Review: Öhlins TTX2 Air Shock

Mar 25, 2022 at 5:09
by Seb Stott  


If any suspension product can be described as iconic, it's Öhlins' TTX shock. Apart from its illustrious motorsport heritage, the twin-tube shock with its distinctive yellow spring has won many World Cups and accolades in its own right in the MTB world. But wherever you sit on the air vs coil debate, the vast majority of us ride air shocks. Öhlins has an air shock too, but it remains a rare sight compared to air-sprung rivals from Fox and RockShox and is often overlooked for its coil counterpart. So is that any good?

Öhlins released their first MTB air shock (the STX22) in 2015. It used a single-tube design in a bid to save weight, and to be honest, it was a bit of a flop. First released in 2018, the TTX air combines an air spring with Öhlins' signature twin-tube damper (like the coil shock), which means the damping oil circulates between two concentric tubes, rather than being pushed back and forth inside a single tube. If you want to find out more about the differences between single tube and twin-tube dampers, I'd recommend this video.

There are two variants of the TTX air - the TTX1 and the TTX2. The difference being the TTX2 has more air volume in both the positive and negative spring, thanks to a twin-can design (there's a sleeve around the main air can which offers extra volume and can be tuned with volume-reducing bands). This makes the TTX2 more linear, so it's recommended for more progressive or longer travel bikes. If you're not sure which is right for you, Öhlins has an online tool to recommend the most appropriate shocks (as well as baseline settings) for your bike.

I bolted a TTX2 air onto a familiar Privateer 161 to see if Öhlins' air shock has been unfairly ignored.

TTX2 Air Shock Details

Intended Use: Trail/Enduro
Spring System: Dual chamber air with transfer port and volume spacers
Damper System: TTX Twin Tube
Mounting: Trunnion or standard eyelet
Adjustments: Low-speed compression and low-speed rebound via 3 mm Allen key (13 clicks each), high-speed compression (2 settings) plus "pedal" mode via thumb lever, air pressure, volume spacers
Weight: 524g (205x65mm w/hardware) - an equivalent RockShox SuperDeluxe is 540g
Price: €915.71 / £825 / $780 USD
More info: Öhlins MTB

The TTX1 on the left and TTX2 (right).

The TTX1 is capable of being very progressive for linear suspension designs, while the TTX2 offers a more linear spring curve for bikes with more progression from the frame.

Details & Features

The layout of the TTX2 Air's damper is a little different from its coil counterpart. With the coil, the rebound adjuster is on the bottom of the shock and adjusts the valving on the main piston, whereas the air shock's rebound adjuster is located on the reservoir and controls the oil flow as it passes from the outer tube to the inner one. This layout is more similar to what you'd see on a Cane Creek shock or older versions of the Fox X2.

The low-speed compression and low-speed rebound adjusters both require a 3 mm Allen key to adjust. Opposite them is a high-speed compression lever which can be toggled by hand. It offers two settings for high-speed compression damping, plus a third position that closes off the low- and high-speed damping for a firmer platform for climbing.

The way the high-speed compression adjustment works is a little different to most dampers. Usually, when you turn the high-speed adjuster clockwise, it preloads a spring which in turn holds the high-speed valve shut more tightly. In the TTX, the high-speed adjuster changes the path the oil takes as it enters the shim stack. In the firmer setting, the oil enters the shim stack nearer the middle, so it has a tougher time pushing open the shims to flow past - a bit like pushing open a heavy door from nearer the hinges. The downside to this design is it limits you to two or three high-speed settings (flow paths), but Öhlins say it offers a more proportionate damping response when compared to a preloaded valve which "pops open" at a certain compression speed. This reasoning is not dissimilar to Fox's rationale for introducing their VVC valving, found in their GRIP2 forks and the rebound side of the latest X2 shock.

The air spring on this TTX2 model uses a sleeve to increase the available volume in the positive chamber so as not to make it too progressive with more progressive frame designs. This in turn allows for a slightly larger negative chamber for a softer initial stroke.

The volume of the positive air chamber can be adjusted in two ways: by changing the size of the volume spacer in the eyelet of the shock or by adding or removing volume bands in the sleeve. This is a little confusing, especially as the eyelet spacers aren't marked with their volume and different combinations of eyelet spacer and sleeve spacers could deliver the same total volume, but it does the job of tuning the progression through a wide range. Despite being designed to be more linear than the TTX1, the TTX2 can be made quite progressive with the maximum volume spacers.

The air spring works in a similar way to most others on the market, with an air piston that sits between a positive and a negative air chamber and a transfer port to allow the two to equalise at a certain point in the travel. The air valve on the sleeve can be set to various angles to make it easier to access depending on the frame.




Seven questions with Öhlins Racing Technician, Terje Hansen

How does the damping compare between the air and the coil shock?


In general, we are using way more damping in coil shocks compared to air shock due to the performance and function of an air spring. [This is because an air spring acts a bit like a damper - it absorbs some energy during compression and turns it into heat - so less hydraulic damping is required.]

It feels like the rebound damping is light and free-moving at slow speeds, but not too fast when returning from deep in the travel. Am I right in thinking it's a relatively linear rebound tune?


You’re correct!, we have chosen a linear rebound damping curve (in all Öhlins products more or less), some bikes need more or less low-speed damping. There’s a lot of comfort and traction win or lost in the right choice of rebound damping. The better of a rider is, the less rebound you need. [Cue every Pinkbike reader running their rebound fully open from now on.]

Do you offer different damping base tunes for different suspension designs or riding styles?


The setting that the shock comes with, in the box, is something we have tested on a lot of different bikes and we feel we have made the best compromise with our choice to fit as many bikes as possible. With the external clickers, air pressure and volume spacer you as a customer would come a long way in chase of the perfect performance of your suspension

With the coil shock there is a setting bank for service centres to adjust the base tune via shims to suit different bikes - is the same true for the air shock?


Yes, you could easily do a setting change at an Öhlins service centre if it’s needed to adapt more to your weight, riding style or if you had the shock on one frame model and then you change to a bike that requires a different setup due to different leverage and anti-squat. Öhlins provides setting banks for every product category we make to the service centres to help them choose a setting they might need.

How can I tell what size of volume spacer I have in the eyelet end of the shock? They don't seem to be marked?


No, and that’s something we are working on, attached is a chart of spacers on page 11.

Does the firmness of the climbing mode depend on the LSC adjuster position, or is it independent?


They work independently on the TTX Air.

You no longer make the single-tube STX shock, right? What do you see as the main advantages of twin-tube over a single tube for an air shock?


The main advantages with TTX technology is the adjustability from the external adjuster, more responsive and controlled buildup of damping which gives the riders a controlled behaviour of the bike.

Why does the TTX air have the rebound adjuster at the head of the shock while the coil has it at the eyelet?


The TTX Air has a solid shaft and a different position for the one-way valve compared to TTX 22 M [coil] and therefore it’s possible to have the rebound adjuster in the head.



I tested on a familiar platform: a Privateer 161.

Setup


Test Bike Details

Rear travel: 161 mm
Shock stroke: 65 mm
Average leverage ratio: 2.48
Overall progression: 17%
Fork pairing: Fox 38 Factory @ 180 mm & RockShox Zeb w/ Secus @ 190 mm
Rider Weight: 88 Kg

Öhlins' online suspension guide recommends appropriate products for your bike and starting spring settings based on your weight and sag preference. I weigh about 88 kg in full riding gear and I chose to test on a Privateer 161. To achieve 28% sag at the shock, it recommends setting the TTX2 with 202 psi and 10 CC of volume spacers. This did indeed give me about 18mm (28%) sag and a good overall setting, though I could afford to go a touch softer for mellower, more natural terrain.

The online tool doesn't make recommendations for damping settings, but I ended up with LSC 5-10 clicks from closed, rebound 6-7 clicks and I toggled the High-speed compression lever between its settings regularly: setting 1 for natural terrain, 2 for bike-park/DH and 3 for climbing.
The Privateer has a fairly progressive suspension design; there's a 17% drop in leverage ratio from 0% to 100% travel. Importantly for bottom-out resistance, most of this progression occurs after sag.


