First Ride: Shimano's New Steps EP8 eMTB System
It wasn’t a question of if, but when Shimano was going to introduce a new flagship motor. The days of the old Steps E8000 were numbered. Long live the brand new STEPS EP8!
All new, all better. With 21 percent more torque than the E8000, now offering up to 85Nm, compared to the old system's 70Nm, with a maximum power output of 500W The EP8 (DU-EP800) isn’t just more powerful, it has become more compact and lighter at the same time.
All new, all better. With 21 percent more torque than the E8000, now offering up to 85Nm, compared to the old system's 70Nm, with a maximum power output of 500W The EP8 (DU-EP800) isn’t just more powerful, it has become more compact and lighter at the same time.
Shimano EP8 Details
• 85nM torque
• 500W maximum power output
• Magnesium drive unit case
• Weight: 2.6 kg
• 36% reduction in drag compared to previous version
• New assist algorithm.
• 85nM torque
• 500W maximum power output
• Magnesium drive unit case
• Weight: 2.6 kg
• 36% reduction in drag compared to previous version
• New assist algorithm.
Another big improvement over the old motor is a 36 percent reduction in drag and greatly reduced driving noise. Heat management has been optimized by introducing heat dissipating materials, an increased surface area in the case and even a refined heat management algorithm.
Speaking of algorithms, Shimano has completely reworked their assist algorithm for all of their support modes, organically matching the rider’s efforts and delivering the right power at the right time. Instead of a single assist ratio for each riding mode the new algorithm constantly calculates the ideal assist ratio depending on the situation.
The motor mounts remain the same so older frames can hold the new motor.
New thumb remote with slightly larger buttons.
The new SC-EM800 display: similar from the outside, new internals.
There’s a new display, the SC-EM800, which looks very similar to the known SC-E8000 but features a more capable chipset, expanded compatibility with third party computers thanks to ANT, and the ability to select two different custom ride profiles. Also, with this display compatible new wires can transmit data faster due to increased bandwidth and make the system future-proof for new features.
A new handlebar-mounted assist switch (SW-EM800) with larger buttons and greater tactile feedback is now available, as is a new chain guide (CD-EM800).
A 160mm crank arm option has been added to the 165, 170 and 175mm range, keeping the Q-factor at a narrow 177mm.
Also updated is the E-Tube Project app that can communicate with Shimano’s electronic equipment (Di2 shift components also). In terms of customization, the options are expanded massively, allowing the riders to adjust each ride mode with ten different assist curves to control how quickly the power ramps up to match their input. Additionally, the maximum torque limit can be set between 25 to 85 Nm of torque.
Most Shimano displays can communicate wirelessly via Bluetooth with the app.
Ride Impressions
Due to a series of unfortunate events, I couldn’t ride the new motor anywhere near as much as could have been possible, but then again, the few extended rides that I did get in, I depleted the battery every time and collected some proper testing impressions.
Merida’s 2021 eONE-SIXTY 8000 with carbon front triangle, mixed 29/27.5” wheel setup and smart details - like Thermo Gate cooling vents at the steer tube area to help warm air from the battery to dissipate - acted as our test bike. With Merida and Shimano having worked closely together when developing the frames that were launched in 2020, their entire range has now been upgraded with the larger 630Wh internal battery (500Wh for XS size), enhanced Energy Guard battery cover with softer outside material to reduce noise and help sealing the battery compartment, further integrated cable routing, front light and of course the brand-new Shimano STEPS EP8 motor. Our model was equipped with Shimano’s SC-E7000 display, the two higher carbon models 9000 and 10K feature the new SC-EM800 display version.
Time to play: good riddance to error W013 - the new EP8 can finally be started up quickly without any hassle, even when pedaling.
It’s pretty obvious just how much more powerful the new EP8 is. Not only more powerful, but more well-rounded, with torque smoothly progressing, no matter what mode you’re running the bike in. Gone is the jerking motion that sometimes especially accompanied the Boost setting. Even when starting out in steep sections, the motor reacts extremely sensitive to pedal input and it’s rather easy to transfer the power to the ground and keep the wheels from spinning.
