You occasionally hear bike manufacturers claiming they've placed the shock low down in the frame to give it a lower center of gravity, and it's often assumed that a lower center of gravity (COG) makes the bike more stable.
Probably the most striking example of this was when Specialized went to a bottom bracket concentric main pivot with their
2015 Demo, citing a lower COG as one of the main reasons. More recently,
Cannondale (pictured above) nestled the shock inside the down tube to get it as low as possible.
It might sound reasonable that putting heavier components lower in the bike would lower the COG and therefore make the bike more stable. After all, a car with its weight lower down rolls less and corners better, and if you were a sumo wrestler trying to avoid being knocked over, getting lower is a good idea. But with a bicycle, things are a little different.
Most obviously, the effect of lowering the shock on the center of gravity is pretty negligible. The heaviest coil shocks weigh about a kilogram. The total system weight - that's the bike plus the rider - weighs about a hundred kilograms, and the center of gravity of all that weight is typically about 1 m from the ground (we only need rough numbers here). The difference in height between a high shock position, just under the top tube, and a low shock position, just above the down tube, is about 20 centimeters.
The difference between a high and low shock location is about 20 cm.
Moving that 1 kg shock 20 cm lower in the frame lowers the center of gravity of the entire 100 kg system by about 2 mm, or 0.2%. You could literally have a bigger effect on your center of gravity by wearing thinner socks.
Okay, but maybe it isn't only the centre of gravity of the
system that matters. Maybe it's the centre of gravity of the bike itself. If you're trying to manoeuvre the bike left and right relative to your body, then it's the centre of gravity of the bike which determines how much effort that takes. A typical bike weighs about 15 kilograms, so if you are lowering the shock by 20 centimetres, the COG of the bike will be lowered by one-fifteenth of 20 cm, which is about 13 mm. The Center of Gravity location of a bike is in the region of 50 centimetres from the ground. So you're lowering its centre of gravity by about 2%.
But bikes are all about marginal gains at this point, so assuming you
could lower the center of gravity by a noticeable amount, perhaps by putting an ebike motor right by the bottom bracket or by lowering the bottom bracket height (and therefore the mass of the rider) by a couple of centimetres, wouldn't that improve the stability of the bike, at least a tiny bit?
It depends on what you mean by stability.
In terms of pitching - that's how much the frame tilts forward when you apply the brakes, or squats backwards when you stamp on the pedals - lowering the COG will reduce this pitching, which could be described as an improvement to stability. Just like increasing the wheelbase, a lower center of gravity makes the bike less prone to "trip up" or pitch you over the bars - this is why taller riders need a longer wheelbase.
No doubt a lower COG makes it (slightly) easier to avoid going over the bars.
But here's the counter-intuitive part: when it comes to cornering and balancing from side to side, lowering the center of gravity doesn't improve stability.
That's because a bicycle is essentially an inverted pendulum, like balancing a baseball bat upright on your hand. In order to balance the bat, you continually move your hand so it remains under its center of gravity. Similarly, on a bicycle you're constantly steering so the wheels are directly underneath your COG. By the way, within a certain range of speeds, gyroscopic and caster forces will do this automatically (this is known as
self-stability) but at lower or higher speeds, the rider has to make regular corrections to the steering to remain balanced.
Here's a video demonstration of a higher COG being easier to balance.
A baseball bat is easier to balance on your hand than a pencil because its higher COG means it takes longer to fall over and so you have more time to move your hand to correct the lean. Also, if your hand is knocked to the side by a given distance, the change in angle of the bat is less than it is for the pencil, so it is easier to regain balance. Similarly, if your bike wheels are knocked to the side - perhaps by a loose rock or sliding in a turn - with a taller COG the angle by which the bike will become off-balance will be less, and you'll have more time to correct for this by steering into the direction of lean.
So does this mean that we should all be riding bikes with the highest possible center of gravity to make them more stable? No, partly because of the pitching reason we discussed earlier, but partly because there's a trade-off between stability and maneuverability in the corners.