Performance


I did sweeps for all the adjusters (testing from fully open to fully closed on the same section of tack) and the range isn't super wide. Even with everything fully closed, it's still totally rideable (if too damped for my liking). So if you're the kind of person who prefers (or you think you prefer) a really damped feel, or if your bike has a very high leverage ratio, you may need to get a firmer base tune than stock. At the other end of the scale, the shock is pretty hard to ride with the rebound fully open (at least with the pressure and bike I'm running it with) as it tops out all the time. That means for lighter riders or bikes with lower leverage ratios, there should be scope to get it running fast enough for most people. While the range of adjustment isn't massive, I'd say it's well-judged for teh majority of riders in the middle part of the bell curve.

The recommended setup is quite progressive. Running 28% sag (202 psi) I was only using all the travel on the biggest landings like tagging the landing of a large stepdown. A small difference to pressure/sag makes a big difference though - 195 psi allows the use of all the travel more regularly and is noticeably softer. My optimum window was in the 190-202 psi range. I tried removing a volume spacer from the air sleeve, but overall I preferred using a touch more sag and generous progression to add resistance towards the end.

For my weight and bike combination, you can't go too far wrong with the settings unless you run the rebound too open. Because of the linear rebound curve, running the rebound fast makes it feel too keen to over-extend and almost top-out when the bike is unweighted - for example when going over a crest, popping out of a turn or riding seated over a lump while climbing. The flip side is the suspension can flutter over high-frequency chatter (e.g. braking bumps) while still feeling calm and controlled when landing and going deep into the travel. Having back-to-back tested linear vs digressive rebound tunes in both Fox and RockShox shocks, my current impression is that the linear tune has a narrower window in the adjustment range that works well, but it can offer a suppler yet safer ride, especially on fast terrain.
Here's a diagram to help explain what's meant by linear and digressive damping curves - and also to show off my skill with Microsoft Paint.

The compression adjustment is usable for me at either extreme, but you can use the low-and high-speed compression adjusters to meaningfully fine-tune the support and balance of the bike. Depending on the shock tune, I often find the LSC adjuster on a RockShox SuperDeluxe adds too much harshness on small bumps before it makes a meaningful difference to chassis stability, so I often tend to run it fully open. Whereas the TTX seems to make more of a difference to stability relative to small-bump harshness.

Having to get a tool out to adjust the low-speed damping can be a pain, but I regularly used the HSC lever to pick between the two settings (1 for steep and natural, 2 for jumps and berms). There's something to be said for a simple choice of two distinct positions over a range of twenty-something barely distinguishable clicks - you're more likely to actually use the adjustment if it's tool-free and easy to keep track of. That said, the two HSC settings aren't wildly different and I wouldn't mind a third HSC setting (like you get on the DH lengths of the coil version) in addition to the climbing mode.

Speaking of which, the climbing mode is a nice balance between firmness and comfort. I'd say it's firmer than the climb switch on a Fox Float X2 but softer than most SuperDeluxe tunes. It makes the bike sit up noticeably higher at the rear and cuts pedalling oscillations nicely when sated, yet still allows the suspension to do its thing when the terrain gets rough. It's ideal for off-road technical climbing. The firmer setting found on most SuperDeluxe shocks (again, the firmness of the RockShox climb mode firmness depends on the shock tune) is better for out of the saddle pedalling and tarmac climbs. Plus, in my opinion, the more unsubtle lockout means you're far less likely to leave it on accidentally for a descent because you're aware of the lockout the whole time. It's up to you what kind of lockout you prefer, but the TTX offers a middle of the road setting.

The shock naturally sits a couple of millimetres into its stroke and extends slightly when the rear wheel is lifted off the ground. The same is true of a Float X2 but not so much a SuperDeluxe, which sits more forcefully against its top-out bumper. In theory, this helps the rear end feel a little more ground-hugging on super rough tracks when the rear wheel is regularly reconnecting with the ground because there is no preload force to overcome before the shock can start moving. But there's no mistaking the TTX air for a coil shock; it's a little stiffer when moving through the first part of the travel and that makes it a little less settled into its travel and stable than a coil shock. I wasn't able to measure the spring curve like I've done in the past but I'd say it feels similar to a SuperDeluxe with a standard air can, though not as linear as that shock fitted with a MegNeg air can.

Damping consistency is hard to say too much about without testing on a damper dyno, but I didn't notice any harshness or bucking towards the end of long descents as I have with some air shocks.

Privateer 161 review

How does it compare?

I've been comparing the TTX to its main rivals throughout this review to try and provide as much context as possible, but during testing, I rode it back-to-back with the RockShox SuperDeluxe Ultimate the Privateer came with. That shock was running the stock LNL1 damping tune and standard (not Megneg) air can.

Comparing shocks is particularly tricky because there are so many variables (suspension design, damping tune and setup). But in this case, I would say the TTX feels a bit more controlled on the big stuff (landings, big compressions etc.) while still being at least as supple over the small stuff. In fact, if anything I felt a touch less harshness through my feet through rough chatter despite testing the TTX with the HSC in setting 2 and the LSC on the SuperDeluxe fully open.

I put this down to the more linear damping tunes making the TTX feel more controlled on big stuff yet suppler on the small stuff, but that's just a hypothesis. Could the SuperDeluxe perform better with a different damping tune installed? Almost certainly. But one advantage of the TTX is the ability to change the HSC damping with a flick of a switch. On the other hand, the option of the MegNeg air can is a big advantage in RockShox's favour, particularly for more linear suspension designs, as it offers a more stable, supportive and supple-off-the top feel. So with a bit of fettling, the RockShox could be as good if not better. As always, suspension performance is 90% about setup.

Speaking of which, RockShox's sag markings, tool-free adjusters and the single type of volume spacer all make it a bit easier to set up.

Servicing


Not that many people pay them any attention, but the recommended service interval on the air sleeve is 100 hours, which is on par with other air shocks. You can do it at home but you will need a shaft clamp as well as the service kit and lubricants.


For a damper service, you'll likely need to send it to your local Öhlins service centre.



Issues


I had one shock which was reluctant to equalise due to a partially blocked transfer port. This meant if I dropped the pressure the shock would "suck down" into its travel and if I increased the pressure it would top out, even after trying to equalise the spring pressures. That shock was sat in a cupboard waiting to be tested for over six months (fully pressurised) so perhaps that has something to do with it. I asked my local suspension tuner (Sprung Suspension) if they'd heard of similar issues with the TTX air and they hadn't. A second shock had no such issues, and the same is true of a TTX1 air shock I have been riding on a YT Izzo. But right out the box, the TTX is quite tricky to equalise. You have to cycle the shock very slowly to find the point where the air passes through the transfer port and there isn't the loud hiss you get with other air shocks. I'd recommend over-pressurising the shock, then equalising it before checking the pressure has gone down so you know air has moved into the negative.






Pros

+ Impressive overall performance in terms of sensitivity, support and control
+ Useable range of adjustment which should be enough for most people, plus settings bank for outliers
+ Nicely-balanced lockout feel

Cons

- Not the most adjustable shock
- Setup takes a bit more care than RockShox
- One shock I tested wouldn't equalise properly
- Pricey





Pinkbike's Take

bigquotesWhy isn't the TTX air a more common choice among frame manufacturers? It's not because it comes up short on the performance front. If anything, the base tune for the TTX2 outperformed the RockShox SuperDeluxe my test bike came with, and I felt no need to dig into Öhlins' settings bank for something different. Though not the most "coil-like", the air spring is impressively supple and predictable. The lockout firmness is well-judged for off-road climbing and the high-speed compression lever is a handy feature to adjust the feel for different terrain.