All of this at the sensation of how quiet the new EP8 is, almost taking it to a new level in the category of full-size motors. Even in Boost mode, under full load, the noise does not amass to much more than a low hum, hard to even recognize over the ambient noise of a ride.
Also, the base setup of the Trail mode has become much more fun to use. At least in theory, when checking the range between Trail and Eco mode, it almost doubles in distance thanks to their new algorithm. Naturally, the support from the motor is much less in Eco compared to Boost, or now even Trail, but I assume that there are still going to be a lot of people that will want to ride predominately in this mode to get some workout in. Although I have not ever spent much time in Eco with the E8000, other than when I was in trouble with my remaining range, the new support algorithm is also noticeably affecting the lowest support mode in a positive way.
Although it wasn’t bad before, pushing beyond the 25km/h threshold also feels more natural now with the reduction in drag, apart from the fact that having to keep a heavy e-bike at speed will always be a bit more challenging. As far as overall range goes, the new EP8 system seems to be benefiting from its enhanced efficiency and should be right there with its biggest competitors, although I’ll have to run my little test lap for some comparable numbers.
Better than before, but still noticeable, is the transition every time you start spinning the cranks from standstill and when stopping to pedal. For lack of a better description, it’s sort of a subtle double-clicking resistance that can slightly be felt through the pedals and, if you pay attention, even be heard. While it doesn’t really affect the ride quality, I’m going to need to spend some more time with the system to see if there are certain situations where that sensation becomes annoying.
Most importantly, once you are pedaling, transitions from the motor support is perfectly seamless and feels extremely natural. Kudos to the new algorithm.
Finally, Shimano’s Walk Mode is now usable. Easy to shift into and activated with the thumb remote, it pushes the bike along powerfully, no matter what gear you’re running. At the push of another button, you’re back to your regular riding mode.
Unfortunately, when trying to connect to our test bike with the E-Tube app there was an error, since the new motor wasn’t part of the official system yet, so I can’t say to what degree the modes can get affected.
Even with as little time as I spent on Shimano’s new EP8, it’s safe to say that it’s an improvement over the E8000 in every single way. I will spend a lot more time with the new system for a detailed review and run it head to head to some of its biggest competitors to figure out in what areas it does perform better and where it still has some catching up to do. Stay tuned.
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That clearly could factor chosing a brand over another.
Situation: There are 14 competing standards.
"14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases."
Soon: There are 15 competing standards.
Problem is price in tge first place. I would never by a e-moped, when I can have a full enduro motorcycle for +2000€
In a way it's like changing the bottom bracket. It's just a huge bottom bracket.
I'm sure there would still be many people who would change bike every year or two though this could moderatly boost the value of bikes on second hand market, and help people with a restrained budget to get an up do date bike.
Also maybe motor/battery technology could soon reach some kind of plateau ? I mean the size. It'll probably keep shrinking, but only up to a point, which could then help make things more durable.
Hopefully this psuedo shuttle park use of local trails would be accompanied by increased participation in the mtb community and trail maintenance days. Appealing idea indeed!
3 months ago and it’s been at the dealership 1 month as it’s not working lol
she’s only done 50 miles on it which where not on the trails for the battery to die and needing a replacement..
Definitely to many things to go wrong with them in my opinion for it to be reliable..
Also come on man. A decade on the same BB? You often get that much life out of one? Never have myself.
I finally pulled the trigger just because several friends had one and woulsbt stop talking about how fun it was.
I'm now 100% HOOKED! I have a 3 mile trial literally in my back yard but it's super smooth and flat. The Ebike allows me to go so fast the whole time that even the tiny little downhills and content turns become quite fun. It will never be a replacement for my DH bike but it's WAY more fun than my XC on that trail. On any other trail it makes things twice as fun because it allows for things like uphill jumps and hitting sections full speed that are normally slow and awkward.
Very much worth it!
I was responding to a comment talking about riding climbs and slow jank like a descent. It sounds like a total party, but that's where people go when they don't want to deal with people living out their Gwin fantasy.
Honestly, if you goal is straight up legs and cardio, there are better options out there than any mtb. And if you want to only give 90% instead of 100 then that's cool too. But if you are looking for exaggerated speeds to test yourself while at your maximal EFFORT over time. An ebike is a great training tool. Especially if your local trail if super boring otherwise. Like mine.
