First Ride: Shimano's New Steps EP8 eMTB System

Aug 31, 2020 at 8:58
by Ralf Hauser  



It wasn’t a question of if, but when Shimano was going to introduce a new flagship motor. The days of the old Steps E8000 were numbered. Long live the brand new STEPS EP8!

All new, all better. With 21 percent more torque than the E8000, now offering up to 85Nm, compared to the old system's 70Nm, with a maximum power output of 500W The EP8 (DU-EP800) isn’t just more powerful, it has become more compact and lighter at the same time.
Shimano EP8 Details

• 85nM torque
• 500W maximum power output
• Magnesium drive unit case
• Weight: 2.6 kg
• 36% reduction in drag compared to previous version
• New assist algorithm.

Thanks to a magnesium drive unit case and its enhanced shape the new motor has shaved 300 grams off the scale, coming to a total weight of 2.6kg. A ten percent smaller form package adds even more ground clearance over its predecessor. The motor mounts are still the same as before, so bike manufacturers can actually fit the new motor into existing frames without any modifications.

Another big improvement over the old motor is a 36 percent reduction in drag and greatly reduced driving noise. Heat management has been optimized by introducing heat dissipating materials, an increased surface area in the case and even a refined heat management algorithm.

Speaking of algorithms, Shimano has completely reworked their assist algorithm for all of their support modes, organically matching the rider’s efforts and delivering the right power at the right time. Instead of a single assist ratio for each riding mode the new algorithm constantly calculates the ideal assist ratio depending on the situation.

Shimano EP8

Shimano EP8
The motor mounts remain the same so older frames can hold the new motor.
Shimano EP8

Shimano EP8

Shimano EP8
New thumb remote with slightly larger buttons.
Shimano EP8
The new SC-EM800 display: similar from the outside, new internals.

There’s a new display, the SC-EM800, which looks very similar to the known SC-E8000 but features a more capable chipset, expanded compatibility with third party computers thanks to ANT, and the ability to select two different custom ride profiles. Also, with this display compatible new wires can transmit data faster due to increased bandwidth and make the system future-proof for new features.

A new handlebar-mounted assist switch (SW-EM800) with larger buttons and greater tactile feedback is now available, as is a new chain guide (CD-EM800).

A 160mm crank arm option has been added to the 165, 170 and 175mm range, keeping the Q-factor at a narrow 177mm.

Also updated is the E-Tube Project app that can communicate with Shimano’s electronic equipment (Di2 shift components also). In terms of customization, the options are expanded massively, allowing the riders to adjust each ride mode with ten different assist curves to control how quickly the power ramps up to match their input. Additionally, the maximum torque limit can be set between 25 to 85 Nm of torque.

Most Shimano displays can communicate wirelessly via Bluetooth with the app.

Shimano EP8
Shimano EP8


Shimano EP8

Ride Impressions

Due to a series of unfortunate events, I couldn’t ride the new motor anywhere near as much as could have been possible, but then again, the few extended rides that I did get in, I depleted the battery every time and collected some proper testing impressions.

Merida’s 2021 eONE-SIXTY 8000 with carbon front triangle, mixed 29/27.5” wheel setup and smart details - like Thermo Gate cooling vents at the steer tube area to help warm air from the battery to dissipate - acted as our test bike. With Merida and Shimano having worked closely together when developing the frames that were launched in 2020, their entire range has now been upgraded with the larger 630Wh internal battery (500Wh for XS size), enhanced Energy Guard battery cover with softer outside material to reduce noise and help sealing the battery compartment, further integrated cable routing, front light and of course the brand-new Shimano STEPS EP8 motor. Our model was equipped with Shimano’s SC-E7000 display, the two higher carbon models 9000 and 10K feature the new SC-EM800 display version.

Time to play: good riddance to error W013 - the new EP8 can finally be started up quickly without any hassle, even when pedaling.

It’s pretty obvious just how much more powerful the new EP8 is. Not only more powerful, but more well-rounded, with torque smoothly progressing, no matter what mode you’re running the bike in. Gone is the jerking motion that sometimes especially accompanied the Boost setting. Even when starting out in steep sections, the motor reacts extremely sensitive to pedal input and it’s rather easy to transfer the power to the ground and keep the wheels from spinning.

All of this at the sensation of how quiet the new EP8 is, almost taking it to a new level in the category of full-size motors. Even in Boost mode, under full load, the noise does not amass to much more than a low hum, hard to even recognize over the ambient noise of a ride.

Shimano EP8

Also, the base setup of the Trail mode has become much more fun to use. At least in theory, when checking the range between Trail and Eco mode, it almost doubles in distance thanks to their new algorithm. Naturally, the support from the motor is much less in Eco compared to Boost, or now even Trail, but I assume that there are still going to be a lot of people that will want to ride predominately in this mode to get some workout in. Although I have not ever spent much time in Eco with the E8000, other than when I was in trouble with my remaining range, the new support algorithm is also noticeably affecting the lowest support mode in a positive way.

Although it wasn’t bad before, pushing beyond the 25km/h threshold also feels more natural now with the reduction in drag, apart from the fact that having to keep a heavy e-bike at speed will always be a bit more challenging. As far as overall range goes, the new EP8 system seems to be benefiting from its enhanced efficiency and should be right there with its biggest competitors, although I’ll have to run my little test lap for some comparable numbers.

Better than before, but still noticeable, is the transition every time you start spinning the cranks from standstill and when stopping to pedal. For lack of a better description, it’s sort of a subtle double-clicking resistance that can slightly be felt through the pedals and, if you pay attention, even be heard. While it doesn’t really affect the ride quality, I’m going to need to spend some more time with the system to see if there are certain situations where that sensation becomes annoying.