Setup is less foolproof than the more common RockShox SuperDeluxe, though, and one shock I had was reluctant to equalise. But here's the real rub: it's just very expensive. At UK retail prices, the SuperDeluxe Ultimate is a little over half the price (£468 vs £825) and even a Fox Float X2 Factory is cheaper (£769).
Seb Stott



234 Comments

  • 57 1
 The shock was so expensive they had to resort to rusty bolts to hold it in. Nice juxtaposition. I may have to swap out my X2 for a TTX2, because I am starting to get annoyed with the eventual squelching noise that occurs when air mixes with oil. Beautiful performance, but I feel like it has issues way too often.
  • 30 4
 I'm 4/4 on having to warranty X2's. Every one I've owned I've had to warranty. They are good performing shocks but extremely unreliable. My latest warranty was 3 weeks ago and I came to find out that Fox will no longer cover shipping on warranty stuff. That was kind of a bummer. I'm fortunate in that I have connections to the industry and so I very rarely own bikes for more than a year. I would be nervous buying an X2 or X2 equipped bike that I planned to own for more than 12 months.
  • 4 0
 @Nerra: Are those 2021+ shocks? The new VVC X2 has had some issues but I've had good luck with the previous generation.
  • 4 1
 I can't stand that sound XD. I've personally had the TTX2 on my NS Define for about 7 months and can only sing praises to the overall design and the performance it offers out of the box compared to some of the previous x2 and dpx2 shocks I tested on it. The fact that the shock has fewer clicks of adjustment hasn't seemed to have any tangible impact on the day to day performance.
  • 3 3
 @jeremy3220: 2020 and earlier X2s are some of the best shocks made. 2021+ are some of the worst.
  • 2 0
 The very first X2 where employing a quad ring seal in the bearing assembly, they now use a polyurethane o-ring which solves the issue. There ares till issues with air/oil emulsion but It's usually caused by a wrong o-ring in the service kit now solved as well
  • 3 0
 @jeremy3220: 2 were previous generation and then the last two were the new 21+ X2's.
  • 35 2
 I have this shock. It was good. Then went and got the TTX22M coil. It's even better. My bike now has the TTX22M shock and the RXF36M.2 coil and I can't really imagine anything being much better this setup. I love that Ohlins is in the MTB space. But it's very clear to me that their forte is coil. I wish they'd focus on just coil, instead of trying to outcompete the already overcrowded air shock space. Focus on what you're good at, and be the absolute best at it. For anyone thinking of getting Ohlins, I very much suggest going straight to their coil shock and coil fork. If you want air, go Manitou.
  • 6 0
 I think the rxf 36 coil is my favorite fork of all time
  • 4 1
 @adrennan: It's everything I want in a fork. Easy to self service. Easy to change springs. Great compression and rebound damping. Robust dropouts and an overbuilt crown for extra stiffness. And easily converted back and forth between coil and air configurations. Dozens of shim stack configurations as well to suit any riding style.

The main downsides are it's an involved process to change travel in coil form. Not difficult, but it's not fast either. It's faster to convert from coil to air than it is to change the travel in coil form. And the A2C is longer than other forks of the same travel due to the crown being overbuilt and tall. Other than that, the coil Ohlins offerings are exactly what I expect from them, having had Ohlins suspension on my motorcycles and sportscars in the past.
  • 9 4
 I'm on Ö coils as well and love them. The only downside is the weight but as its been proved many times recently weight doesn't really matter unless you're XC racing.
  • 8 1
 @fartymarty: I'm coining the phrase: "Weight only matters if you're racing in spandex!"
  • 2 0
 @Aleven: I like it.
  • 2 0
 I have said it here before. But you can pry my RXF/TTX coils from my cold dead fingers.
  • 31 0
 100 hrs.... 1000hrs... who's counting....
  • 19 4
 Seems like correct tune is more important than brand on rear shocks these days.

Props to RockShox for having the most home adjustable shocks. MegNeg and volume spacers can dramatically alter how the shock works and are easy to install/change out.

If I got a bike with an Ohlins I’d likely keep it, but not worth the cost for an aftermarket purchase.

Also wish the Ohlins had been tested against an X2.
  • 11 0
 Shocking USD>Euro exchange rate, especially for a European brand (and yes I know US prices are excluding sales tax, but we Europeans always get scr*wed with pricing of US brands, would be nice if the same wouldn't happen with European brands).
  • 3 0
 @Mac1987: My thoughts exactly!! They just suck up NorthAmerica market
  • 8 5
 @bikegreece: spare a thought for the Russian mountain bike crowd, there must be some out there and they're screwed
  • 18 1
 @HankHank: I'd welcome them to move to another country. Better trails, better drinks and above all, usually better leadership (and in the US, better pricing apparently...). Still better for them in Russia than for Ukrainians in Ukraine... Hopefully, Putin finds some sense and ends the war with whatever excuse he can come up with.
  • 13 0
 @HankHank: it's important to note that most anyone is screwed in Russia and sanctions are hitting the simple, average people who are not supporting this war for the most part. It's not Russians who are the enemy, it's the Russian leadership
  • 2 1
 @waldo-jpg: the main goal was hitting influential oligarchs, by taking away their toys and means of making and spending money abroad. Unfortunately, the common Russian is hit as well. With Russia threatening anyone that tries to stop them with 6,000 nukes, there doesn't seem to be a good solution that doesn't hit innocent people with either nuclear war or sanctions.
  • 1 0
 Another pricing difference between the US and other countries is import duties. I've had parts imported from Europe (usually car parts from the UK) and Australia (more car parts) and I've been surprised at how low the import duties can be compared to other countries (I gather Aussie import duties are really high). Typically less than sales tax - which can vary a lot depending on what US State the buyer lives in. Some US states have no sales tax at all.
  • 8 7
 @Mac1987: Yeah right! Western leaders certainly don't have a history of illegal invasions, drone striking civilians, war crimes, supporting beneficial coups, experimenting on their own citizens, selling arms to dubious middle eastern groups or anything like that! Let's just forget about all that, Putin = BAD, west = GOOD, right?

Not saying that Putin is in ANY way in the right, just that we barely have better leadership - ours are just more conniving and subtle about it (sometimes anyway).
  • 7 0
 @Biologybossman: if you scratch the surface (even a little bit..) you will see that every leader, particularly the big guys, have their own fair share of responsibility in this case and in every case up to today. And unfortunately they all try to take advantage of the situation ignoring completely if innocent people are suffering or dying; whether you call them Ukrainians, Russians, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis , Armenians, Jewish, Palestinians and the list keeps going on...

..and I would dare to say do not trust anything from what you hear or see, this is the greatest marketing & communication conflict ever!!!
  • 6 1
 @bikegreece: Whoa there mate you sound like a conspiracy nut! I think you meant to say that Putin is a really bad guy and that it's totally and utterly his fault and his fault ONLY, and that you cannot wait for our glorious leaders to liberate us from his tyrannical ways. I imagine doing that will require more surveillance and monitoring, possibly encroach on our privacy and surely be used only for the creation of a utopia.
  • 3 0
 @Biologybossman: frankly speaking I miss my days during the cold war..., where things were pretty much straight forward!

this discussion had an unpredictable rebound Ohlins
  • 6 1
 @Biologybossman: there's different levels of bad. Yes, the West has behaved badly in the (not so distant) past. However, my country has never incarcerated whole families for calling a war a war, nor have members of the political opposition been poisoned. We should never be blind for our own mistakes, but don't make the mistake of thinking everything is equal either. Hold ourselves accountable for our own mistakes? Yes. Ignoring major wrongdoings because nobody is perfect? No. And yes, I believe my society gets closer to a good one than the Russian one. And yes, that is mostly to blame on leadership. We've had horrible leadership as well, but not on the level of Putin.
  • 1 0
 @IanJF: It's around 60% here. you pay 1000 for the part, plus 600 in tax.
  • 4 1
 @Mac1987: I mean there are theories that the US government was involved in Martin Luther Kings assassination, so essentially political opposition, but that of course has not been proven. I of course agree and I didn't say we should ignore it, although we have ignored the crisis in Yemen and the concentration camps in China rather conveniently (almost as if we only get involved when there's something to gain).
You are right, peaceful democratic values should be upheld universally and there should be consequences when these are broken, I just think that our application of 'justice' is simply targeted at when we benefit and not because of unbiased altruism.
  • 2 0
 @Biologybossman: there's probably a grain of truth in there, especially in regards to the US government. But even the US government sometimes does the right thing, sometimes even for the right reasons (and sometimes for the wrong reasons).
Agreed on not turning a blind eye on wrongdoings that might have negative consequences if acted against. If we want to remain 'the world's policeman', we must hold ourselves to a higher standard.
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: Yeah definitely, although I'm sure that Putin even sometimes does the right thing.

