Are Elite Athletes At Higher Risk Of Heart Problems & Premature Death?

Sep 28, 2022 at 9:19
by Seb Stott  
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The untimely death of Rab Wardell, just days after becoming Scottish Cross Country champion, raised fresh concerns about the risks of extreme endurance training. Sadly, it is not unheard of for young athletes in prime physical condition to suffer cardiac arrest or even sudden cardiac death, where the heart suddenly stops. When this happens it's sure to catch the attention of the media and generate a lot of speculation.

The first thing to address is something several readers were questioning in the above article about Rab's death: does this have something to do with Covid vaccines? The short answer is no. Although vaccines have been linked to a slight increase in the risk of myocarditis or pericarditis (heart inflammation), the absolute risk is low - about 30 cases per million for the highest-risk age group, according to this study published in the British Medical Journal. There is no evidence that people are at increased risk of cardiac arrest after taking the vaccine. In fact, the study found that vaccination was linked with a lower risk of cardiac arrest or death. Unfortunately, contracting Covid-19 its self has been linked to a dramatic increase in the risk of various heart problems, including a 72% rise in the risk of heart failure. For more information on this, check out this article.

The other question readers were asking was whether repeatedly pushing the human body to the limit in pursuit of performance is dangerous. In other words...

Could too much exercise be bad for you?

There is plenty of published research into the effects of exercise, and without question, for most people doing more exercise reduces the risk of death and cardiovascular problems dramatically. In fact, exercise has been described as the best medicine in the world, as it reduces the risk of various diseases while improving mood, sleep, mental health, sexual function, bone density, and brain health, (among other benefits). If you only remember one thing from this article, it should be that exercise is good for you. However, it's not quite as simple as more exercise always equals a longer life.

This video by a consultant cardiologist discusses the findings of this study (and more) in detail.

This 2015 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) pooled data from a whopping 661,137 people and compared how much exercise they performed outside of work to their all-cause risk of dying during the follow-up period, which was on average 14 years. Even after adjusting for lifestyle factors (age, gender, race, education, smoking status, cancer history, heart disease, alcohol consumption, marital status, and BMI), they found that people who did more exercise were less likely to die in that time than people who did little to no exercise, but the benefits diminished with higher "exercise doses". So far, so intuitive.

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From JAMA Internal Medicine, 2015. The horizontal axis represents how much exercise people performed per week. The units inside the arrow are approximately the number of times the minimum amount recommended by the 2008 Physical Activity Guidelines for Americans. The vertical axis represents the relative risk of dying due to any cause after adjusting for other known risk factors. (Lower is better).

However, the highest exercise group (people doing more than the equivalent of 750 minutes (12.5 hours) of vigorous exercise per week - that's ten times the minimum amount recommended by the 2008 Physical Activity Guidelines for Americans - had a slightly higher risk of dying than those doing the optimum amount of exercise (around 3-10 times the recommended minimum). Specifically, the lowest risk groups had a 39% lower risk of death than those doing no leisure time exercise, but people doing more than ten times the recommended minimum had only a 31% lower risk.

It's important to underline that this highest-exercise group (on the far right of the graph) still had a substantially lower mortality risk than those getting less than the recommended amount (the two groups towards the left of the graph), which includes most people. And whether the reduction in risk of death is 31% or 39% compared to no exercise, if there was a pill that delivered that result everyone would be taking it.

But while this study adds even more weight to the message that exercise is good for you, it does suggest that those doing extremely high levels of exercise could start to increase their risk of dying as they add even more training to their routine. And while only 0.6% of those involved in the study fit into that highest-exercise group, elite athletes like Rab Wardell might be in the top 0.01% of the population in terms of exercise dose. So, are the elite of the elite at higher risk?



Berg en Terblijt - Netherlands - wielrennen - cycling - cyclisme - radsport - Wout Van Aert Belgium Team Jumbo-Visma - Tom Thomas Pidcock GBR Team INEOS Grenadiers - Maximilian Schachmann Germany Team Bora - hansgrohe pictured during Amstel Gold Race 2021 - a one day race fromValkenburg to Berg en Terblijt 216.7KM - photo NV PN Cor Vos 2021
If anyone's pushing their bodies to dangerous extremes, surely it's Pro Tour cyclists.

What about the fittest cyclists in the world?

This 2013 study from Paris Descartes University looked into Tour de France cyclists. The researchers followed up on all French participants in the Tour de France who competed between 1947 and 2012. Of the 786 cyclists who participated at least once in that time, 208 (26%) had died by 1 September 2012. That works out to be a 41% lower risk of death than what would be expected in the general French male population.

Does this prove that competing in high-level sports is good for you? No.

To quote the authors' conclusion: "Our results do not allow us to assess in detail the balance between positive effects of high-level sports activity and selection of healthy elite athletes, vs. any potential deleterious effects of excessive physical exercise or alleged doping." In other words, it may be that cyclists talented enough to compete in the Tour were already naturally healthy, so it's unclear whether the combination of intense training, competing (and possible doping) shortened or lengthened their lives. However, this study does put to bed the idea that ultra-high-level athletes are at an increased risk of dying young than average.

So how do we reconcile this with the many news stories of endurance athletes dying during or shortly after a sporting event?

It's well known that elite athletes are more likely to have heart arrhythmia, an irregular heart rhythm which can occasionally lead to sudden cardiac arrest, where the heart stops pumping due to problems with the heart's electrical system. This is not the same as a heart attack, a blockage of the blood vessels supplying the heart, which is far less common among athletes than sedentary individuals. The risk of cardiac arrest may also be raised in the short term during especially strenuous activity - such as racing. However, this seems to be outweighed in the longer term by the benefits exercise brings.




Short-term risk and long-term safety: insights from one of the largest and longest-running endurance races

One of the best sources of information on this comes from a huge and long-running cross-country skiing race in Sweden, called Vasaloppet. The 90 km race has been running for over ninety years and draws in huge numbers of competitors from elite athletes to, well, anyone capable of skiing 90 km, making it a treasure trove of data.

This 2015 study from Uppsala Universitet dug into the numbers. Over ninety years of racing and over half a million competitors, thirteen people died during the race. That works out to about 1 in 50,000 skiers. For comparison, in the USA you have a seven times higher risk of dying in a car accident over a given year.

Still, that's about 7.7 times the number of deaths you'd expect from the same number of people in the general population over the same amount of time just living normally. Twelve of those people died due to cardiac arrest - 22.1 times as many as would be expected in the general population. The increased risk of cardiac arrest per hour while ski-racing was similar to that during marathon running. All deaths occurred in men and most were among those between 51 and 70 years of age.

But that's not the end of the story. The study also compared the skiers' risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease to the general population in the years after competing in the event. Here's how the authors summarise the findings: "The short excess mortality in endurance physical activity is by far outweighed by the long-term protective effect of exercise in cardiovascular diseases and cancer."

This is backed up by an earlier study published in the Journal of Internal Medicine which followed up on people who raced the Vasaloppet between 1989 and 1998. Much like the Tour de France study mentioned earlier, they found that the ski racers had about half the overall risk of dying during the follow-up period than what would be expected in the general population after adjusting for age. This result was similar for all categories of skiers when ranked from fastest to slowest, but those who raced multiple times were at an even lower risk than those who competed once.

In other words, there is a short-term increased risk of dying due to cardiac arrest while competing in this endurance race, but in the longer term, people who compete are less likely to die prematurely than you'd expect from the general population. Like with the TDF study, this doesn't prove that racing the Vasaloppet extended their lives, as those who chose to compete were likely already healthier in general than the average person, but it does show once more that athletes are much less likely to die young than average, despite the increased risk during the event. So while there are real risks associated with high-level exercise, not exercising enough is a far bigger risk in the long run.

Averages disguise a spread

Heart disease is sadly very common. It's the biggest killer in developed countries, killing one in six Americans, and too little exercise is a major cause. So there's no contradiction in saying that athletes face a lower risk than average, but the risk of heart problems is still significant. The fact that athletes face less risk than sedentary individuals is perhaps like the fact that air travel is safer than driving; it doesn't mean the risk is negligible or that it can't be reduced further. Also, the studies we've looked at so far can only tell us about the average risk faced by athletes, and the risk is not evenly distributed.

This study called Sudden Cardiac Death in Athletes compares risk factors for SCD in National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) athletes. The table below shows how sex, race and sport affect the odds dramatically. For comparison, the risk of SCD among older athletes aged 35-65 in another study was slightly higher, at about 1 in 46,000 per athlete per year, and this article in the British Medical Journal puts it at between 1 in 50,000 and 1 in 80,000 for athletes in general. To try and give those numbers some context, the average risk of dying in a traffic accident in the USA in 2004 was 1 in 6,197.

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From "Sudden Cardiac Death in Athletes", 2016. The table shows the risk of SCD for different groups.

The most important risk factor is called Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM). It's a genetic condition that affects about 1 in 500 people. It causes the heart muscle to become thick and rough which can impair heart function or predispose people to arrhythmia. Most people with HCM have a normal life, usually without any symptoms, and the absolute risk of sudden death is low, but it's the most common cause of sudden cardiac death in young people and athletes. For this reason, people who are diagnosed with HCM are often advised to avoid competitive sports and high-intensity exercise, but screening is rare so many HCM cases go undiagnosed.

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Should you consult your doctor? What about screening?

I spoke with an NHS GP to fact-check this article and to ask when people should approach their doctor:

“I would encourage people experiencing palpitations, chest pain, shortness of breath, or lightheadedness to come forward and discuss this with their doctor. Of course, there are lots of different causes of these symptoms and investigation/management will be decided on a case-by-case basis agreed between the patient and their clinician”.

“In particular, people experiencing exercise-induced syncope (fainting/loss of consciousness), exercise-induced seizures, or those with a family history of sudden death should discuss this with their Doctor since this would most likely require further investigation/management”.

"Screening athletes prior to competition for unrecognised heart conditions has been proposed. However, there is much disagreement regarding the benefits vs harms of such screening programmes amongst experts and international recommendations vary. (Harms resulting from false-positive screening results, leading to athletes’ disqualification from competitive sports, psychological and financial harm and the resulting medical follow-up with unknown benefit). With current evidence, [more information on that here or here] there is no such screening programme in the UK."




Interview with Lennard Zinn, co-author of The Haywire Heart.

I also got in touch with Lennard Zinn, a former U.S. national cycling team rider and technical writer at VeloNews, who, after suffering a huge arrhythmia and tachycardia (a very high heart rate that won't come down) while training in 2013, co-authored the book The Haywire Heart about the risks of extreme endurance training.

There is plenty of "anecdata" of athletes dying suddenly from cardiac arrest, plus good evidence of arrhythmia and fibrosis [scarring of the heart] in athletes, particularly veteran athletes. Why do you think that doesn't show up in all-cause mortality studies like the Tour de France study we mentioned or the ones on mortality among participants in Vasaloppet? Is it just outweighed by the benefits of exercise and the selection of healthy participants?

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Yes, that’s exactly right—it’s outweighed by the overall benefits of exercise and the selection of healthy participants. Those studies look at mortality and don’t drill down into actual causes. And on the subject of overall mortality, I suspect that the chances of finding any significant numbers of smokers among them is vanishingly small, thus cutting mortality significantly right there. Same goes for obesity, another big risk factor for mortality. I also suspect that they are statistically less likely to drink and drive than the average population, although that is going further out on the limb of conjecture, and I suppose that is less of an issue in Scandinavia, and perhaps in France, than it is in the USA.

Do you think there should be more emphasis on the risk of reduced quality of life as a result of heart problems caused by overtraining, as opposed to the risk of premature death?


Yes. The caveat is that saying that requires a value judgment to say that being able to ride or run up a long hill faster than athletes 20 years one’s junior or to compete in dozens of races/year is a higher quality of life than walking for an hour a day. I personally had to give up a lot after developing an arrhythmia—namely hard training, racing, the camaraderie found in those things, the satisfaction of outriding other people, and the competitive reaction in general. On the other hand, I enjoy my life immensely, and, now that I have become accustomed to it and could care less if other people pass me on a bike or on foot, I would not want to go back to that lifestyle I had. I do miss the travel, the friendships, and the burn feeling; I don’t miss the compulsion.

What would the stereotypical patient/athlete most at risk of these heart problems look like? It seems to mostly affect male athletes, some studies suggest taller athletes are at greater risk, perhaps someone overtraining into their fifties. And what about caffeine - is that a problem?


I think the link to caffeine is under question. The rest of those, yes. I think taking into account work and family commitments in that list is overlooked, too. People in this category tend to be successful, which is why they have the time and resources to train and race so much, which means they probably also work a lot, and combining lots of work with lots of racing and training tends to also accompany being stretched thin when it comes to family, too.

I think the overtraining, and under-resting is particularly an issue for people who were already competing at endurance sports in their 20s and 30s—I know of very few in this group who recognize(d) how much less they could (safely) train and how much more they should rest once in their 50s. I think it is endemic in this group to want to do close to what they used to do in their prime. Certainly, that was the case with me.

What do you think can/should be done to reduce the risk?


Take a deep breath and remember why you started doing the sport in the first place—which in most cases would be for fun. Then notice whether what you are doing is bringing you joy or not. And realize nobody other than the people you race with care one iota about what your placings are in masters races.

Recognize that just taking a walk with your spouse or your dog can bring great satisfaction for yourself as well as for them and is not necessarily a downgrade from pushing yourself as hard as you can up a big climb or through an interval session.



Key Points

• Excercise is good for you! Multiple studies show a variety of benefits to exercise, including a longer life.

• One study suggests there could be an optimum amount of exercise for longevity. On average. those training extremely hard (more than 12.5 hours of vigorous exercise equivalent per week) had a slightly higher mortality risk than those training slightly less (4-12.5 hours of vigorous exercise per week), but still had a lower risk than those doing too little exercise.

• French Tour De France competitors were significantly less likely to die young than their counterparts in the general population.

• Large studies into endurance cross-country ski racers show a short-term increased risk of cardiac arrest and sudden cardiac death during the event, but this is far outweighed in the longer term when it comes to the overall risk of premature death.

• Athletes are more likely to develop an irregular heart rhythm (arrhythmia) and other heart abnormalities, but this too seems to be outweighed in terms of overall risk.

• Although the average risk of cardiac death in athletes is low (between 1 in 50,000 and 1 in 80,000 per year), evidence suggests the risk is higher for those who are male, tall or black, and the most important risk factor is a genetic condition called Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM). HCM is the commonest underlying cause of sudden cardiac death.

• Anyone with a family history of cardiac arrest, or those experiencing palpitations, lightheadedness, faints, chest pain, shortness of breath, or passing out during exercise should consult their doctor. They might suggest checking for HCM and those diagnosed with the condition are often advised to avoid intense exercise.




Author Info:
seb-stott avatar

Member since Dec 29, 2014
305 articles

718 Comments
  • 208 5
 Comments section is about to be an absolute dumpster fire.
  • 71 10
 Jabbed dumpster fired Wink
  • 172 266
flag RedBurn (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:15) (Below Threshold)
 @mxmtb: i will probably get banned if i say that vaccines were never about health, its about control ! They dont even work! lol Stay unjabbed!
  • 74 14
 Bla bla bla... Do your own research... Bla bla bla insert your non peer reviewed research article>
  • 54 60
flag Peskycoots (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:22) (Below Threshold)
 @RedBurn: and yet here you are still spouting bullshit so I guess it didn’t work? Well done you?
  • 17 6
 The Jab race is about to heat up like shimano and sram, slam as many in theeere !!!
  • 52 26
 @RedBurn: so true! I heard it on the Joe Rogan podcast. It’s a conspiracy! Now go to the hospital and start licking door knobs and see what happens!
  • 79 95
flag Pinemtn (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:03) (Below Threshold)
 @derekr: if athletes are jabbed then yes, they have a much greater likelihood of “dying suddenly“ also in the article where they died suddenly, you’ll see that scientist were “baffled “
  • 67 95
flag jclnv (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:19) (Below Threshold)
 @derekr: The irony of your comment is comedic.

Children are currently dying in excess numbers from influenza, RSV etc due to low exposure to bacteria and constant use of toxic hand sanitizers during the Covid insanity period.
  • 39 7
 A little too late! The age of Died Suddenly is upon us!
  • 34 2
 @jclnv:

Those are both viruses, FYI. You’re ready for your own podcast!
  • 56 42
 'You agreed to be vaccinated. Any ramifications are on you.' Thanks for Playing!
  • 67 40
 remember guys - sAfE aNd EffEcTivE...
  • 60 23
 @mattmach7: I only agreed because I could have lost my job. Instead I got to keep my job but ended up with blood clots in my leg and lungs, and blood thinners for 5 months to correct the problem.
  • 56 68
flag irafd (Dec 20, 2022 at 11:23) (Below Threshold)
 @mobiller: i know at least five people (off top of my head) who had very serious side health issues (including blood clots and cancer) immediately or soon after getting vaccinated. are you suggesting i happen to know those very unlucky 5 in 2.5 million people? i find that very hard to believe
  • 39 13
 Why does the conversation even need to devolve like this? The article is about heart problems brought on by extreme fitness, people!!
  • 5 1
 @jclnv: Im not sure there’s causality or even correlation in what you said but I will add that I know more than one medical professional (all vaccinated) who wouldn’t use hand sanitizer when asked but would willingly wash their hands properly with soap and water.
  • 39 27
 @Local717: Everyone got the same treatment - same at my job, they came and told me I have 1 option or I can pack my shit....my response was GTFO....2 yrs later I am still here and they all look like bunch of $%* (3 people in my the office so far on long term leave with heart problems).
  • 46 40
 Medical pathologists from Heidelberg University Hospital in Heidelberg, Germany have published direct evidence showing how people found dead after mRNA vaccination died. As this team of six scientists explore in their study, these mRNA-vaccinated patients suffered from heart damage because their hearts were attacked by their own immune cells. This autoimmune attack on their own heart cells then leads to their damaged hearts beating so many times per second that, once the tachycardia unexpectedly started, they died in minutes.

www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/people-died-mrna-vaccine-damaged-hearts-new-peer-reviewed-german-study-provides-direct
  • 49 20
 @Local717: I ended up in the hospital after my 2nd Pfizer shot with a blood clot in my heart. Only got the vaccine against my better judgment for the same reason you did. When I tell people, they still don't believe me like I'm speading misinformation about the vaccine. So frustrating!
  • 32 16
 @mobiller: According to your data, I must be one of 2 in million then. Pfizer shot landed me in the hospital for 3 days with a blood clot in my heart after the booster...
  • 7 5
 You only got so many pumps….make ‘em count lol
  • 23 13
 @mattmach7: I know a couple people, including my brother where their jobs tried to get everyone vaxxed. He just told the company they already don't have enough staff and would gladly leave if it came down to it. Suddenly the company didn't feel their mandate was as important as before lol. Not saying the vax is bad in anyway, just that it has to be a personal choice.
  • 2 5
 @zabala: or the peer reviewed on lol
  • 7 11
flag YTB (Dec 20, 2022 at 14:25) (Below Threshold)
 @mattmach7: well played
  • 6 8
 @YYCJLD: What happens to the immune response if exposure to seasonal viruses is reduced via NPI's?
  • 5 0
 As they say, “if you took the vax, just relax.” Also in the comments.
  • 24 15
 @mobiller: so you are just adding the risk of blood clot from vacc, as it does not prevent covid
  • 2 3
 @rubberbutter: Well yes, because if you do anything too strenuous, you'll have a heart attack.
  • 4 4
 @robomatic: it seems like it’s devolving, because you’re ignorant to the larger scope of the conversation apparently. It’s actually a substantive discourse.
  • 2 0
 @derekr: at first I missed the word door in your comment
  • 2 6
flag sancho-ramerez (Dec 20, 2022 at 16:24) (Below Threshold)
 @nikos7: up vote for ZH post
  • 12 10
 @nikos7: ZeroHedge is basically apocalypse porn and right wing conspiracy theories. They received funding and content from Kremlin propaganda outlets.
  • 49 20
 How horrible does a product have to be where you have to be enticed with free donuts, lottery tickets or hamburgers for something that was free (nothng is free) in the first place. There are still commercials every 5 min on the radio to this day paid by our tax dollars.
Then, when people said "no thanks", you were discriminated against, you were in danger of losing your career, and friends and family members would not allow you at thier holiday table.
If the product did what it was intended to do and the government and media didn't lie to you then maybe more people would have taken it. But, we knew something didn't add up and the pressure to get it was too much. Now more and more evidence is coming to light and those of us that resisted should be proud.
  • 36 37
 @mikeyb76: The downvotes continue to roll in from people who are afraid to admit they were duped. Even with all the data in the world staring them in the face. I got vaxxed and wish I hadn’t. No side effects or anything but I was definitely sold a bill of goods that wasn’t actually delivered. I’m also sick of seeing/hearing ads to get boosted when the vast majority of people wrote the vaccine off long ago. Even the die-hard Fauci worshippers I know haven’t had anything past a 3rd dose. It’s crazy that the usual “benefit must outweigh the risk” litmus test somehow was thrown out the window with the Covid shot. Fortunately, a growing number of people have tried their hand at actual science by questioning instead of blindly following the advice of an old fool whose pockets were lined by drug companies.
  • 42 40
 @gnarlysipes: The moment these things were mandated, I knew something was wrong. I am an emt firefighter and was on the front lines the whole time. I went to work and put myself and my family at risk because I took an oath to protect the public. I was offered the shot early on, however, had questions about it being rushed to market and still being experimental. Then when we went from being heroes to being on the chopping block for refusing an experimental, dna altering product - that really confirmed my suspician that this thing was not in our best interest. The thing that really bothers me is how so many health care professionals forgot the hippocratic oath - for my entire career, we treat everybody the same - even when people choose to do heroin or fentanyl and overdose, we still revive them. Now, unvaccinated people are being denied life-saving treatments because they don't want this mrna crap. Mind boggling.
  • 25 26
 @Pinemtn: it's been happening so much since the clotshot was forced on everyone, yet we all keep pretending otherwise
  • 8 11
 @gnarlysipes: hand sanitizer fcuks with our biofilm.
  • 21 22
 @mikeyb76: I'm glad I haven't got it BUT pride can be a dangerous thing. Let's not look down on our jabbed brothers and sisters. They're looking at serious future complications and I feel bad for them.
  • 24 7
 @mikeyb76: the entire idea of a mandate was a "conspiracy" at first too. Likewise the idea of having to show proof with the vaccine passport. Lots of conspiracies sure seemed to play out since 2020.
  • 4 8
flag robomatic (Dec 20, 2022 at 22:35) (Below Threshold)
 @Pinemtn: My friend, I think we're misunderstanding one another. I use devolve in two ways, firstly that it's sidetracking from the main premise of the article, but more importantly that the manner in which the dialogue is happening is rather low-value. Using Paul Graham's hierarchy of disagreement (www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html):

DH0: and yet here you are still spouting bullshit so I guess it didn’t work? Well done you?
DH1:  remember guys - sAfE aNd EffEcTivE...
DH1: so true! I heard it on the Joe Rogan podcast. It’s a conspiracy! Now go to the hospital and start licking door knobs and see what happens!

