Pinkbike Poll: What Would Your Dream Shock Look Like?
Recently we got the scoop on Fox's prototype electronic shock. The following weekend, Jesse Melamed rode it at the Whistler EWS and won in emphatic style, taking four out of six stage wins. Also riding the new Fox shock was Richie Rude, who was snapping at Jesse's heels until a puncture took him out.
Now, I'd be the first to admit that race results don't say much about the bike. After all, watching Jesse and Richie battling it out at the front of the pack is far from unusual this season. But those results do suggest the shock was at least not letting them down. Also, in our interview at the test session, Jesse said the shock was performing no worse than the coil shock he was running before. Sure, he's a sponsored rider who isn't going to tell the media that Fox's future halo product is a dud, but given that he chose to race (and win) on the shock soon after, I'm inclined to take him at his word.
But my point here isn't about the electronics.
I'm not trying to convince you that electronic shocks are necessary or even an advantage. The really interesting thing about this shock is that it's essentially a Float X: a consumer-friendly, lightweight and relatively simple single-tube air shock. Jesse and Richie were apparently willing to switch from four-way adjustable, twin-tube shocks (a coil X2 in Jesse's case and a Float X2 in Richie's) to what is essentially a simpler damper (albeit with an automatic lockout switch), and it didn't seem to be a problem on one of the roughest EWS courses.
The RockShox Super Deluxe shock is relatively low on features but high on WC and EWS wins.
And while we're at it, it's worth remembering that every RockShox athlete in EWS and downhill is running a single-tube shock with two external damping adjusters.
Suspension Nanny isn't the worst title...
So while most of the comments on the article about Fox's prototype electronic shock were complaining that we don't need more expensive and more complicated bikes (and I'm inclined to agree), my takeaway is the opposite. Ignore the electronics - an air shock with a relatively simple damper was good enough for the two fastest enduro racers in the world right now on one of the gnarliest courses. So, do we need twin-tube, four-way adjustable dampers with thousands of combinations of clicker settings? Do we need coil springs on enduro bikes? After all, a relatively simple air shock that's cheap, light and easy to set up has got to be a benefit for the average rider.
Which of these dials do I turn to ride faster?
So, which shock features do you need?
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By the way, I tested them all but paid for none. Comes with the job. So I am not one of those trying to justify their purchase.
Then again, I know I'll probably never be buying anything in the 4-knobs price range so maybe I'm just justifying my own cheapskate/luddite views lol.
The number of setup options we have must rival F1, where they have teams of engineers running design of experiments to optimise the system. We have can pressure, positive volume, negative volume, HSC, LSC, HSR, LSR, hydraulic bottom out, not to mention aftermarket links. There's no way an average human can optimise that lot, especially once you factor in tiredness, line choice run to run, bias, etc...
I'm not talking about people riding around on grossly mis-tuned shocks that bob and bottom out constantly. I'm just saying the vast majority of riders get a shock/fork to "good enough to not be annoying" settings and just ride. If you listen to experts talk about how suspension really gets tuned and optimized (change a setting, do a run, write down observations, repeat), it's a really time consuming process. Most people don't do that.
You can spend the time riding and having fun, just make notes and think about adjustments after / before the next ride. This is half the fun for me though.
@Toyoter91 @hallj2 I used to like dicking around with my setup a lot more before I had kids... I keep the settings in my phone but haven't changed anything in years (other than for weight loss). For the most part, I only notice really coarse damper adjustments so I've always been pretty meh about turning the knobs.
My Push feels good now, but it took one rebuild, a new spring rate, and a massive departure from every f*cking setting they sent me for my "custom" tune (that happens to be the same tune they give to 44 year old middle managers at small market cap B2B companies).
I have a collection of long notepad files in my phone for the various suspension units on my bikes.
Partly it's enjoying the nerdery, partly it's living dadlife and doing most of my riding solo.
I'm still slower than half my friends, but I enjoy the process. You do you.
But coils are so good. Night and day difference for me over air. I wish l could get a coil for my baby shocked xc/trail bike that would be awesome!
