UCI to Consider Lowering Female Transgender Athletes’ Maximum Testosterone Threshold
Kate Weatherly is a transgender woman who has achieved several strong international results since her transition. She's currently recovering from a broken neck sustained at Mont-Sainte-Anne this year.
The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) has released a statement announcing that they are considering lowering the maximum threshold of Testosterone that competitors can have from 10nmol/L to below 5nmol/L to be eligible to compete in the female category.
This statement comes following the UCI's recent meeting with a group of International Federations in Lausanne on transgender athletes’ eligibility in competitive sports. The goal of the working group was for the international federations to "draft their own transgender eligibility rules and establish a medical and scientific network to promote research in the area of transgender athletes."
Earlier this month, experts from relevant disciplinary fields, representatives of the International Paralympic Committee, the International Tennis Federation, World Rowing, the International Golf Federation, and the International Association of Athletics Federations, and cis and trans athlete representatives had an initial meeting. After a day of presentations and discussions, the IIAF group agreed on the following:
• They remain committed to fair and equal opportunity for female athletes
• The inclusion of trans women within the female category should be promoted with meaningful eligibility standards, provided it does not create intolerable unfairness
• Rules intended to accommodate trans athletes should be sports-specific and designed by the relevant international federation.
• Testosterone is the primary known driver of the performance gap between males and females and serum Testosterone is regarded as an acceptable proxy to distinguish male from female athletes.
• If a federation decides to use serum Testosterone for this purpose, it should adopt a fixed threshold at or below 5nmol/L for eligibility for the female category.
• More research is needed on this issue and should be encouraged by sports federations.
The full report of the initial meeting can be found here.
After the subsequent meeting with their working group, the UCI the statement below.
UCI Statement:
The consensus drawn up by the working group will enable the UCI to take into consideration, in line with the evolution of our society, the wish of concerned athletes to compete while guaranteeing as far as possible equal chances for participants in women’s competitions.
The text concerned will be submitted for approval by the UCI Management Committee with a view to application in 2020. The UCI will adapt its regulations in accordance with the new guidelines.
The UCI shares the conclusions reached by the participants, who included representatives of transgender and cisgender athletes. The conclusions notably state that if a Federation decides to use serum testosterone to distinguish between male and female athletes, it should adopt a maximum threshold of 5nmol/L for eligibility for the female category.
The consensus drawn up by the working group will enable the UCI to take into consideration, in line with the evolution of our society, the wish of concerned athletes to compete while guaranteeing as far as possible equal chances for participants in women’s competitions.
The text concerned will be submitted for approval by the UCI Management Committee with a view to application in 2020. The UCI will adapt its regulations in accordance with the new guidelines.
The UCI shares the conclusions reached by the participants, who included representatives of transgender and cisgender athletes. The conclusions notably state that if a Federation decides to use serum testosterone to distinguish between male and female athletes, it should adopt a maximum threshold of 5nmol/L for eligibility for the female category.
The adoption of these guidelines has not been approved by the UCI Management Committee, but if passed they will go into effect for the 2020 season. Kate Weatherly, currently the most prominent transgender racer in mountain biking, is supportive of the proposed changes.
 | I think it’s a good change, as I’ve said in previous interviews and discussions the old policy’s testosterone limit was really too high, since cisgender female athletes usually have 0.5-2.5 n/mol of testosterone, and 10n/mol is much higher, 5n/mol is still high but it’s a step in the right direction. It won’t be an issue for me as I have completed blocked testosterone and usually test at around 0.4 n/mol so still much lower than the top levels. I won’t be competing next year due to the recovery time my neck requires, however I would be able to if I desired. |
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Visual acuity has consistently been shown to be better in males (Burg, 1966; McGuinness, 1976; Ishigaki and Miyao,1994; Abramov et al.,2012a). Although this finding has also been observed in other mammals (Seymoure and Juraska, 1997), some have speculated that sex differences in visual acuity in humans are related to the roles that men and women played in early human hunter–gatherer societies, in which males may have been required to be able to identify prey or threats at greater distances (Silverman and Eals, 1992; Sanders et al., 2007; Stancey and Turner, 2010; Abramov et al., 2012a).
(Obviously I’m being sarcastic...but some people don’t know what that is)
This is all crap! UCI should have and open category for them. Hey have nothing against them I just want an even playing field for natural born women. That's it.
I'm a total libertarian - do whatever the hell you want with your life, I really don't care and will fight tooth and nail for your right to do it even if I don't agree with it. However, this is a separate issue.
Warms my heart that most pinkbikers are on the same page about this. The media seems to tell us that if the idea of someone with XY chromosomes competing against your wife/sister/mother/female friends doesn't sit right with you, you are a terrible and bigoted person.
But I’ll point out this; we don’t see any women transitioning to men then coming in to to dominate and set new records. No intentional disrespect or hate here either, but the obviousness can’t be ignored.
1. If a transgender person goes through puberty, yes, this person has the advantages of a developed male body (the bone density and muscle mass you're all preaching). But reality is, most people of the transgender community start taking hormone blockers the moment they notice puberty changes because the physical changes are the one thing they DON'T want, before they can start the real hormone therapy (like Kate did).
2. The difference of power-driven sports (lifting, soccer, and mtb too) and endurance-driven sports (running) is the key factor here, because the advantage shows the most in power-driven disciplines. This is I why I (imho) disagree with transgender athletes in powerlifting, who already went through puberty. But in mountainbiking, those athletes would be automatically excluded with this new ruling, as they won't go under the 5 n/mol mark.
3. I agree with the change of the rule, like Kate already stated, natural hormone levels are under the planned rule of 5 n/mol and hormone levels of transitioned athletes, who didn't hut puberty, as well
4. All the information aside, one emotional point: I am a cis gender female so this shouldn't bother me, but taking away a desire or dream of a person who did not choose to be born in the wrong body is dicrimination and this is why this solution is not expedient. Imagine having to compete in the female category because you were born with a vagina, and you don't get a chance to prove that you don't belong here. That is discrimination.
Educate, don't hate.
