to the US, it will be Giant first, followed by Trek for big brands and then smaller US manufacturers that embrace new tech to jump on board. I would also look for some smaller brands that do not have an ebike yet, to use this as their entry into the market.
  • 2 0
 @Mtbdialed: Yup. That long wait is a good thing, IMO. It'll give partners time to clear their inventory and develop a new platform for the Pinion drivetrain. I don't care what brand Pinion partners with, as long as it's not some obscure, ultra high-end brand that barely anyone has heard of.
  • 2 0
 @Almazing: it'll be both. Giant for the $8000 bike, and my money is on like Revel, GG, or something like Mondraker(yes euro, but they might wait to have US and Euro compliant bikes) to adopt for the high end, $13000 version.
  • 2 0
 @Mtbdialed: I don't think it will be with giant, as they have their own proprietary ebike systems that they are really pushing.
  • 1 0
 @Ghaytnd: well, it won't be Spesh, as they are hard tied to Brose, so I guess Trek is the only hope for a big boy to come on board.
  • 1 0
 @Almazing: Simplon, Bulls, flyer, Rotwild all all widely know brands in Europe and belong to companies that shift a respectable amount of bicycles a year.
  • 2 0
 @Vindiu: I think the FSR patent has kept many of these brands off the North American market. Compared to the European market, it is a relatively small market and hard to snatch a spot. When the FSR patent expired, some of these brands (Canyon, Cube, YT and I think Rose too) but it is tough. Even in PB articles mentioned as "newcomers" who "jumped on the FSR train now that the patent has expired" rather than something they've been refining for years or even decades. One could consider YT relatively new but even they've been around since well before they signed Lacondeguy which was already a good few years before the FSR patent expired. And those brands who did enter the North American market did get a lot of stick for not being able to supply parts and service in a timely manner. I think these other brands just don't care to bother with that market. They might enter eventually, but don't feel the urge to rush it now. Especially now in the age of component shortages (and those in electronics in particular), I can imagine they'd hate to lose their good name in the worldwide comment sections because they don't manage to deliver.

TL;DR: Many of those brands have full suspension designs that clash with the North American FSR patent, so that's the reason they never entered that market. When the patent expired, some of those brands did enter that market but it was tougher than anticipated and it messed with their good name. I feel those brands who weren't so quick to jump into the gap shied away from the backlash and decided to take their time if they ever even see a point in entering that market. The worldwide shortage in parts and challenges in logistics imply that nowadays there may even be fewer reasons to even try than there would have been five years ago.
  • 3 0
 @vinay: HWt keeps most European brands out of the American market is litigation, being USA's patent system only one of the many factors.

Also, that side of the Atlantic you don't seem to understand one of the biggest segments in Europe, particularly DACH + Northern Italy: The "Alpentourer". Pretty much active suspension with low progresivity and different suspension modes to just go for a relaxed, long ride where one of the highlights is the Tiroler Gröstl with cold Gösser aplenty at the hut at the top of some 2.000+ m mountain pass. Scott had their Genius catering to this market for ages and only recenty they're trying to make it fit into the other category that suits the American brands better, which is the Finale Ligure barely injury avoiding weekend.

Most of the German and Italian Long travel bikes have historically been Alpentourers, based on Horst Leitner's (Austrian) basic design which has been around in one track vehicles in Europe since the late 1800's (and therefore can't be patented under our legal system) and on the fact that that was the biggest market in the the DACH+NIT countries. Companies coming from the Central / Nothern German bikepark scene (YT) will have higher progressivity Leitner systems. Move to France and it's higher antisquat with 3 to 2x leverage ratios (enduro was born in France), soem might be Leitner (Lapierre), some not (Commencal).