And yeah I definitely agree with you. I think the subject of which country is held, as you say, 'the world's policeman' is really interesting. Personally I think we might see this change over the next >15 years as Asia and the East continue their economic rise and wealth becomes more concentrated over there vs the west.
  • 2 1
 @Mac1987: so I guess the Netherlands just apologized to Indonesia for its war crimes there for no reason? While not condoning Russia’s invasion, it has more merit than many a Western military joy ride (Iraq, anyone)
  • 2 1
 @VelkePivo: like I said, we shouldn't be blind for our own mistakes. We misbehaved horribly in the past, apologized for it and haven't don't anything like that again. How is this a reason for not trying to stop Russia doing something similarly today?
  • 4 0
 @Mac1987: I think it's not that it shouldn't be condemned (as should earlier Western interference in Ukraine) so much as the selective moral outrage that, frankly, seems a bit of mindless herd mentality. We cozy up to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, yet those are far more repressive regimes and I don't see any howls of protest from the press or Pinkbike commenters. The military hypocrisy has been mentioned and acknowledged above, so I won't mention that. BTW, are you bothered by Germany making support for the Russian side of the war illegal? Seems rather a bit like Russia making calling a war a war illegal. Overall, on the world stage Russia seems a midling violator of human rights and yet you'd think Hitler himself had resurfaced by the hysterical reaction from the West. That makes me deeply suspicious of the real motives.
  • 1 0
 @waldo-jpg: The people least affected are generally the problem around the world.
  • 9 3
 I bought two of these this year one for my Stumpy EVO and one for the Turbo Levo. The shock is fantastic and I'm very impressed, small bump sensitivity is outstanding, night and day compared to the RX tuned Fox. It takes big hits well and still feels poppy and supportive. My ankle got Injured when I was T-boned on my bike by a distracted driver. If I hit jumps on the stock levo my ankle hurt after a few, switched the shock and the problem was gone. The stock shock was over dampened in the high-speed compression. With the ohlins I don't ping my rims with the stock shock I would despite cushcore and higher pressure. No I'm not paid lol I'm just really happy with the shock.
  • 1 0
 All good with the stock tune on the stumpy evo? TTX 1 or 2 with the Evo?
  • 1 0
 @sb666: TTX Air 2 I installed it after I added the largest spacer in the endcap, (you still have the option to add two bands to the shaft to reduce volume) I'm 175lbs added one click of rebound damping to the shipping default and I was golden. The adjustments it has, seem to be very well suited for the bike.
  • 1 0
 @Robs-Primal-Life:
Rad, we are the same weight! Might need to give it a shot. Though I really do think the Float X is a good shock as well
  • 2 0
 @sb666: TTX1 is not compatible with the 21 EVO unless it's an s-works because of the triangular-shaped end eye on the air can. I found that out the hard way and I am trying to sell the shock now. OHLINS removed the TTX1 from the PSG about the same time that I bought the TTX1. I have a TTX2 on order for my Stumpy EVO and I am excited about that.
  • 6 0
 That linear vs digressive diagram is misleading. Having more damping force at slow shaft speeds does not automatically mean less damping force at high shaft speeds. A better diagram would have both curves ending at the same force.
  • 1 0
 But that's just like it is in practice, RS forks have ton of LS and little HS.
  • 1 0
 I think he was just speculating and the graph was to give a concept of what a digressive curve looks like. They don't just publish the damping diagrams for us to compare between, which might make it simpler to analyze these things.
  • 1 0
 @mdinger: but the "concept" of digressive curves is the steep beginning and trend towards flattening at the end. That diagram also implied that digressive also means less maximum damping force, which is not part of the concept and not necessarily true.
  • 1 0
 @lkubica: you're not wrong, but the diagram wasn't labeled "one example of a specific digressive tune"
  • 6 0
 "because there is no preload force to overcome before the shock can start moving"

Pretty sure this in intentional on RockShox's part. They keep moving transfer ports and/or piston heights to maximize physical topout height by minimizing pneumatic topout. I think it's stupid, trying to eke out a couple more mm of indicated travel, while adding harshness off the top because the negative chamber pressure is so low at topout.

To those weirdos who obsessed over that last 2mm of travel, just go back to an old fork with a coil negative, max out the pressure, and marvel at your extra mm's over that lightweight rider with normal pressures and a plush fork, just getting _robbed_ by the coil neg "holding the fork down".
  • 1 0
 I had mine tuned and they fitted a huge custom negative spacer instead of the counter measure spring and combined it with a megneg. As a result the damper wont extend fully and still has the raised equalizing point of the megneg, definitely the best airshock i have owned over the last 20 years. As steve from vorsprung said, the counter measure does nothing on airshocks.
  • 2 2
 Rockshox doesn’t make products for performance. They make products to please the arm chair engineers who know nothing about bikes
  • 6 1
 "it absorbs some energy during compression and turns it into heat"

Isn't that a two-way street? It also "gives up" some energy during expansion and gets cooler... Example: a propane tank getting frosty as it empties and the pressure goes down.
  • 4 0
 Don’t forget the entropy
  • 1 3
 @schlockinz: Entropy takes heat energy out of the system.
  • 3 2
 Yes and that cycle reduces rebound forces compared to a coil of similar average rate. Unless you've gone nuts with volume spacers. In which case you need more high speed rebound to control that!
  • 6 1
 how come everyone outside of the MTB industry tells you that twin tube dampers cannot be run in any orientation except upright? but the mtb industry say its fine? its pretty well documented by companies like penske, summit racing etc.
  • 5 0
 What is the justification for this ? The system is supposed to be properly bled and air free so once your circuit is only running with oil the orientation shouldn't matter. I fail to see the logic so really curious there.
  • 11 1
 The twin tube emulsion design for cheap, bulk OEM car dampers are quite a bit different than pressurized TTX.
  • 7 3
 Because MTB twin tube dampers aren't open bath emulsion type. Well not on purpose anyway. Plenty of companies are shipping them with the dampers half full of air!
  • 1 0
 www.penskeshocks.com/blog/monotube-vs.-twin-tube-shocks-which-is-best-for-performance this is the article that made me curious, for anyone wanting to see, theres a link in there to advantages/disadvantages of mono tubes also, was just an interesting read i thought.
  • 7 3
 But you know that LNL tune in RS means Linear, right? Razz
Ok, it's RS, so even linear tune is digressive because the LS rebound circuit. Btw, RS linear tune simply wrecked ReStackor software last time I tried to compare it with standard tunes, because the shims are so f*n stiff and piston has so little flow ...
  • 1 0
 Have you tried running that tune in the real world yet? I’m considering re tuning my ultimate to that stack and see how it feels
  • 1 0
 @craigyboy: No, I got straight to NSR racing and it works much better. But what's important is how progressive is your frame. I think that digressive rs tune might work ok on a more progressive frame. I tried to run rs coil on meta am 20 and it was a disaster. The problem is that rs has kind of builtin platform on rebound. With NSR piston and shim stack it works so much better. But it really i think NSR makes your rs very similar to Marzocchi bomber CR, so why not just buy one. Or better yet any twin tube shock.
  • 1 0
 I was gonna try it on my megatower, I’ve actually looked at NSR and thought about trying them too, they seem to know there stuff @lkubica:
  • 3 0
 Well, change the check valve as well and it will be linear unless you close the clicker way to much. Source: I dynoed the tunes.
  • 2 0
 @Helmchentuned: you mean remove the check valve. Because shimstack with no bleed is still digressive ... This is what NSR does, remove the LSR stack which doubles as a check valve. There is one sideffect though, LSC adjuster basically stops working, so you need to use oil with viscosity to your liking (platform switch works ok). But, on the parking lot it looks like LSC is too low and rebound too fast, but when you actually ride it, it's great.
  • 2 0
 @lkubica: No, I mean changing the valve to the linear setting without the preload according to original RS specs with factory piston and everything. The damper shows linear damping, for real, on a dyno, tested, not calculated.