Last weekend I f*cked my hands at my local bike park because of my fork air pressure. Before that I spent 2 weeks riding bike parks in the Alps by 30deg minimum and had my fork adjusted to work well. Turns out riding by 20deg and 500m lower resulted in a loss of roughly 10psi which made the fork ride like crap.
If you ride air you should be willing to check your pressure before each ride, and probably during your ride if you are at the bike park where usually mornings are much cooler than afternoon. I am not willing to do that so I need to convert my fork to coil as well, done with the faffing.
I also bought a coil shock, and while it is nice, the performance gains are not nearly as good as in the fork.
Added to that, the coil rubbed a lot on the shock and for a year now I can't get the right coil for my weight. So I went back to the simple Fox DPX2 and I'm really fine.
But I don't think I can ever go back from the Vorsprung Smashpot in the front. It's not just the coil, the hydraulic bottom out is magic too.
15 mins gets you in the ballpark, and that’s what most are after. In reality, any additional tuning will be lost on most, as the differences are subtle, and come at the sharp end of performance, most aren’t riding there.
The Grip and Charger damper is more than capable for most, with easy to use and understand knobs and settings.
No judgment, just curious how common that is.
Just wait
They’ll tell you
Where did you get the base tune from, bike or suspension manufacturer?
What suspension were you working on?
Honestly curious, no judgment here.
I spend lots of time knob twiddling, and trying new things, part of the enjoyment for me, but I recognize it’s not for everyone.
Several friends feel the same way as you.
Did a poll amongst 20 or so riding buddies about how often they check sag, want to say under 20% do it with any sort of regularity, which was surprising at first, but I better understand their sentiment
Sag is determined by the spring rate, hence the need for different springs based on rider weight.
Sprindex alters the spring rate (within a certain range) by reducing the amount of active coils in the spring.
So you can alter the sag (spring rate) using a Sprindex, but it needs to fall within a predetermined range that Sprindex works in.
If we're talking about: Preload factor of x = more force required to move coil (no idea how to notate that mathematically but I get the feeling you do) then okay, I'm with ya chief.
But now I'm all messed up, because now that I think about it, I DID adjust the preload on my coil to change the sag rate....or at least I think I did. I have a CC coil and that thing took me quite a while to dial in. AND I haven't touched it since then.
Seriously, I don't even know what we're talking about now. Something about Sprindex :/
Ignoring The slight increase in friction due to larger seals in the air shock, and really small transient effects due to heat transfer, the only difference between an air spring and a coil spring should be spring rate? The spring rate of the air-spring will follow the ideal gas law (restorative force is a nonlinear function of travel) whereas the spring rate of the coil is constant (restorative force is a linear function of travel).
When I find time to ride my expensive bike I don't want to be thinking about how it's not working properly.
I had a float X2. As per the other comments it was excellent when it worked, but that wasn't often enough.
I changed it for a Bomber CR which I had tuned and it's been set and forget ever since.
Simple may not reach the peak levels of the fancy stuff but it ruins less rides.
Also, road car dampers just have to work "well enough." Any sort of high-performance racing damper for a car or truck that's actually used in competition is getting rebuilt at least once a season. Hell, Koni would bring a semi truck to regional amateur SCCA autocross events and do damper rebuilds while you wait.
My Fox 34 on the other hand officially requires two hugely overpriced tools to remove the lowers (different thread for air and damper side, because reasons). I'll take a Manitou fork or shock for a service before a Fox any day of the week. Fox isn't that bad, but the Manitou stuff is just easier.
Belt sander, with socket on a spinning drill.
You can make that in 15 minutes, grab a 10mm socket from pawn shop and you’re good to go.
Stop whinging and go make stuff
Just make or buy the proper tool.
It’s a $30 socket, to go with your $1000 fork, or $150 shite knipex pliers, surely you can dig deep and get the proper tools.