Here are the sources:
Interview Kate: www.wideopenmountainbike.com/2019/07/kate-weatherly-new-zealand-downhill-mountain-biker-interview
Real Clear Science's article on typical male and female testosterone levels: www.realclearscience.com/articles/2019/04/19/what_is_a_normal_level_of_testosterone_110949.html
Serum androgen levels and their relation to performance in track and field: mass spectrometry results from 2127 observations in male and female elite athletes: bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309
Testosterone dose-response relationships in hysterectomized women with or without oophorectomy: effects on sexual function, body composition, muscle performance and physical function in a randomized trial: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24281237
Effects of sex steroid hormones on regional fat depots as assessed by magnetic resonance imaging in transsexuals: www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/ajpendo.1999.276.2.E317
Body composition, bone turnover, and bone mass in trans men during testosterone treatment: 1-year follow-up data from a prospective case-controlled study (ENIGI): www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/papers/25550352
NHS guide to hormone therapy for trans people: www.teni.ie/attachments/9ea50d6e-1148-4c26-be0d-9def980047db.PDF
Fiber Type Composition of the Vastus Lateralis Muscle of Young Men and Womenhttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/002215540004800506
Morphometric analysis of normal skeletal muscles in infancy, childhood and adolescence: www.jns-journal.com/article/0022-510X(8
Interpreting laboratory results in transgender patients on hormone therapy: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24332725
Transsexuals and competitive sports, Gooren & Bunck: eje.bioscientifica.com/downloadpdf/journals/eje/151/4/425.pdf
Preservation of volumetric bone density and geometry in trans women during cross-sex hormonal therapy: a prospective observational study: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25377496
Or the short version in a video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=02FCYz8bOo8
I have no hate for transgendered people and a lot of empathy for what is clearly a difficult experience. That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to compete against women.
I have no lack of biology knowledge and I'm not clear on how any of your links support the idea that a level playing field can be created between biological men and women.
While studies can show that trans-women lose some muscle mass or bone-density, that doesn't at all prove that it puts them perfectly in line with women.
But more damning to your point is the the fact that you can cherry-pick as many variables as you want, but there are 100s of differences minor and major.
We are sexually dimorphic and these changes begin in utero. You make puberty out to be this major event, which clearly it is, but it's hardly the whole story. Go to a children's running race and even as children, no one would advocate for running the boys and girls together. The girls would get smoked.
It any of this fair? No, of course not. I don't take any pleasure in pointing out the obvious, that men are stronger than women. But I also don't pretend that what is obvious, common knowledge for millennia, and supported by biological science is somehow wrong.
Generalizing the situation by stating "most people of the transgender community start taking hormone blockers the moment they notice puberty changes" is absolutely misleading.
At what age would a medical professional be willing to prescribe such potent therapy? 12 or 13 for boys? As early as 10 or 11 for girls? Do they have the emotional and psychological foundation to make such a life-changing decision at that age???
Furthermore, if you have ever watched 5-6 year olds play soccer, the chromosomal differences are already evident. If you have observed a household of young boys and another of same-ages girls, the differences in type and physicality of play are also clear. They continue to carry the history and learning of those activities with them regardless of later surgical or hormonal therapy.
My point is that physical and developmental differences begin LONG before the realization of any gender identity. Little boys may wear their mothers heels, dresses, and jewelery, but they will still tussle and wrestle like boys do.
Human beings are NOT gender-interchangeable masses of moldable putty until the sudden onset of puberty.
Chromosomal males begin to gain physical advantages over chromosomal females from shortly after birth. To deny that takes one down the path of alternate facts.
Interesting flex.
Gather 3 athletes. 1 elite Male, 1 elite female & 700 elite trans athletes. Set 2 $10 million prizes at the registration booth and tell the trans person they must pick one of the other two athletes to compete against for the money in an unspecified athletic event.
See which one they pick.
June 6th, 2017
AUBURN, CA—Local 36-year-old man Nate Ripley, who identifies as a six-year-old, “absolutely crushed” a game-winning homer at a local tee-ball game and won the championship for his team Monday evening, reports confirmed.
Ripley reportedly walked up to the plate in the bottom of the 6th, pointed his bat toward the left-field wall looming 130 feet in the distance, and let her rip, sending the ball rocketing over the fence and into a parking lot as the fans cheered and his coach yelled out, “Attaboy, Nate! Good job, bud!”
His team, the Lil’ Padres, attempted to hoist him up on their shoulders in celebration of their great victory over the favored Tiny Tigers, but were unable to pick up the large 230-pound man.
Ripley’s feat comes at the end of a momentous tee-ball season, in which the self-identified six-year-old absolutely shattered every record set prior to that point. With a 1.000 batting average, 52 home runs, and an incredible showing at first base, second base, shortstop, third base, and pitcher, the man is being called an inspiration to other six-year-olds everywhere.
“I’m just proud to be here with my team. It’s all for the love of the game,” an emotional Ripley told reporters while enjoying an orange slice and juice box after the championship. “I couldn’t have done it without my team.”
No, you’re a female who’s bought into the clown world labeling of gender.
You don't have to answer since you're obviously not. So you can say that righteous stuff all you want can't you.
Trans simply need their own category. If a trans doesn't want to race a trans...then go be butthurt.
What do you do for a living?
www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2019/07/18/genome-differences-men-women
Just as a side note: I do not care what people do to/with their own bodies in their spare time and with their money. Their body belongs to them and so does their income. Plus I've seen far far far worse (obesity, heart problems, breathing problems, etc.) done with less... so to each their own as long as they aren't pushing it on other people...
On the other hand, I think that competing at such a high level with the changes made through these decisions should not be taken lightly. At the core, each individual is genetically still their first sex. It's not just about having an X or Y but how the body uses these differences in the expression of other genetic information. Individuals may be able to take hormones to suppress certain characteristics that they deem unfit for their preferred gender, but these changes are mostly for outward appearances. Genetics and gender/sex cannot be completely controlled with current medicine. So to say that suppressing certain aspects of an athlete and allowing them to compete with the opposing gender is fair is not completely correct until we understand each difference, or create medicine that completes transitions individuals to the genetic level.
Also, there are more than two biological categories (although rare) so this way would most likely not work either... www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
Also here’s the facts in easily digestible video format from someone at the forefront of the issue.
fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton
If she was a consistent winner in all the races, I would say people might have a point of unfair advantages. She's struggled to compete in the field, in my opinion. I don't see her on the podium really at all. So i think the comments here are just BS.
Look into it and you’ll see the same people believing in the same anti factual nonsense. Clown world perfectly describes the alternate reality these people live in.
why would anyone be allowed to compete w/ 5nmol or 10nmol? Shouldn't they be closer to .6?
interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field
I wonder how Floyd Landis' testosterone levels compare for the infamous ride to Morzine.
Should biologically female racers be allowed to dope to get to the 10 nmol (current) limit
Back on topic. I agree, aspects of the gender debate are insane, as are some of the physical ramifications behind it. A recent example was the gender neutral bathroom debate. It became a big deal for what I observed as no reason, the solution for the perceived problem was simple and actually saves establishments money. A local brewery has one large bathroom but no urinals, all stalls with doors. Simple and the world didn't end.