There's sound engineering behind all those choices, what there's not is any desire to get entangled in the American legal system.
  • 7 0
 @Almazing: Everyone keeps forgetting that Pinion was majority purchased by BRP (Bombardier) last year. This is a massive company with very deep pockets. I really don't think it would be an issue for Pinion to ramp up production to whatever level they needed to take on SRAM/Shimano if the market supported it.
  • 3 0
 @islandtrader: They're Canadian, right? I wasn't aware of that but I'd suppose this may imply that it might indeed be easier to bring them to North America. But deep pockets don't necessarily imply they invest in whatever those under their umbrella demand. They could also choose to just suck a brand empty and leave it for dead when it doesn't give them sufficient revenue. The other thing again is, I don't really believe Pinion is intend on making gearboxes in a way that they can compete with Shimano in all segments. Nothing in their brand image breathes racing, nor does it breathe the vibe of getting everyone on bikes. Their image is about durability and reliability. If anyone, they could try to beat Rohloff.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: It's been pretty well know since BRP's acquisition of Pinion that they plan on bringing their own e-bike to market. If you search for "BRP low voltage" you'll see a page they've used to hire a bunch of people for this new e-bike division in Bromont Quebec. Back to the deep pocket comment, BRP will absolutely not let Pinion fail since their new MGU is at the heart of every e-bike they plan to eventually produce. Bombardier is quite the forward thinking company. It will be interesting to see what they end up bringing to market.
  • 1 0
 @islandtrader: Yeah sorry, even stuff that's pretty well known can easily whoosh right over my head. I knew Bombardier through their airplanes and trains, but wasn't aware of their involvement in bikes. But yeah as for their own e-bike, loads of car brands are suddenly jumping on the e-bike train but I often fail to see what kind of innovation they contribute. So I just considered it a greenwashing trick so that on average the emission per vehicle of theirs is within reason. But fair, in this case a gearbox with integrated motor indeed is something special. So yeah indeed, cool they're willing to invest in their product and I hope they continue to make unassisted gearboxes too. Haibike for instance completely shifted to pedal assisted bikes and quit making unassisted bikes. Fair enough, their unassisted bikes didn't bring anything that other brands like Cube weren't doing. But the unassisted Pinion gearbox is already something special and of course a lot of brands already rely on this single product. They can't discontinue these!
  • 1 0
 @Almazing: They're brands that don't have massive contracts with SRAM and Shimano.
  • 26 2
 Am i supposed to love this or hate this? Please help me decide PB commenters.
  • 20 0
 If you ever find yourself in doubt, just look to my username.
  • 3 0
 My exact problem… dont like ebikes but gearboxes are cool…
  • 17 0
 This is the future of eMTBs. If Pinion doesn't screw this up and can sell it to the major, popular brands, then every other motor manufacturer would be playing catch-up. I have no idea who those brands are that are partnered with Pinion, but I hope there is a large expansion. I know SRAM, Shimano, and Bosch is going to drown Pinion with their marketing money and partnerships though, which is sad, because this is the gearbox/motor combo everyone deserves.
  • 2 0
 Totally agree, maybe Bosch will join the gearbox party too as they don't have expensive wearable drivtrains to sell you.
  • 14 0
 GCN had a feature documentary that included some of the history of ebikes. Over 120 years ago once bicycles were a thing, people even then started trying to strap electric motors in the frame. This was a precursor to motorbikes -they obviously moved on to internal combustion rather stick with electric. Pretty interesting when you consider pedal bikes still evolved alongside motorbikes over the next 100 years until people started re-inventing the electric bike. I havent really decided how I feel about ebikes but its pretty interesting history and tech regardless.
  • 5 0
 I think that exactly the fact that bicycles just developed alongside motorcycles instead of being replaced by them goes a long way in validating the concept of the regular bike and in telling us that it most likely won't go away anytime soon.
  • 6 0
 @Muscovir: I don’t think anyone is arguing that bikes will become obsolete. My single speed beater gets me around town and I’ve done zero maintenance on it in the past five years. Ebikes certainly have a purpose but could never replace the simplicity of a bike.
  • 16 0
 Wow. I don't even like e-bikes, but this is actually really cool! Actual innovation - haven't seen that in a while from the bike industry.
  • 19 3
 Make your note: In year of 2023 bicycles started to be designed and look how they should had always been.
  • 9 0
 This reminds me: I've recently been to a museum dedicated to traffic and transportation and to my delight they had a huge bicycle collection. There, I saw a bike with a three-speed, bb-mounted gearbox and full suspension - from the 1920s. Interestingly enough, hub-gears and gearboxes both came way before derailleurs. The first bicycles with hub-mounted planetary gear systems had been around since the 1890s. Derailleurs on the other hand were only invented in the 1950s.
  • 2 0
 @Muscovir: where was that?
  • 17 1
 This is the Revolution
  • 7 0
 Levy is gonna be so bummed.

"I am committed to rear derailleurs"
  • 34 6
 @DoubleCrownAddict: I am committed to bikes that don't have motors tbh Wink
  • 7 10
 @mikelevy: E bikes aren't for everybody but they get more people riding and the the technological advancements they are bringing will improve all mountain bikes, especially with the drivetrains.
  • 10 0
 @DoubleCrownAddict: 100% agree with that, and the bikes will get better and more reliable because of them!
  • 9 0
 @mikelevy: Levy has returned!
  • 4 4
 @mikelevy: Yes! Bicycles don't have motors, full stop. This thing is just another step closer to a motorcycle, even if the tech is pretty amazing.
  • 14 0
 can we have E-Zerode bikes now?
  • 2 0
 Please!
  • 10 0
 As someone who has spent too much time on vehicle forums, I'll bet within 6 months we'll see a forum thread along the lines of "I change my oil every 5000km because no oil lasts 10,000km and Pinion just wants your drivetrain to fail prematurely so they can sell you a new one."
  • 1 0
 Was looking through the comments to see if anyone had commented on the 10k km oil life. I ride a Rohloff and they have you changing the oil every 5k km or 1 year, whichever comes first. Rohloff makes a Pinion look like child's play, and they've had some hubs reach almost 500k km. So they know what they're talking about when it comes to the timeframe of an oil change. For Pinion to state that 10k km can be ridden before an oil change, whcih for many people could be years and years of riding, that's asking for a lot of internal troubles.
  • 13 4
 These comments are so toxic. I don't understand why so many people are still butt-hurt about e-bikes "ruining the experience". Regular bikes aren't going anywhere. If you don't want an e-bike, don't buy one. How insecure do you have to be to say e-bikes are ruining the mtb experience for you? And don't try to say they damage the trails - people who skid and slash through corners destroy trails.

Thanks to e-bikes, I get to ride with my 62 year old dad and his busted knees and we both have a great time on the trail. Without e-bikes he would never be able to ride again. It's a huge boost to his physical and mental health and for that reason alone I'm a huge advocate.
  • 3 5
 why do you have to explain every bit of your riding experience to feel validated? "my dad has busted kneed", "your comments are toxic", "regular bikes arent going anywhere",

...and other people opinions are insecure you say.
its just opinions man, just like yours.
  • 8 0
 Needs that TT mounted display, handlebar screen wont last a week for me. And it would be nice if the motor "cover" can actually take a hit or two, most seem to be purely decorative.

