The Story Behind the Start Order at the UCI World Cup DH in Losinj

 That's kinda what Megavalanche is, right?

 @PHeller: Mega track is too big. We need real casualties!

 @chyu: then Make Mega E-valanche for E-bikers. We will place Pinkbike commenters in a line at the bottom of the glacier, tie them to rocks, and give them pneumatic rifles. They will have to shoot as many E-bikers as they can or get ridden over. Fair play?

 @WAKIdesigns: Or red bull fox hunt style, 100 angry PB commenters with weapons chasing one e-bike down the hill.

 @robaussie99: in my option there would be losses on both sides, more casualties, more drama. Blood on the snow mmmm...

 @WAKIdesigns: That's a good point. Assuming of course in my scenario the e-biker fights back and is a highly trained special forces soldier and kills all 100, like in a movie I saw one time. Minus the e-bikes.

 @rocky-mtn-gman: best reply ever

 @PHeller: or is that's the red bull fox hunt

 @WAKIdesigns: and have them e bikes going from bottom to top, while the real bikes go standard top down format. Add chariot wheel spikes and keep the guns idea mounted, but on the handlebars like ww1 airplanes...oh and you can either have a motor on your bike or a gun...

 And today, sir, you win the internet.

 @takeiteasyridehard: I like you. Genius! But since regular bikers have the advantage of more kinetic energy (since they are tumbling down the hill), can E-bikers drag Thule Charriots and in them Willy Wonka dwarves armed with bows and arrows? Some may carry sound system playing music by Wagner

Aim for the leader!!! And you see Sam Hill charging at Sam Pilgrim. Wyn Masters on Eddie Masters throat, brother against brother, absolute drama. Danny Hart throws ring of power into the volcano, Steve Jones slams Brook McDonald down from his bike, gets on top of him and Bulldog says: this... is... for... Matilda

 @WAKIdesigns: that brought tears to my eyes

 @WAKIdesigns: I take it back, WAKI wins the internet today! LMFAO If anybody has any animation skills...

 Mighty American of you...

 @rollchal: Ya, 3 in the top 5. And the win. That's American! Where was ur little golden boy, Finn? Shut up, Canada. Adults are talking.

 @BaldBilly: Chill, Murcia.

 @robaussie99: sorry, Canada. I let one idiot piss me off and shit on you all. But in true "murican" fashion, I apologize for being an a*shole. But first, I had to be an a*shole in order to apologize for it. So America, f*ck yeah!!????????

 @robaussie99: meant to be a joke.

 Its simple man, carry the 10 over, drop next 10 x 3.14 x A2 + B2 = C2 = Bulldog

 www.youtube.com/watch?v=cze_2g0MclE

Cathro put it best

 Something for the dipshits in charge to ponder. Fastest qualifier goes down last. Second fastest goes down second to last, and so on, etc. How racing supposed to be. Pissing everyone off will not help you sell more of your stupid energy drink.

 @SlodownU: Yeah, but it's not just Red Bull. This is something the elite teams (the riders themselves) requested last year. I think there's something to be said for giving the teams a voice, and UCI taking their voice into consideration.

 @TheR: to lock out competition. This doesn't sound healthy for competition.

 @SlodownU: this is as much a UCI decision as a redbull one. Let’s be sure and pass the blame evenly

 Not that I care anything for Nascar but if they had protected drivers instead of a pole position it would suck. I mean what is the motivation to do well in qualies if your someone. I understand that they could be protected if they did well all year, but I think it detacts some excitement from the race. And why the hell do the best riders in the world need protection. Lame

 Why not keep the protected riders in the "protection list" but using qualification result as a start order sequence.

 @TheR: The teams asked for the top 5W/10M from last season to remain protected throughout the current season, but RBMH requested that the start order be changed to allow the current #1 rider start last. Sounds like the teams still want the protected riders to start based on quali times rather than the number plate, but that's not how the rule ended up being written.

RBMH has been great for the world cup, coverage has never been better. My only gripe is that so much of their focus is on creating celebrities out of guys like Gwin and Bruni, it'd be nice to see more focus on the race and the track.

@SlodownU: Redbull media makes way more money than the beverage company. They want more people watching their programming and I guess they figure having the superstars start last will be more exciting for the average person. If they end up selling some sugar water because of it, that's just gravy.