That said, I agree with @briain - for an extra 2 grams of material they could just allow you to use the socket / box end wrench / whatever that's already in your toolbox. Sure, you don't have to be a genius machinist to grind the chamfer off a socket, but requiring that tool in the first place is just stupid engineering.
1. I've never heard anybody knowledgeable call Knipex pliers "shite"
2. If you paid $150, you were ripped off. I've paid 45. However...
3. You're absolutely right about using the right tools, especially on sensitive and expensive equipment like suspension.
Also think of it as a bit of a “gate keeper” keeps the apes out of the gubbins, worst case scenario they round the easily replaced top cap.
So, if you ever see someone with a rounded off top cap, take note, and stay away from their equipment
Stop asking for things to be easier, it’s your opportunity to learn and grow……and buy the proper tools
In Canada, a 12” set, (which is what I priced, as I work and make a living with my tools) at KMS tools, was $142, with tax, a little over $160, 10” ones, were around $127 I think. Granted you can prolly get em on sale, but you can say the same about anything, and they weren’t when I priced them.
Knipex pliers are definitely not the right tool to use to take off the top cap of your expensive suspension products, and if you ever witness a shop mechanic using them as such, I suggest you remove your equipment from them.
Pro mechs are unders time, weight, and size constraints that you and I aren’t, couple that with the likely hood of top caps being as easy as sweets on Halloween to get from either Fox or RS, or the other 10 teams means they can, and likely do mar the hell out of them. Cause getting the bike working right for practice, and race is more important than if the corners are rounded.
Now if you paid your local shop to do it, and it came back rounded, you’d likely whinge so loud they we’d hear you here in Canada……
Do it compare what a pro mech has or does vs what you know you should be doing.
If you ground down your socket, and sorted that out, celebrate that, and tell all your friends, don’t complain that you were pushed to use your ingenuity and solve a problem, revel in that fact, that’s f*ckin cool!
@onawalk: So we should be thanking Fox (or whoever) for providing us with an "opportunity to learn and grow" by fabbing/buying an unnecessary specialized tool? That's definitely a hot take.... I guess we should all celebrate every time a new BB interface comes out too...
And what exactly am I supposed to be "learning" by grinding off a socket anyway? I'm not opposed to that sort of problem solving and DIYing if you're trying to restore a vintage bike with hard to source parts, or experimenting with a mix-and-match drivetrain, or something like that. But for a company to require that for a current high-end product, when it provides no benefit over a standard tool interface, is just stupid.
I dont think I made any purchasing suggestions outside of some specialized tools to service the expensive suspension products you own, and I still stand by that suggestion.
I have no use for Knipex pliers, they aren’t the right tool for the job in most cases, and dont provide the quick one handed ease of adjustment of slip joint pliers (which are really only the right tool in select circumstances)
So the added cost, and complexity does me no real good. If they work for you great, but clearly not the right tool for removing the top cap of your fork.
Not sure I understand the issue if you were able to sort out grinding down a socket to get it to work, should everyone make things that you can take apart with a hammer for ease of service?
Apologies for all the typos in the previous reply, Jeez I was all over the place.
Quite simply to keep ham fisted clowns from getting into the internal gubbins. It’s also a real good indicating device to shop techs, and suspension techs that some ham fisted baboon with a dull hammer has tried to get into this, so beware, and take note.
Hot take for sure, These are challenges to be overcome with intelligence and ingenuity. Opportunity lies in what others feel is impossible or difficult, embrace the opportunity, stop asking for things to be easier.
I believe you, and everyone else has the ability, and brains to work through those situations. Then you get to celebrate the success of it all.
Or
Simply drop the bike off with the guys at the bike shop, and let them know what you need, easy easy.
If the tool was unnecessary, well you wouldn’t need it would you, seems like the tool is necessary to be able to get the job done correctly.
I’m not sure I understand your or @briain compliant. You both seemed to solve the problem you were faced with……Or is it that you didn’t actually solve the problem, f*cked up the top cap being ham fisted, and only both said you were aware of grinding down a socket after someone else mentioned it to you?