Granted, upon re-reading there were some more effective counterpoints:

DH4: I only agreed because I could have lost my job. Instead I got to keep my job but ended up with blood clots in my leg and lungs, and blood thinners for 5 months to correct the problem.
DH5: Bummer that's bad luck. But still, odds are 2 in a million on blood clots with a jab. While risk with Covid of blood clots is 22 times higher.
www.aarp.org/health/drugs-supplements/info-2020/covid-vaccine-myths.html?cmp=KNC-DSO-HEALTH-Health_COVID-NonBrand-Phrase-36909-GOOG-COVID-DrugsSupplement-VaccineMyths-COVID-Phrase-NonBrand&gclid=Cj0KCQiA14WdBhD8ARIsANao07igcg4k9IbaNln4ab1umJ4dU8EJUXSBxUw4hn4pL3y-iiUgtyMbBS8aArUMEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

So I agree with you that it didn't completely devolve to a pile of crap by the time I commented, the ratio of constructiveness and collaboration-to-namecalling is lacking imo. Also, my first point about it sidetracking from the primary premise of the article still stands.
  • 8 5
 @YYCJLD: Good job picking at straws. He never said RSV and influenza are bacteria. He said that due to low exposure to bacteria, chlidren are more prone to RSV and influenza, which is totally correct. Childrens exposure to various bacteria is important as it helps them develop healthy gut flora and biofilm that are key elements of our immune systems.
  • 5 0
 @Bushmaster123: Show us some proof!
  • 5 9
flag sancho-ramerez (Dec 21, 2022 at 7:18) (Below Threshold)
 @NorthYorkWhale:
I'm not saying it isn't but anyone who posts a link to ZH on Pinkbike deserves an up vote on principal alone
  • 11 7
 @irafd: ppl too scared to actually look into this shit. I did, took the last year to research wtf they gave us. It was Gene therapy, mrna pioneer Robert Malone took it and it nearly killed him. But he knows what's up and he still did it so that made me feel OK. The adverse affects were due to spike load in the vaccine. Each lab was making it different with no final checks prior to handing it out. Some people got a super high dose of the shit. Some people got less. I had heart issues straight after, pretty much every guy I know had some weird heart shit happen after that shot. Our Health is all we have.
  • 5 5
 Got 3 hours. Watch this. No quackery or similar. No tin hats. Scientists and Dr's.

rumble.com/v1ze4d0-covid-19-vaccines-what-they-are-how-they-work-and-possible-causes-of-injuri.html
  • 14 16
 @solf: sorry it happened to you, but someone has to be held accountable.

i didn't take that shit, and did end up getting covid - turned out to be a feverless sniffle that lasted 48 hours. people i know got covid after getting the shot, and all of them experienced worse symptoms than me.

a close friend of mine is an ER doctor, and she only took the shot because she was forced to. she blames the shot for all the complications she had right after it, and i think it's pretty reasonable to say a doctor knows what they're talking about.

my mom's coworker, a doctor (my mom is a nurse), admitted to her that she signed off on one death certificate with cause of death listed as vaccine complication - she had so many problems at work because of it so she knew never to do it again.

my father in law laughed at us crazy conspiracy theorists and ended up in hospital after getting his first booster - needless to say he never got boosted again.

now people will say all this is conscious bias, but based on numbers @mobillier posted above, statistically i shouldn't know that many people who experienced serious side effects - for those who are questioning my math, lets put it this way:

1. let's say i know 1000 people (people i know well enough to even find out if they had any serious side effects)
2. let's say 80% of them got jabbed, so 800 people
3. 1 person in 500k people experiences serious side effects

based on this the chance of experience serious side effects is 5 in 800, instead of 5 in 2.5 million - which makes it 3125 times more likely to happen than the source referenced above states.

so someone please explain to me the difference, or do i really know so many unlucky people...
  • 4 4
 @Bushmaster123: I'll take that to confirm you don't have any. Cool anecdotal story with notes cribbed from online conspiracists, bro.
  • 6 6
 @irafd: Sounds to me like you spend a lot of time in the company of people who have the same ideas as you do. That's the definition of confirmation bias.
  • 6 5
 @skywalkdontrun: so it's because what they're THINKING is why they had OBSERVABLE side effects from vaccine?

even my father in law who laughed off everything i told him and called me a flat earther? i remember him joking about vaccines and saying he never got any signal from bill gates after first two doses, but he didn't laugh after his booster.

just fyi - only 1 out of 5 people who had serious side effects didn't want the shot but did it because of work... so much for confirmation bias
  • 1 4
 @Bushmaster123: the guy just wants you to share your medical record with everybody here, how could you have a problem with that...
  • 2 11
flag Peskycoots (Dec 21, 2022 at 10:57) (Below Threshold)
 @irafd: have you ever stopped to consider why that it’s mainly white American males that are so hysterical about the Covid vaccine?
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 @Peskycoots: Vaccination rates among black and Hispanic Americans is far far lower than among their white counterparts. Not that knowing this would stop types like yourself trying to conflate anything and everything to score internet points.
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 @Peskycoots: yes - white males are smarter and braver group than any other demographic. i'm not counting you in, clearly.

and no, not hysterical, only cautious and skeptical, and so far vaccine skeptics have been right. when are you going to admit what every health authority is admitting now - vaccines are, at best, useless
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 @irafd: the mask slipped lad
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 @sonuvagun: there is another 194 countries to consider eh?
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 @Peskycoots: are white american males skewing statistics in every country on earth? or whatever implying...

either way, you took the easy way out - you lined up for the jab to be left alone and now you're bitter that other people had spine to say no. my wife was offered $500 per dose at her work - and she told them she'd pay them that much just to f*ck off and leave her alone
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 @Peskycoots: You had remarked about "white American males" being all up-in-arms about being vaccinated and ignored the fact they are proportionally much more vaccinated than other groups in the same place. Someone picked up on it, so what do you do? Well try to further conflate your bullshit with another 194 countries. This is what feckless twits like you do. You just go about making snide comments at people who don't think politicians and big pharma are on their side. And for what? It has no effect on you so why go to efforts to be a proper cnut about it? It's a rhetorical question, it's because you're nothing but a cnut.
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 @Peskycoots: last I saw, whites and Asians in the US had the highest vaccine uptake level. We had a problem with many African Americans who were hesitant to get vaccinated. And who could blame them. These same companies and the US government have done sketchy shit to their communities. We had outreach programs specifically trying to get them to take the vax.
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 @sonuvagun: I’m picking on you as the other two comments were, believe it or not, even less sensical than yours but what you do have in common is not answering the question
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 @Peskycoots: You're not owed answers when you can't even come up with good questions.
Stop it. You're done. You tried to play the "I'm a clever cat" game and suck at it. Go away.
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 @mobiller: give it a rest. Barely anyone under the age of 50 gets really sick with covid. That's why countries like Denmark are stopping vaccinations in everyone under 50 and all the scando countries stopped mrna vax for men under 30 a long time ago.
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 @sonuvagun: ahahha you mean questions like why are white American males so into Covid conspiracies?
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 @Peskycoots: i already answered that question, but you didn't like my answer.

why are only soy boys like yourself into getting jabbed? actually, nm, no need to answer that... obedient bitch
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 @Peskycoots: I'm surprised you could see through your blindfold.
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 @mikeyb76: down voted by blind, ignorant idiots.
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 @Peskycoots: because e-bikes obviously!
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 @zabala: rumble.com/v1ze4d0-covid-19-vaccines-what-they-are-how-they-work-and-possible-causes-of-injuri.html

Here's the non peer reviewed article. Has Robert Malone who is a mrna pioneer explaining how it works.
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 @jclnv: children are dying from viruses because of lack of exposure to bacteria? Where did you get this beauty of a hypothesis?
One things clear, more people in this thread (and in the general public) should've taken more science and statistics classes before becoming the experts they think they are.
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 @irafd: ahahaha you’ve got all the boxes ticked there lad, the absolute epitome of swivel eyed loon. I’ll help you out, you believe in conspiracy theories for the same reason you buy xxl pickup trucks and wacky big guns with bits all over them: to understand the world around us, to feel secure and in control, and to maintain a positive self-image.
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 @Peskycoots: What conspiracy? That it doesn't prevent or protect against transmission? That conspiracy? Oh, well played Lord c*nthead, well played.
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 @sonuvagun: sure man if you like, I can only imagine the long list of crazy shit you believe in to pick from
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 @Peskycoots: So essentially you believe in shit you imagine & call other people crazy. God damn you for being so arrogant yet stupid.
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 @sonuvagun: look I’m as happy as the next man to have a tear up in the comments but if you can’t get each one of your comments to make sense on its own let alone as a thread then we’re not going anywhere are we? Pin down what you’re trying to tell me so I can focus in on your particular brand of insecurity
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 @Peskycoots: This isn't a tear up, it's you getting your ass kicked and too ignorant to know any better. Run along, son. Run along.
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 @sonuvagun: ahahaha still unable to string together a coherent response, I checked your comments to see what you actually believe in but other than hiding behind an alt account nothing was super clear. It appears you’re a young bored lonely ignored young man desperate to be noticed and somehow you’ve worked out, with a handful of internet friends, that “they” are trying to control you but ”they” hadn’t counted on how brave strong and smart you are and so you’ve managed to outmanoeuvre “them” and their vaccine with which they were going to make you drink soya milk and give up your guns and truck and become a lesbian Muslim. Have you ever considered you might be in fact living a lie sold to you by people that make money off your stupidity?
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 @Peskycoots: You haven't been able to write anything intelligent yet, so why should you start now? You made the effort to go through my past comments but figure on me being young, bored, and lonely. Man, there's stupid and then there's hopeless, and you've got both of those locked down.
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 @sonuvagun: I see you don’t disagree
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 Sometimes I am sad the mtb world is so un-enlightened.
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 @Peskycoots: if you only knew how blind you are... EVERYTHING you assume about me is wrong - that i'm an american male is public information, and that i'm white... oh well, mountain biking is a white sport after all.

you hate us because we have common sense, we have spine and we have principles. you hate that we had the courage to say no, even when it was much more convenient to say no. you hate that we were rational enough to weigh risk vs benefit, and not act like you - scared shit who would still take a booster even if you had complications with the previous dose.

you hate trucks because you can't have one. you envy us that we can have vehicles that fit our families comfortably and all the stuff and take us anywhere, on or off road. you, on the other hand, probably don't even own a car, and you most likely bike to work. your problem is that you're too stupid to realize that the united states are not f*cking london (thank god).

your lifestyle doesn't work for us. it never will. we like freedom. we don't like to be treated like children. we don't like being mocked and ridiculed for having common sense. and we don't like losers like yourself telling us how to live our lives
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 @irafd: “EVERYTHING you assume about me is wrong” - proceeds to confirm everything I said hahaha! All the worlds governments, scientists, civil servants and associated workers and their friends and family’s have not all got together and conspired to control you, billy bob no mates in the middle of nowhere, you’re just not that special I’m afraid. If you’d have thought about it, why would they when they have you fully under control anyway? You’re in debt up to your eyeballs leasing shit off people that have stolen your sense of self worth and are selling it back to you one monthly payment at a time. No sick days, no holidays, no healthcare, just this lingering fear of The Others that you anaesthetise with your credit card.
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 @Peskycoots: as i already said, yes, EVERYTHING you assume about me is wrong:

1) muslim (yes, a white american male can be a muslim), so don't you ever dare to use that talking point when talking to me
2) i lived in europe most of my life, and i'm a EU citizen - no way in hell i would ever go back there, in any of those utopias of socialism
3) college educated, software engineer, making more than you ever will in your miserable life
4) 0 credit card debt (yes, 0)
5) no pickup truck, though my wife does have a bigger suv
6) no guns, but i don't mind law abiding citizens have them and carry them
7) all benefits for the entire family - medical, dental, vision. company i work for pays over $30k a year just for our medical and pays for a portion of our medical bills
Cool generous retirement plan from said company
9) individual monthly contributions to my retirement plan are more than what most people in UK net
10) over 30 work days off a year, sick time, personal time, sabbatical, you name it
11) flexible schedule, every year spend a month traveling across europe
12) my wife took years off work because we have small kids, and we don't need her to work. and if she did work, she'd still be making more than you do
13) very conservative financially, hate bad debt
14) enough cash to pay for our new house and new car in entirety, and still have more than enough cash for emergency, but rather waiting for the housing crash to buy some rental properties
15) lived and worked in a big city, and never want to go back anywhere near that shithole. living in suburbs

with all that out of the way, let me try and do the same for you:
1) don't own car
2) bike to work
3) maybe college educated, but most likely some social studies, environment or something just as useless
4) wearing your jacket in your sub-60 m2 flat because you can't afford heating
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 @irafd: imagine if any single one of those bullet points were true how happy you’d be instead of in here wearing your insecurity like a badge of pride
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 @Peskycoots: well, i can prove it, but what's the point - you don't believe the vaccine is useless even after more people got covid after getting the jab. i'd bet you got jabbed and then still got covid Big Grin

as i said, my covid was two days of sniffle with no fever - but then again, i'm not vaxxed and i'm no mangina like you are.

you never said if i got anything right about you, so i'd say i was on 4/4 on you.
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 @irafd: I couldn't care less whether or not you get a vaccine.

What I hate from the anti-vax crowd is the sanctimonious, self-righteous, "I know better than you" attitude. They're worse than vegans and crossfitters.

I hate that they stood around hospitals, yelling and protesting while doctors and nurses were getting overwhelmed. I hate that they march around our cities, blocking traffic, telling everyone that they're sheep and somehow their decision to get the vaccine wasn't as informed, rational or thought out as their decision not to. Someone's choice to get vaccinated does not invalidate their decision making process because it doesn't line up with yours. Just because it was mandated and people chose to get it, doesn't mean that decision was made lightly or blindly.

I hate that the anti-vax crowd complains and protests how much harder their life has become, then proceeds to protest, block traffic, borders, neighbourhoods, hospitals, etc, carrying misspelled signs, yelling at people who disagree, calling them names, as if Joe Blow driving around downtown Calgary is the one making his life harder. "Freedom protests" aren't influencing the folks that disagree with you. Just pissing them off.

I don't love how our government responded to Covid, but I'm also not sure what I would have done if I was in their place. I DO know that all of my friends and family in healthcare were getting crushed during each wave. I don't love mandates, but understand the response. My ex is an ICU nurse and the overwhelming majority of Covid cases she has dealt with are unvaxxed. I'm not claiming it's science or stats, but her direct experience from one of the largest trauma centers in western Canada.

I don't hate people who've chosen not to get the vaccine. I have lots of friends who chose not to and guess what? We're still friends. The choice to get vaccinated or not hasn't impacted our relationship and nor should it.
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 @jsnfschr: You have friends who are unvaccinated and you support mandated vaccines? What a great friend you must be

I also know nurses who worked during the pandemic. They have all said that regardless of vaccination status the people who died were either morbidly obese with hypertension or at or beyond the average age of death. This is reflected in the data, the average age of death in the UK is 80, people who died from (not with) Covid 19 were 82. You actually live longer if you died from C19! Also it’s estimated that in BC alone, 8000 nurses quit or took early retirement rather than take these “vaccines”. If you want to complain about hospitals being overwhelmed, you might want to blame the mandates rather than the pandemic numbers, because they were no higher than a normal influenza season.
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 @irafd: I knew you were young but as you’ve typed out more I’ve realised that you are in fact a schoolboy still. Look lad as you grow you will realise that all that conspiracy shit is going to make you scared and angry and alone so do future you a favour and tap out now while a couple of your friends still talk to you.
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 @jsnfschr: same way here - get vaxxed or don't. your choice. if you made that choice because you gave it enough thought and decided willingly to do it, you did the risk/benefit analysis, i'm fine with that.

but you can't say that people 'chose' to get vaccinated when they were threatened to lose their job, not to be able to travel, get medical treatments or live their lives as usual if they didn't get vaccinated. huge difference.

people started getting out in the streets because their rights were getting completely taken away. the freedom convoy was way overdue. there were many more 'protesters' for blm over last couple of years, that killed dozens of people, but somehow those protests were encouraged... it makes you think what kind of protest it really is when it's promoted by the govt... hmmm

and people skeptical about the vaccine are sanctimonious, really? vax pushers told us we're killing people by not taking the jab, that we should do it for others, that we're uneducated flat earth morons and hicks. every f*cking celebrity was giving medical advice, but somehow when somebody says - hey, i was fine with covid, nothing happened - that's dangerous and should be censored. nothing sanctimonious about saying do wtf you want, just don't push it on me
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 @Peskycoots: still not gonna refute anything i said? funny, i recall you calling us out for not answering any of the questions...
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 @jclnv: Where did I say I support mandated vaccines? I said I don't love it, but I understand it.

Also, this whole "everything is either black or white" kind of argument is a bunch of juvenile garbage. The fact of the matter is, people can disagree on things and still be friends. The government's decision to mandate something or not has absolutely zero bearing on my relationship with friends or family.
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 @irafd: happy to answer any questions you have fruit
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 @jsnfschr: When it comes to experimental medical procedures being mandated to keep a job or kids wearing masks (when it was widely known it would impact learning) if friends support that draconian garbage they can quite frankly f*ck right off.