Anti-factual nonsense; can we agree this is true on right and left? And where did the Islam thing come from, is that a talking point in conservative groups? ALL liberal people I know reject organized religion (not spirituality) as a way to control weak minded people and attack real progress based on data and science. Heck even a lot of conservative folks I know have grown tired of religion. And speaking of alternate reality how do you account for climate change deniers and the election of a populist demagogue on the right? Crazy is crazy, whatever side of the coin you are on.
The problem is people picking a team and cheering blindly.
I tell conservatives who think any Democrat is evil to go look up countries that have only one political party.
The list is short about 10 countries starts with North Korea ends with China.
Also I agree with both of your posts.
I was thinking about the bathroom thing the other day..I mean gay people use them already right? So if a dude wants to get a look at my **** he already can.
Like really? Its already hard enough to keep this conversation on a non sexist lvl (I am quite impressed though) but at least leave that fking racist sh*t out of it!
A couple months ago I was watching a interview with UFC kahbib nurmegamedov (sorry spelling) and he stated something to the order of " if you insult my religion what do you expect?"
As if insulting ones imaginary friend should result in physical violence.
I am against anything that puts that kind of thinking in people.
Second I feel that way about all religions. Wearing a cross around your neck is the same as wearing a funny hat or scarf. Thinking that it will get you closer to your imaginary friend.
All religion is dangerous it controls people's minds and hearts with no evidence whatsoever.
I see someone in a hajib or wearing a cross the same as I see someone in a maga hat. Dangerous. And willing to believe some DUMB ASS SH*T.
I think you are referring to exaggerated submission to a form of collective consciousness. It is surely an evolutionary mechanism that strenghtens the tribe but it can go rampant. I used to think it’s a sign of being rather stupid and unfit to the future of humanity but then Trump won election, many idiots across the world did too, Brexit as well and great team sports, Olympic games don’t lose much popularity at all. To me it shows limitations of intelligence. After all it is all a matter of circumstances.
Most Religions are an organized form of spirituality. We must remember that it civilizes tribal beliefs. Ayahuasca seems awake as fuk and all, but it’s nothing more but a ritual detached from rather sketchy culture and almost every single Westener who would realize where it is coming from would be scared to shit. So we cherry pick what suits us, which is more than fine. But I still find ironic how religions take humans away from deep spirituality, available mostly through various psychoactive substances but those who mastered tripping are nowhere less savage than Religious people, they just don’t have the power of the masses to operate with.
Did I mention that Rachel Atherton ruined modern era of Womens DH racing while folks are preaching the chopped off dicks Appcalypse
Yes Getting money out of politics is Paramount. We can't save our democracy if we don't get the money and corporate lobbiests out.
And just last night Anna on Young Turks was saying how happy she was that Muslim women are finally getting representatives in Congress.
And I'm thinking aren't we supposed to be separating church and religion from government? This is a backwards step.
In my neck of the woods we just got done fighting the idiotic "intelligent design" as an option to teaching evolution in school.
It may be possible if all this is linked with testosterone or whatever during the first days/weeks of pregnancy.
There may be a rise of T secretion that may define the sexual attributes, and earlier or later another that would define the brain, and maybe most of the time both indicate the same gender for both brain/mind development and body/genitals development, but maybe in some rare occasion the result is different.
Now it doesn't tell if transgender women should race with woman or not, but don't oversimplify what isn't simple.
BTW it was Obama who coined Islam the “Religion of peace”.
Islam is an ideology, not a race. Interestingly women also suffer under that nonsense too.
Allowing females and trans females to compete is not comparing apples to apples. More like peaches to plums.
I'll see myself out.
Socialisation and peer pressure have taught women they need a private stall in which to urinate - but that could change. Women are just as capable as men of peeing in a urinal while standing up. The obvious solution is to have a peeing area with urinals and a pooing area with stalls. That way men are not disadvantaged by having to wait for a stall in a unisex bathroom that they neither want or need.
You may want to have a look between your ears as well. It really isn't super simple.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality
Humans are sexually dimorphic, which means there are 100s of differences large and small (mostly small) between men and women. Taking cross-sex hormones cannot account for all of these differences and differences in visual acuity are one of many important differences that would impact the ability to create a fair, level playing field between biological men competing against women.
The end.
Educate the kids, don't promote ill informed decisions
Because I’m going to my grave believing a person’s sex is determined by the chromosome they’re born with. Even if it’s an premature grave for refusing to accept something different. And even though I’ll never lift a finger to intentionally cause harm to other people who may think different. Regardless of whatever is driving them to have a different belief. If my belief and decisions resulting from it somehow cause another person hurt, well I can’t do anything more about that than another person can if their belief and decisions from it cause me hurt.
Because it does cause me considerable grief and sorrow to see people walking on a path that I believe with all my mind, and with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my might, is not going to end well for them. Each of us will answer for ourself and only ourself on that day. I pray for all people to find the straight gate and narrow path, that is; salvation, and the life ever-after.
Lord knows her visual acuity has been a problem when it comes to spotting predators at a distance!
Bottom line is it is really easy for her to say because she doesn't stand to lose anything because she isn't wining anything as it is. Go "all capital letters" something that matters you angry douche nozzle.
Devinci is a pretty good option, though, as Leonardo Davinci may have had a complex sexual and/or gender identity situation:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_life_of_Leonardo_da_Vinci#Sexuality
youtu.be/jAdG-iTilWU
No real right answer... just need to find the right shade of grey!
If a women by any definition wanted to enter the men's class they are free to do it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyyKLqlNTCM
cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/transgender-world-champion-rachel-mckinnon-defends-title-in-manchester
Please inform yourself better.
if you have one implanted in your ass, thats ok. haha
But you're totally wrong.
www.vice.com/en_us/article/8x8bez/yes-there-are-trans-animals
You can move the bar wherever you want, but transgender behavior existed before humans were doing it.
The type of science I’m talking about is biology and psychology which I would not qualify as “made up”. Here’s a source from the American Psychological Association. You should read it. www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/11/psychology-transgender
Why do you think that people think or feel what gender they are? It’s because of their DNA. Someone who is transgender feels just as strong that they are whatever gender they are just as you do.
I’m not going to entertain this any longer. It’s clear most of your experience comes from Facebook articles and high school classes.
I also linked a JSTOR article. You should read that one.
Hermaphroditism is not a mutation and is not the same thing as transgender.
DNA is genetic code. The only thing it tells us is how organisms most likely will function or look.