Also, if that's the design intent then IMO they failed completely. The cap isn't recessed, so it doesn't keep the "clowns" out. And it fails as a telltale bc a marred top cap tells me basically nothing about the fork... for all I know a pristine top cap means it hasn't been serviced for 1000 hours.
I solved the problem. But the only reason the problem existed is bc someone wanted to make my job harder or make money selling aftermarket sockets or something, which is not something to celebrate IMO.
Who knows what you have in your tool box, again are companies meant to make everything removable with a hammer so you have less to complain about?
I just don’t understand the complaints regarding something that was easily remedied, it would have taken 5 mins to solve the problem, that’s pretty easy. Top cap on RS stuff requires a cassette tool, fairly specialized tool outside of cycling, is that a concern as well?
Again, your satisfaction with the Fox suspension was never the question.
It’s a more expensive product in Europe due to taxes, or levies, or import duties etc, not because it’s a better made product.
What about the cassette tool required for a RS top cap?
Do you honestly believe that “big fork” is out there hoping and praying that they can make some extra money on selling you a socket? I don’t understand how you can walk around in your daily life thinking the whole world is out to get you like that.
Upper management at these companies are sitting around a table sleeving ways to get an extra $30 out of you, while selling you a branded and anodized socket, just raking in the money. Wild
The cassette tool thing a a great example actually, I think that was a great choice:
(1) it's a preexisting, multi-purpose tool that most DIY bike mechanics already have, and can be purchased at every bike shop (and even at Walmart) with no hacking / grinding / modding needed. And it serves multiple purposes on bikes (internal BBs, lockrings, now top caps too), whereas my 27mm thin-lipped chamferless suntour socket is good for exactly one thing. Fox alone uses 3 different chamferless socket sizes depending on the fork/damper. It's silly.
(2) it does a better job of "clown-proofing", if that's what the mfr is after (can't use knipex pliers / channel locks on a lockring interface)
(3) nobody is going accidentally stick a standard socket on it and round off the corners because it's blatantly obvious that it's not a hex head.
IMO "let's make it look pretty much like a standard tool interface, but also make it so you can damage it with a standard tool, so we can see if someone tried to use a standard tool" is still a dumb reason IMO. And even if that is the design intent, I'd argue it's executed much better (and in a way less likely to result in damage to the fork) on the RS lockring tool interface.
A standard tool to be is something I can go down to a hardware store and buy there not modify with a belt grinder as @bkm303 points out a tool with single use is a pain in the arse. I actually agree with you that fox are making their products harder to self repair which is something I'm philosophically against. As far as Foxes pricing is Europe goes it isn't just taxes cause rockshox or manitou pricing isn't comparable. So if I'm paying Mercedes money I want Mercedes quality not Ford quality. Just to preempt your next question why did I buy fox suspension I didn't it came on the bike and honestly next time I'll avoid the fox equipped model
Here’s where we prolly differ,
To me a standard, doesn’t mean that’s what everyone now uses (like the great hub debate) a standard is that everyone manufacturing that piece is doing it to the same dimensions.
So everyone making a 32mm socket, is actually making a socket that is 32mm, not 32.5, or 31.8, but 32.
I look at all tools as being specialized tools, I work with them every day, it’s how I provide for my family, so I invest in the proper tools to do the job.
An adjustable tool, is rarely the right tool for the job, it’s just the right enough tool for the job right now. I guess my hope is that you and @bkm303 celebrate the work that you accomplished, rather than complaining about something being difficult.. do you see how doing one, could put a whole different spin on things.
I think it’s f*ckin rad that you guys sorted out a solution, and it worked for you, f*ckin mint, that’s way cool!
If you guys don’t celebrate that, who will?
Great in theory, but I don’t think it offers any substantial advantage over a traditional spring/damper.
Their Ocho fork however, jeez, that doesn’t get near enough credit for what it is.
Dvo jade
Everything
Doublebarre
X2 @pakleni:
1. The shocks perform well and are extremely tunable but what sets it appart is how easy it is to fully service (damper included) and tune with the rockshox tune kit at home with a few affordable tools and a few handy person skills.