It was clear in mid to late 2020 to anyone with half a brain that the virus wasn’t nowhere near as deadly as we were led to believe. The emergency extra buildings and tents various governments built were completely empty. To then require people to take a vaccine that required an EUA was nowhere near worth the risk and I have little tolerance for any fear-driven idiot who went along with it all.
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 @Peskycoots: is any of my four assumptions i posted above true? elaborate please
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 @skywalkdontrun: what's the definition of conspiracy. 2 or more people making a plan. Sounds like that's what happened. But you have your buzz word. where you learn that. Is it confirmation bias from the only news you watch!
Was the term used to discredit people and there info. Did come from the Kennedy assasination. Has it been confirmed with the recent release of the JFK documents that the coroner reported more than one type of bullet wound with more than one entry and exit. Keep watching sports bro you're so informed. Actually you are the ideal sheep for the fourth Industrial revolution. They love you keep defending the people who want to keep you sick poor and stupid. Good job. You're part of the group. Milgram experiment. Would have failed that on for sure
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 @jclnv: 9 out of 10 people who died in the UK this past year were 3x vaccinated. It's not a vaccine by definition it is an experimental gene therapy that they have tried an animals and when the animals are exposed to the virus that they were treated with this therapy to be immune to they died almost instantly it destroys your white blood cell count it destroys your immunity it makes you susceptible to every other disease
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 @irafd: Weoponized empathy
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 @fotop: Sir, meth is bad for you.
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 @ashlemon: Wow. Incredibly convincing. I'm reconsidering everything I've ever thought, learned, and experienced. Currently quitting my job, leaving my family, and selling all my worldly possessions to live in a bunker and await the coming of the sky god Xanthalus.
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 @skywalkdontrun: maybe you should reconsider why you think injecting synthetic chemicals into your body is going to make you healthier I don't know about all the other BS if you're looking for a higher power it's called Jesus get right with him he'll keep the bullshit out of your brain
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 @skywalkdontrun: The study is from the Cleveland Clinic. The data speaks for itself. Your reaction to it is your business.
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 @fotop: The fact that this type of content is now making it onto YouTube indicates to me that the dam is about to burst...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqSSLZ34Qwk
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 @irafd: wait, on a bike website, in an article about heart health, in comment thread about Covid, you want answers to whether I:

“1) don't own car
2) bike to work
3) maybe college educated, but most likely some social studies, environment or something just as useless
4) wearing your jacket in your sub-60 m2 flat because you can't afford heating”

I’m fascinated by your though train but here you go:
1) yes a big one and a little one
2) definitely would if I could
3) been back a couple of times to up skill as they call it so a qualified yes I guess?
4) oh dear no
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 @fotop: Sorry, I've never heard of this "Jesus" guy. Is he new? Does he have a TikTok? Xanthalus the sky god is my overlord.
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 @skywalkdontrun: got room for a second person? I'll bring some bikes
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 @fotop: dude you may be wrong, you may be right, but you are incoherent and not at all gifted at writing. Please stop.
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 @sonuvagun: Xanthalus has no love for incoherence. Along with sensible footwear, balanced breakfasts, and regular human sacrifice, THEY DEMAND proper grammar in their apostles' rantings.
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 @Peskycoots: we were talking about covid, and of course whenever somebody says vaccines are bullshit, people like you will respond to that that we're hicks, but you went so far out, and was wrong on everything you assumed about me. don't act surprised now that i assumed a few things about you.

either way, i'll believe everything you said, even though it's hard after seeing your bike hanging off your kitchen wall
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 @RedBurn: you’re dumb.
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 @mattmach7: you agreed to not get vaccinated so any ramifications are on you and all those you infected and potentially killed. Blood on your hands. Ha! Thanks for playing.
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 @sancho-ramerez: touche hahahahahahaaaaa!!!!
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 @irafd: Xanthalus hangs his bike on your mom's kitchen wall.
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 @skywalkdontrun: i genuinely feel sorry for you.

to think that what you just said could be funny, or witty or insulting to anybody... that's just sad, don't even wanna embarrass you more than you embarrassed yourself so far.

i actually upvoted this just because no one else will, not even your mom.
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 @irafd: Oh don't worry about me, I'm just fine, but thanks for the concern. In fact, I'm so touched, I'd like to send you a fruit basket as a sincere token of my thanks. Would you like to send me your address? Or should I leave it with Xanthalus so he can give it to your mom the next time he invades her dreamscape?
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 @ashlemon: yeh, that's sad af hey. Ppl too scared to know.
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 @solf: The real epidemic is cowardice. Sad as f*ck.
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 @skywalkdontrun: there's no shame in quitting while you're still ahead - and by that i mean while everybody still feels sorry for you.

we see you're trying really hard, but you're not smart or funny. you'll never get anything but pity from me
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 @irafd: Oh thank god for your pity, it's all I wanted from you from the start. I'm so dead inside, and now that you've shone the light of your superior intellect and unassailable masculinity down on me can we be best friends? We could move in together and share our outfits and come up with hilarious catchphrases for when we mistakingly wear each other's underwear like "oh that's soooo like us!" Oh gosh I can't wait. May Xanthalus bless our union!
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 And I just came down here to say RIP McGarry
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 @ashlemon: Yes, many people are saying this in exactly the same way you are saying it. Well, not exactly the same way, but very similar! Well, using different words, but similar meanings! I mean, instead of "epidemic" they say "pandemic" and instead of "cowardice" they say "Covid-19," but the sad as f*ck part is right on! Truly you are a guiding light in this time of darkness.
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 @ashlemon: I did it. Got tricked. A lot of us feel like that.
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 @solf: I too was tricked. So many times. I was tricked into believing that they were for kids. I knew they were for rabbits as well, but they kept saying they were only for kids. I should have known better. I'm prepared now. Will not get tricked again.
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 @solf: Sorry to hear bud. You are not your body and there is no death - know it.

On a hopeful note.. www.bitchute.com/video/bXAF5bOdilph

If I were in your position I would get some sodium chlorite aka MMS and do the 21 day "protocol 1000", as well as supplement with NAC and/or glutathione.

www.bitchute.com/video/kzbpoh3YTc0Z
www.theuniversalantidote.com
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 @skywalkdontrun: yeh good on you man. I'd like to see you in front of me saying that like a ass.
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 @ashlemon: cheers. I'll look into that. Thanks.
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 @irafd: ah well that’s more a quirk of the Victorian housing we have in central london, although the overall floor space can be large all the floors are divided up into much smaller rooms. In that photo that’s actually the dining room and the bike is hang there through choice rather than lack of space, much to my wife’s chagrin, IT IS ART I TELL YOU haha
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 @solf: I will say it to your front,
I will say it nice and blunt,
I will say it with some sass,
I will say it like an ass,
you sir are an imbecile,
that will do it, yes it will.
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 @skywalkdontrun: it's funny to me though it is sad that in all the responses and yes they were many I received not a single negative response tried to counter anything I said with anything that resembled a fact nor did they try to challenge anything I said the only response these Geniuses have is that I'm unintelligent and I use improper grammar even though the person who told me I was "too unintelligent" used improper grammar and sentence construction while trying to insult me. It's one of the most childish things I've ever seen but it doesn't surprise me if you guys sat in class during school when one can't debate someone with facts or arguments they resort to Petty and salts that have no substance at all don't focus on the facts focus on how my voice text translates the word Laurette. I should have said Lorax cuz I thought that was pretty funny but again focus on how voice text translates words and the improper spelling and my lack of intelligence I would love to see any of you on the mountain and make you feel even dumber than you do right now
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 @fotop: But don't you remember that time when you showed up for the ride, and you were all excited to show off your bigboy bike but you had forgotten to use the potty before you left the house and so you had a big accident in your pants and everyone laughed at you and you cried and cried and cried? I don't want that to happen to you again.
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 @Peskycoots: i'm genuinely glad that's the case, i wouldn't want any fellow human to live in a space smaller than my garage extension.

all jokes aside, i hate that you brought me down to the level where i made fun of you for not being as well off financially, but i'll forgive and forget.

hopefully you realized not everybody skeptical of the jab vax ticks off all the negative stereotypes you have of americans
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 @irafd: it’s ok. Moderate to severe incontinence is nothing to be ashamed of. Depends are slim fitting now, no one will know you’re dookieing in your drawers!
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 @skywalkdontrun: I've pretty much been shittin' myself reading all the comments
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 @skywalkdontrun: you must be in your 20s I'm guessing. Grew up behind a screen. Sad.
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 @irafd: you’re a hoot lad. Don’t worry about me I value more than size when it comes to housing, as you get older you’ll realise that access to good schooling, transport, markets and green spaces are way more important, hence the crazy high prices in city’s. I’m not sure what stereotypes you feel you busted but merry Christmas anyway eh
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 @mobiller: That link isn't exactly very scientific. Perhaps you could go to the horses mouth and review the pfizer vaccine trials. For example, the sections that say they have "no data" on whether the vaccines stop the spread of covid (since confirmed in the European Parliament by a Pfizer president - remember when government officials were saying spikes in covid were due to the unvaxxed, they were lying or ignorant of the facts) and also "no data" on whether the vaccines were safe for pregnant women (despite government health authorities recommending them strongly to pregnant women and the subsequent massive rise in miscarriage and still birth rates). How about the claims of the vaccines being safe and effective, with J&J and Moderna being subsequently pulled or limited due to harmful side effects. Oh yeah, remember that "95% effective" thing. That hasn't worked out well. Government agencies had to change how they presented data after the likes of Public Health Scotland www.thenational.scot/news/19931745.covid-data-will-not-published-concerns-misrepresented-anti-vaxxers. Then of course there are the VAERS and V-Safe systems. icandecide.org/v-safe-data www.openvaers.com (Yes, VAERS doesn't prove causation, rather it shows trends, but the Myocarditis and death rates (in a system that is notoriously difficult to report to) speak for themselves. There are loads of studies showing harm too (Did you know that Denmark has stopped giving the covid vaccines to under 50s because the risk from the vaccines is greater than the risk from covid in this cohort?.....
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 @robomatic: Problems which have increased greatly over the last two years. The conversation is warranted
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 @zabala: or insert one of many peer review articles, such as this one that shows no increase in myo/pericarditis in an unvaccinated cohort of 591,000 people: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309
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 @Peskycoots: "merry Christmas"? He's Muslim mate. He'll be enjoying his garage extension rather than celebrating Christmas.
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 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: ahahahhaa, he’s got such an incredibly long list of achievements for a 13 year old I should think he’s earned it
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 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: hahaha, you're quite right.

but it's fine, i've learned that people usually say it just to be friendly, and don't bother correcting them. i'm white and people are shocked when they learn about my background. he doesn't believe a single thing i've said, so there's that too.

anyway, i've found i have more in common with common sense people, whether they're religious christians or any other religion, or not religious at all, than with unhinged left wing lunatics that keep putting us in their mouths and 'championing' for us. it's disgusting.

merry christmas
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 @ColinStarrett: Many of those 'peer reviewed' studies are flawed and aren't even age stratified.

Swiss and Thai studies showed elevated troponin levels in 1/30 for young males. Remember, heart muscle damage is occurring in a demographic (almost everyone) that is at statistically zero risk from the virus.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vveMHtVk_mY
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 @Peskycoots: being jealous of someone half your age because they achieved more in life than you ever will makes you even more of a mangina than getting jabbed every three months to avoid catching a cold
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 @irafd: I’m gonna miss you when the school holidays end
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 @solf: actually I’m eleven! Or maybe I’m 50, it’s hard to know for sure because I’ve never been outside. Can we be friends so you can teach me the masculine ways of the forest? We can build a lean-to deep in the woods and befriend woodland creatures together. We’ll have a raccoon butler named Giorgio and we’ll ride around on a majestic moose named Sir Bubbles, solving mysteries and educating the world about the dangerous microchips Colgate is putting in their toothpaste to get them to eat kale!
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 @irafd: you shouldn’t let people put you in their mouths. For one, that’s just not sanitary, and secondly, if you’re that small, wouldn’t you be afraid of getting swallowed? Don’t worry, I’ll make you a nice little bed in a matchbox with some cotton balls, and give you plenty of clean cedar shavings to rustle around in. I even have a lovely clear ball for you to roll around in while I’m cleaning your cage, just stay away from the stairs, wouldn’t want you riding the basement rodeo to the giant hamster wheel in the sky!
  • 4 5
 @Peskycoots: talking to me because you think i'm a school boy doesn't make you look good... oh well, maybe in london it does
  • 3 5
 @skywalkdontrun: people reading your shit can only feel so much second hand shame, please stop embarrassing yourself
  • 3 1
 @irafd: I’m just amazed that a rodent learned how to type at all. Do you perchance live at a motel and spend your evenings riding around the lobby on a tiny motorcycle?
  • 2 0
 @irafd: how many unshelled peanuts can you fit in your cheek pouches? I’m putting the over/under at 4. Also, what’re your feelings on baths? Are you a “dip your paws daintily in a water dish and groom your whole body” or a “furtively roll in dust” kind of a guy?
  • 2 0
 @irafd: we’re not hysterical about inter generational conversations in the “EU”
  • 5 4
 @Peskycoots: you're not in the EU anymore, you should be glad. but then again, i know you jabbers tend to be self hating globalist slaves so i'm sure you cried your ass off after the referendum.

are you implying i don't know there's no such thing as EU citizenship? ok, i'm a citizen of an EU member state. happy now?

dude, you have way more problems in life than my semantics. you'd be better off cleaning shit off your kitchen walls you brought on your tires
  • 2 3
 @skywalkdontrun: haha. Nice one, solidifying my thoughts there. Don't forget murder hornets though. And I don't need to insult anyone, or patronize anyone. At this point you are just saying nonsicle bs for no real reason I can see. We can go out into the woods for sure though. Anytime.
  • 1 2
 @skywalkdontrun: you have a hamster don't you.
  • 3 4
 @Peskycoots: take a look at MAREKS DISEASE. It's a virus chickens get. They treated it with mrna vaccine, started in the 80s i think. The virus got so bad and still is that an unjabbed chicken dies pretty fast. The gene therapy shots don't allow our immune system to work properly so the virus doesn't work properly, it got worse instead of naturally getting weaker. I took the 1st 2 shots before I felt something wasn't right. Heart issues, and a government that was suppressing medical info and placing their own government science in place. I'm happy and healthy now. Life's good.
  • 2 0
 @solf: Their name is @irafd.
  • 2 0
 @solf: So sorry to hear about your health troubles. I dearly hope that your depression and diarrhea have lessened and that your comb has regained its girth and coloration. May your plumage gleam unruffled through this long night! It’s especially important to remember that chocolate is toxic to Gallus Domesticus, so don’t you go pecking your beak into too many cookies you feathery scamp!
  • 3 1
 @solf: “At this point you are just saying nonsicle bs for no real reason I can see”

You’re so close. It’s as if a single neuron is flashing, a lonely green light, far out across a darkened bay, an orgiastic future that year by year recedes before you. It eluded you today, but that’s no matter. Tomorrow you will run faster, stretch out your arms farther, and one fine morning—
  • 4 2
 @irafd: ah yes the old eu referendum, biggest case of self harm since your mum gave birth to you. Deep down I knew it would be on your conspiracy nut bingo card. Who do you think shot JFK by the way? Just out of curiosity
  • 3 1
 @solf: look I’m sorry kid but I’m really to tied up chatting with the other lad to even begin to wrap my head around the internet jibberish you’re spouting so why don’t you concentrate on deflecting the critical beat downs from @skywalkdontrun and just pretend I don’t know what YouTube is
  • 1 3
 @skywalkdontrun: thanks. My life is good. I'm a happy guy!
  • 1 3
 @Peskycoots: just take a look. You may learn one thing today so That's a good day. I'm out anyway.
  • 4 0
 @solf: yes I learnt that you’re easily swayed by YouTube videos
  • 1 1
 @solf: ah yes, time to return to the roost, tuck your head under your wing and dare to dream dreams of flying more than 13 seconds at a go. Cluck on, brave capon, cluck on.
  • 6 3
 @Peskycoots: really? the biggest case of self harm?

i could name a few actual cases you missed:
1) killing the economy over a f*cking cold
2) importing millions of migrants from the worst shit holes
3) chasing co2 emissions goals that destroy the standard of living

either way, we'll never agree on anything. you live your life, i'll live mine. as long as you're happy with your life, that's all that matters. i won't try to make you open your eyes, because if you're not skeptical of anything by now, you'll never be. i expect the same from you - don't tell me how to live my life. or millions of other americans, or canadians, or anyone else.

nothing worse than a bunch of people who can't even sort their own lives want to change the world
  • 1 0
 @irafd: Buddy! I thought you were stuck behind the couch in your little ball! I have some nice alfalfa pellets for you.
  • 1 0
 @skywalkdontrun:well if I don't see you...you just keep on cluckin', okay?
  • 2 2
 @Peskycoots: I don't use youtube unless im learning how to fix something generally. Don't have fb or insta either. Suppose that makes me a super loon? Chirp!
  • 1 0
 @skywalkdontrun: hahahaha. Ahh you guys.
  • 1 0
 @skywalkdontrun: you're creative. I'll give you that.
  • 1 0
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: I’m just taking five before I take the A-train to green dolphin street in St Thomas for some hot peanuts and a bitches brew!
  • 1 2
 @skywalkdontrun: you want your little coconut exploded. Watch a documentary called "money masters."
  • 3 1
 @irafd: notice I haven’t given you any instructions on how to think or live your life and every comment of yours tells me how to think and live my life? What does that tell you?
  • 1 0
 @solf: But coconuts are tropical, this is a temperate zone.
  • 3 2
 @Peskycoots: that tells me you lack reading comprehension skills. good night
  • 1 2
 @skywalkdontrun: give it a go. Could be OK.
  • 1 0
 @solf: are you insinuating coconuts migrate?
  • 1 0
 @irafd: I’m pretty sure you’re nocturnal. Probably hear you squeaking away in that wheel of yours all night long.
  • 2 1
 @skywalkdontrun: you don't ACTUALLY believe they don't mlgrate do you? Wake the f**k up.
  • 2 1
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Perhaps it could be carried? Maybe a swallow could grip it by the husk, but then it’s a question of simple weight ratios, and a four ounce swallow just can’t carry a one pound coconut. I suppose a couple of European swallows could have one suspended on a line between them, but it’d have to be fastened behind the dorsal guidance feathers…
  • 2 2
 @skywalkdontrun: you are creative. Child like creative.
  • 1 0
 @solf: “The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." -- Albert Einstein
  • 1 0
 I@skywalkdontrun: if you thought about that idea for ONE SECOND you'd realise how ridiculous it is....birds can't tie knots.
  • 1 1
 @skywalkdontrun: I'm down with that. Imagination is the source of creation.
  • 3 0
 @solf: I knew you’d be familiar with Dunning-Kruger.
  • 5 4
 @irafd:

1) killing the economy over a f*cking cold
2) importing millions of migrants from the worst shit holes
3) chasing co2 emissions goals that destroy the standard of living

100% correct. I would add, chasing unattainable Co2 goals due to alarmist junk models that have zero basis in observable data.

Here’s a simple study that would end all debate about the dangers of the mRNA jabs. Simply look at the the vaccination status of people who have died in the mid 2021 to date excess deaths group. I do wonder if there’s a reason this hasn’t been done. I have a feeling the results would explain the insane desire to Jab everyone, even when it was widely known they were useless.
  • 5 3
 @jclnv: morons think that govt have their best interest in mind when they keep them in lockdown, all while letting in millions of migrants from god knows where unchecked
  • 4 0
 @irafd: Diversity is our strength.
  • 2 2
 @irafd: Hey there little guy. Mind getting off the wheel and and doing something that makes less noise? Some of us are trying to sleep.
  • 2 2
 @irafd: we were so close. Goodnight son see you in the morning I imagine
  • 181 29
 Hang on a second.....healthy athletes were dying of heart conditions way before Covid was a thing?? Well now that can't be! My mate Barry from down the pub said that someone he met on the bus told him that someone had said that a scientist on instagram informed him that it was all very definitely because of vaccines.
  • 42 9
 You get it. Been in the sport 40 years. The so-called unexpected deaths of athletes has always been a thing. Congenital heart defect and routine extreme stresses. Drug use, extreme stresses. Severely under rested, poor care and unreal ability to push (beyond) limits.

What's interesting here is if a history of extreme training and/or long term constant exercise without rest has a statistically significant impact to heart health.
  • 42 24
 No, but there has been an increase in cardiac events and 20% non-C19 excess mortality in most nations in 2022.
  • 8 0
 @CarlMega: "unreal ability to push (beyond) limits" Good point that, known a couple of pros, they absolutely could push themselves to blackout, it was a bit terrifying to witness. Lying in bed with a fever directly afterwards.
  • 52 87
flag mattmach7 (Dec 20, 2022 at 10:02) (Below Threshold)
 Even if I were pollinated and fully vaccinated, I would admire the unvaccinated for withstanding the greatest pressure I have ever seen, even from partners, parents, children, friends, colleagues and doctors.