Also the gear range seems crazy for an ebike. 9 speed with a 21% jump for a 460% range would be ideal, especially if it let them save a little more weight.
The weight doesn't seem bad for the potential loss of unsprung weight, but the low-power light-weight ebike seems like the way forward to me. Still rides like a push-bike and can be bunnyhopped etc but lets you do a good number of descents without the horrors of an uplift.
So please do an SL version with 9 speeds, 300Watts and pair it with the smaller battery for a Levo SL/Trek Exe killer.
  • 11 1
 Oooppps you've all bought the wrong ebikes! This looks good, let's see what SRAM comes up with.
  • 29 1
 SRAM will probably try to buy Pinion, or the non-union mexican equivalent, and than claim they made gearboxes for 100 years or so
  • 4 4
 SRAM will purchase Pinion, attempt to make it wireless, mess it up, and destroy the reputation before it gets established just so they could continue to sell garbage replacement derailleurs.
  • 9 0
 Can imagine this on the new Pivot lugged carbon downhill bike with a single crown fork.

m.pinkbike.com/news/chris-cocalis-chats-about-pivots-prototype-dh-bike.html
  • 3 0
 Yes! the funny thing is that with that seat angle, plus a motor, that bike would even climb well! As well as having huge ground clearing. GRIM E-DONUT!
  • 1 0
 A Brooklyn Machine Works with built-in uplift.
  • 1 0
 @luckymixes: you said it!
  • 12 1
 TAKE MY MONEY!!
  • 4 2
 Should be ... Shut up and take my money! Big Grin
  • 8 2
 Dear Pinion,

Please offer spare parts, since every eeb motor is destined to break. Other motor companies think I'm too stupid to fix one and won't sell parts. $1000-2000 for a pluck and chuck unit when maybe just a small part failed is dumb on so many levels.
  • 6 0
 I'll buy an ebike when the motor and drive train are finally integrated into one box. This is the first step to forcing the rest of the industry to finally innovate ebikes away from traditional drive-trains.
  • 6 0
 This is the holy f-ing grail. Not sure if ill invest in this gen 1, but, this is finally what us consumers have been wanting-instead we get more complicated heavier stuff. WANT
  • 5 0
 Really, really interesting. Only e-bike-article I‘ve clicked on for quite a while. Very detailed article, although it was almost a bit too long for me (skipped the last Quarter). Very nice job Ralf Smile
  • 4 0
 Really like that Simplon Rapcon Pmax Pinion 170. A smaller lighter battery might be an option idea, my 52v 8ah 420wh is enough for me most of time shuttling, not sparing the watts either. Keeps the bike lighter and front more nimble for the way down.
  • 7 3
 Absolutely incredible tech. Impressed.

As a die hard mountain biker in that 25 plus year category. Everything from bmx, to xc racing to dh racing and now firmly into the “poser expensive bike with a third of the talent” category of rider, I look at this and ask myself. Is it still the same sport of mountain biking?

It has a gear box, a motor, an automatic “clutch” type mechanisms…. Yes it has cranks and yes you need to drive the system…. But battery tech is ever increasing… how long before you can “No pedal” an hour ride on this…. Ummm. Dirt/e-bike?

I’m also a die hard Moto guy, having raced both enduro and track. Selling the ktm 350 a few years ago after a shoulder rebuild I’m totally dedicated to mtb again and considering an ebike. The biggest motivation at this point is because my riding network has went that way. I guess I’m starting to question though where this will go within a year or two.

Hell one of my kids rips his stacyc “e-dirt bike” with me on the trails as it is and likely move up to either a ktm e dirtbike, a pw50 (why bother now though, can’t ride it on mtb trails) or potentially an e-bike that just happens to now also have equivalent suspension, brakes, a gearbox and a motor. And it has pedals to occasionally spin …. Hmmm
  • 12 13
 No, you're right. E-biking is an inherently different activity - which is fine by the way, it also has it's place. I just wish people would stop pretending riding an e-bike is the same as mountainbiking.
  • 8 4
 @Muscovir: It's similar enough to render the comparisons to MX ridiculous. Especially if we consider going downhill to be the important part.
  • 6 6
 @Muscovir: LOL it’s the same thing you just go up the hill 2x faster and do 2x the laps. So much whining. Just go have fun.
  • 5 5
 @Muscovir: It's 99% the same though. The ONLY difference is that you get more done faster. To say otherwise is complete BS.
  • 4 3
 @Blownoutrides: its not cycling. My bosch emtb is more like a super light leg throttle mx than a bicycle. Its all about the throttle/ power use.
  • 4 2
 @Muscovir: MTB is about fun,not being a Karen about ebikes. I ride constantly with people on ebikes an no one complains about being doing a different sport.
I wish in some places got an extra motor in my enduro bike but I love to pedal and suffer.
  • 2 1
 @professed: Defo closer to a bicycle than a motorbike in power, it only produces about half of a horsepower. It is almost nothing
  • 1 0
 @Muscovir: I spend quite a lot of time riding my ebike with the power turned off. (If you’re thinking this is weird, I only have one full-sus and that’s my bike with a motor - and my other bike is a singlespeed hardtail. Sometimes I’d rather have the suspension or gears but don’t want a motor helping out so I have to suffer the weight penalty).
  • 8 1
 This just in: e bikers discover the motorbike transmission and pretend it's revolutionary
  • 3 0
 and here comes the transition of current ebikes into this setup. SL & integrated ebikes... my guess is the normal full power ebikes will start to fade...
I have a full power 180mm ebike and an SL 140mm... Will 100% be swapping my full power for this when it comes available here.
  • 8 2
 This really is the future direction e-bikes should go in. Makes so much sense
  • 6 5
 Next step, remove the pedals and put some pegs on there-like the future direction of the past.
  • 5 0
 I think we are witnessing the next evolution in ebikes motors. I am not even a ebiker but I can appreciate the engineering that went into this.
  • 4 0
 I surprised it took so long for them, imho it was obvious solution for eBikes, especially for commute applications, when u need enclosed durable vandal proof system and some assist
  • 6 0
 A logical step. Stoked on this and what's to come.
  • 13 11
 Foot pegs and throttles ?
  • 5 11
flag Muscovir FL (Jun 20, 2023 at 3:14) (Below Threshold)
 @randalliser: Yes, this!