2. Rockshox publish all of their standard shock tunes and sell a set of compression and rebound shims to achieve all the possible tunes for a super affordable price.
www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/tuning-manuals/rockshox-rear-shock-piston-tuning-guide.pdf
3. Because you can rebuild these shocks at home your service interval can be whatever you want. I guarantee a fully serviced Rockshox ultimate is going to out perform any other shock that has been smashed for 100 hours since its last rebuild.
4. By reducing you service intervals your shock is going to potentially last a lot longer.
My 2 cents
At this point my dream shock is one I can get parts for.
Also all of their engineering drawings/exploded views for their shocks are awesome, the service manuals are great and they seem a lot more knowledgeable and willing to help a dude tinkering with shocks in his garage than rockshox has been for me at least.
@therealmancub idk if the one little red knob on my shock is high or low speed but it seems fine lol. My ideal shock probably has like 2 knobs (or 1 and a switch), a good base tune, and a low cost.
The exception also happens to be my favorite shock of all time, head and shoulders above anything else I've ridden, the EXT Storia ( and probably Arma), which doesn't have HSR, but it doesn't need it because IT WAS TUNED TO MY FRAME KINEMATICS AND BODY WIEGHT by a professional (Shoutout to Suspension Syndicate). I'm 200 pounds nekked, and M/M tune shocks don't work for me. I either have to run too much LSC or wallow in g-outs & turns. If I only have LSR, the rear end feels bucky after big hits (made worse because I have to over-spring to help fight wallow).
This is why I love Can Creek- yes its hard to tune, but I can get closer to a factory tune made for my body weight. I also think they have the best climb switch in the business.
How would you say that CC works for a 150 rider? was just looking at their shocks yesterday
DVO is also really easy to custom shim, and they answer the phone! Just don't email them haha.
2. Simpler maintenance with self service tool kits. Rock shox are reasonably easy to service but it could be even easier if they were designed for it.
3. For high end shocks, the next big thing should be built in telemetry and a corresponding app that gives you tuning recommendations based on real data from your local trails.
How many riders ACTUALLY know that HIGH SPEED and LOW SPEED is not the rate of speed they ride at and actually the velocity the shock is travelling in it's stroke.
Just asking the general masses and their thoughts.
I've met many riders with 4 knob shock adjustments that had no idea what the adjustments do - they bought it because it was already spec'd on their bike or because it was the most expensive and shiny new thing.
To me, there’s a direct correlation between bike speed on trails and shock shaft speed.
Do you mean frequency, which is not quite the same as shaft speed.
Jokes aside, you are right. But we live in a sport that basically is 99% marketing plus 1% engineering.
Most manufacturers would only provide you with photoshopped marketing graphes anyway.
Trust me, I have seen those more often than I care to remember.
Also, there is a lot of stuff you can hide in dyno runs if you know what you are doing.
So even if manufacturers were to give you some kind of dyno charts... ...I would still retest everything.
the Air shock had the ability to run the megneg so a heavier Rider could get coil like small bump while having coil mid stroke but air shock ramp at the end.
one of my bikes has both the new 2023 Lyrik and 2023 SDU, Bit early to really get a "i love longtime" but they are good.
i think If a shock was 90% as good as the top stuff but a PB armchair engineer from the comments can rebuild it in 30mins, thats a winner.
Other things the shock should have:
Non-trunnion, non-yoke, spherical bearings to prevent binding.
Air spring with a linear spring curve like a coil for easier tuning and lighter weight. (larger positive and negative volumes) This helps mid-stroke support without hurting small bump compliance.
Hydraulic bottom-out to prevent bottoming without returning too much energy. This might simplify the HSR valve.
Large damper oil volume and cooling fins to prevent fade on 20+ minute fast and rough descents.
Lockout lever on the shock body for the road. The bike to match would pedal well enough to not need a climb switch for anything but smooth tarmac.