People who were capable of such personality, courage and critical ability are undoubtedly the best of humanity. They are everywhere, in all ages, levels of education, states and ideas. They are of a special kind; they are the soldiers that every army of light wants to have in its ranks. They are the parents that every child wants to have and the children that every parent dreams of having.

They are beings above the average of their societies, they are the essence of the people who have built all cultures and conquered horizons. They are there, next to you, they look normal, but they are superheroes.

They did what others could not, they were the tree that withstood the hurricane of insults, discrimination and social exclusion. And they did it because they thought they were alone, and believed they were the only one.

Banned from their families' tables at Christmas, they never saw anything so cruel. They lost their jobs, let their careers sink, had no more money ... but they didn't care. They suffered immeasurable discrimination, denunciation, betrayal and humiliation ... but they kept going.

Never before in humanity has there been such a "casting", now we know who are the best on planet Earth. Women, men, old, young, rich, poor, of all races or religions, the unvaccinated, the chosen of the invisible ark, the only ones who managed to resist when everything collapsed.

That's you, you passed an unimaginable test that many of the toughest Marines, Commandos, Green Berets, astronauts and geniuses could not withstand.

You are made of the stuff of the greatest who ever lived, those heroes born among ordinary men who glow in the dark." ~ Author unknown

NEVER FORGET PUREBLOODS
  • 6 3
 There are no healthy people, just bad diagnosed.
  • 12 21
flag BigO66 (Dec 20, 2022 at 10:05) (Below Threshold)
 @mattmach7: I dig it
  • 19 1
 Remover when Mark Weir climbed a million feet in a year on a 30# bike, then almost died of a heart attack, well before covid?
  • 28 18
 @jclnv: the inconvenient truth fee people will acknowledge because they’d rather bury their heads in the sand than admit that scientists may have been wrong. Gasp! That’s the whole point of science. Question everything and keep learning. I’m so sick of the science dogmatists who behave just like the “scientists” of Columbus’s era who said the world was flat. It’s OK to be wrong. Accept it, learn from it, and move forward. Don’t double down on bad science.
  • 3 0
 @jclnv: it is called suicide
  • 7 3
 @gnarlysipes: no one is saying they are 100% right, just that the evidence has not been found to substantiate claims.
  • 4 3
 @hllclmbr: It is almost like eating a heavily meat based diet is super bad for your heart lol
  • 3 4
 @mattmach7: you're being ironic right? Right? Where's the starwars princess meme when you need it
  • 24 4
 @mattmach7: I became confused when small shops were shutting down due to restrictions but big shops prospered. At the height of the pandemic when masks were compulsory our chief medical officer went to a high school, unmasked, and sang songs with a bunch of , drum roll, unmasked kids. The fukcing hypocrisy is real.
  • 15 6
 @kokofosho: They're not listed as such. A large amount are thrombotic embolism and cardiac events. Aggressive cancers are also mysteriously on the rise.
  • 17 13
 @gnarlysipes: That's the difference between science and 'the science'.

It's worse than that for me though. You're not even allowed to question 'the science', no matter how illogical it is, unless you're one of the appointed experts. It's the argument from authority. Feynman would roll in his grave.
  • 9 2
 @jclnv: alright then so your evidence is what then? What causal relationship is there and what is the evidence?
  • 2 2
 @jclnv: www.cnn.com/2022/10/14/health/early-onset-cancer-increase/index.html O"gino thinks the fact that so many of these cancers – eight out of 14 studied – involve the digestive system points to a big role for diet and the bacteria that live in our gut, called the microbiome"
  • 6 4
 @jclnv: You do realize that "not going to the hospital for fear of the virus" can be a very real cause of death that never makes it into the coroner's report?
  • 9 8
 @kokofosho: tens of senators and government officials literally stayed multiple times the jab was 100% safe and effective. Both are false statements. This is fact.
  • 11 9
 @CarlMega: dude that data says 12.5 hours a week. I spent years at 18+ hours a week as an elite triathlete. I'm 53 now and my sleep HR is 52bpm and BP is 105/60.

I've been around elite athletes for 40 years myself and I've never known one to drop dead nor have I known one to develop heart problems.

Now if you add in what you said - drug use (prescriptions including vaccines), poor sleep habits, crap diet (in America), stress in life and more - these are considerable variables that affect the data.

Consider a 25 year old elite athlete in 2015 had more vaccines by age 5 than I have in my entire 53 year life and we have a observable pattern that tracks the consistent increase in sudden cardiac death.

Data is data.
  • 2 5
 @swellhunter: shit. According to Pinkbike you're going to die. Probably tomorrow or this afternoon.
  • 4 5
 @kokofosho: I think if you look at the list of 'adverse events' (deaths) in the Pfizer trail and the VARES it should probably be the default position to blame the mRNA vaccines for the majority of the increase in excess deaths.

What else? It's Occam's Razor isn't it? The hospitals being closed during lockdowns and delayed screenings probably account for a small amount but that wouldn't explain the rise in under 40yo deaths that has been observed.
  • 2 5
 @CarlMega: that is a lie if you look back at the history of sports I'm going to choose soccer because it's an international sport before covid there were zero athletes who died of a heart attack on the field in the middle of a game that's right zero What's the number up to this year a lot more than zero you're a fool people do have heart issues but not like this the death rate is up 40% children are dying of heart attacks during recess or during their activities this has never happened before and keep repeating those talking points you hear from the people who want to kill you
  • 1 2
 @CarlMega: what all of you are not understanding is
  • 1 5
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 9:05) (Below Threshold)
 @CarlMega: which you're not getting is percentages the year of covid there were 0xs deaths the year of the vaccine it went up 40% stillbirths and miscarriages went up 4,000% if a snake bites you and you die it's not from the snake bite right listen exceptions don't disprove the rule they prove the rule when did you go to school probably had your head up your ass
  • 1 7
flag fotop (Dec 23, 2022 at 6:48) (Below Threshold)
 Bro people die every day when the death rate goes up 40% and most of it's heart conditions you should be asking questions exceptions prove the rule don't disprove the rule why don't you look at some statistics why don't you look at what the morticians are reporting who are also not allowed to speak that they are having record number of children dying with no explanation and with with 6 ft blood clots in their legs
  • 1 7
flag fotop (Dec 23, 2022 at 6:51) (Below Threshold)
 @50percentsure: not sure how you grew up but as a kid we did that kind of stuff we pushed ourselves to the point of passing out actually I knew kids who would intentionally make themselves pass out we didn't have heart attacks children didn't have heart attacks from trying too hard recently watched a high school race where teen girl as she crossed the Finish Line blacked out so bad that she busted her head wide open she was wearing a mask the same geniuses Who convinced you that experimental crap was good convince to deny your body of oxygen making your organs and everything else work harder and become damaged while breathing in toxic fibers that cause lung cancer.
  • 129 5
 On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everybody drops to zero.
  • 25 2
 Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.
  • 24 0
 It could be worse A woman could cut off your penis while you're sleeping and toss it out the window of a moving car.
  • 16 13
 @Dopepedaler: even if you identify as one?
  • 15 3
 You are not a beautiful, and unique snowflake
  • 13 1
 Horrific! I've read somewhere else there's people dying today which wasn't dead before!!!
  • 10 0
 This is your life, and it’s ending one minute at a time.
  • 6 0
 @Dogl0rd: I am Jack's top-three WCO level trained sense of cognitive dissonance.
  • 33 0
 Build a man a fire and he's warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  • 13 36
flag mattmach7 (Dec 20, 2022 at 10:00) (Below Threshold)
 Purebloods will inherit the earth. :-)
  • 6 3
 100 billion people have been born. 92 billion have died so far.
  • 24 5
 @mattmach7: I don't even want to ask what a pure blood is. Like an unvaccinated person? Like Harry f*cking Potter? Vaccinated are mud bloods then? Dear Lord :face palm:
  • 1 11
flag jaame (Dec 20, 2022 at 10:52) (Below Threshold)
 @DirkMcClerkin: You like a bit of interpolation hey!
  • 10 0
 @mattmach7: All the pollutants and micro-plastics swimming around in your blood since birth say otherwise.
  • 7 1
 @jaame: Yay...fun interpolation. Like Nazis in politics level of fun. Even better fun to take a nail and hammer it right through your hand.
  • 2 1
 This is your life and it‘s ending one minute at a time.
  • 1 0
 You pull a lever, push a button, you don’t know what you’re doing and then you die
  • 4 7
 Up vote for the ZH reference
  • 2 4
 @jaame: odds aren't in my favour are they?
  • 3 0
 It’s only after we’ve lost everything that we’re free to do anything.
  • 2 8
flag jaame (Dec 21, 2022 at 11:21) (Below Threshold)
 The people in power at the current time have decided that we must protect human life at all costs. To hell with personal choice, freedom or autonomy. No one is allowed to die! Only when we have prevented all human fatalities will we be satisfied! Ironic given death is the only thing guaranteed in life.
  • 2 5
 @jaame: you hit the nail on the head. Security is actually the core reason governments exist, but there isn't a good mechanism in place for culturally deciding how far that should go. Because security issues are all "emergencies" democratic processes are so easily overridden to deal with them, and then the decisions have no real popular mandate or legitimacy
  • 3 6
 @Dogl0rd: just make sure no one dies. Everyone has to live forever! If science can save them, science will save them!
Vaccinate everyone, then do it again (and again)! Run out of people to vaccinate? Change the age range! Vaccinate five year olds at all the schools! Vaccinate your pets! No one shall die. NOT ON MY WATCH.
  • 2 6
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 8:48) (Below Threshold)
 You're right and if you take the f*cking vaccine in your under 50 you got a 30% rate of myocarditis periocarditis or a heart attack but that's okay cuz myocarditis doesn't kill you they do some hard ablation and then you have a whole 5 years to live totally worth it bro!
  • 1 7
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 9:07) (Below Threshold)
 @DirkMcClerkin: a recent Nobel loriac had said before the vaccines were administered the only thing we can do for the vaccinated is prepare the incinerators so yes if you didn't trust in God and the design if you listened to Idols tell you what to do then you should know where your fate lies
  • 4 0
 @fotop: Nobel loriac? Are they affiliated with the Gazpacho Police? Or, are you referring to the World of Warcraft character?
  • 3 0
 @Dopepedaler: I assumed he meant Lorax
  • 1 7
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 18:12) (Below Threshold)
 @Dopepedaler: you got bro dont focus in the facts. Nobel laureate* is that better you happy now. Loser
  • 5 0
 @fotop: It's a noble Lorax. We already determined this.
  • 126 52
 Today's comments section is brought to you by Pfizer...
  • 47 9
 Co sponsored by Coca-Cola and McDonalds
  • 88 20
 Died suddenly? Another one? Hmmmm...Must be global warming? :-)
  • 67 12
 It was a pretty well researched, written and referenced article, the sort of thing that drives you mad eh?
  • 31 36
flag mininhi (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:33) (Below Threshold)
 @mattmach7: God forbid idiot Trudeau reads the pinkbike comments
  • 7 18
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:39) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: Did my flippant sarcasm give the impression that I was mad? That's a weird take...
  • 16 6
 @badbadleroybrown: no your previous form did
  • 8 15
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:11) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: My previous form? Damn bro, guess I really left an impression on you huh... sorry to say I've no idea who you are or what "previous form" you're still holding on to.
  • 10 15
flag fiftypercentsure (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:20) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: Oh shit, you're right! This guy is the nutbar anti vax guy. Amazing tenacity. Congrats...?
  • 6 16
flag mattmach7 (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:28) (Below Threshold)
 The AIDS vax does not damage the heart so I took that one instead. No COVID so far.
  • 7 15
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:47) (Below Threshold)
 @mobiller: You wanna go ahead and quote my "nutbar anti vax" comments?
  • 17 10
 @badbadleroybrown: no one cares about you that much, which is potentially why you are on a bike website screaming for attention so hard
  • 13 17
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 20, 2022 at 10:28) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: Says the guy who apparently has me living rent free in his head over "nutbar anti vax" comments I never made... sounds legit. You came out saying you remembered me buddy, weird flex to try and flip things to pretend you don't care enough remember me now.
  • 9 5
 @badbadleroybrown: whoa no one said anything about rent free lad I’m charging
  • 15 10
 @badbadleroybrown: you literally hinted that Pfizer is paying pinkbike. Of course we're gonna assume you're anti vax now
  • 1 10
flag badbadleroybrown (Dec 20, 2022 at 11:46) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: LMAO... I don't know who you're charging but you ain't getting paid. lol
  • 17 12
 @Saucycheese:
1. Sarcasm mate... Just a bit of snark, if you actually think I was implying that Pfizer is even aware of Pinkbike's existence then you read way to much into the comment.

2. I'm not anti-vax at all, in fact I've got a long record of mocking the "vaccines cause autism" crowd. I'm just against largely ineffective and generally unnecessary trial medications being touted as effective and safe while being forced upon the people without even a single long term case study proving their claims of safety and efficacy.
  • 8 4
 @badbadleroybrown: I’m charging you Covid nut attention bucks and you seem to be paying up
  • 11 9
 Thank you PB for stating what is often lost in the vax/anti-vax debate: That (on average) COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines.

But, ultimately the choice should be up to the individual. I am still getting over COVID (that I contracted in September), and it sucks. YMMV
  • 10 5
 @audeo03: Great, but the vaccines don't prevent Covid, so now what?
  • 1 3
 @mininhi: he can read?
  • 2 7
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 8:51) (Below Threshold)
 You should be anti-vaxx there is zero evidence that vaccines work in the way that they claim there's actually tons of evidence that prove that it causes autism and all types of of conditions that barely existed before we were given children 52 different vaccines it's amazing our bodies can filter this crap out but if you think we're smarter stronger or healthier than our ancestors you should wake up for everybody who doesn't know the start of vaccines came when they started picking scabs off of cows crushing them up and snorting them this is where it all started congratulations for not doing any research or any history David ick hasn't documentary on the history of the vaccine watch it if you dare
  • 5 4
 @fotop: That run on blob of words and idiocy just made everyone who reads it a little bit dumber... There is definitive, irrefutable proof of traditional vaccine efficacy along with zero legitimate data that even effectively correlates traditional vaccines with autism or any other ailment and aside from idiots and scammers, no one is dumb enough to believe that. Don't confuse the legitimate shortcomings and scientifically sound questions surrounding the covid vaccines with the level of outright stupidity necessary to refute vaccination as a whole.
  • 3 1
 @fotop: watch it you dare everybody! Somebody on pinkbike must have the answers of the universe!
  • 1 6
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 12:55) (Below Threshold)
 @badbadleroybrown: says the man who has no evidence. DEL BIGTREE left is cushy job at NBC the doctors when confronted with the evidence. INTEGRITY OBV. YOU HAVE NONE.
  • 3 3
 @fotop: of course you're a fan of Del Bigtree. He's as trashy as Trump
  • 3 2
 @fotop: sorry to hear about your head injury, get well soon.
  • 1 7
flag fotop (Dec 23, 2022 at 6:53) (Below Threshold)
 @badbadleroybrown: if you think Pfizer is not aware of pink bike existence then you're even dumber than you sound
  • 9 0
 @fotop: Holy Jesus get off the internet and ride your bike. Better yet talk to real health professionals
  • 1 2
 @Saucycheese: Holy Jesus get off the internet and ride your health professional. Better yet talk to a real bike.

Fixed that for you
  • 48 0
 At the risk of wandering into difficult territory, I wonder how many of the elite athletes who develop various cardiac conditions have also utilized performance enhancement drugs. Not victim blaming if so, just wondering about variables.
  • 6 0
 shooting EPO is bad for you indeed
  • 2 0
 @panchocampbell: Interesting. I heard EPO was to accelerate recovery (so not necessarily performance enhancing) and racing a Tour de France is healthier with EPO than without. Can't tell personally, have never ridden the race nor have I delved in this matter.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: EPO increases hematocrit in blood, which in turn, increases the amount of oxygen it can carry. Definitely performance enhancing.
  • 1 3
 You guys can all argue about whatever you want. Just make sure every single human does not die.
  • 33 7
 "Although vaccines have been linked to a slight increase in the risk of myocarditis or pericarditis (heart inflammation)"..."the study found that vaccination was linked with a lower risk of cardiac arrest or death."

The link explaining this odd discrepancy Error 404's. I would very much like to read it if you have the unbroken link.
  • 7 1
 The link works for me (if this is the one you're referring to www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068665)
  • 59 36
 jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346

The funny part is there's still people denying there is any risk with this vaccine. It ultimately becomes a risk/ reward thing of course if the vaccine could have eradicated the virus the myocarditis risk would in my mind have been worth it. However, it clearly did effectively nothing to eradicate even though it was preached it would.. the virus was already mutating and it was widely accepted that the vaccine was not as effective on the mutations as it was still being pushed as a cure all.
  • 5 0
 The link is fixed now. Thanks.
  • 18 24
flag beetardfoozer (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:10) (Below Threshold)
 @stealthpenguin: STOP THAT! NUANCE IS NOW PUNISHABLE! ALL SHOULD BE JABBED!
  • 19 19
 @stealthpenguin: stop making so much sense they don’t like that
  • 2 0
 jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914

Here are a couple of studies. Not sure either is the specific one they were referencing.
  • 63 21
 @stealthpenguin: Complete eradication vs. zero risk of myocarditis Are not the only two options. Three ways to look at it:

Scenario 1: Societal. Compare the total risk - short-term mortality, acute illness, change in lifespan, change in quality of life, etc. - for the whole population with or without the vaccine. In that analysis, vaccination is the clear winner.

Scenario 2: Individual. Ignore impacts beyond the individual and weigh the risks for each individual. The vaccine is still a clear winner for vulnerable individuals. The choice is less obvious for less vulnerable individuals. Obviously, the survival rate from COVID infections is high for those at less risk. Nonetheless, the likelihood of COVID infection is nearly 100% (usually more than 100%, counting multiple infections), and COVID itself carries all the risks of the vaccine with greater frequency and severity. The vaccine reduces these risks, even if it carries a lesser risk of its own. As such, the balance of risks is more favourable with the vaccine.

Scenario 3: Individual freedoms. Some people feel their freedoms are threatened by laws, so they will always resist safety measures; for them, neither of the scenarios above apply.

Considering Scenario 2, the individual case is much like wearing a helmet, with motorcycles providing a clearer example than bicycles. Slight discomfort and inconvenience are guaranteed and I'm sure some people have been in accidents while wearing helmets that may have been avoided without the helmet, due to the helmet reducing hearing and vision. When all outcomes are weighed, helmets are more likely to be helpful than harmful, even for those with a robust body and bike handling skills.
  • 17 34
flag beetardfoozer (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:30) (Below Threshold)
 @R-M-R: Lotsa words for glossing over the point.
  • 8 22
flag jclnv (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:47) (Below Threshold)
 Here's a better paper -https://insulinresistance.org/index.php/jir/article/view/71
  • 9 30
flag OnTheRivet (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:48) (Below Threshold)
 @beetardfoozer: In the dictionary under pedantic it says "see R-M-R"
  • 40 4
 @beetardfoozer, @OnTheRivet: A dislike for reading explains a great deal.
  • 24 4
 @R-M-R: For the record I wasn't implying that they were.. however, I do believe when a vaccine is mandated or that people can justify sanctimonious actions such as ridiculing those who are skeptical of the vaccine it should include that. I appreciate your perspective for the most part and I do my best to understand where you're coming from as it appears to be rational. Scenario 1: I can get behind it a bit from a public health standpoint... kinda the way vets always want you to neuter your dog. Is it the right answer for everyone's dog under every circumstance... not necessarily... but greater good. Unfortunately from a public health standpoint we just rolled the clock back on the trust of vaccines about 30 years. Vaccines have been an overwhelming positive for society and have eradicated deadly disease. Prior to COVID there was already a ridiculous amount of antivax loonies for things like polio. Well two key things happened that just gave those idiots all the ammunition they need to continue their disillusioned rhetoric: they were lied to by public health officials and those in charge that it would stop COVID and other is there are no risk. Unless you are arguing the validity of the three peer reviewed studies posted above there is risk. Not to mention it basically gave the on the fence government overstep people a reason to take a side.. (scenario 3)
Scenario 2: I agree vulnerable individuals and at risk individuals should take the vaccine, again the risk reward thing. The benefit of possible lessened symptoms of COVID far outweighs the risk of myocarditis, especially in this population. There is a reason that QALY's and DALY's exist in health economics and biostatistics. The same is not as easy of a choice for the younger population. I am not going to take the time to completely dissect all the studies out there right now but I seem to remember there is an inverse relationship especially around males in their 20s and 30s where the vaccine has more prevalence of myocarditis while the risks of COVID itself is pretty low. The last part is actually a pretty poor analogy.. it would be more reasonable if there was occurrences, no matter how low, of the helmet causing head trauma itself.
  • 12 3
 @jclnv: lol what a joke of a website
  • 22 7
 @stealthpenguin: Thank you for being willing and able to have a resonable discussion on this topic. What a pleasant change!