Yes “psych 101” is what tells us the basic of gender. Higher level psychology explains thing like transgender people, but even people who have taken psych 101 know that transgenderism is not a mental illness by definition.
but construction sector is favoring male traits. I would argue huge portion of academia too, including human sciences. completly different thing in psychology, beauty. When I see a male psychologist, then I am just waiting for the dude to tell me what he already knew about me long before I was born. Women listen. Even the bossy ones. I am generally much more sexist towards men, because I am unable to give them slack. If you are dude and you can't make up your mind under tension (without being able to motivate it and behave as if you were not at any fault) then change job. If you come to me and say: I was wasted last night, then no probs. But if you sneak around finding fault in God knows what... GTFO. With women, I have no problems, they are rarely lazy and most often more focused, more present. If they appear tired or split, then they tend to have a reason for it. Men... in most cases lazy and unwilling to put their sht together. If you are a mother of a kid younger than 15 - you get all the slack from me until you mess up repeatedly. Which is rare
And I know I am not the only one when I listen to guys like Jordan Peterson. The untold, uncomfortable fact for feminists: males treat males in much more extreme ways - they either get along very well, or they will stomp the weak dude down into the hole he crawled from under. When it comes to competition, males are much more capable of healthy, productive competition. Womens relations with other women... hah... the biggest enemy of a woman, tends to be another woman...
A case study... there are some beggars sitting around entrances to shops here. Sometimes it is a couple changin posts. Dude will get some coins and will wander around, buy a pack of cigarettes, talk on the phone about meaning of life with his buddies. Woman? She will sit there and work for it, she has a kid somewhere, making sure it gets any food into it's mouth. I have seen it time and time again. The analogy to male lion sitting under a tree while females hunt, cannot be more accurate. But it also shows what we humans are made of. Monkeys who learned to virtue signal...
One thing is certain, though: Kate has to deal with a lot more than most athletes and she stays really positive and friendly, which makes her pretty great.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzg9QtQelR8
pretty much says that it doesn't matter how low the test levels are or how early the various drugs to transition start being taken, biological men are still significantly stronger than biological women and still keep all the other genetic advantages too.
The only fair way is to race as the sex you were born as.
not what they want to be and change original morphology to adapt reality
to suit their preference are allowed to compete based on this decision?
Essentially they are allowed to compete in whatever category they choose.
And you have to debate if this is fair or NOT?
This is a symptom of a society that cannot or will not accept that it is killing itself.
This and participation trophys for soccer.
It’s not nice but it’s hardly a personal attack or “slur” that should ban someone from posting things on a mountain biking website. People call each other “unwanted names” on Pinkbike every single day, doesn’t mean everyone should to do everything possibly in their power to punish them.
Just don't screw over anyone else trying to live how they want/need.
Take a look:
www.faircop.org.uk
This is going too far when your dictating the use of pronouns under threat of retaliation.
What you personally consider disrespectful does not negate our right to free speech on this site or anywhere else.
Just like the wild salmon don't need a dam or a hatchery, we dont need political moderators or thought police.
I would hope your more interested in protecting the real women racers and not put TGs "claimed rights" above the rights of real women and men.
Just because they made a decision to change genders doesn't mean I have to give up my rights to free speech.
This is not about respect its about politics. You let the ebikers hang out to dry and now the real women racers.
sad bro.
What's to stop Loic from suddenly identifying as a woman and then go on to be the first ever UCI Inter-Gender World Champion? Wait. That would be cool by the way.
The fairness debate is super important, and we want it to play out here, but it needs to be respectful. Transphobic slurs have real consequences for a vulnerable group of people—imagine what the consequences of some of the offhand "jokes" here could be.
We're doing our best to find balance.
The same kind of consequences as people calling people a c*nt every 2 hours?
protecting open and honest discussion rather than worried about a minority group who are infiltrating and disrupting our sport. and why is this thread been removed from the que?
transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy
PS: I've stated scientific reality in my comments, and none of them have gotten deleted. How weird...
Also really weird..it's always former men entering women's sport successfully. Never the other way around.
Its weird..like physical make up has more to do with it then chemicals.
Sounds obsurd doesn't it. You could take the best female rider in the world pump her full of T and she would never podium.
But we are forced to accept it in the reverse when a middling male rider who can't crack the top 20 starts podiums as a female a year later.
And the chemicals don't change enough or we would see former women beating men.
I don't care what links you put up or what slanted study you put up.
Real world evidence please.
You cant explain or link away the fact that the sex that everyone said would have an advantage DOES.
And the sex that everyone said wouldn't have an advantage is not winning or breaking records.
It's called real world evidence.
I can prove that former men competing in women's sports still maintain advantage because RESULTS.
End of story. Live your life however you want.
But don't cheat people at sport.
Gotcha bro.
This also ignores all the other physical advantages that men who compete in the women's field have. A reduction in T levels doesn't reduce performance that much.
Hormonal treatment can reduce the effectiveness, maybe not at the same rate for everyone, but it will never cause the lungs to get smaller or the nasal cavity to shrink so it could never be equal in that regard. And to the same point, muscle mass on men starts at a higher point along with bone density, depreciating that with hormone treatment doesn’t mean that it will get to a level of parody to naturally born women.
I am terrible at racing and it doesn’t matter to me in the slightest.
There is a right and wrong side to stand on when it comes to doing what is right and supporting each other. I just find the science of the competition side of it fascinating.
I look at the Australian (nz? I forget) athlete that transitioned and went straight to second or third place behind Rachel atherton, nuts. I can see where people get frustrated.
But I also can’t even begin to imagine living a life where I never felt comfortable being in my own body because it didn’t feel like it was the right gender.
Soap box off
As a biologist I don't see how it is possible to erase years and years of mitotic differentiation into a phenotypic male. Some hormone therapy and a good plastic surgeon and we are good to go????? Yes there are timed hormonal rhythms during development but this alone is not differentiating the male body from the female body - not even close.
For the sake of argument, let's image that I'm 42 years old, but I identify more as a 50 year old since I'm really out of shape for my age (I'm not but play along), can I race in the 50 yr old class? I don't see a this being a different argument.
At some point, we should all accept the facts that we are born with a specific sex. If you want to compete in sports, then compete as you were born. If you want to be the opposite sex, that's fine w/ me, but perhaps the trade off is that you don't try to compete unfairly.
"edit" or if you were transgender or feel you could empathize with what a trans person might feel in this situation, what would your opinion be?