Most importantly, once you are pedaling, transitions from the motor support is perfectly seamless and feels extremely natural. Kudos to the new algorithm.

Finally, Shimano’s Walk Mode is now usable. Easy to shift into and activated with the thumb remote, it pushes the bike along powerfully, no matter what gear you’re running. At the push of another button, you’re back to your regular riding mode.

Unfortunately, when trying to connect to our test bike with the E-Tube app there was an error, since the new motor wasn’t part of the official system yet, so I can’t say to what degree the modes can get affected.

Even with as little time as I spent on Shimano’s new EP8, it’s safe to say that it’s an improvement over the E8000 in every single way. I will spend a lot more time with the new system for a detailed review and run it head to head to some of its biggest competitors to figure out in what areas it does perform better and where it still has some catching up to do. Stay tuned.







219 Comments

  • 99 11
 We'd need some sort of standards for motor and battery mounts, cuz' those expensive bikes are turning into obsolete device 2 years later.
  • 79 1
 If there's any industry that's great with standards compared to mountain bikes, it's consumer electronics.
  • 13 7
 @Will-narayan : Whoa buddy, you're about to catch a defamation suit with talk like that.
  • 39 1
 Well, I must say, I didn't read the article before posting and it says "The motor mounts are still the same as before, so bike manufacturers can actually fit the new motor into existing frames without any modifications", so that's pretty cool.
That clearly could factor chosing a brand over another.
  • 29 1
 Agreed, and hats off to Shimano for keeping the same motor mount design as their previous generation. As a current e-bike owner I'm glad that I have the option to upgrade if I choose to do so.
  • 10 1
 @Will-narayan: Yes, that's really cool. The question is - will the new motor be available for retail and not OEM only... I could imagine to upgrade my Decoy Big Grin .
  • 7 1
 How's the longevity of these shimano motors compared to the bosch ones
  • 5 2
 @anchoricex: Not sure compared to Bosch, but I have several friends that have been pounding on the E7000's for a while now with zero issues.
  • 16 6
 @salespunk: man these eMTB's are starting to get really enticing. My fat ass would love turning local trails into pseudo shuttle parks, my condo is literally right down the road from a huge trail system but the hikes up are pretty shit. Usually get 2-3 runs in an I walk my fat ass home.
  • 8 4
 @anchoricex: I have over 25,000km on the shimano e-8000 motors on several different bikes. Usually sell them at 2500km but had several personal pnes over 4000km and all my sold bikes are still riding, not one issue with the motor yet. I put 1000km on a month here in Squamish/whistler
  • 26 0
 To paraphase xkcd:

Situation: There are 14 competing standards.
"14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases."
Soon: There are 15 competing standards.
  • 5 17
flag TDMAN (Aug 31, 2020 at 14:47) (Below Threshold)
 And you're switching bats+motors????
Problem is price in tge first place. I would never by a e-moped, when I can have a full enduro motorcycle for +2000€
  • 2 0
 @yoobee: Guten tag! I was thinking the exact same thing for my 2019 Decoy. I'm trying to reach out to Shimano to see if that's possible since the decoys have a custom battery.
  • 2 0
 @yoobee: Indeed. Maybe not for sell for everyone on web store but at least through official shimano retailer/mechanic. But would bike brands agree ?
In a way it's like changing the bottom bracket. It's just a huge bottom bracket.
I'm sure there would still be many people who would change bike every year or two though this could moderatly boost the value of bikes on second hand market, and help people with a restrained budget to get an up do date bike.
Also maybe motor/battery technology could soon reach some kind of plateau ? I mean the size. It'll probably keep shrinking, but only up to a point, which could then help make things more durable.
  • 1 1
 @TDMAN: Horses for courses
  • 4 2
 I like beer
  • 5 16
flag DroppingThreeTwoOne (Sep 1, 2020 at 9:26) (Below Threshold)
 electronic motor bikes suck!
  • 7 2
 Hijacking top comment chain to remind people; the previous generation E-motor from Shimano did not have a replaceable bottom bracket, and it appears this also does not. No thank you. Ebikes eat BBs.
  • 1 0
 @sherbet: Do the bosch ones have them? That seems like a huge oversight.
  • 4 0
 @anchoricex: Yep, they are replaceable on Bosch systems.
  • 2 0
 @anchoricex:

Hopefully this psuedo shuttle park use of local trails would be accompanied by increased participation in the mtb community and trail maintenance days. Appealing idea indeed!
  • 3 0
 @sherbet: You mean when the bearings are worn out you can't change them ? How do you do then ? You have to service it at the store ? Change of motor ?
  • 1 0
 @Canieto1: Well I don't see a problem here as the battery has to meet Shimano specifications already.
  • 1 0
 @Will-narayan: I think if they keep the mount points the same they also will not change the axis/BB height. Otherwise the manufactures would have to change the frame geometries.
  • 3 0
 @Will-narayan: Cannot be serviced. New motor day. Shimano won't touch the subject with a twenty foot pole.
  • 2 0
 Spot on..my Mrs just purchased a trek powerfly
3 months ago and it’s been at the dealership 1 month as it’s not working lol
she’s only done 50 miles on it which where not on the trails for the battery to die and needing a replacement..
Definitely to many things to go wrong with them in my opinion for it to be reliable..
  • 2 0
 @sherbet: But aren't the bearings sealed inside the motor "hull" ? And so much less prone to getting dirt than a regular BB ?
  • 2 1
 @Will-narayan: Ultimately thats irrelevant to it. Bottom brackets do wear.
  • 3 0
 @sherbet: Shimano quote the expected life span as 10 years and say that the bearings in the motor are covered under your warranty.... so, no big problem? Has anyone ever had an issue with these that's not covered under warranty?
  • 5 1
 Yep, there's more than a few videos on youtube of extremely worn out bbs and shimano stating it isnt a warranty. It's come up more than a few times on articles regarding shimano motors.