It seems our views are mostly in alignment. I'll address things in point form:

• Sanctimoniousness / ridiculing: Civility and respect are important. My view is that taking steps to reduce the risk of disease spread is also a type of respect, so I understand where people are coming from in their frustration toward those who aren't "team players". Of course, personal freedom is also important, but there are already endless ways in which social responsibility is mandated, so it seems reasonable - to me, at any rate - to have some level of requirements in place or restrictions on those who opt out.
• Rolling back the clock on vaccine acceptance: True, that has happened, though I think much of it is due to hysteria and fear of the unknown. Just as people learned that heavier-than-air aircraft really can stay aloft, I hope we will eventually overcome these fears. There is a level of personal responsibility for people to understand the science, a responsibility to keep an open mind, and a responsibility to at least give a respectful ear to people who have spent years studying these things.
• Polio, etc.: True, there is usually mistrust and resistance around new technologies. It's interesting, though, that many people have accepted other vaccines, yet the COVID vaccine is perceived differently.
• Lied to by public officials: Public messaging is difficult. The information has to be condensed, or public officials would have to read every entire study and teach courses in statistics to discuss anything. Inevitably, nuance is lost. The message from the source was never that the COVID vaccine had zero risk. My perception is that people often compare the risks of the vaccine vs. no vaccine without factoring in infection. In that comparison, vaccines would always be the wrong choice, as they carry greater than zero risk. I believe a better comparison, in this case, is vaccine vs. no vaccine under the assumption we will all be exposed to COVID, in which case exposure + vaccine is safer than exposure + no vaccine. Essentially no one is going to get through life without multiple exposures to COVID, so we need to account for the total risk profile to fairly assess the net change due to the vaccine.
• Young males: My understanding is there is no group for which the risk of side-effects is greater from exposure + vaccine than exposure + no vaccine. It's not impossible for that to be the case, but I don't see how it could be universal that a dose of viral components could be worse than the actual virus. If this were to occur, the solution would probably be to tune the vaccine dosage for such groups to minimize the exposure + vaccine risk; if done correctly, it should always be possible to get that risk below exposure + no vaccine.
• Helmet analogy: It's not a perfect analogy, just something I came up with quickly. I still think it serves the purpose of showing how a preventative measure increases some risks, but lowers the total risk. Maybe we could look at seat belts or airbags, which do cause some direct injuries. Or maybe you could come up with something that resonates with you, but I think you see what I'm trying to get at.

Thanks again for the reasonable discourse!
  • 13 16
 @R-M-R: Scenario 4: Governments finally give up on using covid for political purposes, drop the experimental vaccines and develop safe vaccines with acceptable risks like all other FDA approved drugs. Win for humanity, but apparently this is a taboo stance to take....smfh
  • 9 1
 @stealthpenguin: Thank you! I couldn't have put that any better. Except I kinda liked RMR's helmet analogy.
I would however go on to point out that (to stretch this analogy well beyond sensible limits) that in this scenario, the rider also promptly grows their own natural helmet, if they survive their first crash unprotected, with largely the same benefits but fewer downsides as the government mandated helmet. Meaning that two years on, all those who refused the vaccine are now likely to have had covid at least once, and are now similarly protected to any vaccinated. And any vaccinated who are no longer strictly social distancing have likely also had covid at least once, and are at risk from the same negative side effects as any other non-immunocompromised covid survivor, vaccinated or not.

The real winners here are the at risk parties (essentially the old and the ill) who the vaccine protected from more serious effects or death the first time they were infected. We will probably never know solid numbers on these though.
The real losers are those who suffered more serious side effects from the vaccine than the virus would have provoked (largely young healthy people with promising futures). We will almost certainly never get hard numbers here either.

I'd hazard a guess that immune compromised people who the vaccine helped greatly outnumber the healthy people it may have injured. But I'd also suggest that this is small comfort to anyone who had an unprecedented heart attack at 30 after being vaccinated. Those people have every right to be pretty damn angry about how this played out.
  • 22 27
flag mazze (Dec 20, 2022 at 12:40) (Below Threshold)
 @R-M-R: It's hard to take your opinion serious in a 'reasonable discussion' because it is more than evident you haven't done any research on the topic at all.

How is it interesting that many people perceive the COVID vaccine differently when it is literally an entirely different technology than the common active immunization ('inactivated vaccine') or passive immunization (antibody injections) by oldstyle vaccines? It's a technology which has not ever been proven safe for human use and has failed in several animal trials before.

"Public officials would have to read every entire study and teach courses in statistics to discuss anything".
No shit?! Guess what... that's why they're paid 150k/year for doing nothing else but doing their f*cking homework on political decisions. When you're an incompetent degree holder in gender studies and you have no profound understanding of any subject, let alone basic statistics, you are simple not in the position to make any health decisions for the general public. Most politicians these days are neither competent enough nor willing to actually work for their tax paid salaries, but instead do as they're told by corrupt pharma-paid thinktanks. Wake up.

Your understanding about the situation for young adults, especially males, is wrong, because there is scientific evidence, that risk outweighs the benefits by far. And this has been known even before the vaccines were recommended - or let's say became mandated (by psychological coercion at least) - for children.

The Helmet/seatbelt analogy, which you are regurgitating, is a deceitful WEF-jargon fallacy used by corrupt reporters and scientists. It is excusing the fact that these vaccines do not, have not and never will stop transmission. In fact, they weren't even tested for this before mass rollout. Therefore, your view that taking steps to reduce the risk of disease spread bein a respectful deed that can be expected from anyone shows that you're kind hearted, yet totally naive; because this has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.
The governments all over the world have basically mandated a vaccine, paid for by the taxpayer, that did not have a sterilizing effect on the viral population, that was not effective against infection and that has cost more than 35,000 lives in North America alone. These are statistical facts. All of the profits have been privatized whereas all the risks have been socialized. This is institutionalized corruption and not an adequate methodological approach in any political environment.
  • 17 8
 @mazze: Yikes.
  • 6 11
flag hamncheez (Dec 20, 2022 at 12:52) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: Why is your link being downvoted?
  • 15 10
 @R-M-R: You wear your seatbelt to protect yourself, not to protect others. Also, wearing a seatbelt might induce injuries, however, in that case not wearing it would have most likely killed you.
I don't know of any instances in which wearing a seatbelt has spontaneously killed people or left them permanently disabled. It's a different story with COVID vaccines though.
This is where the risk/benefit trade-off comes in and why it can be concluded that, for old and vulnerable individuals, the benefits outweigh the risks.
However, there is no justification to coerce the entire fertile population let alone kids to take an experimental vaccine that potentially has devastating effects on their future health 10 years down the road simply on behalf of protecting the elderly. In what kind of society do you sacrifice the health of children - the general public's future - on behalf of its past?

"Yikes" is all you got as a response?
I mean... You, the guy who literally just hypocritically wished for "someone willing and able to have a 'reasonable discussion'"? LMAO.
  • 12 9
 @hamncheez: because the fragility of of minds who cannot / will not critically examine or entertain the possibility they have been duped. The logical outcome of such examination may point to the conclusion they have made a critical error in judgement with consequences they cannot reverse. They cannot live with the possibility they've crossed the medical Rubicon into self destruction. That is why..
  • 13 7
 @R-M-R: wonderful post. Really well laid out.
  • 10 9
 @Saucycheese: It's an online medical journal and the paper is written by one of the worlds leading cardiologists.

Would you rather is was a Lancet hit piece at the origins of the virus?
  • 13 10
 @hamncheez: It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
  • 14 7
 @jclnv: Gotta love those leaked Fauci emails where he "instructs" all the other virologists to smear anyone talking about the lab leak hypothesis
  • 11 9
 @hamncheez: Yep. Plus the comedy piece that got printed in the Lancet.

The way people believed the wild virus origin proved to me early on how utterly easy it was to steer the dumb masses.
  • 13 7
 @jclnv @hamncheez: how about the study that 'proved' the unvaccinated are causing significantly more traffic accidents and, therefore, should have to pay higher insurance cost henceforth?
Better take your vax if you don't want to be in a traffic accident!
  • 10 8
 @mazze: LOL! More quality, peer reviewed, 'the science'.
  • 4 0
 @mazze: that post is what we call a complete undressing. Bravo!
  • 11 5
 @jclnv: a leading cardiologist? You mean a guy looking for attention because his peers don't give him attention
  • 2 6
flag jaame (Dec 21, 2022 at 3:43) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: i love the science. The science proves all!
  • 1 4
 Your a fool.
  • 6 1
 @fotop: you're illiterate
  • 6 4
 @mazze: you believe anything you hear dont you. Bahh bahhh!!
  • 1 1
 @jaame: dinasours too.
  • 9 9
 @R-M-R: no covid does NOT carry all the risks of an artificially created vaccine that carries artificially created treatments for your body. Not at all and not in the slightest bit. In fact they have NEVER EVER got a mrna vaccine to full human trials in the US or any Western country (they tried in Africa and it didn't go well) because they can't stabilise the technology properly. It's always had severe issues on the hearts of the animals they have tested them on.

It's not even a vaccine, which as with the mumps etc one the kids are given DOES stop spread, which remotely stops the vaccine. Now it apparently just keeps most of out of hospital.

If you are going to preach at least research properly.
  • 12 7
 @R-M-R: yikes? He just completely proved you wrong. Which is why you can't reply with anything else.

As for the issues in young males? Why do you think most of Scandinavia stopped vaxxinating young males, up to 30 by the end of it, and now Denmark aren't vaxxong anyone under 50? Because of the Lolz?

THEY know more than you. So do most governments, that's why almost all mandates are now gone, and most don't push for any more boosters, and most have shut the fk up about covid. It's not because they think covid is gone either, most countries still have high case numbers and lots of deaths.
  • 11 7
 @Saucycheese: He's committed career suicide (by cutting off pharma funding) because he craves attention?

You're desperation to discredit anyone but government appointed experts is pathetic. Do you know John Ioannidis was cancelled because he published a paper early on that suggested C19 had a similar case fatality to influenza. He was correct and He's the worlds most highly regarded epidemiologist.

If you're not in the least bit suspicious after 3 years of this BS you've lost the ability to think critically.
  • 9 7
 @jclnv: you're literally on a bike website defending one scientist out of millions who went against COVID and somehow you think you're better than us all. JFC get a life you douchebag
  • 9 7
 @Saucycheese: if he’s the only one you’re aware of then that explains why you’re so clueless. Turn off the CBC you drone.
  • 2 8
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 6:24) (Below Threshold)
 @WkDayWarrior: you have no idea what I know the entire thing was a scam these vaccines are bio weapons. You're a fool.
  • 3 7
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 6:30) (Below Threshold)
 @WkDayWarrior: was going to hold back but it's idiots like you why people are dying let's be real vaccine technology is far from proven the only polio that exists is a vaccine related strand admitted by The Who almost half a million kids in Pakistan received polio from this Bill Gates vaccine related strain Bill Gates once did a Ted Talk on how vaccines will help the population get close to zero because the problem is there's too many people on the planet don't take my word look it up event 201 happened one month in New York before the release of this fake virus it was a medical drill where a mystery flu virus came from China the end result was we didn't take Draconian enough measures and that we should have forcibly injected everybody covid is released Ralph Barack Peter dasic and Anthony fauci new exactly what was going on Ralph Barrett has the patent to covid-19 the virus as well as the papers that show The Cure hydroxychloroquine Ivermectin a Nobel prize winning antiviral that pretty much eradicated all parasites and living creatures not just horse- paste Dr Zeb zelenko recently just passed brought light to all this information when hydroxychloroquine became unavailable because of our corrupt medical system he found out that corsetin works and he created a supplement called z- stack. Now here's the info I don't know that only governments know that it would have taken 10 years to have the MRNA covid vaccine approved without emergency approval what does that mean if there is a therapeutic that is even 15% effective then you cannot authorize and experimental gene therapy not actually a vaccine for emergency use Dr Pierre Cory went to the Senate one of the most published doctors in his field treating coach vid patients with a tremendous rate of success so were America's Frontline doctors which you weren't allowed to see because your governments are trying to control you brought all this information to light showed the 60 plus studies of how effective Ivermectin was is a prophylactic and a cure it is what Japan used to eliminate their disease they also found out that there was an extremely low rate of covid in Africa and that's because they take anti-malaria medication also known as hydroxychloroquine they take it weekly they call it Sunday
  • 3 8
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 6:31) (Below Threshold)
 @WkDayWarrior: but you're right I know nothing I know that the CDC has done studies on masks and that during the original Spanish flu that was the cause of a lot of deaths it was hypoxia and wearing dirty rags over your face as soon as you touch a mask and validates any effect not to mention that also will tell you that the fibers in those masks cause lung cancer it's been known forever surgeons know not to wear them for any extended period of time and there's actually procedure to put them on but again I don't know anything
  • 2 8
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 6:33) (Below Threshold)
 @WkDayWarrior: and one correction no doubt the government's know more than I do because they're the ones causing this fake pandemic they've been planning to lock down since and vaccinate since 2007 the real Anthony fauci it's a book you should read it and now
  • 1 8
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 6:37) (Below Threshold)
 @WkDayWarrior: just because I want you to realize that I obviously do know more than you about it after they get emergency approval for the vaccine the only way they can avoid responsibility of vaccine injuries and be sued is if they can get it approved for children I think it was seven different heads of the FDA had to step down because they would not approve it when they got all of the shells that would they approved it without hesitation and now miscarriages and still births are up 4,000 plus percent sure it's a coincidence I'm sure everything happens by coincidence and none of this is planned Pfizer was trillions of dollars into debt before this happened the PCR test invented by Carrie Mullis cannot diagnose virus look it up he even called Anthony fauci out several times saying Anthony fauces fake virologist who has no idea what he's talking about he also exposed with Judy mikovits that Anthony fauci started the fake HIV pandemic they were testing for certain antibodies present in HIV patients without knowing if they could be present in people with other illnesses or without HIV at all using this fake test they misdiagnosed people with HIV to give him a drug called AZT which is the most toxic substance they've given to humans the next closest thing remdesivir was used in the age trial in Africa with three other drugs was the first one pulled because it caused severe organ failure they actually nicknamed it your death is near cuz it was a miracle if you could make it a week on there strangely enough for hospitals were incentivized to not treat anyone with any types of medication until they diagnosed him with covid using a test it doesn't test for the virus they get a bonus from the government for diagnosing someone with covid don't treat them they get more money to intubate them 90% of everybody intubated was killed and if the patient dies they get another $50,000 bonus that sounds like they're incentivizing hospitals to kill people why wouldn't they incentivize the hospitals with the highest success rate there's a doctor out there Dr Ben marble who's treated over 200,000 covid patients he actually does it for free my free doctor.com 95% success rate he said he had two patients die and that's because they refuse to take the medication he prescribed but still better right than anyone else he was also part of America's Frontline doctors and had to sit down with Ron Johnson where the real doctors come and tell you this is crazy but just keep eating the bullshit believe what you want Jesus is King all you better get right with God
  • 1 7
flag fotop (Dec 22, 2022 at 6:49) (Below Threshold)
 @WkDayWarrior fauci has intellectual property on remdesivir and the vaccine he makes money off of both he lied to Congress he funded the gain of fund research there are whistleblowers from Wuhan talking about it he even proposed to the Pentagon to release the virus in bat caves you got to stop believing what you hear and start doing what's called research I know you sat in school and repeated everything the teacher said I was out skating coming in only when I had to and acing my tests test without even going to class because I didn't need someone to tell me how to think
  • 2 5
 @fotop: keep them coming!
  • 6 3
 @fotop: Dude I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but man stop and take a breath.
  • 6 3
 @hamncheez: the funny thing is, he predominantly argues with people who seem to have a very similar view as himself. Lacking a certain amount of tactfulness and too unintelligent to understand people´s obvious sarcasm (further below) and/or to identify who - at least partly - agrees with him, fotop is the kind of guy who gives the general public the impression we're all stupid nutcases. Lol.
In German you'd say he is providing a 'Bärendienst', that is, he means well but is actually doing a disservice to like-minded people.
  • 6 2
 @fotop: you do realise that my whole post was anti vaccine and fauci/big pharma right. And that I was saying Denmark, who have basically stopped vaccines, know more than we do.. and they have stopped them.

Or are you a complete moron who can't do paragraphs or read properly.
  • 2 1
 @mazze: the takeaway is don't comment after drinking, I suppose
  • 3 2
 @mazze: Unfortunately the type of person you describe tends to be the loudest voice in any online argument these days. It really is an endemic problem. There is an argument to be made that this is why the world is such a mess politically at the moment.

I like the word "Bärendienst". I'll be using that in future, Thank you!
  • 40 15
 Everyone who volunteers for drug trials is at higher risk of premature death.
  • 8 16
flag mattmach7 (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:52) (Below Threshold)
 World Data: At least 1 dose - 90.8% / Fully vaccinated - 66.2%....and you all have been lied to? Nah....
  • 29 13
 13 billion Covid vaccination shots given worldwide so far. mRNA vaccines began development 60 years ago. Personally I like a sample size of at least 80 billion and a research history of 1000 years so I'm going to hold off.
  • 18 22
flag jclnv (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:39) (Below Threshold)
 @mattmach7: If you mean that people who were under 60-70 years old required the vaccines to prevent a serious case of C19? Then yes, they were lied to. 100%.
  • 11 22
flag mattmach7 (Dec 20, 2022 at 10:02) (Below Threshold)
 Well, sorry if you’re already vaxxed and dying.
Love,

Joe
  • 14 9
 @mobiller: So get the shot, and still be hospitalized with covid.... or don't get the shot and still be hospitalized with covid.... decisions, decisions.
  • 13 12
 @JonDud: If your health is such that you need to be hospitalized with covid after getting three shots, you have quite a high risk of straight up dying from covid without the shot.
  • 7 4
 @Ttimer: good parrot
  • 19 2
 I'd be careful about relying on the mortality risk plot and related results. That wide confidence band (likely reflecting a 95% chance that the true mortality rate is somewhere within that band) indicates that the sample size used for the mortality rate estimate for the most active group is very small compared to the others, and that we can be relatively less certain that the true mortality rate is "close" to the estimate for that group. In short, that group may truly have the lowest mortality rate of all, but there could be a cluster of outliers in that small sample of "elite athletes" that are distorting reality.
  • 17 5
 Yes! I have my degree in economics, and took a class that did nothing but teach you how to read scientific papers that use econometrics and other advanced statistical techniques. We went through dozens of papers that dedicated pages and pages to advanced statistical analysis, but their sample size was 17, or the data has severe collection bias, etc. And these are published, cited, peer-reviewed papers.
  • 5 1
 The article indicates that the differences between the highest and second highest exercise groups are statistically insignificant, and again point it out in their discussion: '...and 3), there does not appear to be an elevated mortality risk with leisure-time physical activity levels as high as 10+ times the recommended minimum.'
  • 8 2
 This is what happens when Pinkbike tries to be a scientist
  • 8 0
 Was gonna say this. The lack of appropriate sample size for people in the elite class makes the effects of each outcome overweighted. The comment section is a lousy place to learn about statistics though.
  • 3 0
 Yes, when you look at the graph you see the risk of mortality increasing to 0.69 for the category that exercises the most. But you cannot just look at averages, you need to consider the variability around the averages (and do statistical tests, but that is another story).