 @TheR: Keeping protected riders from last season is a good idea, but they don't need to mess with the start order for that to work.

 @SlodownU: "That stupid energy drink" is the reason you can watch the races live. Don't bite the hand that feeds you

 @honda50r: agreed man. If it wasn't for RedBull the drink we wouldn't have a lot of the current sporting or community events that we do have. Just look at how much Redbull does for small community events like the soapbox race, and the flutag(or however it's spelled) Not to mention the Redbull music academy and other grassroots projects they have to help other talented artists.

I'm tired of going into a bar and all I see is hockey or baseball on the TV's. Bars don't need tv's but I'd much rather a Redbull event on it than hockey.

sometimes you gotta mix with the formula just to see if something different works.

In the end... watching the event is Free and well covered.

 @pushingbroom: Yes, and in the end it's in their interest to have the top athletes in the prime spot. If it's in their interest, we also benefit, because if there is no Red Bull, there is no broadcast.

 @LoganKM1982: and of course the protected riding will be slower in qualifing now. They have nothing to gain from pushing it.

These are lame rules every rider should have to earn it every event.

 @chyu: So you would have been cool with Loris going first (since he got a flat) and having 52+ riders come down before his time was beat?

 @racecase: legend!

 @honda50r: Lets be clear, if Red Bull goes away, pretty sure someone else will step right in.

 Couldn't agree more. Why would you change something so simple. Literally everything else is confusing. The only other sense making way I could think of is that top 10 qualifiers may chose the racing order with the fastest qualifier choosing first straight after qualis are done. In this way they could gamble in case weather turns bad or track gets blown up more.

 Now that is an interesting idea. @WAKIdesigns:

 @dhx42:
this is a good point.

 @h-beck83: fastest quali time gets 50 championship points. taking 1st in qualies and finals increases the points gap over 2nd place substantially.

 @reverend27: except valuable WC points.... I think riders still want those to then make sure they stay protected for next season too, the exciting points race now stretches to 10th at the end of the season, to stay protected

 @reverend27: but points are still up for grab in qualifying so yes, they will still push it.

 @reverend27: going down last doesnt make you faster?

 @honda50r: We had a feed from forecaster before Red Bull, which was less flashy but showed the whole event and didn't the rules.

 @dhx42: Yep. That's how qualifying works.

 @dhx42: Actually under the old rules Loris as a protected rider would have gone 21st, which was quite a sensible protected rider rule. Still stops tactical qualifying and keeps the top riders at the end.

It seems to me this has mostly been caused by Red Bull only showing the top 20 rather than 30 riders.

Also I don't know why my previous post triple posted.

 @TheR: I'm sure the teams do want it. It protects them and makes it harder for others to break into the top 10

 @TightAF: and the top teams

 @arden0: they focus on the riders they sponsor at the expense of everyone else

 @reverend27: points! They get points!

 It makes qualifying kind of pointless. Not literally pointless, because points can be won, but it cannot accurately be called qualifying now since twenty riders are pre qualified. Perhaps they could move to a superbikes style two rave weekend. Run one on Saturday, and run two on Sunday, with equal points for both. They could even sell it as a feature. Fourteen race world cup season!

 @JoeRSB: This!

 @chyu: What the hell... that just makes way too much sense.

 @h-beck83: the motivation is to get as much points a possible for the WC overall IMO.

 @JoshParsons87: Right on. I didn't know you recieved points this way. Thanks.

 @jaame: I am not sure I agree here unless I am reading the rule incorrectly. This change is funky at the start of the season which is why things look bad.

As I read the rule, the top 10 in the current standings and top 10 from last year are protected riders. Won't we start to have a lot of overlap? I bet after Ft. Bill there may only be a few riders in the current top 10 who weren't the year before which would mean there would be maybe 10-13 protected riders. Wouldn't this put more pressure on qualis because the points will be harder to come by to be top ten in the current year?

That being said, I do think the protected group should be guaranteed a last 20 start (they are typically the fastest down and most relevant to the series chase). But other than that the start times should be based on Quali time.

 upped, I totally agree.
also don't quite understand why the need for protection? and from what exactly?

 What's the point of qualis at all if it isn't for the start order on race day? Why not just tack on 50 points to the race?

 @Patrick9-32: "What's the point of qualis at all if it isn't for the start order on race day"

The point of qualis is to qualify. You do realize that not every rider qualifies to race in the final right?