Mid-valve or some alternative to improve flashing and cavitation prevention.
Thru-shaft, high end seals, kashima, and all the other friction reducing goodies to reduce friction and hysteresis.
Matching fork and shock descend modes. I'd like to see front and rear suspension have 3 position downhill damper switches to select between flow/jump trails, chunky teck, and a do-it-all mode in between. Some current products have this, but I don't think I've seen a fork/shock pairing that retains the dynamic bike balance while using alternate settings.
All the above features already exist on various products, but I'm not aware of any single product that checks all those boxes. This one below may never exist for MTB.
True semi-active suspension. This exists in other applications, but not in MTB. Live valve and flight attendant aren't it. I suspect that power requirements (big batteries) would be the most limiting factor, so maybe we'll see it in E-bikes in the next decade.
My wish list is coil + HABS + custom shim stack set up by a competent tuner (lots of HSC + LSC with enough port volume to avoid spiking, medium-slow rebound). Why? Reliability, predictability, and preferred feel. EXT Arma satisfies those criteria, just need to take the plunge and buy one for myself.
Good suggested base settings by the manufacturer are great, adding additional base settings for different riding styles could help a lot to understand how things interact for different weight ranges.
I will say Ive had much better luck getting an RS Super Deluxe Ultimate Dialed as well as Mara Pro, but no where near the same wheel tracking of the Coil n Oil properly setup.
Not to mention you dont need to service the can every 50 hours to keep it feeling butter. I've seen many people who get a coil second hand and dont bother to get the spring rate dialed or even bother to figure out what tune they have, then complain.
Why? Because vs the Float X2, it is silent, and doesn’t have too many adjustments, and each click makes a noticeable difference.
Coil: new Rockshox Super Deluxe Ultimate Coil with HBO and an MRP progressive spring
Why? Because vs the Bomber CR it had lockout, and vs the DHX2, it doesn’t have too many adjustments, and on RS suspension the differences between clicks are more noticeable.
Things that would make me happier with the EXT:
Lower Cost
Quieter
Lighter
The ability to make it a touch more progressive
Lighter
My 165mm frame has 27.5% progression and a regular coil works fine. However, my 140mm frame only has 13% progression, but w/ the CC link went up to 145mm travel and 20% progression rate. I still needed a little help to re-gain that pop I had with the DPX2 and so a Cane Creek progressive VALT fills the gap, mated to my 11.6. That and the HBO on this new version of the shock too rounds out that aspect I was looking for.
The Storia V3 and the latest PUSH 11.6 >> Fox DHX2, Float X2, DPS, DPX2, RS Monarch, Manitou Mastodon for my bikes, my riding style, my local terrain, and my level of mechanical competence. On a short, easy ride I wouldn't notice much difference, but once the chunk and big hits are found, that's when my confidence remains unfazed on the coil. YMMV.
Storia V3: €925
PUSH 11.6: €1,399
Fox DPS: €450
Manitou Mastodon: €635
Not really comparable, are they?
Looking forward to the reality shock article.
Rockshox on the other hand, has three pre set tunes for comp and three for rebound, which means a bunch of potential tunes that frame mfrs had to pick from. And they had to assume some average rider weight range (usually about 30lbs). DPX2 and FloatX are similar.
If you get the tune right, of course the shock is gonna be great. Get the tune wrong and not so much. Or have some fatty jump on your bike and the tune will feel like poo.
Now if you could take the big beautiful X2 airspring and match it up to a simpler but specifically tuned damper, it would be an amazing shock.
Fwiw, best shock I ever ran was a tuned Bomber to my frame and weight. Tuner set it up so I'm right in the middle of the clickers and I'm one click off from his recommendations. I'm also over 190 lbs, which is about as high as OEMs go for tuning.
I mean, the last click made it better ,right? sooo
It would have Robot voices, (that sound like Marilyn Monroe )
that verbally say things like,,
“You have reached your optimum setting for ???”