You don´t need no tunig piston or anything. The factory piston is sufficient.

I 100% do not recommend changing the oil spec to a heavier weight oil. Thats bro science straight from 70s harley port / orifice / emulsion suspenion.
  • 2 0
 @Helmchentuned: what about this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0QOQvYAbe0
clearly "linear" or not this rebound cisrciut has no bleed. Could you share your dyno plots?
Changing viscosity has everything to do with orifice damping which is present on the LSC circuit and also on LSR when you get rid of this LSR stack (and introduce bleed to LSR, just like NSR kit does).
  • 2 0
 I have the TTX2 on my Spur and that has transformed the bike. From being underdamped and sketchy to controlled and an absolute weapon. The 120 rear travel might even outperform the 130 Pike with a HC97 damper. I'm toying with the idea of a 36 or a Lyrik in the front for trail duty because the back is so good now. I love my TTX2.
  • 3 0
 Similar experience here...I found my stock Spur was underdamped and skittish on steep rocky stuff and jumps. I swapped in a Helm Mkii 130 and a DB Air Inline and it already feels much more controlled and damped. Did you end up adding a volume spacer in the rear? Cane Creek recommended going full linear no spacers since the bike is already 30% progressive, but I might give it a try.
  • 2 0
 Even a Deluxe Ultimate was a massive improvement over the SID.
  • 1 0
 @fentoncrackshell: nice to hear this. I have been thinking about doing the same, the Helm MK2 and InLine. The only way I would put volume spacers in the rear though, is if I was already running a bit if HSC and bottoming harshly still.
  • 3 0
 I'm holding out of an EXT or Formula air shock. But like some of have said, tons of good shocks out there, but they won't be as good as they can be without a proper tune on them to match your bike and riding style.
  • 2 0
 EXT are making an air shock, but their coil Storia is so light and works so well - and the air one won't be cheaper - so I struggle to see the point.
  • 2 0
 I run EXT Storia V3 Loc and EXT ERA V2 on Stanton and I would readily claim that there are no bad setting with the EXT Storia . They are all good and some are very good or great . Of course when properly sized for the frame and the rider weight..The bike feels literally glued
  • 2 0
 I found a new TTX Air with 40% (The shop was closing down).
It feels like I got away with murder....

Had to build a new bil last summer as my Fuji Auric LT snapped and they couldn't get me a new frame.

I scraped together a bike from a unused Marin Alpine Trail XR frame. Bought a Rockshox Suoerdeluxe from a Specialized Enduro and cut the travelspacer. It worked ok, but no compression knob, ran harsh, only 6 clicks of rebound of which I didn't feel nothing.

Threw the TTX on.
It so smooth even with the wrong settings.
Landing from drops, soft and comfortable.
Rolling over rocks and roots. Just tracks every thing.
I knew it would be good, but not this good.
Just rode around with a smile laughing.

Now I need a new fork to match the rear :/
  • 2 0
 Grabbed the TTX Air 2 a month ago to replace the DPX2 on my 5010, what an improvement. Basically zero stiction unlike the DPX2. Didn't feel as poppy as the FOX off the bat, then I put in the biggest volume spacer and 2 more band spacers and it's pretty much perfect now. Poppy like the DPX2 was, but much better traction through the rough stuff. About 5mm from using full travel on the biggest drops and landings that I ride, yet it's never feels harsh like the DPX2 did at times. Unfortunately my 2019 5010 didn't have a base tune from Ohlins on their website so I had to set it up blindly, but I have it where I want it now and it's so much better than the DPX2. My only real complaint is the lack of tool free adjustment on the LSC and Rebound. Then again, it keeps me from fiddling with it once it's setup. Oh and the price, that was a bit tough to swallow but IMO it was worth it.
  • 3 0
 “The better of a rider is, the less rebound you need.” Then later “the shock is pretty hard to ride with the rebound fully open”
  • 1 4
 Not to mention, there are a number of pro riders who basically go opposite this sentiment: run the suspension stiff with loads of rebound damping to improve control.
  • 3 0
 @KJP1230: what pros are doing that? The specialized gravity team is the only team using excessive damping for control, and they use high compression not rebound.
  • 2 0
 @KJP1230: This was more aimed towards poking fun at the reviewer. While I don't 100% agree that the better you are the less rebound damping you need is true for all elements, I do think there is a major benefit to being able to adapt and control a fast moving rear end allowing the suspension to fill holes and smooth out the trail at higher speeds while not get bucked off a jump or deep compression. I disagree that most pros run slow rebound, at least in the racing world. Watch the rear ends of the bikes at Lourdes, they are moving incredibly fast on rebound, it's needed on a track like that, freeriders not so much as their needs are to not get bucked after extreme bottom outs at high pressures and spring rates both going off the lip and landing.
  • 1 2
 @KJP1230: I think they meant relatively less rebound. Sure some really fast guys run crazy spring rates and then need a ton of rebound damping, but the Ohlins guy is saying that a "less skilled" rider would need even more damping.

I think he's dead wrong, though. For a given spring rate, precise rebound damping tuning is very personal-preference, ride-style orientated, and bike dependent to an extent.
  • 5 0
 @justinfoil: I just took it that the faster you go, the quicker the shock needs to rebound. Difficult to argue with that, isn't it?
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: he didn't say faster, he said "better rider", which implies that even at slow speeds "worse" riders can't ride a quick rebound tune
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: It’s the truth! Science strikes again
  • 1 0
 @justinfoil: Not really mate.
  • 1 0
 I've been running the TTX2 air and RXF36 M2 on my 22 Bronson since August last year, really impressed with the shock, had no issues at all, only thing that bothers me is servicing is not as easy as an X2 for example, but non the less performance wise it's easily as good, if not better than the last X2 I was running, and doesn't have the issues that the X2 seems to be plagued with either. The damping on the RXF36 is heavy so i had a lighter damper tune put on it and it's now probably the best performing fork i've used also, especially easy to set up with the air filled ramp chamber rather than tokens, adjustments take 30 seconds. Reviews are mixed with Ohlins, but if you're willing to spend the time and money on tunes, they work exceptionally well.
  • 2 1
 If anybody wants me to re valve their 2021+ float X2 performance let me know. The stock rebound tune for the Enduro at least is way too closed/slow over damped.
Bleeding by hand definitely gives a more thorough bleed compared to whatever system Fox uses at the factory too.
  • 3 3
 I just started running one of these on my '21 Stumpjumper (130mm) and it's absolutely transformed the bike. Very stable through the chatter and bottomless feeling on the drops. So much so that it has me questioning my Enduro (170mm) setup which has the latest X2 on it.
  • 2 4
 I don’t think it would help your Enduro with an X2. You won’t get the same transformation on a longer travel bike as compared to a short travel bike without a piggy back shock. Its the extra volume that is helping your stumpy.
  • 7 0
 Sounds like you need some tunning help on that x2 Wink
  • 1 0
 Is your stumpjumper the Carbon one? No special tune required due to the flex chain stays? Cheers
  • 2 0
 @CristianoSebastiao: Yep, the carbon s-works, so it came with the 'special' digressive tuned fox shock. I just couldn't get it to work. I was either having harsh bottom outs or zero small bump sensitivity.

