Part of my job is trying to pick apart the differences between bikes and suspension products to try and figure out which performs best. But to be honest, often the differences are subtle and one person's idea of "better" may not be the same as another. Moreover, a far bigger factor than whether you buy "fork X" or "fork Y" could be how you set up your chosen fork and how regularly you service it.
This was made clear to me recently when I was on a call with Öhlins about their new
RXF 34 fork, and a throwaway comment grabbed my attention. One of the product managers mentioned in passing that they sell far more forks than the seal kits needed to service those forks. That fact really surprised me. If the average fork is serviced once per year (the bare minimum), and Öhlins has been selling MTB forks en-masse since 2016, you'd expect to sell many service kits for every fork. Even if some forks are getting serviced without the proper seal kit, that still suggests there are lots of forks out there which are badly overdue a service.
Anyone who's ever serviced a fork knows that it makes a huge difference. The degradation of performance due to water and dirt ingress, oil degradation and seal wear is slow enough that you don't notice it while it's happening. But when you refresh the oil and seals, it dramatically reduces friction and bumps up the performance.
It's often said that before you service a fork you should carefully note all your settings and then return to those afterwards. But I think that's bad advice because if your fork hasn't had a service for years, there'll be so much friction in the system that it will dominate the damping. And so the damper settings you'll want after the service will be very different to those that worked best beforehand. Otherwise, the reduced friction will make it feel too soft and too lively.
Servicing a fork has such a massive impact on its performance that a top-tier fork that's overdue a service can perform worse than an entry-level fork that's been looked after. So in a sense, you're throwing away hundreds of pounds/dollars/euros by
not having it serviced, even before you consider the extended lifespan that comes with regular servicing.
In the same phone call, I asked Öhlins about their tuning programme, which makes it possible for Öhlins products to be re-valved to suit customers at a local service centre. Far from giving me the big sell, Öhlins Racing Technician, Terje Hansen, was pretty dismissive of the "shim cowboys" who are too keen to re-valve a shock before they've properly tuned it using the external adjustments. He added that at a recent testing camp for a DH World Cup team, the vast majority of their time with Öhlins was spent testing different spring rates in the fork and shock, trying to get the best balance right front-to-rear.
I think a common mistake is to measure sag once and then move on to damper settings and even re-valving; setting sag is just a starting point when it comes to setting up the spring stiffness, and it's worth trying a few different settings before fine-tuning the damping settings or thinking about custom tunes.
The point of all this is to stick to the basics. It doesn't matter all that much which fork you buy or if it's custom-tuned, or whether you're running five clicks of compression or six. What really matters is when was the last time it was serviced, what spring rate are you running and how does the spring rate compare between the front and the rear? Getting that right is 95% of the battle.
As those rubber boots compress and then expand again, they have to release air somehow and reinflate again, and that is where they fail. I did try to connect them with a small hose into the steerer, but that did not work well. Makes everything very complicated.
1) Friction
2) Spring rate
3) Damping
You have to do them in order.
1) Friction
2) Spring rate
3) Damping
4.) Not being bad at bikes
Burnish
Burnish
Burnish
Burnish
Burnish
…doesn’t even sound like a word anymore
Also part of the QC,
If you were to take all the forks and give them a pro level re-build, what your now testing is the quality of that re-build more than what you get off the rack.
A lot of the differences that your feeling in a stock fork, are just that, the quality of their QC, manufacturing tolerances, and design, with the first two being most important.
If you’ve moved on to custom suspension, any fork review becomes nearly irrelevant. It is important to those who want to purchase something, and have it work acceptably from the get-go.
Things that are fairly common in Motorsport, like custom suspension, etc, are less so in mtb, as the barrier to entry is quite a bit lower
I’m making the assumption that there is a degree on allowances in the manufacturing QC as well, so that’s part of what’s being tested during a review.
Any fork, gone through a custom rebuild is going to feel great, but it’s not a representative example of what comes out of the factory, so in doing it, it makes any review after the rebuild, more about the quality of the work done during the rebuild. There’s going to be quality variances within the rebuilds as well, so you’re no longer reviewing a representative example.
I would think most companies that send things out for review simply pull what they have. Surely they have to rely on their own QC to catch the one-offs.
I’ll be honest, I don’t put a tonne of stock into the reviews of most things, it’s entertainment for me to consume to pass the day. Maybe I learn along the way. It’s usually more telling what isn’t said in a review than what is.