Also come on man. A decade on the same BB? You often get that much life out of one? Never have myself.
  • 41 3
 Don’t really care much about e-mountain bikes but it’s nice to see Shimano keeping the same motor mounts for frames. That alone deserves a “well done.” So, well done Shimano.
  • 4 11
flag mackzn (Sep 1, 2020 at 7:44) (Below Threshold)
 And yet you read the details of this e-bike article...
  • 66 38
 queue the h8erzzzz. Ebike is here to stay whether you like it or not. Personally, i'm excited for what the future hold for emtb. I'll be getting on one in the next ~5 years as they progress. If I can turn my normal mtb ride into twice the ground covered i am bout it bout it.
  • 26 7
 Yeah ebikes are here to stay. Until the next ebike is here to stay. Until the next ebike is here to stay.
  • 11 1
 I hear you...I think ebikes are pretty good now but I imagine they are going to be really good in a generation or two
  • 51 13
 I didn't think I needed one. I'm 28 and in pretty good shape having raced basically every mtb sport in the upper amateur/not quite pro division.

I finally pulled the trigger just because several friends had one and woulsbt stop talking about how fun it was.

I'm now 100% HOOKED! I have a 3 mile trial literally in my back yard but it's super smooth and flat. The Ebike allows me to go so fast the whole time that even the tiny little downhills and content turns become quite fun. It will never be a replacement for my DH bike but it's WAY more fun than my XC on that trail. On any other trail it makes things twice as fun because it allows for things like uphill jumps and hitting sections full speed that are normally slow and awkward.

Very much worth it!
  • 19 10
 @stumphumper92 Agreed! People think its cheating.. But really, if your getting in more runs, and covering more ground your still getting in your fitness.. U can just do more of it.. I'm all about that as well.
  • 7 0
 Thats why I have little interest in an Ebike... Yes I could do my local rides faster but Ebikes arent allowed on 80-90% of the trails.
  • 6 3
 @browner: just like reg bikes.
  • 2 2
 @HurricaneCycles: That's exactly the way it goes Big Grin
  • 12 6
 @HurricaneCycles: this sounds super fun, but shit like high speed uphill jumping from amateur riders with underdeveloped trail sense (which seems to represent the majority of e-bike owners I come across) is exactly what I fear from e-bikes.
  • 17 7
 @bohns1: Check your heart rate profile vs someone who isn't using one. I see someone I know on Strava all the time and compared to mine, nowhere near the same workout (107bpm average vs 140bpm)
  • 9 6
 @monkeybizz: is that person riding longer each ride? Is he ridong more often? I am and most people say they are. All that equals more exercise. The fact that we're able to ride at endurance pace everywhere by using the power selector makes it possible to ride longer and mors back to back to back days. Plus when you go into oxygen debt, even once, whrn you push past an interval you pay for the rest of the ride and arent able to ride as relaxed on the downhills. At endurance pace you recover at the top quickly for the downhill to have more fun and lessen the chance of crashing. Less crashing also means you'll be riding more
  • 12 11
 @sspiff: common fear but unfounded. true story, there are more kooks without skills on reg bikes than there are on emtb.
  • 11 6
 @sspiff: Sorry man, but you definitely got a big confirmation bias filter going. The number of kooks blasting down multi-use trails on enduro/DH rigs is orders of magnitude greater than any on E-bikes.
  • 3 4
 @monkeybizz: So, that N of 1 equals... certainty! Sigh...
  • 5 4
 @Chuckolicious: I never made this false equivalency... and fwiw I yell at the the bozos irresponsibly blasting multiuser trail to stay on directional trails, or at least come back when it's not Saturday afternoon.

I was responding to a comment talking about riding climbs and slow jank like a descent. It sounds like a total party, but that's where people go when they don't want to deal with people living out their Gwin fantasy.
  • 6 3
 @sspiff: OK, fair enough. But saying the majority of Ebikers you come across fall into this category is suspect at the very least. I've ridden E-bikes on my many trips to CA and OR, and the ones I've actually ridden with are life long seasoned riders who would kick both our asses on regular rigs, up or down. And since I'm her sensitive to the ridiculous uphill battle (ha) that Ebikes have to fight in this ridiculous country I'm more acutely aware of any other E riders I come across and hyper critical of what they're up to. Just haven't seen any evidence of what you speak.
  • 5 0
 @Chuckolicious: could be poor writing on my part... meant to only refer to the amateur/underdeveloped trail sense bit. In CO front range this seems to encompass most, but certainly not all, ebikers. On Strava my riding group is typically top 1% going down and 5% going up; none of us regularly ride e-bikes and faster folk even less so. I can think of one seasoned rider I know who is on his e-bike about half the time.
  • 5 2
 Word, even at 30 being in good shape, currently on a long legged trail bike as one bike quiver, full emtb or aid type like the sl evo are starting to get annoying. Doesnt matter what the 14y.o haters say they whine about every industry. Its hard to say no to 30% to 50% extra distance ridden per session, spending the same amount of energy on the ups, just heavier to work with in the down but same weight as older dh rigs used to be. Any non chair assisted day always ends up with more riding done. Only the buy-in price sucks and an extra battery is the price of any high end rear shock as extra on top of mods for the bike. Maybe in a couple years when prices go down, i gotta test ride one at a bike park tho riding flow and rough dh trails see if it can convince me.
  • 6 3
 @monkeybizz: I hear what you are saying but heart rate alone doesn't tell the full story. An Ebike, for several reasons, requires a different type of physiological output.