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people assume their ideas about trans people are grounded in FACTS and LOGIC and BASIC BIOLOGY, and that assumption makes them wary of any challenge to those ideas. As frustrating as this is, I can't really blame people for honest ignorance. I mean, unless you're
(A) An aspiring tran, (B) A friend/family member/partner of a trans person, or (C) Taking classes on gender n sexuality,
you probably haven't sought out information on trans people (hell, before My R e a l i z a t i o n, I didn't know much either). You probably have, however, skimmed past plenty of clickbaity headlines like "Trans Women are DESTROYING Women's Sports." Maybe you asked yourself "hang on, then why isn't women's MTB racing trans-dominated?" but just didn't follow through on finding the answer. And maybe even though you doubted that headline, it still stuck somewhere in your brain. So, to all the cis people in this thread, I would highly recommend that you examine your beliefs about trans people in sport. Ask yourself, how much of this is rooted in fact, and how much in subconscious biases and assumptions based on stuff like... that one class period your high school health teacher dedicated to "Well, sometimes people get sex changes. No idea why; I like my wing-wang just fine. pretty sure they're just really gay, i dunno," and that Futurama episode where Bender transitions just to dunk on the fembots at the Robolympics. Ask yourself if your viewpoint is coherent. Does it actually withstand scrutiny? For example, if you're saying people ought to compete in the category of their assigned-at-birth gender, you will have to contend with the fact that some trans dudes (people who transition female-to-male) are ripped af--making them compete against cis women would be unfair to both parties, and likely result in... some absurd shit like this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs Do that, being mindful of your sources and their biases, maybe talk to a trans person (I'm right here; I'll answer your questions if you're not a dick), probably watch some Contrapoints videos. Also hey, never hurts to read the whole article (and figure out what it means) before forming an opinion.
regarding your last argument, FtM trans people should not be allowed to race in women category either, even though they meet the "gender criteria" for this category... for a simple reason that they dont comply with antidoping requirements.. same way how a man is not allowed to race in male category when they are pumping tons of testosterone into their system...
to as “the spirit of sport”. It is the essence of Olympism, the pursuit of human excellence
through the dedicated perfection of each person’s talents."
Perfections of talents, not through perfection of bioengineering technologies.
But on the point of competition I have to disagree with you.
In timed sports like swimming, cycling and athletics, the women's WR is almost always 90% of the men's WR. A bit old, but I think it still applies (it checks out on the DH and Enduro races I looked at):
www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/the-golden-ratio-the-one-number-that-describes-how-mens-world-records-compare-with-womens/260758
I would suggest a similarly capable male and female professional should have a similar differential. If times before and after transition could be compared, and you are say > 12% slower, then I would say it is fair to compete.
Maybe you should just speak on behalf of yourself...
Of course the question of fairness in competition is a valid one and it’s simply so hard to come up with an empathetic and fair metric. Testosterone is a huge factor but not the only one of course. Forcing trans women to compete as men is simply cruel. What do you think of a testosterone threshold combined with a small handicap?
Anyway back on topic. I don't race- cause why not focus on fun. Competition is make-believe and people shouldn't take it so seriously. Haha
See y'all on the trails.
Most research on the topic shows testosterone levels to be a pretty decent metric. I feel like people tend not to grasp that while, no, testosterone is certainly not the only factor, its level affects (and is thus indicative of changes in) many other biological factors. And these other factors do significantly impact one's performance.
See the link in my reply to @BigAlfonz. Women have to train longer and harder than men to achieve the same level of ability, and the same is absolutely true of trans women post-HRT.
Not very well I assume. Can't they just boost testosterone and get podiums? I mean if that's the defining factor what's the problem?
It's a one way street.
Many great points have been made why it isn't fair.
People have pointed out that one can see the difference in sex at 7 years old.
You just dismiss anything that doesn't line up in your favor. Then post a bunch of links that doesn't help your case at all.
I'm progressive left but there is a difference between having an open mind and saying that there is chance a the Earth is flat.
There is no chance. It isn't.
Well during the soviet union years many female athletes doped with testosterone and roids. Male sex hormones are the main factor here. It's pretty obvious.
www.road-results.com/racer/136273
Here’s an article regarding her win at Tour de Tucson, which also talks about her performance testing a bit more:
tucson.com/news/local/columnists/steller/steller-transgender-cyclist-s-win-in-tucson-was-fairer-than/article_0851e258-2eb6-540a-8e60-1875e7bc836d.html
*this article isn’t perfect, but it does a good job of explaining what research has actually revealed in recent years. One minor correction: the author states that trans woman athletes simply need to be on HRT for a year and test at the designated level of testosterone. The actual requirement is a bit more stringent, requiring that an athlete test at those levels (which they might achieve after about a year) and remain at those levels for at least another year prior to competition.
This is the problem.
You really think thats 100% true now and forever? get real.
www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2019/october/biological-male-runner-named-conferences-female-athlete-of-the-week
Meanwhile.
www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports
Shall this go on?
Why so many people think the answer to this is black and white amazes me - in 2019 why on earth should we resign ourselves to Victorian ideas of gender definition??
We have the science people!!! Let's use it and work out a fair way forward for EVERYONE. Commendable that the UCI are doing just that by the sounds of it.
Is that such an intolerable concept @Beerguzzlinfool et al????
Also, full props to the admins for deleting comments - there's some really awful discrimination in this thread.
how many times did we hear that?
sorry but this time it is black and white because grey is causing reverse discrimination and it is not a solution to change the nature of the sport for a few peoples personal issues.
Moving through the centuries of human experience, gender has never been as hard and fast as it has been in the last 100 years. It's not an unequivocal law and shouldn't be treated as such.
Then again, you're a Doc so maybe you know best?
AGREE - upvote
DISAGREE - downvote
...AGREE - no vote ????
It may or may not be the primary known driver, but in either case, there are many, many differences between men and women that apply to athletic performance. We are a sexually dimorphic species.
CIS?!?! Seriously? there is no CIS! There is just male or female. Live your life as you wish but don't impose stupid terminology on anybody.
But even a woman with above average testosterone levels will still be drastically physiologically different than a man with below average testosterone levels.
Whenever you allow certain athletes to mess with hormone therapy fair goes out the window.
Man, woman and everything in between, same rules, NO DRUGS
Thats fair for everyone.
If they're going to do this then all athletes should be tested, not just transgender.
Think about this: who is hurt by the current, scienceless rules? Real women that were born as women and don’t have the advantages of being a male. You know, the majority of people for whom this entire field was created for . Who benefits from the new rules? The same people. Who is “hurt?” The single XY that identifies as female?
Weird, so you think the majority should suffer so a single person can benefit and win? Hell, let’s just combine men and women so the problem is gone: women will pretty much always lose and men will win.