Since e-biking isn't the same as mountainbiking anyways; why not go all out and just make e-bikes into lightweight electric dirtbikes?
  • 1 0
 @Muscovir: These already exist, like the Cake, the Sur-ron etc.
  • 7 1
 The vintage 5.10s? Bring em' back!
  • 1 1
 This!
  • 7 4
 I still don't understand why the output drive is concentric to the cranks. This means you will always need a tensioner for a full suspension bike. Surely a separate output shaft would be easier to engineer too...
  • 3 0
 Even a separate output shaft would need tensioner, and it would made entire gearbox larger. This solution is quite minimal in terms of size. I wonder if planetary gearbox concentric to the input cranks connected to motor could be even smaller in size. Because instead of three rotating components there would only be two.
  • 5 2
 @fluider: it wouldn’t if it was positioned at the main pivot on a single pivot design - like on almost all motorbikes!
  • 3 3
 @fluider: If the swingarm is concentric to output shaft, there's would be no chain growth. You would need a chain pre-loader but this can be small and neat. See the Starling Spur with Effigear box.
  • 2 2
 @phutphutend: The Starling has very low anti-squat. I don't think I'd want an e-bike with low AS as it would sag into the suspension further and bob when you climb.

To get a main pivot high enough to provide ~100% anti-squat on a 29" bike the output shaft and the bb would need to be quite far apart, and that would really limit the marketability of your product IMO.
  • 2 1
 I'm with you. build the motor housing with nice sturdy swing arm pivot bearing mounts concentric to a raised output shaft and it would be perfect. Belt drive, no tensioner, easy maintenance, weight saved off the frame structure, slight rearward axle path without being crazy. And I suspect that the internal layout would actually be easier than trying to get strong sprag systems concentric to a decent sized crank axle.
  • 4 1
 @AgrAde: you don’t need as much anti-squat on an ebike. A 100% human-powered bike constantly accelerates and decelerates because you produce max torque when cranks are level and min torque when cranks are vertical - that’s why anti-squat helps. A 100% motor powered bike moves at constant speed because the motor produces constant torque regardless of crank angle, so it doesn’t need any anti-squat (see motorbikes).
  • 2 0
 Non-concentric output could give us a high pivot version without the faff of an idler
  • 2 0
 @mattg95: Or better yet, put the output on the same axis as the pivot and use sliding dropouts so we don't need a chain tensioner
  • 1 1
 @threehats: That's not really how it works unfortunately. You've still got the same human component of pulsing power and vertically oscillating mass (which are in sync, which is why bikes typically have higher than 100% AS), and that still makes the same amount of bob. You've just added another component to the drive which pulls the bike further into the travel.

Unlike motorbikes, we need to sit high on the bike so we can pedal. and because we need to pedal, it's hard to maintain a forward weight position when climbing. Because the bike has very little mass, and our sprung mass is quite high off the ground, our COM is pushed further rearward than on a moto when we go uphill. Having the bike sag further into the travel under power is exactly what we don't want, because it further compromises the geometry. I don't want saggy, soft suspension when I'm doing a technical climb on my ebike. I want my seat tube to remain steep, my weight to remain centred, my suspension to remain as close to sag as possible.

Which is why E bikes generally don't have low AS (and i reckon they ride poorly if they do). The older levo did, now the new one has well over 100% at sag.
  • 3 1
 @AgrAde: No. Please go and ride an e-mtb and then talk. Of course there is far less bob on an ebike. The power delivery to the rear wheel is nothing like on an amish bike. It is much more uniform. Suspension design on e-mtb should be vastly different from the muscle bike counterpart.
  • 2 0
 @goroncy: lol Amish bike. One of the more stupid things I've heard a bike called.

I've ridden ebikes. More than one even. Maybe if you aren't putting out any power yourself...?

Regardless, having AS down at 30% or so on an ebike would suck.
  • 1 0
 I have wondered the same thing about the original Pinion gearboxes too, and I have two theories. Perhaps keeping the chainring in the same place makes it easier for frame designers to adopt a Pinion by letting them reuse existing, proven rear triangles/kinematics. Or perhaps hard tails with belts benefit because the rigid chainstay running from BB to hub reduces the required belt tension. Either way, Effigear previously built a gearbox with a high output and it doesn’t seem to have gained wide adoption. Their new ‘box is Pinion-compatible (with concentric cranks and chainring).
  • 2 0
 I think this will be a great stepping stone. Once those small annoyances are ironed out, it sounds like Pinion could be onto a winning product for the e-mtb market, which would force Shramano to also develop gearbox + motor units in order to compete. Then just remove the motor aspect and hey presto Shramano are making gearboxes!!!
  • 2 0
 Awesome innovation.

The hilariously utilitarian German naming conventions are the only thing I can bring myself to poke fun at, although I do appreciate them.

MGU: Motor Gear Unit
MGUE1.12: 12 speed Motor Gear Unit for E-bikes.
...E1.9: ...9 speed
...E.1.12S: ...12 speed sport
etc.

So sexy!
  • 1 0
 Would it be possible to have a motor in the rear hub that powers the rear wheel? Then have a battery on the frame, and have the ability to pedal the cranks, and either add power to the drive train or charge to the battery, Get rid of the chain and run a power cable into the rear hub, Rear hub/engine can then also recharge the battery when applying the rear brake.
Have software and throttle to help control the speed. Kind of like a hybrid car?
  • 7 0
 The downside to a hub motor for a full suspension mountain bike is the unsprung weight. There are already hub motors, has been for years but they are mainly used on commuter bikes.
  • 1 0
 Yes, this is possible. But part of the reason for suspension is to keep the unsprung weight low, so adding a motor at the hub doesn't really help. Your idea actually adds significant weight to both the rear hub as well as the bottom bracket as you need metal coils (with metal cores) and strong magnets for both the motor (hub) and the dynamo (bb and hub). For powerful magnets they use the rare earth metal neodymium. Which because of increasing demand for the electrification everywhere (mobility, wind and water energy etc) could be an issue. Basically, you'll end up with more issues than you'd solve. The hub they use here has a freewheel (at least the DT240 hub they mention in the article) but for instance the Effigear gearbox is designed to work with fixed hubs (which don't have a freewheel). If they'd do that here, they could actually implement regenerative braking indeed (so that the motor works as a dynamo) but this will also mean that the lower portion of the belt or chain will have an effect on the suspension. For conventional designs where the chain/belt is only being used for propulsion, they only need to look at the loads in the top part of the chain when designing the suspension. For regenerative braking, they also need to look at the lower part. It can probably be done, but it might be tricky. Especially as the load path is so long that you may be able to use it for dragging along longer descends, but it isn't sufficiently accurate for those more precise braking jabs. And that, with two different types of braking on a single rear wheel with suspension, might actually be quite hard to design properly.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: 100% moving the freewheel inside the gearbox would allow regen and make the rear wheel even lighter but then the risk is something stuck in the belt like a rock that could be catastrophic.