 @sino428: But if they don't matter for the top 20 riders why not just run everyone with enough points (like they do with qualis) in the morning on race day in the order that they run qualis?

 @Patrick9-32: It does matter. It says the protected riders are still going to start in the order they qualified.

 @sino428: Not if redbull gets their way, they wanted it in World cup ranking order.

 @Patrick9-32: So you are worrying about something that hasn't, and likely won't even happen?

 @noisette: I think the point of protected riders is to keep top athletes in the race that suffer a mechanical in qualifying. Like lets say Bruni blows up a wheel in qualies then the final comes along he drops first and no one can touch his time until the last 15 riders. Kinda takes the excitement out of the race.

 @cooki3s: This actually makes sense to me. i wouldn't want to watch that. There might not be a lot of change in the hot seat which I enjoy seeing. The only time I like when the hot seat doesn't change when its some unknown or a surprise. Mullaly in the world champs a few years ago with no chain was pretty awesome. Lost his chain, took the hot seat, and no one expected it to stand for as long as it did.

 @cooki3s: the point of protected riders, and the reason the teams and RBMH requested these rules, is so that top riders can be guaranteed consistent TV coverage and insulate themselves from the volatility inherent in the sport... riders and teams thus have increased chance to deliver value to sponsors and better chance to further develop sponsor revenue...RBMH can more consistently deliver to fans the chance to see top riders racing and build a fan base for the World Cup based on fans watching celebrity athletes... the value of established riders and teams just went up, and the chance for new riders and teams to develop value just got complicated...

 @eriksaun: Nice bit of analysis. Because the only way to make it possible to find lots of sponsorship dollars necessary for this whole thing to exist is for it to be a marketable media package.

 @eriksaun: Great words. Top riders just increased the share price. Newcomers to the sport get bumped. Not ideal, is it the old guard protecting themselves, thinking of themselves, you tell me..

 Top 10 Men and Top 5 Woman all have mechanicals in qualifying. They all get to race on race day, in a preferred order to suit themselves. I'm sorry, but that's not racing, that's match fixing. Anyone has the opportunity to win on race day, oh wait, no they don't. Pretty much saying that if any of the riders that have won one race in their career, they shouldn't have because they're not a marketable person.

 @Waldon83: But racing last is not necessarily a huge advantage in DH MTB. Tracks hardly ever get better as the day progresses, just more bombed out. So the advantage you get from knowing whether you can play it safe (because your closest competitors have had lousy runs, or because you saw on the screen or heard from a bystander where they ran into trouble). And beyond normal deterioration of the track, once in a while you have a change in weather that turns what was a fast track for the first starter into a complete nightmare for the last few starters (see last season's opener for one of those...).

But while match fixing it is not, it is a bit obnoxious. Because by putting the not-yet established fastest qualifier (like MacDonald in this case) early, they don't get hyped the way the established guys are. All in the interest of creating the overall media package that overall creates the most viewer interest (and thus gives the sponsors the most bang for the buck). Perhaps that's cool with the other riders (rising tide lifts all boats, what have you), but it sure makes it harder for a fast newcomer to establish themselves, so yes, it favors the incumbents a bit. And yes, that leaves a bad aftertaste, I'm totally with you on that. But calling it match fixing is a bit over the top, I think.

 @g-42: I'm totally with you, it was tongue in cheek.

 @g-42: but the counter argument is that a rider has to work his way up the ranks. I have no problem with protected riders having and advantage since they earned that protected status through results. It comes down to rewarding those riders that have consistently produced results or rewarding a rider for having one good run on qualifying day. I have no problem if they want to shift the focus more to rewarding longer term success.

 This is the only sensible option. Other than the chance of someone sitting in the hotseat for three hours and making the rest of the riders look like a bit of a joke.

Their argument is that the riders people want to see wouldn't appear in the livestream. Why not run the live stream (possibly without commentary for the first hour) throughout finals?

 Yup. This would be so easy.

 This is the right answer. I get why they want protected riders in general and have no problem with the 10/10 5/5 split of season-long and current rank. Just order them based on qualifying times and insert any non-protected riders who qualified faster in the appropriate spot.