Honestly, if you goal is straight up legs and cardio, there are better options out there than any mtb. And if you want to only give 90% instead of 100 then that's cool too. But if you are looking for exaggerated speeds to test yourself while at your maximal EFFORT over time. An ebike is a great training tool. Especially if your local trail if super boring otherwise. Like mine.

Nothing beats trainer and a road bike for cardio work tho so that argument means nothing to me.
  • 7 1
 @monkeybizz: you're comparing your heart rate with someone else's? That's... Unusual. Compare your own with your own, they could be less fit and have a higher heart rate. As it is, I'm pretty sure me on my e bike (I'll admit I'm a bit overweight (3.5stone less than I was before the eeb though) and not the absolute fittest (or even above average fitness)) will have a higher heart rate up climbs than my mate who can pedal straight up a 4000ft mountain before lunch (he is literally super fit). He's half the reason I got an ebike, so I could actually go on rides with him and not just hold him back all day. Literally the only way I can get away from him is using boost mode. I think h just uses beast mode lol.
  • 6 0
 @rustyglaze5: "couple years when the prices go down"

Ah bless ya!
  • 1 0
 @HurricaneCycles: ebikes are limited to 25km/h...
Do you mean 25 kmh is fast?
  • 2 0
 @TDMAN: it's 20mph here in the states. That's 32.2KM/h. So still not truly fast but certainly fast enough to have fun on a flat trail.
  • 58 31
 A bicycle has always been non-electric/motor for me. That’s one reason I love bicycles for the simplicity. More satisfaction when iv completed 1800m of climbing and 5 downhills knowing my legs and heart have down all the work.
  • 27 22
 I don't even like shuttling or chairlifts anymore. Feels incomplete.
  • 26 7
 @alexsin: roadie talk
  • 23 14
 Gotta love the fact that you clicked on an article you knew you didn't like, just to come here and let us all know what a big deal you are.
  • 10 10
 @hasteTHEday: its about a 50/50 split. 50% of them just want to flex and 50% want to go the self righteous route. 100% em bear assing
  • 9 14
flag thetoro (Sep 1, 2020 at 2:23) (Below Threshold)
 Just to annoy you lazy guys @hasteTHEday:
  • 2 10
flag thetoro (Sep 1, 2020 at 2:24) (Below Threshold)
 No point shuttling with an e-bike @alexsin:
  • 1 0
 @thetoro: Ahh yes that's right, because I don't hate e-bikes I'm lazy.
  • 39 19
 "All new, all better. With 21 percent more torque than the E8000, now offering up to 85Nm, compared to the old system's 70Nm, with a maximum power output of 500W The EP8 (DU-EP800) isn’t just more powerful, it has become more compact and lighter at the same time."

And thus the E-bike arms race continues! This is, imo, the biggest issue with e-bikes. At a certain point, with every new model, these motors are going to be so powerful that these bikes will edge closer and closer to the motorcycle/dirt bike side of things. Which makes regulation all that more difficult in trail systems...
  • 3 3
 The Bafang BBSHD units are already there.
  • 11 1
 I thought legal limit was 250W???
  • 3 1
 @jeansebille: Nominal power. Max power boost can vary greatly. Think of a car cruising at 2,000 rpm vs redlining at max power at 7,800 rpm.

One of my concerns that I don't see addressed is how does it register a cadence over 120? Most eMTBs cut out at that point, just like above ~20 mph. Sometimes you just gotta spin in prep of a feature.
  • 48 2
 We don't need more power. We need the motors to be smaller and silent and use a universal mounting standard. And batteries that can really go the distance. Call me when it's done.
  • 22 7
 I used to use the same tactic as a child all the time. [Monday] "hey Mom, can I hang out with [whoever] on Friday- we won't stay out past 10:00 and we'll make sure his Mom is home"...[Friday]- "So we are already here but his Mom is not home and we can't find a ride back from the party till 1:00- can I just stay since I'm already here?"... I believe it's the ol' "Foot-In-the-Door" Compliance Technique. [2019] "Can we use the trails? We won't use throttles and our power and max speed will be super low" ...[Some time in the near future] "So we are already here but throttles will make it so much funner-er and holy crap I can ride so much farther-er if I can climb at 70 km/hr"
  • 7 1
 @alexsin: THIS. The only brand doing this now, or trying to is Specialized. When the rep came in to show us their Creo and Levo SL, that was where the future of e-MTB should go. Smaller, lighter batteries. But of course, that effects the total range and outright torque. Atleast if the Levo SL runs out, you're only lugging along on a ~38lb bike and not a ~50lb bike.
  • 11 10
 This is nowhere near remotely true. These motors are 200-500W. A YZ450f is 37,000W (~50hp). Night and day difference that won't be closed within the next 2-3 decades at least.
  • 28 10
 All new, all better. With 21 percent more torque maximum power output of 500W!

Who could've predicted that slippery slope eh?

Local trail here has already turned into a total shit show over the past couple of years. E-bike riders blasting up the downhill only trail.

Doesn't matter how many times you talk to them about erosion caused by tearing up the trail from the wrong direction, or the risk of collision with other trail users.