The wide bar for the last category is probably because there were fewer people exercising at those levels, and that variability it what makes the difference "insignificant", using statistical jargon. And indeed the JAMA study concluded that "There was no evidence of harm at 10+ times the recommended minimum (0.68, 0.59–0.76)"

By the way quoting average (or a single data point!) with no regards to the variability, is the main reason why the timed runs appearing on Pinkbike tests are most lileky meaningless. People look at differences of seconds in single runs, without realizing that those differences might mean nothing about the performance of a bike and just reflect random variability.
  • 3 0
 "People can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forfty percent of all people know that."
  • 4 0
 @tremeer023: well, not so true. It is people who do not understand statistics who misuse it. Like in the commentary above by Seb Stott: it is false to say that JASA article suggest that over-training increases the risk of death. The JASA article states correctly that there is no evidence for that.
  • 1 1
 I wouldn't trust a plot that is mislabeled Hrs/wk when the units are actually in minutes/week.
  • 1 2
 @JohanG: Read the linked paper - they're using MET H/wk, not minutes/week.
  • 26 6
 Ain’t nothing elite about the pb comments section, other than being an incel of course
  • 8 6
 I really found this article interesting in many ways. A shame to see the comments section drown in antiwaxx
  • 3 1
 @lenniDK: I'm guessing Denmark isn't as polarised as North America?
  • 23 3
 100% of people who drink water eventually die.
  • 3 0
 no more water
  • 4 0
 That's why I only drink coffee and sports drinks
  • 5 1
 @DizzyNinja: you’ll never believe what the number ingredient is in coffee and sports drink!
  • 9 1
 Beer it is then.
  • 3 2
 @wobblegoblin: don't say it. Do not say it
  • 16 2
 There is a terrific podcast called, "The Drive" where Dr. Peter Attia routinely goes into great detail about this/these types of topics. The TL;DR is that there is, in fact, a "J shaped curve" to mortality associated risks of exercise. That said, the vast majority of athletes will not train frequently or intensely enough to increase their risk. Meanwhile, overall strength, bone density and VO2 max are enormously predictive of increased longevity throughout life. In fact, it is more advantageous to be in the top 1% of VO2 max (relative to the bottom 25%) for your age group than it is hazardous to be a smoker, Type II diabetic, or even in renal failure.

Also important to recognize that certain heart "abnormalities" that arise from training are often not associated with increased mortality risk if other factors are in control. For example, many cyclist develop some degree of Left Ventricular Hypertrophy (LVH) - however, this is not dangerous if your blood pressure is in normal or low (which many trained athletes will enjoy). Simultaneously, this lower blood pressure also helps to mitigate atherosclerosis and heart disease, which are still the leading causes of mortality in the developed world.
  • 3 0
 EKG criteria for LVH or echo criteria for LVH? Not sure that this should be developing a true measured LVH without some underlying comorbidity, such as exaggerated BP response to exercise, or undiagnosed underlying hypertension

See plenty of young healthy athletes that come in with palpitations and EKG LVH criteria. Haven't seen many without a family history have echo LVH or HCM, HOCM, ARVCM etc...
  • 3 0
 @schlockinz: I should've been more clear: EKG LVH criteria. You're spot on - it's probably important to note that LVH is distinct from "athlete's heart" - where there is both hypertrophy of the left ventricle and accommodation via increased diastolic/systolic dimension, lower overall heart rate and preservation of function. Smile
  • 3 0
 Can I get a tldr for your tldr?
  • 7 0
 @Ironchefjon: TL;DR - exercise good. Really, really good. Maybe the best.
  • 2 0
 @KJP1230: thats what i like to hear! cheers Smile
  • 17 3
 Bravo Seb. You must have put a lot of work into this and it shows. Part of my work involves cardiac screening and explaining the risks of exercise following the results. I'm going to steal away this article into my resource library and may end up sending it to clients.
  • 9 22
flag jclnv (Dec 20, 2022 at 9:52) (Below Threshold)
 You should read this one as the author is highly relevant to your profession - insulinresistance.org/index.php/jir/article/view/71
  • 4 0
 @jclnv: why is this published in the journal for insulin resistance?
  • 7 7
 @jclnv: thanks for sharing this, good info
  • 6 6
 @jclnv: Good find. I'd heard Dr. Halhotra reference that study, but hadn't been able to locate it.
  • 9 5
 Have a read of this chaps: sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i-dr-asseem-malhotra-rails-against-covid-19-misinformation

Asseem Malhotra is a more of a clickbait farmer for the Express than a cardiologist these days.
  • 9 7
 @padkinson: Gorski is a schill for pharma. Hardly an objective source. Malhotra actually took the Pfizer shots and stumped for them on tv before witnessing his dad die from the shots and looking at new and more evidence.
  • 2 6
flag jclnv (Dec 20, 2022 at 14:39) (Below Threshold)
 @kingtut87: I think his reasons were that it was one of the least (to his knowledge) compromised by corporate pharma.
  • 5 8
 @padkinson: and GB News, John Campbell, Russell Brand, and even Fox news.

What a shill for alternative media and it's massive funding arm he is. Why doesn't he just go along with the pharma industrial complex and state funded media like everyone else. Then we could trust him.
  • 8 5
 @jclnv: its hard to take anything seriously when it's published in a journal with 0 impact factor and one that isn't in the field of study. Excuses about compromised journals doesn't do you favours.
  • 4 5
 @kingtut87: Here's one of the worlds most respected medical journals and why you wouldn't publish in them if you're not playing the game - www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9980015/26-Lancet-scientists-trashed-theory-Covid-leaked-Chinese-lab-links-Wuhan.html
  • 6 1
 @jclnv: the Daily Mail? I'll pass thanks.
  • 2 4
 @kingtut87: Would you prefer a State or Gates funded media outlet lol
  • 1 0
 @jclnv: bet they don't pay wall their propaganda?
  • 14 0
 The data is clear, folks. The next time I see another mountain biker on the trail there’s an 80% chance they are a crackpot.

This is based on my extensive anecdotal evidence found right here in the pinkbike comments.
  • 20 5
 Welcome to Pinkbike where you get your daily dose of climate change and vaccine science curated by true experts in the field.
  • 2 0
 Don't you wanna just dive right in? So exciting!
  • 12 15
 I know. People are utterly clueless as to the motivations of the green and pharma industrial complexes. They think these entities and institutions actually give a shit about the planet and peoples health and they accuse those saying they exist for corporate profit and wealth transfer to be conspiracy theorists.
  • 1 12
flag kokofosho (Dec 20, 2022 at 15:08) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: only cucked Libs are under the delusion that capitalism is good for everyone. Clearly capital is driving most peoples decisions.
  • 6 7
 @jclnv: don't you look forward to pay your fair share of personal CO2 tax when buying meat, going on vacation or filling up your car in order to save the world from climate change?
Driving more than 10km a day in a personal car is selfish and has to be punished.
Don't mind the people imposing these rules are flying in private jets to live in beach front estates on their private islands which are supposed to be under water by 2030.
  • 6 8
 @mazze: That’s just the kind of conspiracy a climate denier would believe in. Next you’re going to say the government will freeze my CBDC’s because I liked a YT video that said increased Co2 lags behind temp increase in ice core and tree ring data ;-)

Do you not wonder when they’re going to get the game though? The media/government/institutional propaganda has done such a number on the masses. They actually believe the elite establishment acts in their interests to the point that they openly vote for enslavement. It’s even more insidious than 1984 IMO.
  • 3 5
 @mazze: yet somehow you believe this whole fake pandemic and covid vaccine that's been planned since 2007 are unrelated?
In the sake of not arguing with you look up Claus Schwab you've all know a Harari and the world economic forum
  • 6 1
 @jclnv: man of I could freeze your CBDCs I would. I would have to find out what they are first bit I would
  • 3 4
 @fotop: I take it the discreet sarcasm in our communication must've slipped your perception? Wink
  • 74 63
 No evidence of heart issues after the jab? Now that's a bold statement when there are. I believe
over 25 Canadian doctors between 25-59 died suddenly with no known reason and kids dropping dead during sports. Yep nothing to see here carry on.
  • 70 35
 Hey man, its not cool to spread misinformation online. Peoples health and lives are at risk. The data so graciously provided to us by Pfizer shows no correlation between their latest mRNA treatment and heart conditions in healthy young men. Its not like they would lie to us for profit. Its not like they paid the largest criminal fraud fine in history, that was billions of dollars. Its not like they sued to keep their data secret for 75 years. Its not like they are given immunity from lawsuits.
  • 29 9
 There have been some interesting discussions about this exactly, and the most nuanced were done by those who examined the relative and absolute risks of COVID infection (and its potential acute impacts on the cardiovascular system) versus potential risks from vaccines (and the specific types of vaccine administered). The TL;DR was that, irrespective of age above ~mid twenties, the absolute risk of cardiovascular complications from a COVID infection (even amongst healthy individuals) was significantly greater than the potential complications from the vaccine.

Because of the way in which some vaccines work its been suggested that some people who may face adverse effects were, due to genetic or other reasons, at an unknown but increased risk of more severe COVID as well. If you're going to have this conversation, its important to remember and consider that COVID also carried cardiovascular, respiratory, systemic inflammatory and neurological risks to people - including healthy and young populations - as well.

Not here to tell anyone what to do. But your supposition/assumption is that "pro-vaccine" people are ignoring some data that you find concerning. Meanwhile, you are also ignoring the COVID mortality data and committing the same "sin", if you will. As many will say, there is no perfect, only tradeoffs. If, for an otherwise healthy, 30-year-old male there is a 1% risk of complications from COVID-19 and a 0.1% risk of complications from a COVID vaccine, then you should take the vaccine all day. (This is not factual - but an illustration of how you might think about risk).
  • 23 24
 @hamncheez: Agree, be careful, it's not like they said you can't spread when jabbed so protect others....wait, wait, nope....it's more like 99% effective, wait.....nope, 98..96...94...86...70 .... 65.....wait, 63,are we now below 50%. LOL. Best Circus we all have experienced over the last couple of years.
  • 15 4
 @hamncheez: If you can’t trust the government or pharmaceutical companies then who can we trust???
  • 22 26
flag BMXJJ327 (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:39) (Below Threshold)
 @KJP1230: The part that gets me is that you can still get C*VID even after you get the vaccine. So if you got the vax AND can still get c*vid then you unnecessarily increased your risk of a negative outcome.
  • 20 15
 @KJP1230: None of that is true. We have no idea what is true because Pfizer's data STILL isn't publicly available and they have a history of lying over and over again.
  • 17 21
flag rockandride6 FL (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:47) (Below Threshold)
 @BMXJJ327: That's absolute garbage. The evidence (both published evidence and my own personal observations) pretty clearly show that when you get COVID (because you most likely will) your outcome is significantly better if you've gotten the vaccine. In my entire social/family circle I know 3 people who were hospitalized with COVID. Those 3 people all did not have the vaccine. Of the 20+ others I know who got COVID (I stopped counting) 18 of them were vaccinated and did not end up in the hospital. 2 of them were not vaccinated and also did not end up in the hospital. But 3 for 3 hospitalizations (one nearly died) is pretty compelling reason to get the damn vaccine.
  • 5 2
 @BMXJJ327: Well of course you can still get it!
  • 12 5
 @rockandride6: Please. Don't forget your booster.
  • 12 4
 @KJP1230: by covid mortality rate, you mean Mortality WITH covid rate?
  • 11 6
 @rockandride6: This isn't entirely true. The latest data is showing boosted individuals are more likely to contract the virus. That analysis is also ignoring the costs of the new mRNA treatment, and only focusing on the benefits.

The "costs" of getting the treatment(s) aren't clear because the drug companies that developed them, that were allowed to conduct their own clinical trials, and that are immune from liability, have not made their data public, and as mentioned previously one of them sued to keep it private for 75 years.
  • 7 5
 @rockandride6: my personal observation (which means as little as yours do) shows that the more shots you get, the more likley you are to catch covangus
  • 17 10
 @rockandride6: my mom was double vaxxed and died in hospital from covid.
My family all non vaxxed and all got covid the same week and back to normal in a week.
Good enough reason to not get the experimental jab...
  • 19 7
 @hamncheez: With due respect, there is substantial 3rd party data regarding vaccine efficacy, side effects, etc. from dozens of nations, institutions and governments around the globe. Not having Pfizer's data is a poor excuse for ignoring 10's if not 100's of thousands of other, independent studies from across the globe.

Shockingly, the people walking around with a smug disposition and accusing everyone else of being "sheep" are, themselves, falling into a specific narrative propagated by a vocal minority. And yet you speak with such confidence about a topic for which, by your own admission, you feel like you don't have the data.

My only point is that there is a methodology for how to evaluate and consider risk (and can be applied to many areas of life). Even my explanation above is too reductive. But I wanted to provide a base-level primer on HOW to think about these things.
  • 11 7
 @BMXJJ327: The concept that you can still get a disease after getting a vaccine is not at all new. Some vaccines are completely effective against their target virus (there are a variety of factors which affect this efficacy), others are partially effective and/or can only be relied upon to reduce the probability of severe infection. Beyond that, there are plenty of viruses for which vaccines are wholly ineffective.

Again, none of this is new. Not even a little bit. I am not here to defend the messaging at various points throughout the pandemic - but, personally, my doctor made it very clear when we were discussing the vaccine options in May 2021 that I should expect some degree of protection from symptomatic infection and reasonable protection from the potential complications/morbidity of COVID. To me, that was pretty much spot on with the data at the time and over the 18 months since we had that chat.
  • 16 11
 @KJP1230: There is not "substantial 3rd party data" because the virus and subsequent treatments are only 2-3 years old. We have no idea what will happen because its too young (which is why normally pharmaceutical products go thru decades of evaluation).

Additionally, around the world, more and more governments are pausing their treatment recommendations for young men (like Finland, Sweden, Denmark, etc) because there is some signal that heart injury is a legitimate risk factor from the treatment, while contracting COVID for young people is virtually risk free (also ignoring that the latest booster appears to increase your chance of contracting COVID).

ADDITIONALLY, nearly all discussion on this subject is so taboo that reporting a treatment injury is like a woman reporting sexual harassment in 1950s corporate America. If you report on your injury on social media, there was a time when your post would be taken down. Every "authority" figure said injuries and negative outcomes are a conspiracy theory. You were bullied, told you were a science denier, and ostracized from polite society. When my mom got her booster, got so sick I had to take her to the ER with a fever of 106 and her lungs shutting down (SPO2 in the low 80s and dropping) it took hours for her to regain consciousness. When she did come around, the ER doc was holding her hand and trying to comfort her. He literally said, "Well that was rough, but at least you're protected now".

Given that climate, with studies that by their nature are forced to rely on self-reported data, what is the quality of these studies going to be?
  • 12 4
 @hamncheez: It does not take very long to arrive at worthwhile data when the datasets themselves are enormous. Whether it be the COVID-19 disease itself or the various vaccines - they have both impacted the entire globe and have produced epidemiological data based on examining datasets of millions, if not billions, of people. So to say that there is not data is simply errant.

I am not disagreeing that one should consider evidence. However, fully 99% of people that I encounter who are ardent skeptics are wholly unqualified to evaluate the safety of Advil, much less COVID-19 and vaccines.

By the way, I completely agree that the current data DOES suggest that, perhaps, younger populations should not receive the vaccine. I'm well aware of the DATA-DRIVEN DECISION MAKING regarding the potential risks of the vaccine to sub-18 year old populations, weighed against the absolute risks of COVID-19.
  • 10 11
 @KJP1230: You are correct, the concept that you can still catch a virus after vaccination is not new. Why, then, did fauci, the media establishment, our president, etc. tell us that this vaccine stops transmission and 100% protects us from covangus? and why were people who actually spoke common knowledge smeared and de-platformed?

oh, of course, you aren't here to defend the "bad messaging," just to smear those that got it right
  • 15 10
 @hamncheez: It's much easier to fool people than convince them that they've been fooled.
  • 8 2
 @beetardfoozer: None of what I said smears anyone - categorically, I take issue with your assertion that you or people similar "got it right". Based on the data available to me, I don't believe you did.

Keep in mind, I AM a skeptic (of just about everything). I just got done telling 'hamncheez' that I agree that the potential benefits do not seem to outweigh the risks for some populations - specifically young (20ish years old) healthy populations. That said, I have not been convinced that the risks v benefits suggest that one should avoid getting vaccinated beyond that. Similarly, I am concerned about the hypothesis that those who may be most susceptible to vaccine complications are also most susceptible to COVID complications. That is entirely possible, if not probable, and would seriously distract from the aggregate benefits of the vaccine for the broader population.

As always, happy to update my thoughts as more data becomes available.
  • 6 6
 It is almost like there has been a global pandemic that has been shown to increase the likelihood of heart disease...
  • 7 8
 @KJP1230: Thats the thing- the data is so sparse almost no decisions were data driven. Yes, we are starting to get population level data now, but when mandates, government-directed social media censorship, and travel restrictions were being put in place there was no data. Pfizer was forced to admit that they had 0 data showing that their treatment prevents the spread of COVID19, yet every politicians was saying "get vaccinated to stop the spread. Get vaccinated to protect grandma".

Even now, with our huge population dataset, excess mortality is being ignored. An incredible decline in fertility rates is being ignored. These two civilization-spanning events are much more correlated with the rollout of the mRNA treatments than with COVID itself. A possible difference-in-difference estimator could be Africa, where the mRNA treatment penetration is under 20% and there doesn't appear to be excess mortality nor fertility decline. Is it 100% caused by these treatments? Impossible to say now, but if you even suggest it or inquire about it your comments risk getting "moderated".
  • 5 2
 At the end of the day this needs to be an individual decision. Clearly the science is starting to change as many countries are telling younger males to maybe hold off on boosters. It's not your job to police other people's medical decisions. It's no wonder why people have lost faith in the experts. But doubling down and insulting people for noticing the inconsistencies only makes it worse. I think we could have had way higher vaccine uptake with a more level headed approach.
  • 7 3
 @KJP1230: There is a cohort study of 590,976 adults in the Journal of Clinical Medicine that has found there was NO CHANGE in myocarditis and pericarditis between those infected with COVID and those uninfected in an all-unvaccinated population. The dataset is from 2020, when vaccines were not around yet.
The TL;DR is, you're simply regurgitating manicured media campaigns about "significantly greater risk of cardiovascular complications from a covid infection" without having a clue or any data to prove it.
Smells like confirmation bias to me.
  • 8 7
 @KJP1230: you're right about the fact that there is enough data. It's just that an objective discussion about it is not permitted.
Having had a look at the data, you certainly realized that there is a huge elephant in the room in the shape of a continuous and HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT excess death rate ever since the mass roll-out, wayy higher than the 2020 COVID delta-variant baseline data on an unvaccinated population -- like double digit percentage-wise higher. Under normal circumstances this is regarded a statistically impossible deviation and therefore it has to be explained by some sort of event/change of circumstances.
It has been established that those excess deaths can explicitly NOT be explained by covid, so this is not it. What is it then?! And why is this not the absolute dominant topic in public discourse?
Sure, you could argue that the certified vaccine deaths for North America are only in the mid 5-digit realms as of yet, but then again, you're probably well-informed enough to know that real numbers are likely between 10x and 100x higher (this, too, is a well established statistical fact) for the simple reason that only 1 to 10% of vaccine induced deaths are correctly reported and it's not an easy task to have a vaccine related death actually categorized as such in the first place.
Hypothetically, let's assume only 1% of vaccine deaths are recognized, that's roughly 40k deaths times 100 and, thus, we arrive at 4 million potential deaths or close to 1% (more like 0.66%) of the entire North American population. Mind you, there was *only* 1.4 million covid deaths in North America, and that number is known to be exaggerated.
  • 4 9
flag Kamperk87 (Dec 20, 2022 at 17:32) (Below Threshold)
 @mazze: Dude this is a mountain bike website. No one cares if you are pro or anti vax. Get a life.
  • 10 6
 @Kamperk87: how about you skip the comments you're not interested in and move on, then?
We're having a public argument. Feel free to find another thread or go pick a wheel size and be a dick about it.
  • 14 0
 I'd worry, but my addictions to whiskey, tacos, and xbox keep my inner elite athlete on the inside
  • 10 0
 30 year old male here who just had an ablation to correct for exercise induced afib. Reasonably fit, qualified for Boston this year, Emerald mtn epic “king of the boat” podium last year. That sort of thing.
It’s tough getting reliable information even straight from cardiologists. One suggested I take up golf. This post is great but I think the science is still catching up to the explosion in popularity of things like ultra running. Hopefully more will become evident in the next 5 or 10 years. For now quality of life > the length of it.
  • 1 0
 pushing 60 and have had 2 x ablations in last year for both AF's (atrial flutter & fib) after 25yrs of endurance sport, initially triathlons evolving into mtb.
Your right that the medical information is limited and somewhat inconclusive, but there is association between endurance sport and arrhythmia. About a 8-10% increased risk from those who participate, from what I could find. It's not an area that appears to be well studied but I am aware of a long term study that is underway in Australia, and like you say this is still approx 10yrs away.