UCI has the data so they can do the math, but I bet you end up with ~30 riders (20 protected, 10 non-protected) in the top 30. Show those runs and cut down on some of the pre-show/interview type stuff to fit the mens broadcast into two hours.

 roba -> agreed, but that only gets you halfway there.

Then you release the riders in packs of 3 every 30 seconds and now we're ready for some interesting racing!

 I totally agree!!!
You´re doing good in qualifying you´re last man down the hill. You fu*k up in quali, you race first.
Racing as it ever was...

 Amen!

 As long as the UCI stays away, things will be good. And action sports will do just fine without Red Bull.

 As much as I hate the UCI, this is all the fault of Red Bull and some of the teams.

 @rsbromley: looks like it. That said, UCI should have put a foot down. They didn't. I'm not sure if Mercedes demanded any changes

 So the UCI basically did what the representatives from the teams requested that they do, and you are still killing them for it?

 @SlodownU: Will it really do just fine without Redbull? Action sports are sponsor driven and Redbull has been probably the biggest sponsor of action sports the last decade. Careful what you wish for.

 @sino428: My guess is those 'teams' are one or two major players (Trek, Spec.) who are trying to sway the video feeds in their favor. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Mondraker, Propain, Transition, etc, are the ones asking /requesting this change

 Did you not watch the race ? They had .. FOR THE FIRST TIME .. the entire course covered with cameras so you could see the entire run. How is that less coverage ?

Also, if you bothered to watch the pre race chat, they had a UCI director on that was very much in favour of adding more races to the calendar but the biggest thing missing... was money. Having Mercedes on board as a title sponsor should help with that.

The teams wanted the protected riders because of the disaster that happened in Australia last year that ruined the event for spectators and the overall points chase for the top riders.

 @bman33: If you bothered watching the pre chat show.. you'll see it was a big push from the big teams lead by Martin Whitely from YT ... come on dude.

 @pushingbroom: I agree. There appeared to be an air of arrogance around him, and Rob Warner was just rolling over - like hell he wouldn't have wanted to ride down the hill last if he had qualified first when he was racing and let someone else run last. Seems to me that YT / Whitely are pushing to make this the AG show and be damned the rest of them???

 @bman33: Its all the Elite teams, not just Trek or Specialized. They have a committee made up the team managers of all the Elite teams. There are actually 15 elite DH teams registered for 2018, including Mondraker and Transition.

 @pushingbroom: I did watch to pre chat show. Totally forgot about YT. Martin Whitely is a bit of his own identity with any teams he managers. During the Trek days, Trek was the main frame/bike sponsor, but Martin ran the show. Very similar to what he has crafted with the YT Mob team and it's sponsors

 @sino428: Yeah I don't understand the UCI bashing. It sounds to me like the teams and Red Bull wanted to change the format, the UCI said ok. Then the change didn't exactly go as expected and they want to fix that. Most of the interviews I've heard from people who actually deal with the UCI, the teams and riders, seem to think that the UCI really takes their input seriously and works with them and it seems like they don't take forever to fix things either.

Formula 1 did the same thing last season. They tried a new quali format, fans and teams weren't stoked on it, the FIA and teams got together and for the next race it was back to how it was. Most people were happy that F1 was willing to try something new. Sometimes you try and improve something and it doesn't work out, what is important is recognizing that and making adjustments as needed--that seems to be what they are doing here.

I think the concept of having the championship leaders start last makes sense. A lot of the drama of the race is around what those few guys are gonna do and how it affects the overall. It does make qualifying seem weird though and I'm skeptical they can fit quali in with that overall. Maybe they just need to make it so the top 3 guys (not 10) in the overall are guaranteed in the last 10 riders and otherwise it's down to qualifying order.

 If a protected rider fails to qualify, they should be riding first. Being protected gets them into the finals, it should not give them any more advantage than that.

 @Fix-the-Spade: if they're protected they should not be getting held up by other low-ranked riders, and they should be getting the media exposure, so starting them in 20th or something does make sense. Nobody wants to miss the coverage of Gwin/Minnaar/Bruni's race run because of a flat in qualifying, that'd be silly.

 @Socket: well it would add a challenge to qualifying for them. The top guys who can qualify easily if they go full gas need to ride at 90% to ensure they get a top 20 to get on TV and max media exposure.
Remember, if they f*ck up and flat or crash in quali they still get to race and still get to sit on the hotseat and get the championship points if their race time is fastest.