But the gains from regen would completely offset lower efficiency and increase range especially using blended regen braking with control through the rear brake lever. controlling 0 to 100% Regen with the initial travel of the brake lever then disc brake engages, although that would require very precise adjustment of the hydraulic brake to provide a natural feel. also locking the rear wheel with the rear brake could be pretty hard on the drivetrain?

The huge issue with "serial hybrid" rear hub + generator on the crankshaft and purely electric transmission is you can't help the motor anymore with pedalling. the motor is doing all of the work and you are just helping the battery to increase range. if climb is too steep for the motor torque, you can pedal as hard as you can, the bike is still going to slow down to a stop or if the motor is barely capable to climb at very slow speed it's going to overheat pretty quickly.
so now not only you are losing the mechanical torque advantage of a mid drive with gear reduction and putting the motor in the worst place, you need the motor to have enough torque for both your power plus the pedal assist, and you need another generator (motor) to convert your power. so instead of for instance one motor that adds up to your output and doubles it you now need 3x the total motor power for the same effect, plus watt for watt, even heavier motors to provide enough torque.
also for bike enthusiast losing that mechanical connection between pedals and wheel is probably never gonna cut it, you are now riding an e-moped with pedals instead of a throttle...
  • 1 0
 How does one acquire the S Versions of ebikes? I never see them on sale. Seems the sensible choice.
Asking for a friend who has a private estate..

Hopefully someone will make proper metal frames for these new motors. Was also saddened to see both the simplon and bulls have got the daft kind of seat tubes that don’t allow a full length dropper. Just stop it!
  • 1 0
 I'd say these are OEM, only. Most E-Bike Drive-Units are.
  • 1 0
 @Morrrice: yeah I don’t mind buying the rest of the bike. Just want the fast version!
  • 1 0
 Bulls and flyer make the S version, So jump on the ferry and go to Germany at the end of 2023 or start of delivery March 2024 and pick one up. BTW dropper posts on an the fast SUV bike? If you want to jump off the side of a mountain then just buy the muddy slow version.
  • 1 0
 @onpistetom: yes, very tempting. Are s-pedelecs a particularly german thing. Bike retailers don’t seem to do them in uk.
I fancy branching out… maybe s-pedelecs R us could be my devious new business venture?
  • 5 0
 Our wildest dreams come true.
  • 7 1
 This is the way.
  • 4 0
 Pop that electronic shifting into your manual boxes to get away from grip shift and take my money!
  • 1 0
 There’s a Video from e-MTB News Germany but they mounted a Microphone directly to the Motor which is stupid. They could have just used the Camera Audio. Btw all Camera action shots are w/o Audio which does not speak for the competence of the Filmmaker/Video Producer. Audio Mixing is no Rocket Science…
Aside that: Great Motor, great good looking Bike if you compare it to Rotwild or even the ugly Bulls…

youtu.be/B_MQKkuw840
  • 1 0
 Wouldn't the larger rear gear actually limit the suspension design options for engineers? In a traditional cassette, a significant amount of chain growth is mitigated by the movement to a 9 or 10T gear. On the Pinion system, you are fixed to what looks like an equivalent to a "middle" gear - this is going to impute WAY more pedal kickback and eliminates the possibility of a rearward axle path.
  • 2 0
 Looks kinda neat and the bike looks stunning, its not solving any problems, just a different solution. Only need a few gears when you have a motor which could save some weight and complexity.
  • 2 0
 Annnnd there it is. By version 2.0 they should be ahead of the best derailleurs. Hopefully the proprietary battery / motor stuff is at least on par with other offerings and doesn’t hold them back.
  • 3 0
 If you're making this, for the love of god...please get rid of the stupid chain. I want the ultra-low maintenance belt, not a chain
  • 1 0
 Sick! definitely one of the cooler pieces of tech in a while. i've always liked the idea of pinion gearboxes but i never got one because of the weight but implement it into a motor, build an ebike around it and i think that's a winning formula!
  • 1 0
 Motor + gearbox makes a lot of sense. They really put it all together into a nice package that doesn't cause retina damage like some of the early e-bikes.(Pivots with the increasingly bloated bottom tube digesting a small mammal).

Only reason I'd get an ebike is for pulling trail tools, and getting rid of that rear cassette and enabling a heavy duty chain is fantastic for wear parts and reliability with that higher torque!
  • 1 0
 What happen is battery dies ?
Like safe mode like axs. How pedaling feels with motor of ?
By the way this is a huge step forward what a shame that valeo and exigeât haven’t been able to put a real marketing communication when they presented their own gearbox motor systems months ago…
  • 1 0
 With motor off it feels natural and not a burden
  • 1 0
 Anyone know if the bolt pattern to the cabinet is the same between the E12 and C12 versions of the Pinion gearbox?

If bringing a combo electric motor and gear box to the market hasten the adoption of gearboxes, I'm all for that change!