I built the stumpy with a 36 fork (I'm 215lbs and pretty aggressive), and now with ohlins shock, I would say the frame keeps up with the fork (if that makes sense). Its a weapon!
  • 1 0
 @thechunderdownunder: I was half joking, my enduro + x2 feels pretty damn good, it just made me wonder if it could be even better Smile
  • 1 0
 interesting. I actually heard the same re: stumpy from someone else.
  • 2 0
 @Nerra: honesty I had a 21 Stumpjumper and thought it was amazing. I did have to put a larger volume spacer in the rear shock, but the geo made that bike a slayer. I also ran a 36.
  • 2 0
 @thechunderdownunder: that's where I'm at. A friend at a shop recommended an Ohlins or Float X, but it has me thinking I may just be trying a bit too hard to change what the bike is.
  • 1 0
 @dmondave: my back seems to like a little more travel personally. At least for the trails I like. The stumpy EVO was almost an enduro killer for me and my trails.
  • 2 2
 there really is not much choice with air shocks. I love Rockshox but feel there will be a new shock out soon. I just can't warm to fox....Ohlins looks a good option but the price really puts me off and would like to try before i buy...DVO maybe...
  • 2 12
flag isaac22 (Mar 29, 2022 at 10:45) (Below Threshold)
 please no dvo
  • 4 0
 @isaac22: care to elaborate ? DVO is a premium version of Suntour and considering top Suntour products are at least as decent as top Fox/RS products I don't see a valid reason not to try DVO products. I had a brand new Jade in hands and out of the box breakaway force was way better than the equivalent RS or Fox so I'd get one if I needed one.
  • 1 0
 The superdeluxe with megneg is rock solid airspring wise, the hydraulics are said to be not the best but i get along with mine very well. They are desd cheap in some euro onlineshops too.
  • 2 0
 I'm one ride in on my Topaz and absolutely in love with how it settled my bike down.
  • 4 0
 @flattoflat: good stuff...i am keen to try the new shock they had at one of the bike shows. The customer service is mint at DVO...never known anything like it from other brands
  • 2 0
 I was going to try the DVO Topaz but it's seemingly never in stock, for my size anyways so I went with the Ohlins instead. I already have a DVO Diamond fork which I love. DVO's support is fantastic plus everything is easy to service on your own. I'd highly recommend them if you're looking for something new and want to stray away from FOX/RS.
  • 5 0
 @isaac22 17 years old with a thumbnail pic of a hardtail...please guide me in what suspension setup would work best.
  • 1 0
 @Whataboutism: xcr 30 with a dnm shock for the most bump-absorbing chatter eliminating bike park worthy setup
  • 1 0
 @isaac22: swing and a miss. strike 2
  • 1 0
 @Whataboutism: how about a judy
  • 1 0
 @Whataboutism: dvo diamond? (best fork)
  • 2 0
 @isaac22: I'm more of a Dvo Onyx SC D1 kinda fella but your on base with a bloop single.
  • 1 0
 @Whataboutism: home run green or a double blue
  • 3 0
 I would like a comparison to the Cane Creek, since its an air twin tube as well.
  • 2 0
 Cane Creek uses the Ohlins license to make the twin tube. That was what got me looking at Ohlins I had a CC DB air and really liked it.
  • 4 8
flag Julian2 (Mar 29, 2022 at 9:18) (Below Threshold)
 @Robs-Primal-Life: Cane creek DB is junk I've owned two and know many people who have destroyed them. Along with the recent fox shocks they seem to be a little bit cheaper. With cracking and bending of the internals. Avalanche coils FTW
  • 5 0
 My CC Kitsuma Air is the best shock I've ever used. Coming off a Monarch that was so underdamped I couldn't ride and an X2 that exploded and lost oil inside 3 months. The best part is the tool-free adjustment and it has a lockout and that has been really nice.
  • 2 0
 @Julian2: avalanche is where its at
  • 2 0
 @JudyYellow: Yes, I like Cane Creek's lockout the best, since it also restricts low speed rebound. I've loved the CCDBairs I've owned, and while I did repeatedly nuke one, it was on the Specialized bolt-on-yoke design that also reliably nuked a RS Monarch too.

Techincally, Ohlins and Cane Creek work differently, even tho they are both twin tube. The Ohlins is one-way, with traditional rebound via shim stack on the push rod, while CC is true double barrel with both rebound and compression metered external of the shaft body.
  • 1 0
 @Julian2: I know some people had issues, mine was flawless for the 3 years I owned it.
  • 2 0
 So is the DPX2 and Float X2. And which Cane Creek, piggyback or IL? They're both air over twin tube.
  • 2 2
 I have an stx22 on my Enduro bought second hand for cheap. After a service it's been faultless and has always impressed me with its damping control and resistance to bottoming out. The stock Monarch Plus was more harsh and eventually broke internally despite looking brand new. It was irreparable thanks to SRAMs no spares policy.
  • 12 4
 unfortunately the damage to the Monarch was the frame's fault, not the shock. any yoke-driven bike, especially Specialized, is a known shock shaft destroyer.
  • 1 4
 @knarrr: But Orbea says their similar side-arm frame design limits the side-loading on the shock. So, who is right?
  • 5 1
 @justinfoil: limited side-loading is still side-loading.
  • 2 2
 @knarrr: yes we all know that, we read the internet just like you. The Ohlins shock shaft is stainless steel, won't be cracking under a bit of side loading like the flimsy RS products
  • 1 1
 @headshot: tell that to the pile of DPX2 steel shafts that wore thru their chrome coating on those bikes
  • 1 1
 @knarrr: I'll leave the conversations with inanimate objects up to you.
  • 1 1
 Just been advised that SRAM are finally making shock shafts available for Monarch Plus shocks and my suspension expert is getting a few. May be time for some back to back shock testing soon.
  • 2 0
 I'd love to see a comparison article with lots of modern shocks and forks and I'd be curious to know what your favourites are @seb-stott
  • 2 2
 You clearly don't understand pink bikes business model... Everything is good and nothing is bad because ad moneyyy
  • 1 3
 When seb Scott was with bikeradar he did a few of these with tires and forks. After those, he’s the only guy I trust with suspension reviews, especially after mike levy said the zeb is better than the 38 only because it’s easier to set up
  • 4 4
 "This is because an air spring acts a bit like a damper - it absorbs some energy during compression and turns it into heat - so less hydraulic damping is required."

^^^ This I found surprising. Is this because of friction in the air seals?

Any chance @VorsprungSuspension could peer review?
  • 4 22
flag mollow (Mar 29, 2022 at 9:52) (Below Threshold)
 Wtf are you on about?
  • 6 27
flag mollow (Mar 29, 2022 at 9:54) (Below Threshold)
 Just read the fucking article and leave Steve alone as you clearly wouldn't understand shit anyways
  • 4 0
 @mollow: I interpret the above statement as meaning that the spring itself (rather than the damper) is dissipating energy. I thought springs stored energy and return it to you on rebound, which is why I am confused.
  • 4 0
 @half-man-half-scab: a bit more info on the air spring as damper statement would be nice, seems like a valid question to have
  • 12 1
 Not seal friction, thermodynamics. Compressing a volume of air into a smaller space pushes the molecules closer together and excites their movement generating heat. Essentially the energy used to compress the shock is turned to heat.
  • 1 0
 @gtrguy: steel coils generate a lot of heat from compressing too right? they just cool off quickly being outside and all but I’m no thermo expert. that said I feel like a lot of suspension thermo/fluid explanations are just not something you can discern on the trail.
  • 4 0
 They mentioned this in another thread recently:

www.pinkbike.com/news/hlins-rfx36-m2-smashpot-coil-conversion-kit-now-available.html#cid3220694

Basically exactly what the above quote said with a few more details.
  • 2 0
 @Blackhat: Awesome, thanks for that!
  • 2 0
 @chummyweim: Not sure if it would be the same in a steel coil- it's deforming which is not the same thing as air becoming more dense. It would generate some heat but I have no idea how that would compare. I agree this isn't stuff you feel, I was just pointing out to half-man-half-scab that the heat is not due to friction of the seals.
  • 2 0
 @gtrguy: But that's not the whole story. Consider that heat is given back upon expansion as the molecules move further apart...