 @AyJayDoubleyou: And if you get to sit in the hot seat then your sponsors get coverage (possibly more!). It's pretty simple, really. Just have Red Bull zoom out a bit to give the sponsors some air time.

 @Fix-the-Spade: agreed, but they should also show their runs on rbtv. That way, it's fair, and sponsors are happy.

 @Socket: That denies other riders and sponsors their TV time for what might be their only world cup finals appearance that year. This whole situation stinks of major sponsors rigging things so nobody else gets any coverage, at the expense of the minor teams and the competition as a whole.

 @Fix-the-Spade: Hit the nail on head, this format would work very well if we were give more coverage of the event watching the top 30 for example of elite.

 I don’t care tbh. If they f*ck up qualifying then that’s tuff. You don’t see lewis Hamilton on pole each race because he won the championship last year. It isn’t fair on the person that qualifies first. Where is the point of qualifying? @Socket:

 @Socket: after this year all riders are shown in the live stream, there is no reason why to show protected riders later. They get shown and that must be enough.

 @Socket: This is that we've had for years, protected riders used to get slotted in 21st or so last year.

 @Fix-the-Spade: amen to that

 The riders still earn points based on qualifying performance though, which hopefully discourages protected riders from just cruising down the course. However, I agree that it is still a bit of an unfair advantage since they have less to gain and probably won’t go 100% or risk as much to top out during qualifying.

 @BamaBiscuits: but what does anybody actually gain from going last? Usually it means you get the worst conditions and the most blown out course, and/or you get caught in the rain if that happens to start midway through finals. If anything I think this actually does the opposite and means people have MORE to gain by giving it everything in qualifying since it won't necessarily disadvantage them in the finals.

 @Socket: They get to know how hard everyone pushed it. If 20 seconds dropped off the quali time he knows he's gotta pull something special. Or if his main rival crashed he knows he can take it easy and not risk injury.

 @Socket: Good point. In alpine skiing, the top qualifiers go toward the front of the pack. (In downhill and Super G, and in the first run for slalom, GS and combined). No one wants to ski in the rutted-up mess after 40 people have shredded the snow to crap. (At the same time, no one really wants to go first, either).

Rocks and dirt are not the same as snow, granted, but I would still think the course is in worse shape at the end of the race than it is in the beginning... In what way is it an advantage?

 @TheR: Depends, if the course is wet but not raining it tends to dry out and get faster the more riders and time goes by.

 As I understand it, previously the top 20 men/10 women of the current season were protected, but this year the top 10 men/5 women of the current season are protected, plus the top 10m/5w from the previous season are also protected.

I think the UCI has to take Redbull Media's requests into account, they are what makes the racing so accessible and popular, if they piss off RBMH they'll lose their largest media partner and sponser. But I think we all agree that RBMH really screwed this one up, seems like they just want their highest paid athletes down the hill last regardless of the course.

 @arden0: Fair point on the RBMH thing biking isn't nearly televised enough.

Back to protected... what does being "protected" actually mean though in this context?

 The media influences small rules changes and presentation of all professional sports.

 @BEEner: A protected rider will get to race on race day regardless of what happens in their qualifying run. For instance, if Gwin got a flat and came last in qualifying he'd still be able to race, but if Brook Macdonald had the same thing happen he'd be sitting that race out. It also affects the start order, depending on how the rule is written.

 @arden0: cool thanks!!

 The rare times it does happen are exciting, though. The tension building up to their race run breaks up the normal routine, and heightens the viewers sense of wonder. This change is just part of the old "too many cooks spoil the pot" dilemma that flattens out those peaks of excitement. It's like when a music artist gets signed to a big label and their songs end up getting over produced and watered down in order to sound inoffensive in the background of commercials and summer movies.

 i like the idea that the top 20 rider, ride in the last hour of the race. but also some of the fastest qualifier. i think the idea of red bull tv is a start but need some modification like fastjohn1 is suggesting

 And as it gets bigger they'll start running into their own weird rule issues causing confusion and outrage on the message boards. Enjoy the good times while they last! ...or just ride your bike...

 I join you,,,,

 Got it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 "Well, I do love fig newtons"

 maybe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 @ kolya Absolutely! Had he gone 1st, he would of had another outcome, (1st?) as would have all the other riders. Don't fix what's not broken! The messed with the time-space continuum!