Cant say I read any reviews of Sid forks that mention much about bushing play, but Levy kept tripping over himself to shade RS for it in the last bike review videos, which is good to see
Who’s to say that PB or any other reviewer has received any suspension product that is either overly sticky, or has bushing play….don’t assume the QC is bad, it might just fall within their manufacturing tolerances
I’ve serviced hundreds of forks, and ridden as many in my time as a mountain biker. I cant honestly say that there has been that many that have been “off”. I do vividly remember some bad manitou black forks,
And a couple Pikes that were horrendous.
If I remember correctly, the EXT forks, are more money than an Ultimate, or Factory fork, so call it part of their tighter manufacturing process to burnish those bushings, the extra cost has to go somewhere doesn’t it?
Burnishing the bushings at factory might be a 15 min job at the factory, but no way I’m getting that done in my garage, 2 beers deep, in 15 mins.
I’m not saying burnishing the bushings isn’t a valid idea, but I would classify it as a bit of custom work.
Love to burnish bushings over here.
Long and short, it’s not something to get too worked up about, buy from the companies that you respect and prefer, but don’t be so surprised that there are different quality standards within similar products. You have every right to say it’s unacceptable, but was it unacceptable prior to your knowledge and understanding of burnishing bushings…
All jobs are something that anyone can do, but I can assure you most don’t want, as evidenced by the point of this article.
BURNISHING BUSHINGS…
"A fork service? That's easy! Feel free to follow my simple step by step instructions. I make burnishing FUN!!"
Hard riding will only ever "break in" fore and aft, and to me, that's just wear. If a bushing is ovalised, the stanchion doesn't have the dimensions to put it back into place, no matter what.
Maybe tenths of of millimeter is the tolerance and maybe the quality control ,wishes to, catch the mistake.
The reputation for longevity of parts often reflects the level of QC.
‘The tool needed sharpening for the 1/4 inch mills’ - where on earth did you work and what were you doing / making? Fence brackets from scrap metal?
We haven’t ever resharpened an endmill, just not worth it - nobody does it anymore
I think you are confusing mass production, often overseas to companies like Hope, i9 etc etc l
The shop was in Burnaby BC Canada .
Can you forward contact info on your man who builds burnishing tools?
Some how your obsessed with fence brackets and a a avoiding the job of sharpening tools .
I have worked in "real machine shops" not bike related . Thousands of an inch is what real machine shops deal with. Mistakes are not considered. Or tolerated .
What did you sharpen the endmill with, a file?
We don't deal with thousands of a inch here - that 0.025mm which would be a large allowable tolerance for most work.
You are talking nonsense - many Asian factories are state of the art and have super high QC levels, who do you think pumps out all of those i-phones? - you get what you pay for though.
Machine shop guys are right up there with engineers and vegans on Internet forums.
I think you missed Italians, crossfitters, and people with BMX backgrounds of your list of stereotypes.
Full disrespect to cross fitters, and of course vegans….
There are so many variables, and they change from ride to ride, location, speed, weight, etc, etc, etc.
You have three options,
1, get a fork with grip/rail damper, or Charger damper, the entry level forks are great, service them regularly, use extra money for beer and be happy in the knowledge that you are not Loic, Amaury, or Minaar. Ride your bike, have fun, chill vibes as they say.
2. Get stuck in, learn everything you can, research, toil, take apart, reassemble, rinse and repeat daily. Change settings based on upcoming weather patterns, try to explain while your SO rolls eyes, memorize spring weights, etc
3. Buy Fox Factory level suspension, do no setup, read PB to complain that they didn’t include how many clicks from (is it closed or open?) Danny Hart runs on his completely different fork, complain to the fine folks at Cascade why you need them make a link for you specific bike (but not actually buy it). Sweat over a extra 10mm your buddies new bike has, etc, etc, etc
Get good adjustable dampers, spend a tiny bit of time (relative to all the riding time you will eventually do) getting stuck in, learning a little bit, getting the suspension fairly dialed. And then ride, have fun, chill vibes. I have a 36 Factory with Grip2, so pretty much _all the settings_, but the only time I turn the knobs nowadays is after a service since they all get moved around during that process. Smooth trails that are all turns, rough trails that are all punchy climbs and janky chutes, winch & plummet "jump" trails, doesn't matter, I just ride the same settings. But it's nice to know the fork is better suited to me and my style than a basic damper (or un-dialed fancy damper) that is tuned for people who weigh 40 pounds less and are probably way nicer to wheels than me.