As Vorsprung mentioned previously, it's the polytropic behavior of the entire air spring system that matters: that the heat enters and leaves the system through different paths, thus at different rates.
  • 5 2
 Air springs have hysteresis where they are firmer on compression (due to air heating) and softer on rebound (due to air cooling). This means you have a difference in compression vs rebound spring-rates on an air fork or shock.

This means an air shock can run less rebound damping to stay controlled compared to a similar coil. Unless you have gone mental with volume spacers........
  • 5 0
 @justinfoil: Holy f*ck guys, my only point was IT'S NOT SEAL FRICTION.
  • 1 0
 @Dougal-SC: That's good info, thanks. I take from the Ohlins comments in this article that they run different stacks depending on spring type. So, in the case of putting a Smashpot in an air fork, would these effects be substantial enough to justify adding shims to both valves? Or are these effects minute enough that closing the low speed adjusters could compensate?
  • 26 0
 @half-man-half-scab: When the air in the shock is compressed, it heats up, and that heat is then conducted away partly by the air sleeve (the degree to which it does that is dependent on how much time it has available to conduct the heat away), which reduces the pressure below the adiabatic ceiling (the maximum possible pressure it could have at that moment in time). When the shock then extends again, it's actually pumped some of its stored energy away as heat (same as a damper does) and the spring force during extension is lower than at the equivalent position during compression (this sounds like a lower spring rate, but in some cases it's actually a HIGHER spring rate, because we're seeing a greater change in spring force per unit distance). Over time (eg over the course of a descent), the net heat loss of the spring is actually insignificant (otherwise the pressure would slowly drop further and further and the shock would get softer and softer), because it does regain that thermal energy once it fully extends again, but the aluminium parts of the shock act as a thermal capacitor which effectively introduces a limited form of low to mid speed damping. I say limited in that there is a hard limit on the amount of force it can generate, unlike a hydraulic damper, and no direct control over it - and it's position-sensitive as well as speed sensitive, even for the damping element of the air spring. For that reason, coil sprung suspension does typically require more damping than air sprung suspension.

This is one of the things we've grappled with for the past 10 years, and honestly debated whether or not to even discuss publicly, simply because it is so thoroughly confusing for people who don't have their head in this all day every day. Makes it exceptionally difficult to display accurate air spring curves too, because they're only really accurate at one velocity/displacement profile, but the most relevant and consistent spring curve to consider in my opinion is actually the most basic isothermal curve.
  • 10 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: Your comments and videos have taught me more about suspension than the rest of the bike industry combined. Thank you so much for your time in explaining this stuff.

Do you have plans to tune charger 2/2.1 dampers like you do for Fit 4 anytime soon? Would be very interested if you did.
  • 2 3
 When air compresses it creates heat effectively increasing your spring rate and then it cools down again when it expands like when you put your thumb over the end of a pump or how a co2 can freezes. Tgis is why an air spring will never match a coil no matter how good design the seals.
  • 4 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: thanks for that! If only we had a wiki of all your quotes
  • 1 4
 @gtrguy: Holy f*ck guy, I didn't say you were wrong, I just added to what you said. Completed it.
  • 2 3
 @thenotoriousmic: hotter when compressed, cooler when expanded. Ok, now how does that explain why coils are better? It's always compressing and expanding the same amount in total, so what does the temperature at either end have anything to do with anything?

(I know why, and Vorsprung answered it technically correct, the best kind of correct, so we all can know now. Just wondering if you have more than word soup.)
  • 2 1
 I would love for Pinbike to do a blindfolded test where the rider didn’t know if it was a coil or air shock and see if he could correctly guess the answer. I bet it’s impossible to tell given how good both air and coil shocks have become.
  • 1 0
 @chummyweim: i ride an air shock now but i would bet against it. How an airshock settels into travel always feels different and there is no way you dont notice the positive/negativechamber equilization.
  • 2 6
flag mollow (Mar 29, 2022 at 22:57) (Below Threshold)
 @chummyweim: I gotta bridge to sell your dumbass to.
  • 7 2
 @mollow: But is the bridge buying?
  • 3 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: I can vouch for not being able to understand this. There is now steam coming out of my ears. Thanks anyway though.
  • 2 2
 @justinfoil: Heat + pressurised air spring = increase in spring rate. Now that wasn’t difficult was it?
  • 1 1
 @thenotoriousmic: and what about the cooling part you mentioned? Like how a CO2 can freezes...
  • 2 1
 @thenotoriousmic: No, it’s not difficult to find the wrong answer. Hint: spring rate and damping are different things.
  • 2 0
 @mollow: you doing okay bud?
  • 2 0
 @justinfoil:

Here's the thing. You said a "jackdaw is a crow."

Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that.

As someone who is a scientist who studies crows, I am telling you, specifically, in science, no one calls jackdaws crows. If you want to be "specific" like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing.

If you're saying "crow family" you're referring to the taxonomic grouping of Corvidae, which includes things from nutcrackers to blue jays to ravens.

So your reasoning for calling a jackdaw a crow is because random people "call the black ones crows?" Let's get grackles and blackbirds in there, then, too.

Also, calling someone a human or an ape? It's not one or the other, that's not how taxonomy works. They're both. A jackdaw is a jackdaw and a member of the crow family. But that's not what you said. You said a jackdaw is a crow, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all members of the crow family crows, which means you'd call blue jays, ravens, and other birds crows, too. Which you said you don't.

It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
  • 3 0
 @justinfoil: I googled it for you bro.

It’s due to a process known as adiabatic cooling, a property of thermodynamics. A gas, initially at high pressure, cools significantly when that pressure is released.
  • 1 1
 @thenotoriousmic: that still doesn't explain anything about why any of that makes a coil "better" than air...
  • 1 1
 @chummyweim: what? Who is a crow? Who got called a jackdaw? Are you a raven? THE Raven? Is there a clock in the wall?
  • 5 0
 @justinfoil: I’ve done some more googling for you bro. Taken from the singletrack forum written by a user called chiefgrooveguru. I thought you’d like this explanation as they use the CO2 analogy also.



So I listened to an interesting podcast over here:
http://www.vitalmtb.com/features/TECH-TALK-Air-Shocks-Versus-Coil-Shocks-Whats-Better,2065
And once they mentioned adiabatic issues, I had to start googling because it’s a while since I did my engineering degree and the field of loudspeakers I work in doesn’t really suffer from adiabatic problems (unlikel in very high output PA compression drivers, where it’s one of the main sources of distortion).
Basically, when you compress a gas it gets hot. You’ll know that if you’ve ever used a bike pump – or in the reverse, used a CO2 cartridge. If the heat can escape immediately then you have an isothermal situation and this heat does not cause a temperature change in the gas which would change the pressure.
In an air spring which is moving quickly there is no time for the heat to escape, so this heat causes an additional pressure change (other than that caused by the volume change). There are some equations to describe this but in short, very high shaft speeds will result in a adiabatic behaviour whilst very low shaft speeds will result in isothermal behaviour.
100% adiabatic behaviour of air increases the spring rate by about 32% according to my quick sums. That is a lot! In reality what’s going to be happening is a mix of adiabatic and isothermal behaviour, which is called polytropic behaviour.
So if you design a “perfect” air spring, whose positive and negative springs create a totally linear spring rate, it will still not feel like a coil, because the coil’s spring rate will be always the same, regardless of shaft speed, whilst the air spring will ramp up by as much as 30% when moving fast.
That’s why, whatever you do with the suspension design, air springs feel more “poppy” and coil springs feel more plush and stuck to the ground.
Posted 4 years ago
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: excellent find. That description is well put and understandable.
  • 2 1
 @thenotoriousmic: yeah, I know. I mentioned polytropic from a prior vorsprung comment, and right in this thread vorsprung mentioned adiabatic and isothermal behavior.

I just wanted you to stop saying useless "air better than coil because heat when compress, cool when expand" without backing it up or completing the explanation, even with just a link (or even reading the surrounding comments, it seems).
  • 2 1
 @justinfoil: I didn’t think I needed to back it up or go into more detail. I just assumed everyone knew that already and it wasn’t something I needed to prove.
  • 2 1
 @thenotoriousmic: You didn’t think you needed to back it up? Or you couldn’t back it up and decided to just say it anyway? Cause if you needed google to answer this it kind of seems like the second one. Which was Justin’s point all along.