More power annually as the business model, really? How about less power, and more education as a model for sustainability of sales?
  • 7 1
 Agreed???????? I’ve long said manufactures need to focus on silencing the motors better, decrease the weight & compact the batteries and drive units...increasing range would be a plus but Please, NO power increases necessary...
  • 11 6
 @mobiller: verbatim what hikers say about every bicycle.
  • 7 3
 @ranke: Ah, hikers we gotta love em eh? Always stop and wave. Strange conversations sometimes ensue. Can't say I've ever heard the conversation where a hiker is worried about colliding with a pedal powered mountain biker crawling up a downhill trail at 1mph.
  • 11 5
 @smgishot13: I don't think the above comment was meant to be construed as a direct comparison to a moto. That being said, there is some truth in it, particularly from the perspective of the vehemently anti-mtb crowd. As other users in this very comment section have stated, as the "e-bike arms race" continues to evolve it will only be a matter of time before cruising up the local approach/hiking trail at 28 mph is the norm. One can only imagine the rage such behavior will inspire in the crusty anti-mtb crowd, and it will almost certainly make it more difficult for the mtb community to unify behind a mutually beneficial position in support of more/better access, etc.
  • 8 12
flag won-sean-animal-chin (Aug 31, 2020 at 14:24) (Below Threshold)
 @mtskier: 28mph up a trail that you cant even go 28mph down? Its the hyperbole that singles people like you out as a moran not worth listening to
  • 3 2
 @Ryan2949: Agree 100%. First wave of eBike buyers were mid-age or older men, more likely to be overweight. Next wave of eBike riders would be regular MTB riders as well as opening more of the market to women, teens, and children. For that market we need lighter motors and batteries. Levo SL is the only game in town and we need more competition here to bring prices down. Would love to get Levo SL for wife, but can't justify the price knowing she will at most ride it once a month.
  • 11 7
 @mtskier: Yeah...no. Riding up a trail with anything remotely approaching a dangerous speed would require an order of magnitude more power (10x) at a minimum. That's not happening anytime soon. It is definitely not "only a matter of time".
  • 3 6
 @alexsin: Smaller, check. Silent, not yet. Universal mounting? You high bro? And as for batteries, talk to Elon.
  • 10 8
 @mobiller: Err... check your physics man. Braking a descending typical rider causes orders of magnitude more wear on a trail than an ebike assisted climb.
  • 6 5
 @smgishot13: Yea, don't seem we got top tier physicists comment here.
  • 9 6
 @mobiller: no just no, just shut the f*ck up with erosion. Physically shut up.
  • 6 5
 @Chuckolicious: I've never seen an eMTB roost an uphill.
  • 17 5
 @Chuckolicious: We're the repair and trail maintenance crew, damage has been unprecedented. The problem became exponential worse locally when powered riders doing "impossible climbs" (DH trails) upped their wattage and bought Sur-Rons.

Trail was originally designed and has been continually armored and maintained for strength in one direction, downhill. Main issue is rocks being pulled out when pressure is applied from the wrong side. We're talking dozens of large rocks that have been anchored for decades.
Wet season is coming and we can't keep up with the damage.

Designated uphill climb is a separate trail with a gentler slope and is sustainable.

And yeah, erosion is a problem MTB'ers have collectively always worked to control and mitigate. It's up there in importance to us with trail access.

Sightlines, risk of collision, going against established traffic patterns, other issues aside.
  • 8 6
 @50percentsure: I guess I'll take your word for it. But did you see the results from the Tahoe area study on Ebike impact to the trails? And who's talking about Sur Rons??? We're talking Class 1 Ebikes. Let's not wildly conflate stuff, ok?
  • 3 5
 @Geochemistry: Exactly. But I bet a bunch of people have, in their minds.
  • 8 4
 @50percentsure: a sur ron is not a class 1 emtb. No one here is arguing for sur rons to be allowed on mtb trails.
As for collolisions. There is atleast as many collisions involving regular mtb's and that is very few. The reason being people have an aversion to running into things, particularly other people. Thays why emtb is allowed on 2 way trails everyehere emtb knowledge is evolved. As an example we have a big network of 2 way enduro moto trails that are singletrack and motos have the ability to go faster where the trail allows. Still there is not a rash of collisions. Im sure on occasion there may be incidents but ive heard of none . People just arent running into people or atleast any more than normal if you take the increased covid traffic out of the equation
  • 5 2
 @mobiller: build a few 4 or 5 foot drops into a trail to stop ebikes or scramblers climbing them.
  • 7 3
 @50percentsure: You are making very dishonest arguments. Sur-Ron's are dirt bikes, not e-MTBs. 4x difference in bike weight and ~10x or more difference in power. You can't say that e-bikes are the same risk as those.

Risk of collisions is a non-argument as well. Enduro MX trails can be effectively indistinguishable from MTB trails and are generally bi-directional. Head-on collisions are not some epidemic in enduro-MX riding...So....ya....I've got thousands of miles riding a dirt bike on busy 2-way trails. I had a minor head on (with a dumbass quad) ONCE. And that's while riding at much higher speeds than any e-MTB is going to be going uphill.
  • 3 0
 @Gerlewis: Brilliant. Actually after looking at a bit this is exactly what we decided to do. Mind boggling that asking an adult "please don't climb the descending trail" isn't enough and we have to actually build physical barriers to keep them out.
  • 3 2
 @smgishot13: Negative, new riders on e-bikes started the climbing the downhill trail trend.
Sur-Rons, with pedals and cranks showed up about a year later and exasperated the already existing problem. Many of the same people, but now on upgraded more powerful electric bikes climbing the same route.
Traditionally we've had a climbing trail, and descending trail. Not an uncommon arrangement as far as I've ever seen.
  • 4 2
 @Choan: Opened a new account just for that one comment eh. Talk about being a chicken sh!t.
  • 4 3
 @50percentsure: Sounds like you guys need to hang out at the trailheads, hide in the bushes with some lead pipes, and give some beat downs to these dumbfvcks.
  • 5 3
 @50percentsure: Dude, the pedal kits for Sur Ron's are just to ride legally on the street. You can't actually pedal the things!!! Jeeze, read a book, or web site, why don't ya! Might I suggest Luna Cycles. Now, just knock off the comparison, in any way, shape, or form, to Class 1 E-Bikes. Thanks a hoot!
  • 3 3
 @smgishot13: Honestly, the struggle not to flip out on them is real lol.