Should I pick a different font maybe?
youtu.be/xhnKTZu2AKs
I live in Vancouver, and given how big of a presence mtbing is here; insert cliché “mecca” of mtb term. The lack of manufacturer service centres is pretty pathetic. Fox only recently opened a service centre in Burnaby, which is awesome. But if you own rockshox? You have to drive to Squamish.. other than that there’s suspensionworx in west van. I couldn’t imagine living in a smaller town, or somewhere biking isn’t as popular. I would also be willing to bet that most riders don’t want to ship their parts out for a rebuild which likely takes weeks unless something is seriously wrong with their suspension. Further diminishing the likelihood people will do it for preventative maintenance.
Now I’m in Vancouver and you can schedule a shock service pretty easily for within one week, so it’s not such a big deal.
Exactly. I will say too. People, if you’re apprehensive about working on your $1000+ suspension. Take the money you’d pay for the service into investing into the proper tools. Having the specific tools to do the job, A: makes things 100x faster and most importantly B: significantly decreases the chances of messing something up.
It cost me about $300 to buy all the tools for my 36 including new seals and oil. But now the next time it’s needed all it will cost me is $30-50 for the seals and the 1-2 beers.
No I haven’t done a damper yet. But that will be the next step in my suspension service learning experience. I genuinely enjoy working on and tinkering with my bike(s) so part of that will be eventually being able to service and completely rebuild my own suspension.
F.ex. Shock body 95€s, while a RS Monarchs is 30€
Having a service point where one can drop of the fork (or better the whole bike) and pick it up fully serviced a few days later, is such a huge advantage.
Their suspension components would also last longer. Wait a minute...
Why do you continue to re-use the cheapest replacement part?
What are you using to clean and flush the foam rings?
You’d be spending more time and money to re-use a part that is breaking down over time. Any corrosive solvent used to “clean and flush” is breaking down the open cell foam, which would be degrading its ability to retain the oil that you’re putting back on.
I can see re-using a seal, assuming it’s clean, and re-greased, but it too will degrade in its ability to “seal” allowing further contaminants into your fork.
WD40 cleans foam rings without swell.
As I said, oil is clean when it comes out. Am I using a particle analyser? No, but it looks clean to the naked eye.
As a side note, WD-40 is not great to i]use on foam, as it degrades the foam, there by decreasing it’s ability to soak, and retain the oil that you’re soaking it in.
It then also contaminants that oil, and takes up space that could be used to hold oil.
Just a tip, use as you see fit.
“Have you set up the suspension on your new bike?”
“Oh they did that at the shop”
“Uh huh….”
How would they ever know it’s not working properly? Hahaha
hah ha ha indeed.
*(Fox has everything: spring, damper, wipers, oil; at 125 hours, but it's really the wipers and oil that you'll notice that soon)
I've found modern air springs stay fresh longer than wiper seals, though that also may depend on where you're riding since the wipers have to deal with external contamination, not just the sliding wear.
s4suspension.com/products/rockshox-dust-wiper-finder-2?_pos=6&_sid=6fe5af727&_ss=r
Better material doesn't make you a better rider. (It does sometimes help, though, I admit)
More adjustability, doesn't mean it works better if you don't know how to adjust it.
You need to know what the adjuster knob does and understand how it will change the feel/reaction of the suspension BEFORE you turn it. (Like you know beforehand that the music will get louder, when you turn the volume knob in the "+" direction)
Even if there are more knobs, it doesn't mean you have to touch them. If you don't care, just leave them in the middle, or even better, match the presets chart that comes with the fork or shock. The second option means those riders that don't slot right into the middle of the bell curve still get a more ideal setting, even if they're not going full tweak and doing bracketing and all that jazz.
I'd argue there is nothing worse to ruin your ride than a shitty fork you can not adjust, speaking from experience there.
If you are happy with the base model, I'm happy for you, but you cannot know what I need or want.
Your fork is the second most important thing on your bike, right after tires. So make sure it suits your needs.
Thing is, beyond the cost, for someone who doesn't need that extra damping there is no downside. They set it to the middle or follow the chart and continue on.
And yes, I _can_ ride with a basic damper that I'm way outside of the tuning window on, but it's not ideal and is just one more thing I need to think about: more instances of "oh, I'd better slow down before that hit or I'm gonna bottom out and then get tossed on the next hit".
The volume comparison was just a metaphor. Or course, louder doesn't always mean better. But the point is, that everyone knows what's going to happen if the knob is turned in a certain direction, before it's turned.
If someone doesn't know what it does, that someone either needs to educate her/himself, or get suspension with fewer dials on it.
If that someone then complains about the suspension not behaving as one likes it to, then back to step one: educate yourself and get either the adjustments dialled in correctly, or get a different suspension product that suits the needs.