I love my Pinion gearbox.
  • 2 2
 looks well specced, a bit of a shame it doesn't appear to have the same mounting points as either the gearbox or a more mainstream e-bike motor manufacturer to improve uptake - the bikes available with this are likely to all be niche and relatively expensive as a result.
  • 2 0
 I wouldn't say they were relatively expensive, is that not the going rate for a mid-high end ebike these days anyway? I really hope this gets taken up by big manufactures.. however.. the politics involved, maybe their hands are tied to suppliers. Hopefully this will break the mold!
  • 3 1
 @steviestokes: The biggest manufacturers will probably want to come up with their own solutions, as to not having to rely on 3rd party tech. But I'm pretty sure everybody else will jump on this system very quickly. And why not. It makes so much more sense than having a derailleur on an e-bike.
  • 1 0
 @Muscovir: Shimano make their own ebike motors and the biggest groupset manufacturer I guess..they are the most likely to mass produce this kind of motor gearbox unit hopefully with same mounting points for easy fit into existing e-step ebikes.. the problem is current group set life span and frequent "innovations" makes it easier to sell replacements/upgrades. longer lifespan but higher initial cost is a tough sell even if it saves money in the long term
  • 3 1
 I see all those heavily discounted ebikes might be getting even cheaper by autumn now that you can buy ones with gearboxes… neat!
  • 5 0
 FINALLY !
  • 4 0
 finally.... this will destroy the current transmision for sure
  • 4 2
 For e-bikes sure. Gearbox has been around for a while and we still don’t want them on regular bikes.
  • 3 0
 I mean, for an ebike, this makes the most sense. Seems like the weight is pretty impressive, actually.
  • 2 1
 I was about to trade the Bullit in for a Voima but this throws a wrench in those plans....Guess I'll put up with the santa cruz creaks a bit longer and hope pinions design is adopted by the major manufacturers.
  • 4 0
 Does the gearbox still have terrible engagement?
  • 1 0
 The engagement is quiet and swift, highly recomended.
  • 1 1
 It's a no-brainer to couple a transmission inside the motor casing, if you have one anyway. Very cool, and I wish them great success.

However, this looks surprisingly like a stick version of the motorcycle sitting in my garage. Once "assistance" goes to 500%+, what's the point of your leg movement?
  • 1 0
 depends what's the maximum amount of torque available. but I agree increasing the assist ratio with same maximum torque means reducing the level of control and eventually you end up with an on/off switch that is just like a quicker reacting cadence sensor, without the control of a torque sensor.
  • 14 14
 Just remove the pedals and add pegs. Seriously-by the time you put an internal transmission and a motor between two wheels, what's the point of pedals? Bropeds are "pedal assist" not "motor assist" so don't kid yourself into thinking you're doing any meaningful work riding one of these.

And....all the fawning over tech that's been on purely motorized bikes for decades??

The whole broped thing is just a way to get motorized vehicles on non-motorized trails. It's working and that's not a good thing.......
  • 7 10
 " "Bropeds are "pedal assist" not "motor assist" so don't kid yourself into thinking you're doing any meaningful work riding one of these." "

Then why do my knees and legs hurt after an ebike ride? (I rode normal bikes for 30 years btw) What do you get from making this kind of statement?
  • 10 6
 That's the key "a way to get motorized vehicles onto non-motirized trails"

Ruin the experience of everyone else who's on foot or normal bikes so you can have your instant gratification
  • 6 5
 @BenPea: You hurt because you aren't that strong. You can generate under 20 watts (barely enough to get a bicycle rolling) and still have access to 300 watts (enough to push a road bike at 40+ kph on the flats, 25-35 kph on flat dirt). If you CHOOSE to pedal harder, you can, but you can also juuuuust turn the pedals and still go fast.

You aren't putting out a couple hundred watts all day-or you'd still be on a bicycle going pretty fast.
  • 5 3
 @wyorider: I didn't choose to sustain a serious injury, develop chronic pain and lose fitness that I realistically won't recover. I'm pretty old too, but cak still rip downhill, but what, I just take up swimming instead?
  • 3 3
 @Dogl0rd: lol, how do ebikes ruin your experience? I'm genuinely curious
  • 5 1
 @BenPea: You also can't use vehicles in wilderness areas (even bicycles). Some places might (just might) be better without motorized recreation. I'm not opposed to eBikes, but I am opposed to just opening non-motorized trails en masse. And that's the push the bike industry is making.
  • 2 4
 @wyorider: I won't be riding it in the US so you're fine. I can't think of any places I've ridden that would suffer as a result of me being on an ebike as opposed to having the fitness of one of those dudes who are into "Everesting" or some of crazies I've ridden with in the past. I could say that it's the guys and girls who ride 100 miles a week on normal bikes, rain or shine, who are f*cking up the trails.
  • 3 1
 @wyorider: don't get me wrong, I still think it's better to ride a non-e-bike if you can.
  • 2 0
 If they come package this with a solid state battery that will last me 10 years and charge in 15 minutes, I will be taking out a loan.
  • 7 4
 When I see an ebike..it reminds me of those fat fuks who ride the basket scooters at Walmart.
  • 1 0
 haven't seen them on ebikes though
  • 3 0
 Bosch and Shimano just exited the ebike chat and will need sometime before reentering.
  • 2 0
 Been waiting years for this, don't stuff this up Pinion, you literally have market domination ahead of you if this works well.
  • 2 2
 This article glosses over the critical infrastructure that you will need as the owner of an e-moped. This was illustrated in NYC recently when a fire in a moped store killed several people and critically injured others.