But for the most part I believe they may be genuinely clueless. "It's fun" is as deep as it goes.
  • 4 3
 @50percentsure: Sounds like you have more self control than I do. You Canadians are too nice! Razz
  • 3 3
 @50percentsure: Just wondering, you educate yourself on how Sur Rons work yet?
  • 17 5
 For all the thumbs down, holier than thou hypocrites...

I had a serious injury many years back but, luckily, can still ride a bike. However, I struggle A LOT with with endurance and I fall a lot going uphills and through anything remotely technical because of the weakness in my legs. Now with an eBike I can ride without falling and in more varied terrain with my kid and with my friends. It’s been a life changing game changer of colossal proportions. Those who say eBikes are “cheating” probably won’t go back to a steel, full hard tail 26 inch bike and give up all the modern, plush technology that helps them shred. Including shuttling and chairlifts. Right?
  • 7 5
 I generally hate ebikes. But I don't think you'll find many people against someone injured riding them responsibly. A lot of ebikers aren't injured, they just want to party more, and some of them don't think of the effects that their new uphill party section will have on trails. My 26" hardtail is very close to retirement, there's a good chance I'll go 29" full sus.
  • 11 1
 After 15 months on my Decoy I friggin love the thing. Ride about 80% in ECO and the rest in Trail, never in Boost. My only complaint about the E8000 is the noise and it sounds like this new motor is checking all the boxes on any other quibbles.

The fact that its backward compatible mechanically is great.
  • 4 1
 I just read the review on e-mountainbike and you won't be overly happy with it:

ebike-mtb.com/en/shimano-ep8-old-vs-new
  • 7 2
 You should really try to ride technical uphill trails using Boost tup
  • 8 0
 There are other reviews of this motor which mentions the internal gear clunking noise is even louder in the EP8. Why Sally...Why!!! That is my biggest gripe of the E8000. I have a Meta Power SX and its an incredible bike but the clunking is annoying and had high hopes this would be addressed on the new version. All these manufactures doing there best to make bike quite but then you have a motor which sounds like there is a lose bolt ratting around in it on the downs. Seriously Shimano, in all the upgrades why would you not sort this
  • 13 2
 been waiting for this!
  • 5 0
 This article features the word algorithm 8 times. So it seems that a pretty big part of the improvement is actually software related. Why can't Shimano just do the same thing that Bosch did and just provide a software update that fixes some of the most annoying bugs like the W013 or the more natural feel. Bosch even managed to upgrade the torque settings. If you have electronics on your bike, why not really use the advantages of that, but only the downsides.
  • 2 0
 Because Bosch launched a new motor last year and the E8000 was launched 2016. A new motor was overdue. But yes, the improvements on the Shimano look quite incremental rather than really new.
  • 5 0
 Of course they can't update design decisions made 4 years ago. Friction will still be bad for example and the drive noise will also not be fixable in software. But the algorithm how the motor behaves when going over 25km/h, the annoying W013 and similar things should be solvable and be solved.

If you release unfinished products, at least deliver updates that fix that. Same as in the gaming industry or as Tesla is doing for its cars. The possibility to improve functionality years later is the biggest advantage of doing things in software.
  • 4 0
 @navarin: you're right, but the bike industry struggles really with adopting such strategies that are the norm in the software or smartphone industry.
  • 7 0
 I gotta say. Im really excited about the weight savings of not needing a bashguard.
  • 6 2
 >The motor mounts are still the same as before, so bike manufacturers can actually fit the new motor into existing frames without any modifications.

What about end customers? In 5 years time when someone has worn out or broken an E8000, could you drop in a modern replacement assuming this trend continues?
  • 7 0
 Makes you think so, judging by what you quoted.
  • 3 2
 I imagine they will change the motor mounting standards as much as they increase wheel spacing standards.
  • 8 2
 I can’t believe people were complaining about under the BB cables but they’re okay with a tiny electrical wire going around the side of the main pivot.
  • 35 31
 Gonna build my own pedal assist bike, with a 125cc two stroke throttled by a clutch that tightens a cable as the pedals turn. It's the future, and if you don't like it you obviously haven't tried one. Brap!
  • 16 4
 If you can integrate some kind of system which eradicates the pedalling Part of it then you sir have got your first customer!
  • 8 2
 I'd like to sign up for your newsletter; I think you may be onto something
  • 13 10
 Can you make sure it weighs at least 50lbs so I can brag about how much of a work out it is to ride one?
  • 4 4
 I'd use some torque sensors and an actuator. That would make it E.
  • 7 1
 Can’t wait for the new SC Heckler with this quieter unit and hopefully 160mm in the rear????
  • 10 7
 I don't get it. Maybe I need to try it. But I'm still riding a 26er HT so I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I like the challenge and the workout I get from riding and don't care if I can't take that impossible uphill super easy. I'll keep at it until I can and that's when I get the smile on my face. If I don't care about all that and just want to rip and shred, then I'd way rather jump on my dirt bike.
  • 6 1
 I know its surprising but people have different interests when it comes to cycling. For some people, 40 mile rides with plenty of gnarly downhills that would be jarring on a HT are preferred. For rides like that, Ebikes are great.