One doesn't need less dials if they don't know what they all do. There is always the option to just leave them in the middle, or just follow the preset charts, the latter being especially useful for riders on either side of the weight bell curve.
You also don't necessarily need to educate yourself or get a different product if things aren't behaving ideally. You can just turn dials a bit at a time, trying each setting, and judge them as subjectively as possible. Again, it might be better to not know, since even if you know the expected result of each dial, you really don't know how much each click will have an effect until you try it out, so it's always better to go into the dialing in process without expectations and just judge each test on its own.
Or, use the situation to get closer to the ideal number of bikes, N+1!
These products are all serviceable by the home, DIY mechanic. You can get all the tools, replacement bits and fluids for roughly the same cost or less then if you paid the shop for one single service. Even if you break something, most individual parts are easy to replace, plus you get the added bonus of having the learning experience.
To be honest I don't know how people aren't independent with their own maintenance. Yeah it can be stressful to learn if your not mechanically oriented ( I wasn't before I put in the time to learn), but it saves so much money and you get to ride way more because your bike isn't parked in the back of some LBS waiting for the staff to get around to it.
13mm for the Fox damper side washers.
Though 32 forks used to, and might still, use 8.2mm washers on both sides. And Talas springs used a metal 8.2mm OD washer, which you'll still find in the seal kits.
So, maybe if you have Ohlins or CCDB or FOx X2 the best way for 99% ot the time is to use knobs. And of course you should always start from them. But having a monotube you are very likely to benefit from changing shimstack, and btw this is something that your bike manufacturer should have cared in the first place, but often they just pick a random stock tune and call it a day.
Tuning rebound straight out of the box makes sense, as the rebound works directly against the (known) springrate. However tuning the compression side of things before you have even ridden the bike is just a waste of time and money. Problem is people hear the word custom and get all excited...
Also loving the tractive tune I got from Vorsprung Suspension on my Rockshox Superdeluxe and send that to them every year for a full service. If you're riding 1-2 days a week all summer long and are an intermediate rider or above, getting your suspension serviced properly is a must!
I started running my Trek Remedy with 15% sag in the back and 23-26% up front. I have never looked back since. Having a stiff rear end can be a blessing on a lot of tracks, escpecially if your bb doesnt sit low enough or your head angle is too steep.
"But I think that's bad advice because if your fork hasn't had a service for years, there'll be so much friction in the system that it will dominate the damping. And so the damper settings you'll want after the service will be very different to those that worked best beforehand. Otherwise, the reduced friction will make it feel too soft and too lively."
If you find you're wanting to start tweaking a dialled fork or shock on your local trails, don't. A sure sign you need to service it. Especially if you're backing the damping off.
I too own a Monster T. It is worth keeping them in good condition, they are f*cking cool forks
Generally I do a minimum of one lower leg service per year. Winter is good for that.
It's easy enough. Complete strip and rebuild once every two seasons.
seals once a year, foam rings clean em' once in between the full seals, but change that oil as often as I can remember, try and do that quarterly. It works for me, keeping the oil fresh and clean.
Good on ya I guess!
Imagine having a syringe that you kept loaded with bath oil. Unscrew a drain plug to drain most of the existing bath oil, tighten the screw, attach the syringe, and push in a few mL of oil. The whole process might take five minutes and would extend the service intervals of the seals and foam rings. It would be the suspension equivalent of lubing a chain.
Also, no chance of losing that little tiny hose clamp screw!
Grip2 not only has external adjustments for HSC and HSR, but those valves are a slightly different design to allow that adjustment. I think plain Grip also kinda combines HSC and LSC into that one blue dial, but not 100% sure on that, yet. The rest of each damper is pretty similar to each other
The current GRIP2 has a totally different HSC design.
You are correct that GRIP 2.1* has a different HSC adjustment mechanism (VVC) from the first GRIP2 (preload hat), though the result from each knob is still functionally similar.
* (it's stupid that the GRIP2 (2019-2020) with VVC on just HSR and the GRIP2 (2021+) with VVC on HSR _and_ HSC are both simply called "GRIP2", so I call the dual-VVC one "2.1")
Some crow's feet for good torques (or knipex if your internal click is good), couple chamferless sockets (or knipex again), and then the bullet is the only really custom tool (and 3d-printed options can be found from a variety of places).
Well, besides the nitrogen fill process, but the secret is that an X2 (pre-2021 only, I think) IPF fill valve fits on the DPX2 resi so you can ditch the nitrogen and just use a shock pump for easy home rebuilds.
yes. sag is a complete and utter pointless way of tuning suspension.