Should we also test XY, because there are men with low testosterone that are competing. Do they get to compete against women? Since that’s your logic.
Science my ass, you just want the convenient way that benefits less than 1% of the sport.
Such a complicated world we live in now.
The second shortest is a sitter if you start at the beginning of the alphabet.
It will never happen because T is not a singular factor that alters one's biological sex and that makes you the equivalent of your cis-male self.
XX class, and XY class. I'm willing to allow XX males (trans males) to juice to natural male T levels to assist with them competing against the XY cis-males. It won't help much honestly. They will be 5% faster than the females, and still 25% slower than the males.
Let's begin by getting this out of the way. I am transgender. Whatever that means to people. For some reason, it seems to scare a lot of the population. Not sure why. They see me as a perversion, a threat to their children in restrooms and schools. A deluded person who believes they were born in the wrong body, when anyone can see that you are whatever the doctor and chromosomes say you are. Well.... not so much.
I am actually just pretty much like everyone else. It unfortunately took me far longer to come out to the world than I had wished for as a child, but I am finally happy in life. I have a lot of friends who stood by me when I spoke to them about what was coming. My family has stood behind me, and I seem to get along with anyone I meet. Just like most everybody else. Worked for the same company for 40 years. Also, I enjoy biking.
Won't bore you with my life story. I did want to bring up a couple of things though.
First, I do not know Kate Weatherly. However, I am very impressed by her. I live my life on the sideline. Occasionally, I hear and see people commenting or pointing at me, maybe staring at a restaurant. Usually, I just smile and go on with what I am doing. I cannot imagine the things that Kate and many other people that have chosen to live their dream in the spotlight have to put up with. It takes a lot of courage (which I did not have) to do what they do, and I am happy that she is following her dream. Hope you heal up Kate and get back out doing what you love.
Second, I would like to point out something. I travel as much as I can to mountain bike and plan on a lot more after I retire. In all of my trips, I have yet to meet another trans girl biking. I am sure that there are quite a few out there, as it is a large country, but it is a very small group. I can only imagine that the amount of transgender women that have the competitive will, fitness and desire to race at a top level world class event is a very, very small number. I can assure you that I did not start thinking about how once I was able to identify as a woman, I can rule the bike racing world.
Mostly, I ride bike to get away, scare myself a little, enjoy the outdoors and ride with friends (old and new). I have raced in three enduros in my life, all in the last year or so. I enjoyed them. Two were local events that were not super competitive and were end of year events. One was a women only event. Such is my life, that in just about every type of event or trip I take, I will contact the organizers or campground, etc. and explain my situation to be sure that they do not have a problem with me entering the event, or using the campground bathroom and shower, or a problem with trans people in general. Happily, so far, no one has said no. If they do happen to say no, that is fine also, I can go elsewhere. Every woman I have raced with has been very nice and friendly, and happy that I was racing with them. I have not been without a bike in my life since I was about six years old, so I am a pretty good rider. Not fantastic, but pretty good. When I entered the women's only race this year, I decided to try expert in my age group and finished about where I expected to. Out of six, I placed fifth. Also in the race was Jill Kintner in the Pro division. I ran the same course she did. As would be expected, she beat my time in four stages by about seven and a half minutes. It would have been fun to just watch her, and maybe after I retire, I will. My point being, I guess, is that despite all the hand wringing that everyone is bringing up here, just because a trans woman decides to race, does not mean she is going to dominate a race. There are some very, very good woman riders out there, and the young girls starting out today are going to be amazing.
Sorry this is so long, didn't mean to take up too much space. I honestly do not know what the answer is as far as professional racing and how we trans women fit in to it. I just thought I would put something a little nicer into the comments instead of just the usual negativity. After nearly sixty years on this globe, I have found that life is not fair. If it was, there would be a lot less war, less kids getting shot down in schools, no current administration trying to make it legal to fire me just for being transgender, and of course I would have been born......
All you can do is try to live with the rules that are there, and roll with the punches.
Also, go out to a movie this week and see JoJo Rabbit.
doesnt matter how young the testosterone levels are suppressed at, the unchangeable genetic differences still prove very very significant.
So many sad comments, sad world we live in.
All of this also assumes athletic ability is solely tied to testosterone levels and nothing else, a position that is unscientific.
Then Pinkbike invites the worst comments by saying that misgendering is a personal attack and that using someone’s name is bannable because “trans advocates and social media said using someone’s name is a slur” inviting all of pinkbike to start a political hogwash about who deserves what names. That’s not what this article is supposed to be about at all. Like I said, I don’t care if they’re a “man or woman”, that’s not what racing is about. Leave the politics out and the competition in.
Sounds legit!
If you're born a man and become a woman it's not your fault, but you need therapy and help, not your own special snow flake slot in the UCI.
Reactionary is the LGBTQI movement.
If you're not comfortable with trans people, well, that's understandable. Society is still overwhelmingly unaccepting of trans people. School curriculums tend not to address trans issues, and when they do, it's rarely in a comprehensive or meaningful way. And, up until just recently, when we became trendy and that trendiness got commodified, there's not been much positive representation of us in pop culture. Good info on The T r a n s E x p e r i e n c e can be frustratingly scarce, and when searching for it, it can be quite easy to be duped by anti-trans rhetoric masquerading as "gender-critical." Even I, AN ACTUAL REAL LIFE TRANS PERSON, still have a fair amount of that stuff baked into my subconscious. These preconceived notions can be unlearned though. And ultimately, that's gonna be the solution to your problem, because we're not going away. It's on all of us to examine and question our biases, lest we use them to justify harming those unlike ourselves. I hope that helps? Idk, if you actually want to know more, just ask and I'll answer (w/ sources).
Just lowering testosterone has little to no impact on the development of the body during adolescence..
So even if the UCI drop it to below 5 NMOL/L it’s still more than double the Average,
So at the current acceptable level of 10 NMOL/L all natural born women who’ve competed against transgender athletes have been robbed of earned results by the UCI,
Come on UCI,,, stop madness!
What I don't entertain is what I call the 'attention me' contingent of any group, those who go out of their way to make a big thing of whatever their deal is, whether thats being gay, being trans etc. etc. eg - 'look at me I;m so hard done by'
I have seen a few comments on here RE: labels, please stop labelling others. Refer to yourself as you please, I am happy for you to simply call yourself female if that is how you identify, likewise call yourself trans if you like, but don't call me cis or we have a problem. It'd be like me calling someone who is transgender he-she, technically correct but not exactly complementary or even neutral, it is inflammatory and unecessary.