Like a lot of things, in the moment you do not even consider the risk. The assumption is that endurance sport is completely healthy, but in the long term it might bite back.

Happy to be functional again, out riding at reduced duration and effort (e-mtbr now), and thankful for the quality of life the ablations have restored.
  • 18 8
 Just read an article from Alex Berenson about high level doctors who were big proponents of the vaccine in Australia and UK are now reversing their stance. The clown show is starting to unravel. Canadian government trying to implement censorship laws shows how far they are willing to go to keep it going.
  • 14 4
 Anyone who is interested in high-quality information on health-related topics can check out www.peterattiamd.com. Dr. Attia curates a carefully vetted website and podcast series.
  • 2 1
 Absolutely love this podcast. It's the only podcast I listen to without fail. Smile
  • 11 9
 One and ONLY - CDC, thrusted name in Science. LOL
  • 16 2
 Careful with Attia and Huberman. I used to take their word as gospel, and then they both talked about a topic i am fairly knowledgable in, and realized that their info isn't necessarily as vetted as it appears.
  • 23 22
 The fact that those who die suddenly after vaccination may have died from the hidden effects of the Covid vaccine on their heart is thus now firmly established in the medical literature. The big remaining question is how often it occurs.
  • 2 0
 On Dr. Attia's podcast, he recently discussed this very topic with a guest. If memory serves, the overall probability of having a cardiac event goes down materially as one exercises more (to a limit); however, the probability that a well trained athlete has a cardiac event during, or immediately after vigorous exercise (if they are going to have one at all) is much higher than in the general population.

So much lower overall risk, but if they are to have, it's more likely to be during or immediately after a big effort.There is a 'name' for this...welcome corrections if anyone is familiar with this topic
  • 13 14
 @mattmach7: Sub-clinical ("hidden effects) vs clinical myocarditis. The numbers are potentially staggering.

Many cardiologists are raising alarms, especially Dr Aseem Malhotra.
  • 13 22
flag mattmach7 (Dec 20, 2022 at 8:56) (Below Threshold)
 @radpagoat: More are waking up to see they have been fooled, but sorry folks. TOOOOO FU>>>> LATE to the party now. Go ride your bike, could be your last one. Merry Christmassssss to ALL.
  • 3 0
 @skiandmtbdirtbag: Genuinely curious: which topic did you disagree with Peter Attia on?

As for Huberman, I really like the guy - but he is very "eager" and I only have about 70% confidence in what he says. He seems much more willing to lean into single/non-replicated studies and draw conclusions. I think he means well, but he's a bit more "on the edge".
  • 18 6
 @radpagoat: I recently had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Malhotra. Dr. McCullough too. Those guys are heroes! Not surprised they aren't referenced in this article.
  • 5 0
 @skiandmtbdirtbag: I agree, but Huberman seems to spout a lot more pseudoscience that Attia, who seems to be a lot more grounded in research and traditional medicine. At least from what I can tell in my listening to him.
  • 17 4
 @westeast: It sounds like Dr McCullough, one of the most published and prominent cardiologists in the world "pre-covid" is about to lose his license to practice medicine for telling the observable truth. Always go with your conscience folks - the only thing you take with you when you drop your meat suit is your integrity or lack of it.
  • 3 0
 @briceps: this is definitely true. It stems from the fact that in order to get an audience they both have to lean, particularly Huberman, into more ‘ secrets your doctor isn’t telling you’ territory.
  • 1 0
 @skiandmtbdirtbag: Curious. I find that Huberman and Attia were VERY nuanced in their discussion of HRT - especially the importance of managing well beyond just testosterone, estrogen, progesterone. Very important to weigh the roll of SHBG, HCG, Thyroid, aromatization and 5-a-reducatase implications on DHT and derivative sterols.

If anything, Attia is suggesting that most of these HRT clinics are operating completely irresponsibly and not looking at the "whole picture". Then again, I could be confusing other, longer-form discussion that Attia has had with the conversation he had with Huberman.
  • 19 15
 @radpagoat: Stop quoting those world leading cardiologists. We need to fully support the industrial pharma complex that created these vaccines in record time and then asked the courts to bury the trial data that showed zero statistical benefit and serious adverse events profile for 75 years.

We must fully trust these companies that have payed some of the largest criminal law suits in US history and produce drugs with side effects that are the third largest cause of death behind heart disease and cancer.

People form some very strange alliances....
  • 1 0
 @KJP1230: @KJP1230: 'If anything, Attia is suggesting that most of these HRT clinics are operating completely irresponsibly and not looking at the "whole picture"'


He is 100% correct in this.

'Very important to weigh the roll of SHBG, HCG, Thyroid, aromatization and 5-a-reducatase implications on DHT and derivative sterols.

Also correct.

They both (huberman far more) state elements about all of the above as if they are fact, when there is infact much dispute from within the HRT, endo and urologist community. I will have to relisten for specifics, but in particular Huberman takes anecdotal and somewhat subjective experience and extrapolates an awful lot. I like both of them, and to an extent they are both victim of the media world we are in, they need to appear to provide info that is not available anywhere else in order to grow an audience.
  • 9 9
 @mattmach7: There's no question of how often it occurs. One is more likely to be struck by lightening 3 times than to die from the mRNA vaccine. This was well established early on with legitimate studies.
  • 2 0
 @briceps: Agree Huberman seems pretty quick to get excited about the latest fad bio hack Attia is far more critical.
  • 1 0
 @skiandmtbdirtbag: out of curiosity, which topic?
  • 4 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: Link?
  • 5 4
 @dualsuspensiondave: lol.legitimate studies.

Classic
  • 4 4
 @WkDayWarrior: Tell me that you’re ignorant without saying that you’re ignorant.
  • 5 7
 @dualsuspensiondave: yeah I'm ignorant. You need a study to tell you the likelihood of that huh.

And are those the same early studies that also told us that the vaccines stopped/vastly reduced transmission of the **virus**. Or that there was indeed no issues with younger males and heart issues after vax (oops), or that there is no issues with female fertility (oops x2!!) or infant deaths (please google infant death spikes in Scotland and how they refuse to even look to see if any vax relation just to spare the mothers they say).

Or when Anthony fauci said that masks didn't make any difference based on early studies? Until the gain-of-funtion abusing dickhead decided that he wanted it to?

You mean all these types of early studies?
  • 7 6
 @WkDayWarrior: Right wing conspiracy theory propaganda got to your head. Vaccines absolutely reduce transmission. A very small percentage of vaccinated males (0.00001 %) experienced heart issues that resided within 3 months. There are no issues with female fertility or infant deaths (those are all lies).

Bringing up Fauci clearly shows that you have no understanding of Science or medicine. You ever heard of Qanon? Or did you found it?
  • 4 2
 @dualsuspensiondave: War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. We have always been at war with East MAGA comrade.
  • 4 4
 @dualsuspensiondave: Where’s the data your data for all these garbage statements?
  • 6 6
 @dualsuspensiondave: I have zero idea of qanon and like any remotely intelligent person in this day and age, have no left or right leaning political affiliation.

However it's been proven down here where I live, where 96+%of all adults were coerced into vaccination, and where the virus is STILL running f*cking rampant, that it doesn't f*cking stop transmission and never has. In fact they went from shutting 10% of society in at home and telling everyone it was them who were spreading it and harming the vaxxed to record levels of cases and deaths in that 4 month period where only the vaxxed were allowed out. They also tried it with kids as well, **get then vaxxed because no one wants to see hundreds of kids in hospital etc etc** and when no kids did indeed really get sick never Mind in hospital.. to ** get kids vaxxed to save the elderly**

And even though the higher ups from Pfizer have told you all the vax is useless v omicron anyway (Albert bourla) and that they never tested for transmission (Janine small) anyway. You still think it stops transmission?

If you truly want to study it, don't listen to the media mouthpieces from big pharma or that lying fk Fauci (did he ever make his mind up on masks being useful or not BTW?) Look to Australia. And everything to do with covid, vaccine rates, covid cases after, how death rates spiralled etc. Don't listen to me just look to a country with a massive adult vaccine take up rate.

There is only one of us who has been conned/tricked by the media and it isn't me.
  • 6 5
 covidlive.com.au/qld

Ps Height of summer here. f*cking roasting. Allegedly good weather for naturally killing a natural virus... oops.

Over 90% vax rate. Cases sky high for us. As are numbers of people in hospital and ICU.

But yeah. It DEFINITELY absolutely for sure, reduces transmission.
  • 2 1
 @WkDayWarrior: That is weird because UV exposure/vitamin D was effective against the virus in a few studies. What’s the average age of the hospitalizations?
  • 4 0
 @jclnv: dude below is right. The ave age of covid deaths down here is HIGHER than normal ave death age Smile
  • 2 0
 @WkDayWarrior: Great job that they risked all those younger people with the ‘vaccines’ then...
  • 11 2
 My mother in law has been sedentary her whole life, and she keeps telling me that doing sports is going to have a repercussions in my later life and repercussions in my daughters growth (my eldest ditched the balance bike to the 16" at 3 and a half yo), she doesn't want her granddaughters to have "male bodies", pfff ignorance at its best.

That's why clickbaity titles like this one are so successful, people believe a lot of BS.
  • 13 0
 I'd rather die while living than live like I'm dying.
  • 9 0
 I've had a heart attack on the side of a mountain in Wales in Great Britain. I could have died. Some thoughts from it. 1) If your feeling ill dont go at the back going slow and get dropped on your own by your mates (I said to them go ahead I will be holding you up). 2) What you take with you could save your life. In hindsight a thermal blanket and some aspirin would have gone a long way. 3) Trail centres need to consider evacuation. We had to get people in to get Ambulance access to the location as all fire roads were locked! I was 48 years old no underlying medical conditions and had a medical every two years for a job in the merchant navy. There was no warning. I was a little overweight but could ride two to three times a week. No one has found a cause for what happened to me. I'm lucky to be out now recovering on an e bike!
  • 10 2
 This might be one of the best articles I’ve read on Pinkbike. Thanks for doing research and presenting it clearly! Imagine if there were more articles heavy on data like this .
  • 1 0
 It's an excellent article but man after reading just a bit I start thinking "hmm maybe my chest hurts a bit."
  • 6 0
 Call me skeptical, but whenever I hear about a young endurance athlete dying my first thought is what PEDs they’ve been taking. Not saying that’s the case for the person mentioned in the article, but we know that stimulants and drugs that increase hemocrit raise risk of cardiac events.
  • 17 11
 Wow this vaccine discussion...everybody typing away in their lab coats. Where I live there are heritage cemeteries from the turn of the century and some from the 40's. Usually around rural population booms, creation of the railways and mining industry. You know who is in these graves? Kids and young adults. You know how they died? Pneumonia. You know what they give kids nowadays? Vaccines for pneumonia and antibiotics for adults. Where is all the oUtRagE?!?
  • 4 1
 I'm outraged that kids have to survive in those places nowadays!
  • 2 0
 @browner: Oh ok, thanks for your input....Scotland.
  • 5 0
 At almost 50 I suffered a heart attack while mountain biking. The main symptoms were teeth and jaw pain. The more exertion the more pain. Felt like someone was trying to pry my teeth apart. Just a heads up guys. Pay attention to what your body is telling you. I ride EVERY single day now to keep the old ticker firing. I'll do an update in 50 years.
  • 5 0
 I have a friend that's a very decorated track cyclist. He's won the masters, national championships, even qualified for the Olympics in the 80's. He's raced weekly (April-September) for over 35 years. 3-4 years ago, he had a heart attack. Just out of the blue. He had a relaxed training schedule every year after he built the spring base miles. It happened towards the end of the season. I don't know think he's back racing, but that was the last person I would have ever picked for a heart attack. I also had friends in high school that were fit and developed heart problems and "retired" by their mid 20's. I think genetics play a part with endurance athletes.
  • 9 2
 Wow the upvotes and downvotes are not what I expected here. A stark contrast to what they would have been just a short time ago? Times have definitely changed.
  • 5 0
 As an individual with diagnosed HCM, the risk is real. I used to have boundless energy and would make a jump out of the smallest of rocks on any ride. I could also eat my weight in whatever fatty foods I wanted and never gain weight. When I turned 24-25, I seemed to slow down. I figured it was simply due to getting old. I stopped enjoying riding my bike for a time, longing for the times when adrenaline fueled each ride with speed and spontaneity. Instead, my riding became more of a "I'll hit that next time", or "I'm too tired today". After my siblings having experienced heart symptoms (one died of sudden cardiac arrhythmia), I consulted with a cardiologist and electrophysiologist who both recommended an ICD (as described above). My wife was scared spitless for me, however, I looked at it as a new potential outlook on life. I went into surgery with a resting heart rate of 38 bpm (at 1pm) and came out with a 'doctored' resting rate of 60 bpm. I came out of surgery like I had just drank a redbull, with loads of energy and I was super hungry. While my energy still isn't quite what it used to be, it is night and day different from just before my surgery. After going easy for a time, I have the full green light from my doctor to ride my bike and even race. I have had to realign my likes of riding to not long for the days when I could go full out for 5 minutes straight to slay a downhill trail. That's not possible anymore. But I have still found joy in riding my bike by focusing on the fact that I can still ride and still have fun at a slower pace. I ride confidently knowing that the last thing to give out on my ride (with my ICD) is my heart.
  • 11 6
 Don't fall in the division trap!. These are personal level decisions at the end (if not forced)... Vaccinated ones should face their "benefits and risks", let them experiment with it and do their research.
The unvaxx should be also be respected, no only because it's their personal level decisions too, but also by keeping true to that against all the clear "sponsored" media agenda forcing 100% vaccination policy nonsense.
We are smart and kind people in majority, we love nature by default as part of our hobby/lifestyle and we understand the bullshit of Babylonian/corporative sponsors... That's why we run to the mountains to enjoy real life, blessing (God/Universe/Creator) for that opportunity... Even when we face death close situations into the forest laws.
Love everyone same as you love your entire self. Jesus loves you, and you know it.
  • 6 1
 Many heart problems can be undiscovered until its too late. A young lad in the South of England collapsed on a ride and if it wasn't for the quick minded guys who were with him that administered CPR and the availability of a defibrillator it could have been so much worse! Turns out the lad had an undiscovered heart defect. You could never test for this unless there was known hereditary issues. One of the comments on the families social media was "did he have a COVID vaccination" If you have suffered from any issues related to the Covid Vaccine then you really are unlucky. With any medicine or vaccine there are side effects, some much worse than others! To be completely ignorant and exclaim that every problem you may have had since the Vaccine is related, you really need to take a step back and re-evaluate your life!
  • 6 0
 I mean yeah, if you take EPOs not quite right and then your heart explodes, I'd say you're an elite athlete at a higher risk of a heart problem!
  • 7 0
 Edit: I should have said a cocktail of EPOs, testosterone, HGH, maybe an asthma inhaler or the occasional amphetamine for good measure, and your heart might explode. My bad!
  • 1 0
 @j-t-g: Not so sure about HGH once someone posted here in PB a link to this article, never more relevant, and a very good reading: www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/drug-test
  • 1 0
 @miguelcurto: A classic! Icarus and The Doper Next Door are good fun as well!
  • 10 2
 Great article, thank you @seb-stott
  • 4 0
 It is an interesting question, but the commentary on the 2015 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) is actually incorrect. Yes, when you look at the graph you see the risk of mortality increasing to 0.69 for the category that exercises the most. But when analyzing a study you cannot just look at averages, you need to consider the variability around the averages. In the graphs those are the vertical lines that, roughly speaking, indicate how uncertain you are on the true value of the average in the overall population.

Notice how wide the bar is for the last category. It is probably because there were fewer people exercising at those levels, and that variability makes the difference "insignificant", using statistical jargon. And indeed the JAMA study concluded that "There was no evidence of harm at 10+ times the recommended minimum (0.68, 0.59–0.76)"

By the way quoting average (or a single data point!) with no regards to the variability, is the main reason why the timed runs appearing on Pinkbike tests are most lileky meaningless. People look at differences of seconds in single runs, without realizing that those differences might mean nothing about the performance of a bike and just reflect random variability.
  • 7 3
 We have known for years and years that long term overtraining will kill you, and that sports can reveal congenital cardiovascular problem, usually when the athlete drops dead. We are also figuring out that the rushed-to-market vasheens, produced by an opportunistic profit-driven industry, approved by regulatory industries that have been paid off and absolved of responsibility, aren't the super-effective risk-free godsends that we were told they are. Both can be true
  • 7 1
 GREAT article Sebb, so much so that it's one of the better articles I've ever read relating to the risks of exercise and this includes reading journal articles. Well done!
  • 11 3
 Climate change is causing all kinds of health problems lately.
  • 2 0
 Amen!
  • 4 0
 Well written article that reinforces what we pretty much already know: Exercise is good for you. Too much of anything can be bad. In general, anyone who exercises 10 or so hours a week, is also not going to be severely overweight, eat all their meals at fast food chains, or be smoking like a chimney. All tend to go hand in hand.

We all die of something. The chances of developing a heart issue or suffering sudden cardiac death from riding too much are pretty low. Even for those that do, I would argue, they have at least lived a full life, which to me is better than sitting around doing nothing.
  • 5 1
 Great article, seems pretty well researched. I was recently diagnosed with a Left Bundle Branch Block, which is also a heart condition and very uncommon for someone my age (45). The cardiologist had no idea why I have this, but mentioned that excess strenuous exercise might have contributed.

I am soooo tired of discussions about covid vaccines. Please take that crap elsewhere, nobody is changing standpoints anymore anyway.
  • 4 0
 Lost an old friend to this just over a year ago. Super fit, healthy an FAST! a proper XC whippet. He raced for a national level XC team.
I was about 8 when my parents divorced an we moved to the other side of town. I was taken in by a group of lads all on Raleigh Burners, Falcon Pro Freesstylers while I had my ratty beat up Team Murry my folks brought over from the States when we moved back to the UK.
We would use old pallets, car wheels an anything we could find to build little kick start style trials out side Jason's house. We would ride miles around an out of town looking for things to ride down or jump off. I remember one day, we nearly made it aboot 6 or 7 miles through the woods to the next town over cos they had a full BMX track! We had to turn around an get bollocking from our folks as we didn't make it back before dark, pretty much the only rule we had to live by in those days...

We grew up, discovered cars an girls and moved away etc etc..

40 years later, I knew Jason was riding as he popped up on strava but, with me being a 4X, DH degenerate free rider an Jason being the XC / road super athlete we never got back in touch other than A quick YO JAY! as he flew past at double my speed on our local forest loop training.

One November day I got home from training. To the news that Jason had passed out an passed away from sudden heart failure while out on the same loop at the same time, just in a different part of the woods......

Jason Nunn For EVER
See you in Val Hala brother

P.S we had a ride out for J an raised over £9k for East Anglia Air Ambulance
  • 4 0
 Just taken time to scroll through all the messages, seems like everyone has got something to say about the vaccine. But I think people a missing the bigger point of undiagnosed heart conditions which folk may already have.
I found ut I had Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy after collapsing at the top of a climb after chasing mates up the hill as you do, cut a long story short I got lucky come to and eventually had an ICD fitted, initially told to quit mountain biking completely because of the risk I ended up getting into ebikes back in 2015,(another long story) anyway I carried on with condition and got myself fitter via ebike and conventional bikes. Change of lifestyle, less alcohol no smoking etc. Come round to covid I got the vaccines and I'm still here, could it be a coincidence people who have had the vaccine have underlying Heart Conditions? As the video says HCM is 1-500. If you push yourself hard then it's probably worth while go getting an ECG to check yourself out even if you don't have the vaccine, then have further checkups periodically. I know there will always be this 'thing' with the vaccine, but I don't think it's quite as bad as people worry about. Peace out ✌️
  • 2 2
 Well said Howard , jail fauci is a new religion now I’m afraid.
  • 6 3
 Well when you have all news outlets and information being controlled, for your safety, you only read and hear what is deemed safe and effective by those at the top. Discussions close down, free flowing information stops, and doctors/scientists regardless of success are deemed false news unless following the script.