Nothing beats trainer and a road bike for cardio work tho so that argument means nothing to me.
Ah bless ya!
Do you mean 25 kmh is fast?
And thus the E-bike arms race continues! This is, imo, the biggest issue with e-bikes. At a certain point, with every new model, these motors are going to be so powerful that these bikes will edge closer and closer to the motorcycle/dirt bike side of things. Which makes regulation all that more difficult in trail systems...
One of my concerns that I don't see addressed is how does it register a cadence over 120? Most eMTBs cut out at that point, just like above ~20 mph. Sometimes you just gotta spin in prep of a feature.
Who could've predicted that slippery slope eh?
Local trail here has already turned into a total shit show over the past couple of years. E-bike riders blasting up the downhill only trail.
Doesn't matter how many times you talk to them about erosion caused by tearing up the trail from the wrong direction, or the risk of collision with other trail users.
More power annually as the business model, really? How about less power, and more education as a model for sustainability of sales?
Trail was originally designed and has been continually armored and maintained for strength in one direction, downhill. Main issue is rocks being pulled out when pressure is applied from the wrong side. We're talking dozens of large rocks that have been anchored for decades.
Wet season is coming and we can't keep up with the damage.
Designated uphill climb is a separate trail with a gentler slope and is sustainable.
And yeah, erosion is a problem MTB'ers have collectively always worked to control and mitigate. It's up there in importance to us with trail access.
Sightlines, risk of collision, going against established traffic patterns, other issues aside.
As for collolisions. There is atleast as many collisions involving regular mtb's and that is very few. The reason being people have an aversion to running into things, particularly other people. Thays why emtb is allowed on 2 way trails everyehere emtb knowledge is evolved. As an example we have a big network of 2 way enduro moto trails that are singletrack and motos have the ability to go faster where the trail allows. Still there is not a rash of collisions. Im sure on occasion there may be incidents but ive heard of none . People just arent running into people or atleast any more than normal if you take the increased covid traffic out of the equation
Risk of collisions is a non-argument as well. Enduro MX trails can be effectively indistinguishable from MTB trails and are generally bi-directional. Head-on collisions are not some epidemic in enduro-MX riding...So....ya....I've got thousands of miles riding a dirt bike on busy 2-way trails. I had a minor head on (with a dumbass quad) ONCE. And that's while riding at much higher speeds than any e-MTB is going to be going uphill.
Sur-Rons, with pedals and cranks showed up about a year later and exasperated the already existing problem. Many of the same people, but now on upgraded more powerful electric bikes climbing the same route.
Traditionally we've had a climbing trail, and descending trail. Not an uncommon arrangement as far as I've ever seen.
But for the most part I believe they may be genuinely clueless. "It's fun" is as deep as it goes.
I had a serious injury many years back but, luckily, can still ride a bike. However, I struggle A LOT with with endurance and I fall a lot going uphills and through anything remotely technical because of the weakness in my legs. Now with an eBike I can ride without falling and in more varied terrain with my kid and with my friends. It’s been a life changing game changer of colossal proportions. Those who say eBikes are “cheating” probably won’t go back to a steel, full hard tail 26 inch bike and give up all the modern, plush technology that helps them shred. Including shuttling and chairlifts. Right?
The fact that its backward compatible mechanically is great.
ebike-mtb.com/en/shimano-ep8-old-vs-new
If you release unfinished products, at least deliver updates that fix that. Same as in the gaming industry or as Tesla is doing for its cars. The possibility to improve functionality years later is the biggest advantage of doing things in software.
What about end customers? In 5 years time when someone has worn out or broken an E8000, could you drop in a modern replacement assuming this trend continues?
Perfect example: I did a 35 mile ride yesterday on my 26 inch slayer... 165/160mm... Hit a few chunky DH lines.. Averaged around 11mph and was at roughly 75%... Quite tired by the end of ride. A lot of ebikes nowadays could do that same exact ride and I wouldn't even be tired at the end
With an emtb, I'd consider myself being far more out biking.
Isn't that what it is all about?