Perfect example: I did a 35 mile ride yesterday on my 26 inch slayer... 165/160mm... Hit a few chunky DH lines.. Averaged around 11mph and was at roughly 75%... Quite tired by the end of ride. A lot of ebikes nowadays could do that same exact ride and I wouldn't even be tired at the end
  • 5 4
 @shredjekyll: I'm not surprised there are different interests. I have a a MTB and CX bike. My wife likes group rides with roadies. I also enjoy my motorcycle and dirt bike. What I don't get is what does an eMTB do differently or better that makes it so appealing. I get the guys who for whatever reason are injured and can't ride a bike otherwise. For the rest of us I just think there are better options. For a lot I feel that they just want all the fun of MTB without putting in the work. You give a 40 mile ride with plenty of gnarly DH as an example. Isn't that more easily achieved and more fun with a bike with a real motor? You can go even longer and do gnarlier stuff and be exhausted by the end of it. Or even a MTB with lift serviced terrain? I really think I need to do it myself to see.
  • 6 3
 @llivingstone: not owning an emtb, but for me going far with less time sounds very appealing. After work, I often need to decide whether I will have enough time to for an evening run. How far I can get? Is it still worth it?

With an emtb, I'd consider myself being far more out biking.

Isn't that what it is all about?
  • 4 1
 Riding a 26" hardtail (unassisted) too but I disagree. For where I ride, my bike is perfect. Leaves enough challenges for it to be fun, can be pumped through sections etc. Height difference is relatively small so I can be explosive on the climbs. I can enjoy longer climbs too but there must be some fun in it. Some technical challenges, some explosive stuff. But yeah, I'm super happy with my simple hardtail, having a blast every single time.

From what I understand from people living in the Alps, climbs are either boring fire roads or tech and fun but too steep for anyone to pedal up unassisted. I guess that's where it could be fun. To either pick up the challenge on these super steep tech climbs or just have a mellow chat with your mates on the fireroad climb (or even pull unassisted friends along). I can see that make more sense than shuttling a truck or taking a cable car. Of course people have different views on this, that's what different options are for.

This discussion has been going in circles for years now and for years I haven't seen new arguments brought forward. I won't respond here any further. If you want to keep the discussion going, ideally I'd recommend you dig up a dead horse from an earlier thread and start beating that one. That should keep it all nice and central and maybe take it somewhere, someday.
  • 5 1
 Can you replace the BB on this one? Couldn't on last one from what I've noticed.
  • 4 1
 No info on enhanced durability apart from it disipates heat better. The Bb and tourque sensor should be repairable/replaceable by the user
  • 3 0
 I've seen a few horror stories regarding Shimano saying up to 5mm of wiggle at the end of the crank being within tolerance, and the fix is a brand new motor, no replacement BB. I asked my local Shimano rep if they could get me a part number for a BB and came up with nothing. If this also has a non-replaceable BB, it's a complete write off and not worth the money IMO. Massive oversight if correct. It would be VERY nice to see Shimano weigh in on this and give confirmation one way or another, but seeing how quiet they are on the issue also speaks volumes.
  • 6 1
 @sherbet: theyre throwaways. The bearing is behind the motherboard so you cant get at it without wrecking the motherboard. The e7000 and e8000 has been investigated for repair by independent motor rebuilders and its a no go. The same rebuilders repair bosch , brose and i think yamaha. Bosch seem to have way less failures to begin with, 2 year warrantee ,and if it needs warrantee, the warrantee replacement will have a further 2 year warrantee. After the warrantee period the bearings, axle, sleeve and seals can be replaced
  • 2 0
 @won-sean-animal-chin: how can this repairability issue, be negleted by tge press?
Sure I can understand some won't have a problem, but using my bike all year, replacing BBs almost every 2 years...and I think I'm not alone on tgis one!

New Bb is around 20ish euros (Shimano), a new motor is what? 600/700€??

This isn't a problem... this is The Problem, and I'm all Shimano fanboy!
  • 2 0
 @TDMAN: exactly. Im also a shimano fanboy. Ive been on shimano since the 80's when they took market share from suntour with sis shifting. Non replaceable bb is a major oversight. It has to be repackable or replaceable. Like you say their current mtb bb is inexpensive and lasts a couple of years. Also you can walk into any shop and get a shimano bb anytime. To get a motor replacement you'll have to pay $60 for a shop diagnosis then pay for shipping to shimano and back and wait for shimano to confirm the diagnosis and wait for it to be shipped back. You're looking at $150 and a minimum of 2 weeks wait if its covered by warrantee and shipping time is quick and your lbs can schedule everything quick and shimano actually has warrantee stock. Im currently at 2 1/2 months waiting with nothing confirmed or any shipping procedure in place. Recently ive had some positive correspondense on it so hoping its resolved soon. Because its a known issue, do i really want to go through that process every 4 months ? Mine is torque sensor at 1700km and my bearings dont have play but i hear lots stories of bearings dying at that point
  • 2 0
 "The motor mounts remain the same so older frames can hold the new motor."

Bro...this is what everyone had been waiting for. slap the new powerhouse on the old frame and get rid of the shitty old shimano motor.
  • 1 0
 You are Not going to get new motor on its own, but would be nice if you could?
  • 2 1
 What are display compatible new wires that can transmit data faster due to increased bandwidth?

I would love to see a good controller motor drive teardown, or just have one here to do a teardown myself Smile

Would be fun comparing it to what we put into some extreme environments where I used to work.
  • 2 0
 Had a look in side older Shimano e6000 motor, so many electrical components, so new ones will have even more
Do not think all e-components are at all needed, but not likely to be able just remove some from printed boards
But would prefer to have e-bike with a lot less to go wrong?
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: The electronic component will have been tested, shock, vibration, drop, humidity, temperature cycling etc. as well as the standard component level reliability tests from the manufacturer, HALT, HAST, HASL, Autoclave etc. Most people dont realise what testing is done to qualify electronics components, then to qualify those components as part of a design.