There is no doubt a shift in the health and well being of the population, just look at insurance companies data of death from unkown causes.

There is so much information out there if you just open your eyes…

www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2020/trusted-news-initiative
  • 6 0
 It is strange, that androgen abuse was not discussed in depth, because it is a well documented cause of HCM.
  • 8 2
 In other news getting vaccinated reduces the risk of a car accident……. Science says so..
  • 10 7
 To know the truth you only need to listen to Pfizer spokespeople talk about "sales" and "market opportunities". Pfizer is not concerned about your health or your safety, they are only concerned about money full stop and lying, cheating, and harming are acceptable means.

www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history#:~:text=(hereinafter%20together%20%22Pfizer%22),the%20Justice%20Department%20announced%20todayhereinafter%20together%20%22Pfizer%22.

www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/pfizer-agrees-to-pay-60m-to-settle-foreign-bribery-case/2012/08/07/a2426f5e-e0b6-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_story.html

www.nytimes.com/2004/05/14/business/pfizer-to-pay-430-million-over-promoting-drug-to-doctors.html
  • 2 0
 I remember reading about Sir Steve Redgrave training to such a degree for the Olympic rowing team that when he retired he had to do several years of heavy exercise gradually decreasing in intensity to train his heart back into a normally active life in order to prevent massive heart failure...
  • 6 4
 That was one of the best written articles on any medical subject I have read. Well done Mr. Stott! There is so much health information available now, but what is really needed is writers who can sift through it to offer give the average person enough information to make good decisions. After getting literary recommendations from Kazimer last week, I’m thinking pinkbike is the only source of information I need.
  • 2 0
 I friend of mine died last year. He was a massive ultra runner and swimmer. He had a heart attack in his early 50’s. A uni mate died last year in his 30’s and was a hyper fit ultra runner. A work colleague died in his 30’s a few years ago with the same sporting inclination.
A good mate is an olympic running coach. He will tell you that huge amounts of high level constant exercise is bad for you due to heart scaring. Do the exercise but put the rest in as well. You are a human not a machine and even they need maintenance.
  • 6 0
 Well written article… thanks for the effort
  • 2 0
 Tall, male, overtraining, and developed arrhythmia (LAF) in my fifties, and nearly died.

But healthy all the time and still fast enough Wink , if I don't forget to take my pills and don't dehydrate.
Stroke risk is still there, so next year when I'm 65 I will take some more pills...
  • 19 13
 100% safe and effective! This article sponsored by Pfizer.
  • 4 1
 YES! Thank you for publishing this. I studied sport science and remember this well. We should also talk about kids in sport and the effect overtraining our youth too early. I was shocked even more by that one.
  • 2 0
 pushing your body beyond anaerobic levels regularly can and will lead to ELEVATED heart rates and that is a fact. This can be a life shortening event one should not ignore. This is why I stopped racing for pleasure a decade ago my doctor warned me of the developing issue I was having. This is a seldom discussed problem.
  • 6 0
 Sooooo..... about that internal headset routing....
  • 2 0
 Thanks for the well-researched and informed article, Seb. Although, it's a lot of words to essentially say the same thing everyone has been saying for a long time. "More exercise is good for you, some exercise is best for you.".
  • 5 0
 Oh sheit someone mentioned Covid Vaccines in an article...Its all downcountry from here in the comments section.
  • 9 7
 I'm 41, 3 weeks ago, after 2x 50km e-mtb rides over the week-end (the 1st one easy, on flat, the 2nd one much more intense, but still, nothing harder for my heart than whatever I'm used to do) I started to have pain in the chest, around the heart.

The pain lasted 3-4 days continually, and took around 2 weeks to disappear completely. But today after a bit more mtb, I can feel a light pain again.

I got 2 shots of the vaccine, but I got covid anyway.

So of course I may have ridden too hard, but it's quite suspicious that it would happen now when I never had any heart issue in the past.

Gotta read this article meticulously.
  • 23 1
 Umm, I'd highly suggest going to a doctor if you're having chest pain that lasts for multiple days in a row.
  • 4 2
 How would you know if you had heart issues in the past? The reason symptoms arise are always issues that started in the past. That's one of the dangerous parts about having heart issues. Most people don't know that they have them.
  • 2 3
 @mikekazimer: Yeah you're right, sorry forgot to mention it, after a few days I got to the doctor who told me I should have called the paramedics who would've asked a bunch of questions to see if it was worth coming, then a few days ago the cardiologist said there was nothing to worry about (got ECG and ultrasound), but I still have to do a scanner to be sure the arteries are ok, and as said I still have very mild pain.

Too bad I totally forgot to ask the cardio about covid and vaccine, though he might have evade the issue.
  • 3 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: Noticeable issues if you will (except maybe what looked like an anxiety episode last year). I asked for a cardio check up several times in the past (even with nothing noticeable, just because I know that when climbing a mountain my heart may be at around 180bpm for a long while) and the doctor answer was always sort of "no need for it, you're young, healthy, sporty"... (yeah, until you're dead) and this more or less explain my laid back attitude when I should've been much more worried.

But this time around they were much more prone to give me an appointment, so either that was indeed scarry, and/or the whole covid thing has clearly increased heart issues rates.
  • 3 0
 @mikekazimer: sounds like medical advice
  • 6 2
 Why am I getting downvoted ?
Cuz I sound like an antivax cuz' I talk about the vaccine in the same post as my chest pain ?
How would I be, I even wrote I got 2 shots, dummies.
In the same sentence I say I got covid anyway, which could, as per the article, be the cause of my chest pain.

Dummies.
  • 6 0
 Discussion is dead, single minded bias is in.
  • 2 0
 I'm at 20+ hours a week. But my intensity is pretty damn low, so I'm not even worried.

Then again, I wasn't worried when my intensity was high. Better to of a heart attack having fun than die of a heart attack watching the real housewives on TV
  • 2 0
 So all the COVID stuff aside. At what point is too much riding bad for you? Most of my rides are 3-5 hr rides in zone 2, a little zone 3 which I just recently started tracking. I race a little but I truly just enjoy riding my bike for those extended periods of time and adventuring, finding new routes, linking new routes together. I'm not out doing intervals, etc because it's not fun and I'm not taking racing that seriously. I'm starting to think having too much information at your disposal is bad. I never worried about this crap until I got a Garmin and HR monitor.
  • 4 2
 Conspiracy theory enters the American lexicon in 1964 about a grassy Knoll in Texas after JFK was assassinated

Conspiracy theory continues to be used American lexicon 2022. But now peoples voices can be silenced if someone doesn’t like what they read.

What is truth?
  • 16 13
 Hey PinkBike, since you were so afraid of giving any attention to Kyle Warner's (from Kyle and April on YouTube) experience with the jab previously, maybe now would be the time instead of gaslighting your userbase?
  • 15 6
 Agreed, PinkBike's silence has been noted, and I find it disgusting in how they can reap the benefits of multiple Kyle Warner features over the years but will not mention a thing about his ongoing health issues from the jab.
  • 8 5
 @survivalofthefattest: no doubt, Kyle is fighting a huge battle.
  • 6 6
 Or perhaps it's a mountain biking website and they would prefer to focus on that.
  • 6 6
 @Kamperk87: Perhaps a celebrity within the mountain bike community would be appropriate for a mountain biking website? They seemingly are open to discuss cardiovascular health as per this article after all.
  • 8 9
 @Torrrx: Yes this article is related to training. There are plenty of other online options to support your pro vax or anti vax views.
  • 7 7
 @Kamperk87: Shhh, less posting, go get your booster for the holidays Smile
  • 9 10
 @Torrrx: Most of us have moved on from Covid. There are some people unfortunately on both sides who are stuck in the past. What could have been great conversations about training got hijacked by a bunch of grunts who are here to push an unrelated agenda.
  • 1 3
 @survivalofthefattest: it appears sitting on the fence is their thing, a bit too nice for confrontation, it's about time they, and others, saw the big picture.
  • 4 2
 RIP Rab. I miss the days when dumb people had no soapbox. Realizing you are probably not smart enough to figure out almost anything is a sign of intelligence. Ask Socrates how it worked out exposing ignorance. Either way we are all ignorant so stay in your fuckin lane and ride your bike. Shut your mouth and try to be nice.
  • 9 3
 Canada is now known as New Klaus Schwabland.
  • 1 1
 National socialists at both poles.
  • 7 1
 bikes are fun!
  • 10 4
 Great work Seb
  • 1 0
 Thanks for pulling all this together! I train pretty hard (for me and for the time available) and this is something that has been on my mind for years. I've read most of these studies and conclusions before, but I think it's good for more people to see them. A big thing that I've tried to incorporate into my riding/training is to keep it to no more than 2 hard sessions a week and prioritize rest. Good news, the science also supports that this is a very effective training method, and helps limit over training.
  • 3 0
 If you are agree 14 to 35 in the UK you can get a free heart screening from Cardiac Risk in the Young. They tour sports centres around the UK. www.c-r-y.org.uk
  • 1 4
 Sounds like when they were giving women free mammograms to make sure no one had breast cancer and then they find out the radiation from the mammograms cause breast cancer still didn't stop some women from going in and getting two to three a year though stop putting so much faith in these doctors unless you're related to them they do not look at you as anything other than a fucking client and a payment on a overly priced car
  • 4 3
 Seb,

Thank you for publishing this. I've known endurance athletes that have died suddenly during events and no one seems to accept the answers. It's always easier to blame something that we don't understand than to accept an answer that we don't want.

He had an enlarged heart with scaring
But how could he? He was running the Pikes Peak Marathon again, how could he have underlying heart disease if he was so healthy?

He had an abnormal heart valve that lead to increased shearing forces on the aorta
That couldn't be the truth, he was in his 20s, something else must have happened.

He suffered a heart attack during a run, he had severe atherosclerotic disease
But he was skinny and fit, how could that be? Nevermind the genetic history of this disease in the family
  • 11 10
 You can’t tell if elite athletes are at higher risk because of the vaccine. And you may never know because there’s a lot of money at stake.
The only certainty is that Big Pharma has become richer than it already was by giving an experimental drug to millions without reporting its side effects and, this is the truly amazing thing, with very few people demanding that information and refusing to put that shit into their bodies.
And although it is touching to see the number of innocent souls out there, today the human being is basically a sheep with no ability to think for himself.
  • 4 0
 One way or another, it's going to kill you. Just go out and have fun riding your damn bike.
  • 2 0
 Lots and lots of data and vaxx arguing, down-voting, jabbing the dumpster fire. I'll leave you with one name: Tinker Juarez. Sorry if that broke all your data. Adios and Feliz navidad muchachos.
  • 8 4
 It’s easier to fool someone than it is to convince someone they have been fooled.
  • 1 0
 @pinkbike editors—why even include the first graph? It’s meaningless to 99% of your readers. You could easily recreate it with easily digestible metrics. Sorry, bad infographics (including good infographics that are not optimized for their intended audience) drive me up a wall. Rant over. Blood pressure stabilizing.
  • 1 0
 I was confused by the MET h/wk on the graph. I went to the link and found this:

The 2008 Physical Activity Guidelines for Americans recommended a minimum of 75 vigorous-intensity or 150 moderate-intensity minutes per week (7.5 metabolic equivalent hours per week (MET h/wk)) of aerobic activity for “substantial” health benefit, and suggested “additional” benefits by doing more than double this amount. However, the upper limit of longevity benefit or possible harm with more physical activity is unclear.

So if I am a total weekend warrior with one vigorous 2-hr MTB ride per week, that would put me in the 20 MET h/wk category, as I read it.
  • 7 3
 Is it rude to ask their jab status? I don't think so. They wanted to know mine before I was allowed into a pub.
  • 1 0
 I'm not sure why the comments section is so hot with this article. The article title starts with "Are Elite Athletes At Higher Risk..." My guess is that there are somewhere between 0 and none "Elite" athletes active in the Pinkbike comment sections! The Elite athletes are putting in base miles in Spain or Arizona. We are exercising our typing skills.
  • 5 0
 I learned the term "trueblood" from this comment section
  • 1 1
 Apparently not just a TV show!
  • 9 7
 The idea that only 30 in a million people get myocarditis from the vaccine, but everyone seems to know someone who got it doesn't add up. IMAGINE trusting Pfizer's documents more than your real world experiences.
  • 4 6
 Yup. Horizon is flat from where I'm standing, just saying. Nope, not interested in NASA's take.
  • 6 0
 It's a bit early to make any opinions on Pfizers documents for now. Give it 75 years or so first..
  • 5 1
 this comment section allows to calculate how much of PB audience are total morons Big Grin Def above average
  • 6 5
 I'm honestly not sure why anyone, at this point, wants to argue that the vaccine isn't possibly an issue here.

Countries in Europe have pulled back on mass vaccines in men under 30 for nearly a year. Not just one. But multiple. And iirc Denmark now saying no one under 50 needs any vaccines.

When countries admit that the vaccines can cause specific issues (heart) in specific cohorts (men under 30) then YOU should listen. It's really that simple.

As for those of you who like to say "but but my studies".. most of you can't read them, they are deliberately obtuse, if you want to see how studies are manipulated see the recent ones that say you are 5 times more likely to get POTS after the infection than the vaccine. Until you really delve into said study and realise that the sample size results were manipulated and nothing like the headlines that news took from it. Link below


youtu.be/Mfn63pd3wqk
  • 5 5
 Did anyone else notice how after Dr fauci got his covid vaccine he went on the news and was complaining about the opposite arm being a little sore aside from that did anyone else hear about the French prime minister macron actually faking taking the vaccine did anyone hear about pharmacists wondering why the piece of paper that's supposed to explain the risks of a vaccine cuz even a flu vaccine is 4% chance of killing you which is double the chance of a covid infection killing you anyway the paper was the size of a poster and it was completely blank did you hear about the German pharmacist who were giving her patients Saline after she noticed the senior citizens she was employed to care for were dying after giving them a covid vaccine she get over 10,000 people Saline they're all alive they may have died some of them from old age why would someone take that risk it's a conspiracy theory right or some of us care more about what's right then we do about fitting in with the group once again it's called the Milgram experiment and 9 out of 10 of you are followers.
  • 2 3
 I did not but good on that nurse for having a soul.
  • 5 5
 Pinkbike comments contain the essential wide range of opinions, ideas, jokes and gut feelings on so many topics. For years I have enjoyed reading the comments. Great to see a "jab" debate happening uncensored. Both sides need a voice. Keep it alive guys !
  • 3 1
 Athletes Heart. It's more of a combination of genetics and training. If you train hard. Get your heart checked. It's that easy.
  • 8 4
 I enjoyed this article and would read more like it. Cheers.
  • 8 4
 Thanks, Seb. That was great article.
  • 1 1
 So, where is this middle ground? They basically compare intensive sports with doing nothing at all. Ride your bike to the shops, to work, play outside, dance... And don't sit too much.

"People in this category tend to be successful"
You have success if you can achieve your goals. These goals are different for everyone and you should define them yourself. But if you can't balance your life, did you miss your goal or would it be a good idea to review your goals?
  • 1 1
 I took cycling as a remedy from work induced stress. So I tended to ride more and longer, there was no goal, just trying to break through that imaginary wall, where all that stress fell off. When riding with other guys, I always wanted to keep up with the fastest - uphill and downhill. I remember when my arrhythmia started, it was a hot day, and I kept my fullface helmet on to not let those fast guys go on an uphill section. Just a slight buzzing in my chest, and I nearly blacked out. Put my helmet off, and on I went... two years later it came again and I went to a doctor.
  • 3 0
 I have been meaning to pick up the Haywire Heart I heard about it a few years ago.
  • 19 19
 Great article and very informative.

NOTE: The average vaccine approval generally takes between 8-10 years to be deemed "safe for public use". If the government cannot successfully run a post office, do not believe them when they tell you a vaccine is safe/affective and has zero side-effects.

Life insurance companies are paying out over 40% greater claims since 2020 from deaths in young adults. You can't tell me that the vaccine intake doesn't have something to do with this. Just saying!
  • 18 2
 I'm just begging the question: is it possible that the payout data your referencing has to do with the mortality of COVID-19 to young adults? Remember, young adults also died and experience morbidity from COVID-19 infection.

Also, the vaccines were not largely available for younger populations until, what, February 2021? Even then, many people waited until spring or summer of 2021 - and you just stated that the payouts increased beginning in 2020.

Meanwhile, did you know that traffic fatalities (probably the leading cause of insurance payable death in populations 18-40) are up dramatically throughout the pandemic? Specifically, they went up 7.1% and 10.5% (year over year) in 2020 and 2021 - and these will disproportionately affect younger populations. Traffic fatalities alone likely account for nearly half of the insurance payout increase.
  • 9 4
 A pandemic that kills might have something to do with it !
  • 2 0
 Well, 40% of young adults are now dead, so that makes sense.
  • 1 6
flag fotop (Dec 23, 2022 at 7:04) (Below Threshold)
 40% greater claims that must mean the death rate is up 40%. I thought I heard someone say that but nobody checks John Hopkins or any actual data
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 I think I’d die of boredom if I stopped cycling to save my heart.
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 Good to know that I'm not at risk of death due to over-exercise
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 You have exercise and then you have what athletes do. A lot of athletes from different sports die young. The amount of nutrients that they consume seems pretty insane
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 All these anti vax posts are sad. Get off fox news and talk to real health professionals. The same crowd blamed a hockey players suicide to the vaccine killing him. Completely @#$#ed mindset
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 Stop watching CBC and the other Canadian government propaganda media outlets you will be enlightened. The real health professionals have been silenced, The rest are just pharma pushers.
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 @d-man: a handful of doctors have been silenced because they're spouting dangerous crap and they're the hero you think they are? How brainwashed are you?
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 @Saucycheese: this is one of the "heroes" I've seen being brought up here: healthfeedback.org/claimreview/joe-rogan-interview-with-peter-mccullough-contains-multiple-false-and-unsubstantiated-claims-about-the-covid-19-pandemic-and-vaccines

Apparently for those "do your own research" it means finding only what you want to agree with that is wrong and dwarfed by what you don't agree with that is factual.
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 @FaahkEet: "Apparently for those "do your own research" it means finding only what you want to agree with that is wrong and dwarfed by what you don't agree with that is factual."

That's basically all the right and left do anymore these days haha. Anything they don't like they'll simply ignore or attack the person rather than argument.
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 You mean real health professionals like the world's leading cardiologist Peter McCullough or the guy who created the technology for this gene therapy Robert Malone or the guy who's treated more covid patients than anyone in the world Dr Ben marble or the doctor who found the studies and prove that Ivermectin is a miracle cure Dr Pierre Cory unfortunately all these doctors are black bald and censored off of every platform which is recently been proved by Elon Musk they've recently been reinstated to Twitter so that they can share their medical peer-reviewed opinions get your head out of your ass the TV is not your friend
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 I think if you're not really fit your heart isn't up to higher rpm I watch Syd and Macky on YouTube they gradually increase their heart rates to prepare for races less chance of cardiovascular stress.
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 @seb-stott I think you may start to get a better perspective here...
stevekirsch.substack.com/p/why-cant-we-talk-about-it
Continue here... rwmalonemd.substack.com/archive?sort=new
And here... petermcculloughmd.substack.com and if interested in finding the truth keep searching for it...
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 People with phd are Among the leading group to not be jabbed. That should tell you something.
As far as people claiming there are not any peer reviews articles linking the jab to people dying suddenly. Your mistaken. There are dozens and dozens you won’t hear about them in your news.
I could give sources but y’all won’t look at them anyways.
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 This guy gets it we all talk about the doctors and their recommendations but with the doctors have the licenses if they weren't doing what they were told to do they were all threatened some of the best doctors in the world lost their licenses because they have what's called integrity but let's just go to Pfizer how many fires are employees took the vaccine it was far less than 50% I wonder Dr yadon the previous CEO of Pfizer came out and told everyone to not take the shot but I'm sure he benefited from that you guys can say whatever you want but it's much harder to say something that's true when you know you're going to be attacked about it it's a lot easier to go along with everybody and say well if you got the shot your hospitalization right is a much lower what doctor did you hear that from Anthony fauci he's not a doctor wake up
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