Or ,”do not try one more click of ??? Do not click, dial, or turn any knobs any further or I will kick your skinny a$$ and explode “
“Keep you F%#king hands OFF my knobs “
“Thank you, would you like a beer”
But then I also ride a Shorty on the front all year cos I can't be bothered to swap it out. I just get used to whatever I've got, get good at that setup and don't really ever find myself wanting for more. My fitness, whether I sat funny in my work chair or what I've eaten that day has a far bigger impact on my riding than the shock settings tbh.
I haven't touched the (2) rebound knobs on my Grip2 since initial shakedown when I got my pressure and tokens dialed 2 years ago (and those haven't changed either).
It's not like it's some kind regular maintenance to spin all the knobs, it's just stupid humans doing the fiddling.
I repeat: more knobs does not mean that more initial fiddling, nor constant fiddling, is _required_. It just means it's _possible_. If you don't like fiddling at all, you leave them in the recommended place, and if you like set & forget, then you just set them, and, umm forget them.
Less knobs isn't really set and forget, it's just plain forget, because there is less to set.
obviously I'm neurotic.
If you feel an unstoppable urge to tinker, are you also tweaking fork and shock pressures (or adjusting a Sprindex) for "every trail & conditions"? Tire pressure? Frame geo adjust if applicable? Your neuroses don't change the fact that every damper, every adjustment, is "set & forget" if you want it to be, but some are literally "can't set, forget it", no matter how neurotic you are.
Also, most people seem to think compression damping is a good adjustment to correct for the wrong spring rate, this seems to be a mistake that even industry people make, how did that get started?
\m/
when you look at optimizing for racing application (DH, enduro, dirt bikes, whatever) - the point of optimal traction is slightly different than the point of optimal comfort, but they are not far off of each other- pro dh teams are using allot of data collection and analytics for this reason- how the bike feels best is not the same as when the bike is fastest leads the consumer down a path of confusion and everything "setup" becomes abstract - "I can't feel adjuster changes" or "A bracketing process sounds too hard or complicated"
I agree, that most issues are caused by setup errors or lack of maintenance -
perhaps the message needs to be "setup is important, follow the setup process exactly, spring rate and rebound are most important, trust the process"?
I agree that the high and low adjusters blend into one rebound curve, I am aware there is major brand out there selling that their shock's high and low speed adjusters are completely independent, but we don't buy it
We are thinking the HSR still dominates the curve where the LSR only effects the initial rebound stroke (similar to LSC)
I like that you add that in addition to educating riders, many riders might need support in recognizing sensations and building their perception skills of what is happening with their bike on the trail
Compression can be be used to limit travel - Low speed compression was originally marketed as a feature that can create a "peddle platform" so the shock only really opens for bigger hits, thus limited the travel for smaller hits to make more efficient pedaling
The latest hype feature "Hydraulic bottom out", we feel is just ending stoke compression damping (another way to make suspension spring rate feel more progressive for aggressive sendy riders)
In a compression stroke, you might land off of a drop at full extension, almost instantaneously blowing through the low speed compression circuit and ending up in high speed for (effectively) the full travel used. As a result, high speed compression is A more useful adjustment for tuning the fork/shock.
Conversely, when rebounding, all of the force is generated by the compressed spring (coil or air), which exerts maximum force at the beginning of the rebound stroke. The force decreases as the shock returns to full extension, reducing the shaft speed. As a result, only the initial, high force (high speed) part of the rebound stroke is handled by the high speed rebound circuit. The rest of the rebound stroke is through the low speed circuit, as there just isn’t enough force in the shock spring through the full travel. Not sure exactly what percentage it would be, as that depends on the shock, the tune, the spring rate, etc. My general understanding is that it is a (perhaps small) majority in favor of the low speed circuit.
All of my forks have grip2 dampers because I want to have both anyway, so it is sort of moot. As you mentioned, the interaction between high and low circuits also cannot be ignored.
I did double check the websites for fox and rockshox and neither of them claimed that the single rebound knob was for high or low specifically, so perhaps I’ve misread this in the past, things have changed, or I just forgot!