There will be lots of parts on the board, all of them probably needed for certain jobs, some might be redundant or left over components from the initial design, gives the engineer something to cost improve (CIP) in the future...

Would be interesting to see what is on the PCBA having worked on brushless motor drive design for a number of years, mostly for oil and gas and defence.
  • 1 0
 @betsie: Well have a spare e 6001 motor if you know anyone that could remove all electrics & just have an on/off switch?
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: The PCBA will have been made to be removed, if it failed final test station in manufacture then I am guessing they repair (often up to 3 repairs during the whole manufacturing process) and replace if required.

Its just a case of figuring out how it is fastened down, unless they have a final anti tamper stage in manufacturing, which means its harder for them to get product back and fault find, but they might have test points and a jig for that, depending on how far they have taken their design.
I imagine they are making 10's of thousands of units and not hundreds of thousands or millions. But will probably still have full automatic test equipment (ATE), but manual rework.
  • 1 0
 @betsie: Well would say that not meant, to be taken apart, would say that meant for whole unit to be replace not just PBA!
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: Probably not designed for a normal punter to take apart.

My guess from how some companies work....

I would not be surprised if there is a customer care/complaints team somewhere that you phone when things go wrong, or the bike shop phones (sometimes these use smart scripts to bucket issues before any return), the calls are logged, the returned item might go to a product analysis lab somewhere. They might have standard work instructions to follow which buckets the issue as a known issue (Not a fan of these as new issues tend to get put in one of these buckets), and if PA cant see what the issue is then the issue might get escalated to R&D. Issue reporting tends to be scaled based on when a product was launched, new launches get 100% coverage, mature products might be 10% or less. Only a small percentage of product that has a return request put in actually comes back, so the sample size for investigations can be low.
If too many similar issues come in the complaints team report this, its investigated and at worst you get a CAPA (corrective and preventative action), if its something not in spec its an NC to whoever too. Worst case is a recall, stop manufactures or stop ships can happen also whilst investigations go on.
Thats the super short version of what can and should happen in larger companies.
Although I work in medical devices just now and we are quite tightly regulated.
  • 7 7
 I ride MTB for fun and fitness... 50/50... I rodie for fun and fitness 30/70... I have two single speed 29ers that makes me feel like I get a better MTB work out because there's a good bit more out of the saddle pedaling... I dont ride with the ol' gang like i used to but, I can say, the guys I know who bought Ebikes have put on noticeable weight.... NOT saying Ebikes make you lazy. I dont know why my buds put on weight. maybe just something else they're doing in their life. For me.. I would just rather buy a motocross bike with some real horse power if I'm buying something with made man power
  • 3 3
 The new motor won't be available to buy, so you won't be able to upgrade and even if you could it would be priced so high to make it not worth doing so. If you buy into the ebike world the best strategy is like a modern car, buy nearly new, the ride for two years then sell and repeat, that should see the least amount of depreciation. Very green lol
  • 6 4
 I have to say my favorite thing about the e-bike motors is what they do for the design aesthetic of the mountain bike
  • 11 9
 Shimano, how bout you send a ton of parts to market instead of making e-bike motors. Everything is sold out.
  • 2 3
 @HurricaneCycles: the same with their e8000 motors. Waiting for warrantee for 2 months now and they still won't even return a call
  • 16 17
 I have a trail etiquette proposal as ebikes continue to get more powerful. All ebikes must be painted a bright fluorescent color to be easily identified and they are required to yield to all other trail users, including mnt bikes. Seems silly when a mnt biker has to stop on a downhill to yield for the uphill bike only to realize it's someone on an ebike causally pedalling up the climb with a motor as if they were riding on a sidewalk infront of their house.
  • 10 26
flag mcozzy (Aug 31, 2020 at 11:02) (Below Threshold)
 Just get your damn snail bike off the trail and out our way. It's possible to walk up faster than you lot ride up.
  • 1 0
 But I want a fluorescent painted pedal bike Frown
  • 9 8
 Didn't read the article, looked at the pictures, scoured the comments. Came here to say that's a cool motorcycle, love me some orange and black moto
  • 3 1
 70 year old pulls an ebike out of his truck - people smile and "thumbs up" 30 year old does the same - people look away.
  • 6 4
 my wife needs one of these
  • 4 4
 My grandma too
  • 5 2
 ebike central today!
  • 2 0
 now we just have to wait for ElectroMadonna
#raaw
#madonna
  • 9 9
 I still prefer acoustic over electric but for how long...? I guess till I can't climb for shit anymore. #oldbones
  • 8 4
 Second surgery was my tipping point, third surgery definitely pushed me to favor eMTB.
  • 13 1
 @Gibbersticks you shouldn't be climbing hills on your guitar. I'd highly recommend a bike, much more efficient.
  • 4 4
 Ahhh let the ebike hate comments and trolling begin. Better make some popcorn.
  • 5 4
 Love him or hate him, the comments section is dull without Waki
  • 3 2
 Shimano new e-fishing reel
  • 2 3
 comes with fully stocked fish tank!
  • 3 4
 Sometimes I read the motorbike comments and literally think that motorbike manufacturers are creating accounts and trying to sway public opinion.
  • 2 2
 For those who don't have the skills to ride DH tracks but still don't like pedalling up hills ????
  • 1 1
 Everyone is pretty concerned with weight and ethics and nm's... is there any official comment on improved BRAAP factor yet??
  • 1 0
 "Kudos to the new algorithm"

Some programmer, somewhere, is really happy.
  • 2 3
 Nevermind all that motor nonsense, when's the gearbox going to make an appearance?
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