The higher the COG, the longer it takes to
deliberately change the lean angle when initiating a turn or going from a left to a right turn (or visa-versa). Before you can turn left, you need to lean your weight to the left of your tires; in order to turn right, you first have to lean to the right. As you change the lean angle, the bike and rider pivot around the roll axis, or the line connecting the two contact patches. The distance between the roll axis and the COG is called the roll moment of inertia, and the longer the distance, the longer it takes to change the angle of lean, and so the longer it takes to change from turning left to turning right (or visa-versa). For this reason, you might want a low center of gravity for a series of tight turns, but a high center of gravity for a fast straight full of pinball rocks.
There's even an equation called the
control authority which links COG height, along with wheelbase, handlebar width and head angle, to "twitchiness" - how much the bike responds to a given input. A lower COG height has the same effect on this measure of twitchiness as a shorter wheelbase, steeper head angle or narrower handlebar.
So, just like any other geometry measurement, the center of gravity height is a tradeoff between twitchy and slow handling responses. But counter-intuitively, a lower COG makes the bike more twitchy, not more stable.
I like this, except that it should just be
1. Look
2. Bottle cage
and skip the others.
20 years ago every bike had 71/73 geometry, and they sucked-but maybe they "looked good"??
Are you new here?
Stumpjumper Evo: I've been wanting to fill the frame with water for years. Cannondale did it with their motocross project (fuel, not water, and yes, I know they weren't the first to store fuel in the frame), but weren't quite crazy enough to try it with bike frames!
Weak cages: Yeah, but that's easily fixed with better cages or, in many cases, just a strap (credit to Seth's Bike Hacks). As I've mentioned before, I like the ⌀3.5" bottle standard (ex. Nalgene) because it carries so much more volume for a given length, and length is usually the most difficult constraint on bikes. A few tweaks to existing designs and we could carry more water, lower - not that the centre of mass location will make a big difference, but if the option exists to carry it low, we might as well.
Seriously tho, have you tried the fidlock and other "alternative" retention systems? On my ti bike I have the bottle mount on the under side of the top tube, so I'm curious.
If road wheels can be wider and more aero, and if Ribble can increase the frontal area of their handlebars in the name of aero benefits, surely we can market the ⌀3.5" bottles as being more aero. Turbulent boundary layers, vortex shedding, stall angles, trip surfaces, systems integration, CFD simulations of static riders ... fire up your 3D printer and I'll cut up some scraps of paper with buzzwords we can pull out of a hat - we're going to be rich.
Side effect is the bike looks better when you don't have a bottle vs a cage.
And I've got a High Above hip pack that has a Fidlock on it so the full bottle gets transfered to there when I'm carrying two.
this is why approaching this issues as a "system" is silly.
The real problem is BB height. Manufacturers have moved BB's lower and lower to get the undoubted advantages of a lower rider COG, but the trade-offs of this, pedal strikes and slowness of lifting the front end has perhaps gone too far?
Most riders aren't actually chasing KOM's and race results, they might want a bike that will clean tricky sections or that feels playful.
Long chain-stays, big wheels and a low BB's might be great for super tall riders who want to hammer through DH without pedalling, but they are the enemy of pedalling in ruts, pulling the front end up and not dropping your scrotum into the back tyre.
When riding through loose surfaces, like gravel, this is the most noticeable. Loose rocks deflect your tire left and right, and since the bike moves independently of the rider, the more mass there is lower in the bike, the less the bike will deflect for a given rock size/speed. Thats why heavy, DH tires do so well in loose rocks. Thats why ebikes feel so dang stable on gravel. For a given frame weight, having the weight higher means there is less mass near rock strikes, allowing for more left-right delfection.
Agree as well that the article on bike weight was pure tripe. Anyone who has ridden both ends of the spectrum is well aware of the differences that bike weight has on handling, acceleration, stability, liveliness. Trying to convince the masses that repeatable, empirical results are false is misguided at best.
That said, many people make the mistake of trying to invent in a vacuum, i.e. to ignore the R&D of others and try to derive the secrets of the universe from the comfort of their desk, which is perhaps what you were getting at. It's an easy trap to fall into. That's why my design process is more data-driven than anyone else in the industry. I've compiled a huge database of many parameters and I use analytics to find commonalities between bikes with certain properties. Testing and novel calculations are still important, of course, but there have been probably billions of dollars and nearly as many hours spent on mountain biking and it would be foolish to ignore the consumer and professional learnings that have come from it.