In my humble opinion labelling causes much of the friction between different groups of people, how you refer to yourself is not the issue. The root of this discussion is whether certain athletes have an unfair advantage, if so what can be done to ensure all athletes in the class are competing on a level playing field. When it comes to transgender athletes, surely in some sports there is an advantage, in others a disadvantage and therefore there can not possibly be a 'one size fits all' solution to creating equality across a mixed field of competing athletes.
Would transgender athletes like to compete in their own category? or would this be demeaning? I genuinely don't know but perhaps someone can shed some light on this.
Is transgender a form of mental disability, previously it was considered to be so, earlier this year the World Health Organisation decided that it should not be considered a mental disability. I would consider this to be a move away from labelling, as I noted earlier I feel labelling is unhelpful at the best of times.
So if not a mental illness what is the root of 'transgender'?
There should be enough to make a man or not enough to make a woman, but maybe in some rare case it falls in between, there's enough to shape the body of a man but not enough to shape the mind. Well it's not that simple :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality
savewomenssports.com/science
I found this one interesting:
Changes in muscle strength and muscle cross-sectional area following cross-sex hormone treatment
Anna Wiik 1 , Mats Holmberg 1 , Tommy Lundberg 1 , Mats Lilja 1 , Daniel Andersson 1 , Stefan Arver 1 , Thomas Gustafsson 1 1. Karolinska Institutet
"Background Many biological differences seen in men and women are driven by relative differences in estrogen and testosterone levels. In transgender individuals, gender-affirming treatment includes inhibition of endogenous sex hormones and subsequent replacement with the cross-sex hormones. Yet, the effect of this treatment on functional muscle strength and mass remains poorly described. The aim of the current study was to assess the effects of an altered sex hormone pattern on muscle strength and cross-sectional area.
Methods Twelve transgender individuals, 6 trans women and 6 trans men who had been accepted to start gender-affirming medical intervention, were recruited. Knee extensor and flexor muscle strength was assessed using isokinetic dynamometry at three different angular velocities (0, 60 and 90 °/s). The assessments were made at four time points: (T1) before treatment initiation, (T2) four weeks after initiated gonadal hormonal down regulation but before hormone replacement, (T3) three months after hormone replacement therapy and (T4) eleven months after hormone replacement therapy. The cross-sectional area and radiological density of the thigh muscles were assessed by CT scans performed bilaterally at the midpoint of femur of each subject at baseline and after 11 months of cross-sex hormone treatment.
Results and Conclusions Muscle area increased 17% in trans men (p0.001) with an 8% increase in radiology density after eleven month of cross-sex hormone treatment. No change was seen in trans women. There were significant (P0.05) group x time interactions at each angular velocity. Thus, while the trans men increased their strength over the four time points, strength levels were generally maintained in the trans women. When averaging the three strength tests, knee extension (16%) and knee flexion (34%) strength increased from T1 to T4 in trans men. The corresponding changes in the trans women group were -6% and 0%, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: These results show that ~1 year of cross-sex hormone treatment results in increased muscle strength in trans men. Cross-sectional area and radiological density is also increased after testosterone treatment. However, trans women maintain their strength levels as well as cross-sectional area and radiological density throughout the treatment period. We conclude that the altered sex hormone pattern induced by gender-affirming treatment deferentially affect muscle strength in trans men vs. trans women."
Additionally: "This article is a pre-print and has not been certified by peer review" www.biorxiv.org/content/what-unrefereed-preprint
The very first sentence of the Method Statement reads as follows, “Race times from eight transgender women runners were collected over a period of seven years and, when possible, verified.” Wow. And that’s just the start. The sample size was very small. Participants were sourced online, 2 of which would only participate anonymously. The participants submitted their own anecdotal evidence, one of them comparing rcd times from when they were 26 years old to when they were 53 years old. I know they were using age grading, but Jesus that’s a stretch.
And that study only focussed on long distance running, we are talking about mountain biking. The performance between men and women in endurance sports is much closer than in power sports. And mountain biking, particularly the gravity disciplines, is a power sport.
I haven’t fully read the article @davidcoleman linked, but at least it seems to have some recorded tangible results.
What needs to be tested is LH and FSH, these are the hormones that will dictate a performance increase.
I am not trying to be inflammatory. This is something I can't get my head around.
Let's say we index our maximum potential at 100, and our psychological state is going to determine how much of this we reach (your body is able to ride before you've been on one). And assume with loads of training we get to perform at 85% of our maximum capacity, where our psyche determines that's all we can learn.
Now after the transition, let's say T, bone-density and other variables above make our maximum (physical) potential drop with 10% to an index of 90, our psyche still remembers to use 85% of our former maximal potential. Biological females will never have (had) the ability to train towards a higher maximum physical potential.
All things considered, this is a very difficult topic and I'm not sure we will ever find a solution, but this might be the reality we are going to have to live with..
"please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated."
You guys monitor your comments sections about as well as a blind guy monitors the birds flying by.... I see this type of behavior happen everyday in some form on PB.
Either Actually uphold the rules you have put in place or just let it be the the male heavy toxic comment cesspool it is. Trying to protect yourself as a company and make it look like you care about what happens in the comment section is just hilarious. Ask the owner of this company if he truly cares whats said in the comments... Because the true answer is he like the chaos and is in no rush to fix it.
Transwomen, especially those who do not take any testosterone mitigation steps, retain some, significant male advantages in regards to speed, strength, VO2 max (lung processing ability) and blood volume. and a kinesiological advantage on the bike; i.e. more direct vertical alignment of the hip socket and femur yielding slightly more power, through less rocking on the saddle left-to right, better leverage through mechanical advantage with a more efficient moment arm(leverage). Testosterone therapy, nor surgery will not mitigate this advantage.
Those individuals born with XY sex chromosomes and male reproductive organs are male
Those individuals born with XX sex chromosomes and female reproductive organs are female.
Therefore it is not fair (IMHO) for transwomen to compete in ciswomen’s cycle races because they possess an unfair advantage
I deny there is a human right to race, there is a human right to cycle but not to A cycle. there IS a right to pursue racing. Insofar as events are someone else’s creation and property, no claim upon that property exists.
“rights are moral, social precepts defining and sanctioning a person’s freedom of action. this is essentially John Lock’s definition.This is why Jefferson wrote specifically of the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As core human rights from which all other rights flow, but he purposefully did not delineate property rights. For the sake of brevity and the fact that point is highly complex.
My preferred solution regarding transwomen cycle racing; I and will encourage the IOC and UCI etc. to proscribe distinct categories for transwomen. In the absence of such a race they may race in the men’s category. promotors should be free to offer the categories as they choose.