I think your making a very common mistake in thinking compression is spring rate - I will explain - when you go off that jump and your suspension fulled extends before landing is it spring rate (not compression) that is catching you and absorbing that hit - compression only adjusts the timing of the stroke to the degree you have damping - Compression is inversely related to rebound - As you increase mass and speed you will need more rebound damping to control the bike, inversely as you add mass and speed you will need relatively less compression damping - (physics)
I would argue after you compress, rebound is a constant force (not changing) based off the spring rate - probably slightly changing for progressively wound springs and air tends to be progressive
In regard to high / low - LSC compression came to the bicycle market in the form of "pedaling platforms" but it has been used in auto racing and motorcycle racing for a way to stabilize cars through hard corners and counter brake-dive, and acceleration stink bug in bikes - After LSC was in the marketplace people made the argument you need matching LSR for your LSC - My feeling is LSR only effected the initial rebound stroke and is by far the adjuster most difficult to feel and most obscure and opaque for consumers to understand
Does that all make sense?
Nearly everything said there was wrong. Sorry.
If you only have 1 rebound adjuster on a damper, it is always LSR.
During a compression event, the compression damping circuit and the spring both work to slow you down.
As you add mass and speed you will need more compression damping. As you add springrate you will need more rebound damping.
The force exerted by the spring is definitely not constant during the rebound stroke
LSC is not the same as a pedal platform. Usually pedal platforms work by using a preloaded high speed valve. Yes the lsc has to be (relatively) closed for them to function, but its the high speed circuit doing the work.
The low speed rebound adjuster is by far the most obviously felt adjustment, and easiest for the customer to understand, as it (for most mtb shock designs) does the lions share of the work on the rebound stroke.
As far as rebound goes, the deeper in the travel you are, the more initial force the spring will have to accelerate toward top out. Think about a 500 pound spring- 1 inch of compression on that spring is 500 pounds, 2 inches is 1000 pounds, 3 inches is 1500 pounds. The force during extension is absolutely not constant, as you suggested. If extending from 3 compressed inches, there is far more force than from 1 inch. As a result, only the extension events of the shock that is deep into its travel even result in shaft speeds fast enough to get into the high speed rebound circuit. Anything below that threshold (the majority of rebound events as we ride around not bottomed out) will be handled by low speed rebound. Like I said, I’m running forks with grip2 dampers, as well as X2s on my bikes, so I am trying to make useful changes to both high and low. It’s just that if I were forced to only have one, I’d choose low.
HSR, or really just rebound is the main rebound circuit
I am a heavier DH rider and we also do some work on high power e-bikes (heavier) as weight increases if you increase compression damping (everything else being equal), the fork is much more likely to start "stacking" up on repeated hits, it starts to experience hydraulic locking and this makes the ride much more harsh - compression is inversely related to rebound
I think your understanding of LSC vs HSC is fairly spot on, a hard fast hit will quickly overload the LSC and goto the HSC circuit
When I look charts that show the effect (change) of LSC or LSR it generally only effect the very start of the curve - (bigger / faster hits easily overwell this setting)
I understand the spring rate (500lbs) is roughly the weight or pressure required to compress the spring 1" - The constant is the rate of 500lbs/inch to compress or remove and uncompress- In terms of rebound speed, the speed is controlled by how much rebound damping is controlling that expansion- that is what rebound damping does- what are we trying to figure out here?
Basically the old version of the RS SuperDeluxe Coil: Low maintenance, decent performance, few but effective adjustments, very DIY friendly.
1 rebound, 1 comp.
Thing made my bike a magic carpet
Me: Absolutely invisibile, I ride hardtails.
I have found their guides nicely straightforward and thorough. Granted, I have not followed all of them through. If anything they include unnecessary steps here and there- the damper bleed on the Jade, for example, seems like the long way around to get all the air out, but it works.
m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=527083518796478
Hope the link show the photo.
There simply isn't enough room. There isn't enough room for my Cane Creek InLine :-\