So, maybe we agree after all. Testing is important and "garbage in, garbage out" will always be true ... but when you start talking about math, I'll always have math's back!
If you follow his link and find that equation on that paper it has nothing to do with the height of the CoG. That equation only cares about where the CoG is front/back. So relative to the wheelbase. Which makes sense because if all the weight of the bike is way forward or back the bike does indeed handle remarkably differently.
I touched on it here, and I've written the full story many times, possibly including the Pinkbike forums.
For the first lowracer human-powered vehicles I designed, I went all-in on making it low for aerodynamics and assumed a lower centre of mass would be a perfectly good byproduct. The top of the rider's head was something like a half metre off the ground - it's been ages and I forget the numbers, but it was absurdly low, even for a competition lowracer. I couldn't fit the rear wheel under the rider, so I put it fully behind the rider. The length enough to worry the Ever Given crew, but I figured that would add to the stability - perfect for a speed comp racer.
Here's where the conventional wisdom broke down:
I've been describing this vehicle with the bat vs. pencil analogy since shortly after JNCO Jeans rose to popularity - and I'm pretty sure I've written . Like the pencil, the crazy low centre of mass allowed crazy fast roll axis rotation. It takes only a small amount of rotation to create a large angle between the line of contact (between the tires) and the centre of mass; this angle dictates the nature of the turn required to correct the wobble. Therefore, the rider quickly needs to make a hard turn, which is not easily done when the wheelbase is absurdly long.
Getting started was a nightmare and it was terrifying at moderate speeds. You can imagine how my riders felt when I told them yes, the bike is trying to kill you, and the solution is to go MUCH FASTER. The brave ones did, and it was serene - like gliding on a smooth lake ... until you tried to stop and returned to the death zone.
Anyway, just wanted to share some first-hand experience with exploring the outer limits of parameters that I once assumed would always enhance stability.
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=119046&pagenum=436
Leave this argument for road cycling, mtb moves the bike independently of the rider like 90% of the time, pretty much all attentive riders will notice an extra kg on their bike frame the second the wheels leave the ground
On the other hand, it takes more time to correct wobbles, which allows more time for things to go wrong before you can correct, and it feels like you're in a state of constantly making corrections - like how it's difficult for a performer on stilts to ever stand completely still.
So, the next question would be how these things work in the context of mountain bikes. A wheelbase can be only so long before the bike handles poorly on typical trails and at typical speeds. In this context - and especially when considering fore-aft pitch stability - I favour the lowest practical BB height, frame centre of mass, and rider centre of mass. The problem of roll axis instability vs. steered yaw rate isn't a limiting factor on mountain bikes, so we're within the region of "lower is better".
Rider's CoG is really important in gravity riding, and even more important, is how much the rider can vary the height of the bike under it's CoG. By having a higher CoG in corners, You'll be able, when leaning, to reduce the distance traveled by your CoG (draw several corners seen from above and several CoG path if you're not sure), hence, by conserving your quantity of movement, you'll be able to go faster, everything being equal elsewhere. And if you are able to have a bigger difference in Cog high (having tall and/or strong legs), you'll be able to "push" more in the corner, hence increasing this effect.
This has limitations in longer, bigger radius corners tho.
The general movement from 26>27.5>29 has added mass that's difficult to overcome. You pay a substantial weight penalty to get a 29" wheeled bike with the same puncture resistance and wheel strength relative to a 26. But seeing a large portion of new trail bikes being paraded out with weights in the mid-30's (without pedals, a tool or water bottle) makes me cringe, especially when the trailer story is that 'bike weight doesn't matter'. If you're a 6ft+ diesel engine rider, maybe you don't care (thought maybe you should).
What I see on trail is a whole host of smaller/lighter riders working their ass off to climb an unnecessarily heavy sled in a 28/52 granny, just slugging out the vert. As the bike becomes a more significant percentage of your total bike/rider weight, the bike weight effects become so much more noticeable.
Tell me more about how bike weight doesn't matter.