Philosophically; wishing or fervently asserting something does not make it so. A person may declare fervently they are a woman. But the facts remain to the contrary. Consequently, I should not be able to declare I am 80 years old and demand to compete in the +70 master’s category. People know that would be patently unfair.
Certainly trans people retain all human rights before the law.
As fellow humans. We should treat such individuals with kindness, compassion (but without being disingenuous or condescending) and we should encourage acceptance to best mitigate bullying, hurtful language, disparagement, and to try to mitigate the tragic suicide levels withinIs my thinking to crude or blunt or binary? I am particularly concerned with fairness regarding ciswomen in ciswomen races.
Men possess advantages in the activities of chess, poker, bridge, (yes there are gender categories in these cerebral pursuits) As far as I can tell the reason is because men tend to be more aggressive and possess more risk tolerance and exhibit less fear. I think this assertion is factually based. This is why there are separate categories in these non-athletic activities.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugzxb5zM-A4 This is what is ridiculous. The trans"mob" intimidates & bullies natural born, biological women and anyone else that disputes this calling those against transphobic and/or racist.
Rachel McKinnon as a supposed female contestant that generates testosterone over the age of 30, 6' and over 200 lbs. dominates. She ranks at the very top. Flo Jo was one of the fastest natural born female sprinters ever. In 1988 32 years ago she broke records for the 100 (10.52) & 200 (21.56) meters that "still" stands today. Sobering? Analysis shows that in 2017 alone, “744 senior males ran 100m faster than 10.49s for a combined total of 2825 runs”. She if ran against a transgender may not be in the top 10.
pluralist.com/transgender-athletes-wreak-havoc-in-womens-rugby
Biological males who identify as transgender women are wreaking havoc in women’s rugby in Great Britain. Women’s rugby referees in England are quitting their jobs over the inclusion of the male athletes, according to a report in The Sunday Times this weekend.
“Being forced to prioritize hurt feelings over broken bones exposes me to personal litigation from female players who have been damaged by players who are biologically male. This is driving female players and referees out of the game,” one referee told the British paper under the condition of anonymity.
A lawsuit over a policy which allows transgender athletes to participate in sports based on their gender identity (nothing else, no hormonal therapy or sex reassignment surgery). The school system "adheres to Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference guidelines that allow transgender high school athletes to compete in CIAC athletic programs without restrictions -- and consistent only with their gender identity. "As examples, the lawsuit mentions two transgender athletes by name, Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood, who it says began competing in the 2017 track season and brought home "15 women's state championship titles." Keep in mind, one of them was competing on the men's team in the middle of the pack until switched over and now is breaking records.
Until hormone therapies begin to work, genetic males have a distinct advantage over genetic females, she said. Most transgender teens don’t begin hormone therapy until after puberty. Younger teens can be on puberty-blocking drugs, but puberty is very individualized and testosterone levels can vary greatly from one transgender girl to another, she said.
“The gender identity doesn’t matter, it’s the testosterone levels,” said Harper, who studies transgender athletes. “Trans girls should have the right to compete in sports. But cisgender girls should have the right to compete and succeed, too. How do you balance that? That’s the question.”
1) Doping and/or,
2) Not a biological woman?
Simply based on her race results? If so, you're truly an idiot.
side note: cecile vs. isabeau will be the best EWS contest next year.
I'm a big supporter of trans people (my gf is trans) but this ruiling seems super unfair to someone who was born a woman, has been a woman all her life, didn't even know she was XY till people questioned her results.
Oh and there is a test to tell whether the hormone levels are natural or through doping.
I disagree! Liking women is pretty ‘gay’ if you think about it... Soft features... Acting all feminine... Stylish clothing... What sort of red-blooded straight manly man would want anything to do with that??
*sarcasm*
Yeah. I legitimately do not understand other straight men who are obsessed with their own penises. I mean it’s good to love yourself, I just don’t get the appeal of that aspect. (Srsly)
End of the day, being attracted to anything is pretty gay when it comes down to it... The only truly straight activity for a man’s man is to exclusively hang with dudes while not talking to each other.
(sarcasm in case you didn't notice)
To me this felt so wrong on so many levels.
If men fight in the mens category and women fight in the womens category then why can't transgenders fight in a transgender category? Yes, I get that a transgender's main goal is to become 100% opposite of whatever they were born as but the simple notion they had to swap defines them as trans. Am I wrong?
But I don't think you understand that It's the same principle. It is seen as an unfair advantage.
I'm not against people's choice but I am about fairness in all sports and competitions.
So there is a tolerable level of unfairness?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRJkNIwW-A
sorry, too easy!
If trans athletes can’t compete fairly in the women’s competition then they should have to enter the open/men’s category. Deciding what constitutes ‘fairly’ is what this whole article is about.
No doubt it is being accepted as their desired gender but it’s not the only consideration here.
If it was, then women who have only just started transitioning and are by all measures are still biologically male would be able to enter a women’s completion in any sport. If you think that is fair and reasonable to the other women who are competing then I think we fundamentally disagree.
I thought this place was the voice of reason.
Being born a man, and identifying as a woman and competing in a women’s category is not up for debate.
The funny thing is the majority of men here - me included, would never podium against pro women straight up!
Props to Kate Weatherly & the pro women riders! You guys rock!
are these comments tough to read, or interesting? how goes recovery?
i think a lot of the negativity regarding the transgender issue (in general, not athletes) has to do with a desire for simpler times. growing up, girls were girls, they liked boys, and we all celebrated Christmas. easy peasy. most of us can't even fathom being so uncomfortable with the body parts we were born with, that we need to change it. must be tough.
I think a better understanding comes from eastern philosophy. reincarnation and karma.
We all are meant to be who we are for a very important reasons. Energy is never created nor destroyed we dont really die we just change state and we continue our journey of development into the next life. we live again and again as men and women so we understand and learn both sides of the coin. There is plenty of evidence to show that this is the case. This is why everyone is so different and also I think accounts for odd phobias and the odd unexplainable sexual feelings we all have.
Read Dr Brian Weiss book "many lives, many masters". it can change your life
Trans athletes already endure extreme scrutiny in order to compete within the rules, as Kate and others have explained ad nauseum. They shouldn't have to endure harassment from the peanut gallery on top. Trans women are women, trans men are men, period. The sanctioning bodies and committees the article describes are handling the details.
As a niche sporting community that *overwhelmingly* depends on public land access, we exclude at our peril. There's room for everyone who wants to ride and race bikes.