If you own one you will need a concrete (fireproof) room in which to charge it. With more and more electric vehicles you can expect to see building codes requiring this in the future. Right now it's recommended that you charge electric cars outside of your home, a cheap Chinese made moped is a lot bigger risk.
  • 1 1
 grasping at straw, this shits funny dude!
  • 1 0
 @norona: How is it grasping? The fire risk is a matter of fact.
  • 1 0
 @corerider: i bet more riders have become paralyzed by mtb vrs their ebikes catching on fire so by your estimation we should all stop riding period, I 3 e-mtb in my house as well as two lift e-foils where the battery is 4 x more power full than an ebike battery, and e-skateboard for over 5 years, no issue, and not worried one bit
  • 1 0
 The point of European ebike certification is the chargers and batteries are designed properly and no corners cut of safety. My German made and Supplied ebikes is 4 years old and the trickle charger takes all night and the battery never gets warm.
  • 1 0
 @norona: 13 people have died from e-bike battery fires so far this year. This is not a made-up problem.
  • 4 0
 Bosch! Take that SRAMano
  • 3 0
 WOW ! I like the idea and i like the bikes featuring it !!!
  • 3 0
 Pegs and a throttle and im in.
  • 2 0
 About bloody time someone did this, took them long enough though, now I may consider an ebike at some point in the future.
  • 3 1
 Future 'bike' tech and development is going to be centered around e-bikes, this is clear.
  • 6 3
 Lol so it’s almost a dirt bike ….so close
  • 2 0
 Pinions can last a decade with just oil changes. Ebike motors start having issues after a few years. Who will win?
  • 2 1
 Wow, surprised there's actually almost no e-Bike bashing here! Guess if you make everything Pinion and have it with a motor, it's the best of both worlds.
  • 15 16
 i dont think it can get any more clear: THESE ARE MOTORCYCLES.

What's next? Traction control so you dont spin out on dusty climbs b/c you're riding something that multiples your power by 400%?!? Which is absolutely insane....

ebikes are going to divide the bike industry and ruin friend groups: people riding normal bikes, and those riding ebikes that dont want to wait around for their friends.
  • 7 6
 Already does ruin it
  • 9 9
 @Dogl0rd: Fit people already ruined biking. Forcing everyone to rush & catch up and/or making everyone feel like crap for having to wait around .
  • 5 6
 Ebikes have actually increased my "friend group".... I know, wierd eh? I can now go for a rip in boost with the other ebike guys in the morning then for another with the naturally aspirated crew in the evening. It's f*cking glorious.

Also, the n/a guys love it because they push harder to keep up and get in even better shape. In fact I feel like a coach sometimes riding behind them and encouraging them to get more orange squiggly line kom's.
  • 2 2
 @darwin: There friends who I sometimes don't ride with because I just can't be bothered to kill myself to keep up, but we're the same on the downs. Seems like a positive to me. My only beef with E is all the new ways it can screw up, on top off all the problem acoustic bikes already have from riding regularly.
  • 5 4
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Yup that was me. I'm not a 140lb stickman so trying to keep up to those mofos was impossible and I always felt like I was holding them up. On the downs I was always right behind them... unless I was puking up a lung and seeing double from the last climb lol.

I've been mountain biking since I was a teenager... because its fun. Ebikes have increased the fun factor x10, don't get me started on efat bikes that allow me/us to ride ungroomed trails all winter. They're freaking brilliant.

The extra complexity isn't something I like either but so far I've been lucky and none of my 3 eebs have left me stranded or had any beep boop issues. So far...
  • 2 2
 @darwin: I'm waiting until I'm 50 or a lighter 150/160 with long range comes out that is less than 7k. Until then I'll keep playing acoustic, but I'm definitely e-curious.
  • 4 6
 Exactly. Just look at the comments. I'm sure the 'friends' are real stoked to share the trail and do the distances they earned thru hard work and tenacity with someone on a moped lmao get real. The easy route will never be respected.
  • 3 2
 @Bro-LanDog: Nobody asked for or cares about your respek BroDog
  • 3 0
 @darwin: Don't care didn't ask
  • 1 0
 Ebikes are not dividing the industry they are taking over. The era of Analogue is fading.
  • 1 0
 @onpistetom: you're about a century late for the motorvehicle revolution lol
  • 1 0
 Hope all of the other motor manufactures have their R&D departments hard at work on their version of the integrated gear box.
  • 1 0
 Can’t wait to try it !

Wonder how much sram is paying to get this down onto the second page with less viewers seeing it .
  • 3 0
 Hats down, makes sense
  • 2 0
 Should replace that PR with an M on the Rotwild.
  • 2 0
 The only kind of E-Bike I'd consider buying. Can't wait!
  • 1 0
 Give me this drivetrain with e-trigger shifting on a carbon fiber analog trail bike and take my money.
  • 2 0
 The Rotwild doesn't look half bad.
  • 2 0
 This is the kind of ebike I'd remortgage my house for.
  • 1 1
 This is actually the coolest application of motor/gearbox I have seen for mountain bikes. Motor with a traditional der/cassette has always been weird to me.
  • 2 1
 Interesting.... Looks about the same size as what Finn and Bruni are hiding on their bikes.
  • 2 1
 Unless I missed it, the review didn’t mention how efficiently it felt to pedal with the motor off?
  • 1 0
 very natural. nothing like the original Bosch,. smooth
  • 3 1
 Anyone want to volunteer to handle land access agreement revisions ?
  • 1 0
 It’s fantastic. I’d love one!
I’ll put my money towards a motorcycle before this thing.
  • 2 0
 Does this mean there will be a Zerode E bike
  • 3 0
 I would be very surprised if they didn't grab this opportunity and run with it.
  • 19 18
 Amazing! Just needs a throttle and we’d be complete!
  • 2 3
 @bottleblurrocket: It's actually got a no "braap" function built in so....
  • 2 2
 I was about to comment...just get a dirtbike
  • 1 1
 A Pinion drive and a motor! All in the same space? Next thing someone will suggest through-headset cable routing!...
  • 1 0
 2025 for north america?? SUXXXX
  • 1 0
 Does your hand sit half way off of the right grip?
  • 1 0
 Now if only my p1.18 would Just stop skipping this would Be great
  • 2 0
 What could go wrong..
  • 1 0
 But where'd he get those high top 5 tens?
  • 1 0
 everyone: commenting on the pinion
me: where can i get those sneaks
  • 1 0
 This makes a lot of sense!
  • 1 0
 I want a non E mechanical gear box with wireless shifting.
  • 1 0
 Thank you pinion for not giving up and keep on going!
  • 1 0
 Nothing to go wrong here. Move along.
  • 1 0
 I'll wait for digital drive.
  • 1 0
 Anyone else wanting to hear Chris Porter’s thoughts on this?
  • 1 0
 to GOOD to believe why are we not getting a video
  • 1 0
 First e-bike content with universal acclaim
  • 1 1
 Awesome!!!! moving in the right direction but lets keep battery sizing below 650W
  • 1 0
 Sex dating➤ u.to/mWPGHw
  • 1 1
 This is what the progression of technology is all about.
  • 1 0
 tl;dr