Your assumptions would only make sense if the bike was unweighted most of the time. How often are you light on your pedals? in air mostly where bike COG is less of an issue. COG is most important for cornering and pitching so when you have all of your weight on the pedals.
Also "you cannot assume everything" but you are yourself assuming the shock becomes "an order of magnitude more important...". That's an assumption mate.
But on this subject, how did you calculate the 20kg number? You think a 15kg shock wouldn't effect bike handling? Do you think it would have normal decals or heavier decals on it?
The wankerteering/marketing department will clasp at anything to get the sale.
m.pinkbike.com/photo/11742494
Everybody mocked my criticism of it back then cause they just assumed Specialized knew what they were doing. They still don't, their frame designs cause shocks to blow up and their pivot is still too low for optimum suspension.
it's an enchanted planet i tellz ya
One thing that I notice when riding is a significant difference in 'feel' when switching between a light (XC) wheel set vs. a heavy (DH) wheel set on the same bike. There is definitely a noticeable difference in the body english required to lever the bike over into turns.
Can you please do a similar article nerding out on the science involved in the rotational masses, centripetal and centrifugal forces at play in that situation?
For example: how much more/less force at the pedals and handle bars does it take to lean/turn a bike with say a 650B XC wheel set and tyres vs. 29er DH wheel set and tyres (maybe include tyre inserts for added rotational mass).
What's the optimum amount of table to maximise turning in the air if I'm under rotating a hip jump?
For reference I'm 95kg, 188cm, Leo.
But sure @seb-stott already told us unsprung mass doesn't do anything (trying to do a bike drop test and with a bike with a good ratio and a bad ratio and see which one bounce back more would be a decent test of concept), bike CoG is irrelevant too apparently so I can only imagine that he will come up to the conclusion that wheel weight is also irrelevant. Btw if wheel weight is significant because it is a rotational mass which multiplies its weight, then this weight should also be considered in your sprung/unsprung ratio. Blabbering some theory is great to generate hypothesis (Scott's opinions are just that), now back this up with experimental results would be more usefull.
www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=211801&pagenum=172
R-M-R wrote:
I did a quick calculation. With a couple of roughly estimated weights for the bike and the added mass, it lowers the centre of mass for the combined bike & rider system by slightly over 1 mm. The effect is marginally greater than changing the thickness of the rider's socks.
Please try a cargo bike. You can Vary easily the position of the COG by placing a 20kg toolbox where you want. You'll find it more stable with a more centered, lower COG, but it's easier to ride without hands with a higher, more forward COG.
Because you are confusing "self stability", "rider input stability", and "maneuverability", and absolute value with relative values.
And no, a bike isn't an inverted pendulum. You explained the inverted pendulum and the bike stability with caster effects, That doesn't work the same, except for the COG height's effects being counter-intuitive.
You'll need 1kg socks to have a similar effect as a 1kg shock, that's a bit obvious
The Control authority's equation in your link has some bigger issues tho. Some first order terms are missing, like fork's offset. It has a value in squared distance. That's a bit weird.
THIS!
I do enjoy the articles @seb-stott.
I have never though of centre of gravity to realistically have any impact on my ride and I think sprung vs unsprung weight ratios is far more interesting and that's why ebikes feel way more stable. My wheels, fork lowers, half my rear triangle combined are more than half the weight of my bike. It rides fine, but an ebike arguably has almost the same unsprung mass but significantly more sprung weight. To the point that your ratio instead of 1:1 is 1:2.3 or more. Which in itself is better. Add a rider to the equation and the ratio sky rockets but you still have that benefit out the gate. The day I see my bike moving in its travel while on a car rack is when I'll be happy.
@seb-stott I'd be interested to hear your take on that relationship you do a great job of laying it out for plain folks like me.
CycleWorld magazine studied this at length a while back (though in this case relating to sport bikes) and came to a similar conclusion.