From what I understand from people living in the Alps, climbs are either boring fire roads or tech and fun but too steep for anyone to pedal up unassisted. I guess that's where it could be fun. To either pick up the challenge on these super steep tech climbs or just have a mellow chat with your mates on the fireroad climb (or even pull unassisted friends along). I can see that make more sense than shuttling a truck or taking a cable car. Of course people have different views on this, that's what different options are for.
This discussion has been going in circles for years now and for years I haven't seen new arguments brought forward. I won't respond here any further. If you want to keep the discussion going, ideally I'd recommend you dig up a dead horse from an earlier thread and start beating that one. That should keep it all nice and central and maybe take it somewhere, someday.
Sure I can understand some won't have a problem, but using my bike all year, replacing BBs almost every 2 years...and I think I'm not alone on tgis one!
New Bb is around 20ish euros (Shimano), a new motor is what? 600/700€??
This isn't a problem... this is The Problem, and I'm all Shimano fanboy!
Bro...this is what everyone had been waiting for. slap the new powerhouse on the old frame and get rid of the shitty old shimano motor.
I would love to see a good controller motor drive teardown, or just have one here to do a teardown myself
Would be fun comparing it to what we put into some extreme environments where I used to work.
Do not think all e-components are at all needed, but not likely to be able just remove some from printed boards
But would prefer to have e-bike with a lot less to go wrong?
There will be lots of parts on the board, all of them probably needed for certain jobs, some might be redundant or left over components from the initial design, gives the engineer something to cost improve (CIP) in the future...
Would be interesting to see what is on the PCBA having worked on brushless motor drive design for a number of years, mostly for oil and gas and defence.
Its just a case of figuring out how it is fastened down, unless they have a final anti tamper stage in manufacturing, which means its harder for them to get product back and fault find, but they might have test points and a jig for that, depending on how far they have taken their design.
I imagine they are making 10's of thousands of units and not hundreds of thousands or millions. But will probably still have full automatic test equipment (ATE), but manual rework.
My guess from how some companies work....
I would not be surprised if there is a customer care/complaints team somewhere that you phone when things go wrong, or the bike shop phones (sometimes these use smart scripts to bucket issues before any return), the calls are logged, the returned item might go to a product analysis lab somewhere. They might have standard work instructions to follow which buckets the issue as a known issue (Not a fan of these as new issues tend to get put in one of these buckets), and if PA cant see what the issue is then the issue might get escalated to R&D. Issue reporting tends to be scaled based on when a product was launched, new launches get 100% coverage, mature products might be 10% or less. Only a small percentage of product that has a return request put in actually comes back, so the sample size for investigations can be low.
If too many similar issues come in the complaints team report this, its investigated and at worst you get a CAPA (corrective and preventative action), if its something not in spec its an NC to whoever too. Worst case is a recall, stop manufactures or stop ships can happen also whilst investigations go on.
Thats the super short version of what can and should happen in larger companies.
Although I work in medical devices just now and we are quite tightly regulated.
#raaw
#madonna
Some programmer, somewhere, is really happy.
Obviously there's professionals riding them, but they're so clearly leagues above us mortals, and they built their name/skills riding standard bikes.
Not true in Bay area CA. Most of the dudes that owned dh kom's on analog are now on e-bikes and still destroying everyone else.
@JDFF: I don't see how your comment relates. We are talking about improving descending ability and not fitness... are you disagreeing with my statement that the only way to improve is to get more descending time in? If you agree with that, it's kind of hard to argue that the ebike will help you reach that goal more quickly.
logic.
I was in British Columbia two years ago and i was really amazed by the fact, that nobody was riding eBikes and that there weren't any shops selling them. Probably the North American Market lags behind the european market, just like we did with 29er mountainbikes
When is pinkbike going to start covering the GNCC and WORCS ebike races?
I don't get why you're so far behind regarding ebikes in North America. You'll catch up later. But in 5 or 10 years from now, most of us will ride one.
No point arguing push bikes with electric assist will destroy your trails. Saying so only shows ignorance regarding the subject.
I don't have one yet, but I'm looking to replace both my trail and enduro bikes with one. Tried few ebikes and had a big smile on my face after only the first try. As any of you doubters will
www.pinkbike.com/photo/19315105
Stay wet, moms!