is it any good?
  • 1 0
 About time............
  • 1 2
 Liking this gearbox but when will the make a regular gearbox you can shift under load?
  • 1 1
 TLDR: does it shift under load?
  • 1 0
 no wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
  • 1 2
 clearly paid by the word. I started skimming, and eventually just skipped to the comments.
  • 1 0
 About time ...no brainer
  • 3 5
 Good innovations, but still a heavy ebike. I thought the industry was moving to lighter ebikes.
  • 8 3
 I see far more full size massive e bikes on trails than the lighter e-bikes. I don’t think e-bikers actually want the lighter weight less power ones. They just talk like they do.
  • 1 0
 @MillerReid: some do. Some don’t.
Personally, I’ll stick with my full power bike.
  • 2 2
 @BermJunky: now thats the proper term for a bike without a motor
  • 2 0
 @MillerReid: Availability, price and brand selection of full e-bikes is way better than current light e-bikes. You can actually find used full e-bikes where I live. I love the feel of the lighter bikes they essentially ride like a modern enduro bike weight wise. That being said you can only really get around 3000 feet of climbing out of one in trail mode unless you get secondary battery. This is a deal breaker for me personally. Im still really fit so an ebike for me serve the purpose of doing shuttle laps on a down hill area where i could log in 6000 feet of climbing in a few hours. This tech really is interesting and may push the ebike industry in that direction. Im still holding out for universal chargers and lighter batteries and some sort of recycling program for the batteries. I really don’t think traditional drivetrains or bikes are going away. Way to easy to work on for home mechanics. Many of us really like the visceral masochistic connection of a tuff ascent that comes from a self powered bike. Ebikes are fun and are getting better every week.
  • 1 0
 @MillerReid: I think that has to do with availability not demand. There are very few lighter ebikes on the market.
  • 1 0
 @Dangerhill: I love to pedal up, but after 30 years of mtb-ing, I have some overuse injuries in my knee. I am still fit, riding an analog bike, and doing a good amount of vertical, but looking to protect my knee and prolong my riding for as long as possible.

I did have an ebike for a short time, but didn't like the heavy weight. Also, I found that I only was using the lowest power level, so the light ebike is perfect for me. However, there are few options and none I really like, plus they are really pricey. I still think companies will release more of them.
  • 1 0
 @tacklingdummy: Yes if someone was giving me one right now I would opt for the lighter version and a piggyback battery. For me riding a full ebike didn’t feel like riding a bike. It felt like a different animal all together mostly bc of the weight. Still super fun. I do think in 3-5 years things are gonna be getting completely different mostly due to new battery tech.
  • 17 19
 These "bikes" keep morphing into what they really are.
Motorcycles with pretend pedals.
  • 10 11
 Yep. Just a way to get motorcycles on non motorized trails.
  • 5 7
 @wyorider: Yeah nothing to do with bike sales, all the bike companies are just secretly conspiring a way to get motorcycles on our bicycle trails.
  • 2 4
 @DoubleCrownAddict: the more motos on the trails, the more dollass $$$$
  • 1 3
 @DoubleCrownAddict: nothing secret about trying to sell product to well heeled out of shape customers. As for long-term trail issues, the bike industry doesn't care. It was volunteers that stepped up to gain (or regain) access to trails in the 1990's. The bike industry was happy to sell bikes without regard for access issues then-and now.
  • 2 2
 @Dogl0rd: ummmm.......yeah. And lousier trails.
  • 1 1
 The chinese have already added throttles. Way ahead.
  • 4 1
 @wyorider: There is a big different between a Class-1 pedal assist bikes and motorcycles. Issue is more about the organizations the manage the trails and their understanding of the different. I am eMTBer and I DO NOT want motorcycles on any hiking / biking trails.
  • 7 1
 @mr-epic-3: Class 1 pedal assist bikes are a tune away from being a LOT faster. Places like this ebiketuning.com will turn the wick up. And there will be no enforcement of power restrictions.

You are an eMtber and this is the problem you're creating.
  • 3 3
 @mr-epic-3: well keep in mind motos have made many of the trails out there..esp in us.
The ol move next to an airport and complain about noise deal.
  • 2 1
 @jrocksdh: uhh mot riders don't ride DH tracks much unless they ride up them, which I also a huge safety problem at some trail centers
  • 2 1
 moto*
  • 1 0
 @Dogl0rd: it's super fun moton up ST.
Now if it's an mtb made trail system then I agree. But here in south west. Laguna; the sierra etc..most were originally made by motos.
  • 1 0
 @jrocksdh: yeah and it's a huge safety risk. Look at 007 at Bass Lake. It's an officially designated downhill only trail and MTB riders have been injured in collisions with motos riding up the trail. What's your point?
  • 1 0
 @Dogl0rd: point was made 1st comment. That's is, many trails were moto 1st.
  • 2 4
 And a belt drive. Dumbest part of the specialized bike system. They do break and the you are stranded.
  • 1 0
 I have often wondered this point myself with belts....at least with a chain you can carry a tool and some spare chain and be on your ride with a drive failure. I have no idea how to fix the belt unless you carry one?
  • 2 3
 12k Euro+? I’ll take a 125cc motocross bike and 9k Euro change please.
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