In the case of a bicycle, the mass/weight of the chassis relative to the rider is far less which, might support a reasonable argument that lower CG takes a back seat to other more important considerations such as proper kinematics and suspension setup.
www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/motorcycle-center-of-gravity-motorhead-myths/?utm_campaign=trueanthem_trending-content&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0sVUyl4UjgDF3LyYQTF216OX6mF-YNmX_tJf97q7YW4v60NtnBSs1t3No
And on a mountain bike, it could be argued that the ideal part of the spectrum should be closer to maneuverability, since sometimes, "stability" comes from maneuverability. Trail inputs are inevitably going to move the bike, and being able to maneuver the bike quickly and with (marginally, but margins add up) less effort to account for those external inputs is quite important for dynamic stability. And a low CG makes for easier (relative input effort) maneuvering, hence better dynamic stability.
In the Rotational Inertia video, the bike is the inverse of that because the pivot point is the ground and you're moving your body (at the top) to keep balance.
But when moving, imagine it the other way around : if you turn left, you "push" towards your right side (or if you're on ice, you don't push anything, you have no traction and you fall). The opposite reaction means that the ground is applying a force towards your left side.
That force is in some way similar to the guy pushing the bottom of the pole with his fingers, not only up (to support the weight), but on the necessary side to stay below the COG.
The main difference is : the ground is not the one 'thinking and correcting", you are.
It's a lot more complicated, but when assuming the bike+rider as a pretty rigid system (which is obviously not accurate at all! maybe when riding flat ground without obstacles?), the stick analogy makes some sense.
I will happily skim to the timed results and argue in the comments.
The main point of the article, though, is that a lower COG isn't necessarily more "stable" as it would be with a four-wheeled vehicle. The inverted pendulum model of a bicycle implies that a higher COG is usually easier to keep balanced once up to speed.
There's more here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics#:~:text=The%20farther%20forward,wheel.%5B11%5D
The best thing about nerding is ensuring your inputs are correct
Now, take a barbell, place it perpendicular to the ground, place a 20kg weight on the bottom of the barbell and control from the top to +- 45 degrees, now place the weight on the top and try the same experiment.
Nerded.
I don't know much about MotoGP but I suspect that if they were deliberately moving the COG upwards for handling reasons it was to reduce twitchiness and make it easier to control a slide.
I have the same book and what a book. When I had it explained to me - the motorcycle does not solely change direction by pendulum over the top of the contact patch, but some pendulums under the COG and some pendulums above (the tyres are not fixed to the ground). Thus if you bring the rider and motorcycle mass closer together it will change direction quicker.
Bicycles will be the same and could be useful in DS?
We could call it 3% or even 4% to be generous. It's still small, compared to the rider. It's also small when compared to adding or omitting a water bottle.
Your point is valid, but the conclusion is about the same.
So, just looking at the inverted pendulum aspect, with respect to moving the contact patches via steering, ignores the simple 2nd class lever system of leaning the bike with handlebar inputs.
It also ignore bike-body separation when it assumes "you're constantly steering so the wheels are directly underneath your COG". That applies when attempting to go in straight line: there are constant small adjustments to steering to move the contact patches back and forth to get that invert pendulum effect. But in actual mountain bike riding, there are many many situations where you need to lean the bike (move the contact patches relative to CG) without any relation to the inverted pendulum aspect. For that movement, a lower CG means (marginally) less effort is needed to make the lean.
In the end, what matters is does it feel good to you as a rider and does it give you the confidence to ride it better and faster?
^wrong wrong wrong^....you are constantly "LEANING" to keep the wheels under your COG. If you dont lean that bike over first it doesnt matter where your steering the bike aint going there.
More weight towards bottom of bike means easier to lean over/manuever = less fatigue. Lower COG = More stable in chunder, less deflection off rocks, more planted, holds better lines.
A better anology would be to stand a baseball bat upright resting on the ground then rock back n forth with hand on top of bat....do this both ways with barrel of bat facing upwards and downwards.
Also I´d say the bike is balanced from above, while the video example shows us balancing from underside
But, MTB is determined to learn the hard way.
Better analogy would be a hammer with the head down versus with the head up. Head up is (perhaps counterintuitively) easier to balance as an inverted pendulum because the moment of inertia (relative to the fulcrum point of your hand is larger. Same system mass, but different inertia: much closer analogy to moving heavy bits of a bike up or down relative to the ground.
But the rest of the article is a pedantic word game about what “stability” means and whether less or more is good. I don’t think riders actually misunderstand this. Less “stability” is roughly equivalent to less rotation inertia, i.e. more agility, which is indeed largely a good thing when leaning a bike over in a corner. This is analogous to smaller wheels being “less stable” than bigger ones. Riders make the that tradeoff for maneuverability in that case as well.
Why do people who DONT MAKE BIKES always know better then those who do make bike how to build bikes ???
And why aren’t THEY make better bikes ?
Answer : cause it’s easy to wait till someone makes something and diss it then to actually do something yourself . Dissing Luther’s makes you feel better about yourself instead of realizing your all talk and not as good as others .
The word comes to mind - narcissism !
Basically why we are we’re we are today in every subject in society , the core of socialism - wait till someone makes money (something of value ) and then want to be part of it after it’s a success - not before - and when you get told no you say it’s shit or they are a*sholes or product bad or system bad - all but YOURSELF!
WANT HIGH SHOCKS ? Make them!
The composed system (rider+bike) CoG, is determined not only by the individual CoG but also the weight of each.
Meaning that being a rider +80% of total system, the CoG of the system will be closer to the belly button of the rider.
The good news is:
1) we're flexible, and any rider should practice flexibility, and the hability to ride as low as possible (DH!)
2) there're dropper posts
Shocklocation as more to do with link location and suspension cinematic, than anything.
Like many things, people should LEARN how to ride, before spending on equipment that will have very marginal ganes.
PS: regarding people finding heavier bikes motorized bikes more stabble, has to do with the inercia of the bike, that will be less prone to deflect, but also more difficult to move the bike/motorized bike around.
A high centre of mass creates a feeling of stability in two ways:
1. Slows the rate of rotation about the roll-axis
2. A given lateral deflection (ex. wheels knocked off-line after hitting a rock) produces a lesser lean angle, which we could think of as an unexpected turning event
These effects also delay the initiation of an intended turning event and increase fore-aft pitching, which tend to reduce the feeling of control.
I've designed and raced lowracer style recumbents for human-powered vehicle competitions. These can have an extremely long wheelbase and extremely low centre of mass, which taught me a lot about the extremes of centre of mass and turning rates. The conclusion - like most things - was that it's important to balance the parameters. As you pointed out, when all other handling parameters are held constant, any one parameter adjusted in isolation usually has an optimum value, rather than constantly improving as it approaches zero or infinity.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_X-29
Any
this is plain wrong.
If a bicycle is similar to something, its more like you balancing on top of an upright baseball bat that's on the ground. I'm not sure of the effect of lowering the COG on a bike by a few mm by moving pivots here and there. Even a 1kg change in mass of the bike (frame) is hard to perceive on a flat section or downhill. What is percievable is a large change in mass like comparing an motorbike or e-bike to a pushbike. Also questionable is the term "stable". If stable means the ability to plough trough rough stuff, then a low COG is beneficial without doubt. Essentially the lower the COG, the less the bike want's to tip over the obstacle it needs to roll over. So it's certainly more stable in this sense.
But at higher speeds (most of the time during non-trials mountain biking) the single inverted pendulum model is more appropriate.
See here for more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics#:~:text=A%20bike%20is%20also,racks.%5B39%5D
Secondly, the concept of "stability" is not well explained in this article and I point out a situation where exactly a lower COG DOES improve perceived stability while riding a mtb.
My old Jekyll felt like like the bike rear end was moving up and down a lot in relation with the main triangle,like the bike was 2 separate pieces. The Enduro could not be more different,the bike does not fold so much we you compress the suspension,or at least is the feeling I get.
VPP bikes and almost the same thing,like the wheelbase is more constant over sigle pivot,4 bar suspension bikes. Same thing for the 6 bar suspension and Yeti suspension design (regular bikes with the shock guide).
(with apologies to David Byrne)
Moving the shock low has disadvantages and advantages, depending on situations and preferences, however marginal they may be. The article seemingly tried to show that a low CG doesn't affect "stability" but kind of ignored that there are many kinds of "stability" and that inverted pendulum stability only applies to a very narrow band of the riding experience. Seems like they just kind of wanted to shit on "low shock is good" marketing, and picked specific and limited arguments to support that.