Justinfoil is being a bit on the academic/pedantic side here, but it seems clear to me that you started out just repeating things you heard without understanding it but acting like you did.
  • 2 1
 @Blackhat: Yeah you got me. I just decided to make something up and by some amazing coincidence turned out absolutely correct or maybe I did know what I was talking about this whole time. Nice try though.
  • 1 2
 @thenotoriousmic: They didn't say you made it up. Said you were repeating it without understanding it. Nice try, though.
  • 2 1
 @justinfoil: Haha just give up, you’re sound desperate. Once again your attempt to make me look stupid has backfired and left you with egg on your face yet again. Just like last time and the time before that. When are you going to learn? Who knows but I’m excited to find out. I always enjoy our exchanges ether way.
  • 2 2
 @thenotoriousmic: except it’s true. Nobody said or implied you “made it up”. I said you repeated something without understanding it. There’s a huge difference. But you’re so obsessed - some might even say “desperate” - with winning the argument that you have absolutely no problem twisting either of our words into something you can attack.

Justin asks if you really understand what you’re saying and you say “here, I googled it for you.” I say “google isn’t understanding” and you say “oh, so you’re saying I made it up!”
  • 1 0
 @half-man-half-scab: It's 1-2 clicks of rebound change on a fork. Not usually worth a revalve. Rear shocks are quite a different beast to tune.
  • 1 1
 It sounds fiddly. I’ve only ridden the single tube shock and it wasn’t very enjoyable although when rebuilt it did function significantly better than oem, but that’s true for just about every suspension on the market.
  • 3 2
 Sweet shock from an awesome brand pushing racing. But this review basically just made me feel really good about my Super Deluxe with a Meg Neg
  • 1 0
 Same. Really good value.
  • 3 4
 “ Damping consistency is hard to say too much about without testing on a damper dyno, but I didn't notice any harshness or bucking towards the end of long descents as I have with some air shocks.”

This is the one of many ambiguous statements that ruins this test for me. I paid $800 for one of these- haven’t run it yet, and was hoping to get an inside scoop. This is a shock test on a bicycle, not an episode of Tuesday Tune!
  • 12 0
 I'm not sure what more you expect. Damper consistency is really hard to measure objectively without instrumentation of some sort. He said how it feels, but that could be a result of several factors unrelated to the damper: ride fatigue, tire setup, frame choice, etc.

I think what he is saying is that to the best of his ability to feel it out, it remained consistent, but that actual consistency can only be measured by some type of instrumentation. IMO that's a very fair, objective statement compared to just going based on feel, which is subject to a number of factors.
  • 2 1
 @shinook: Maybe it was the "some air shocks" part. Which other shocks felt the same? Which ones feel like relative shit?

Maybe it was the "didn't notice _any_ harshness". None? Zero? Hard to believe, or it's evidence it wasn't pushed hard enough.
  • 2 5
 It's almost like people are getting better at sounding like they know what the fuck they're talking about just for the sake of sounding like they know what they're talking about. It's getting really easy to spot the posers trying soooo hard to fit in!! It's like a whole new sport within a sport!!
  • 6 0
 @KeithShred: or… reviewers are being open and honest about the limitations of their tests and sharing them with you. If they make a soft claim and share their evidence you can evaluate the claim and take it or leave it.

Posers on the other hand make strong claims and either fabricate evidence to justify it or provide no evidence at all. They hide their lack of knowledge behind confidence and statements that you have absolutely no way of disproving. Basically exactly the opposite of what the review did.
  • 1 0
 In addition to my previous message: $780 = €700 at current exchange rates. Add (a high) 20% sales tax = €840. Why the higher European pricing?
  • 1 1
 Good timing. I was wondering about changing shock on my downcountry bike that has digressive rebound, digressive compression to linear compression and rebound. I'll need to re-read this article again later, slowly.
  • 2 5
 Anytime I meet someone who in the first 30 seconds tells me how "progressive" their bike is, I immediately know they suck at riding.
  • 2 0
 So nice they actually publish spring force values on that curve. Unlike Fox...
  • 2 0
 I assume they don't actually mean thousands of Newton-metres...
  • 1 0
 I guess now it makes sense to me why the rebound is slow in the TTX22M coil. Somehow it just works. The rear of my bike is so smooth.
  • 2 0
 best short travel shock I have ridden
  • 1 0
 Good to know. I have a Hei Hei CR right now. It has the SID Luxe, which is rather under-whelming to say the least. I replaced a similar shock on an older Salsa Horsethief with a CC DBAir, and it utterly transformed the bike. Looking to do the same here.
  • 1 0
 @GSPChilliwack: got this set up with a tune for my epic evo and was very pleased
  • 2 0
 @seb-stott - what do you consider to be ‘a very high leverage ratio’?
  • 1 1
 Wow, the headlines to the articles have really improved since Outside took over.
  • 3 6
 Funny I wanted to comment on reliability . Had suck down . Fail. If you can't make a part work that you give to tester . Then it's a fail. Plain and simple . I would be royally pissed if I purchased a brand new and improved part . And it needed servicing?after spending huge $ on this fantastic New and improved product
Word to bike industry . Ignore the sales guy , ignore the designer ,. Let the engineer s make parts that work and function for years .
  • 15 0
 It comes about from trying to make the transfer port as small as possible so that people don't complain about the "notch" near the start of the travel, which can otherwise be noticeable when bouncing around slowly on the bike. In some cases, the backup rings on the main piston can obscure it enough that it can't equalise fast enough, and that's what causes the issues Seb was experiencing. It is a difficult aspect of shock design to get completely right because if the port is consistently big enough (being usually a pressed feature, not a machined one) then you're liable to get that soft spot/notch, or if you run it too close to the line, it's a pain to equalise. One way or another you're likely to end up with customer complaints and there is no straightforward way around it besides trying really hard to get the clearances right. Forks usually don't have the same issue because they mostly run plastic pistons (not backup rings) with clearance to the stanchion, lower pressures, lower pressure differentials, much greater displacements and usually have the equalisation port much closer to topout, all of which make it much simpler to make the port big enough without the rider noticing much in the way of notchiness. However, plenty of forks have in fact had difficulties with that in the past too.
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: would it be better and doable to machine the port then ? Or just go down the intend route and do two chambers (pos/neg) ? It seems to me, that a high negative pressure gets rid of the notch without major drawbacks.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension:
So in your humble opinion, how do you feel Ohlins did with the transfer port in this case?
  • 1 1
 @VorsprungSuspension: so having an air valve at the negative side and positive side doesn't solve this problem of suck down. ? Adjustable positive and negative air spring .
Let's say I purchased this new and improved rear shock . Are you going to fix my problem for free ? as I just invested say 800$ on this shock. Can't ride when the shock is off the bike .
So I buy this shock and can't ride with it until it's fixed and it's going to cost me money . Even if warranty pays for it . Who pays for my down time . ?
This is the opposite of a reliable product.
  • 3 0
 @optimumnotmaximum: machining leaves sharp edges on the port, which can cut the seal over time, which is why they're pressed (nice smooth round corners). Intend's shock design is completely unique, it uses manual equalisation and is not comparable to the more standard format that everyone else uses. A high negative pressure relative to the positive pressure actually increases the noticeability of the notch.
  • 2 0
 @ExMxEr: sounds like they cut it too fine to try to get rid of the notchiness and instead created a bigger issue - I'm not excusing it, just explaining the difficulties in designing/manufacturing what seems like such a simple aspect of the shock.
  • 2 0
 @Sshredder: air valves on the negative chambers of air shocks could solve it, but you'd need a pump capable of about 600psi for the negative side. I'd be willing to bet with the shock Seb had though, you could bounce on the shock slowly a dozen times and have it equalize properly (likewise when depressurising it, slowly force it to full extension a few times) and have the shock completely rideable in the space of 30 seconds. Evidently it was actually able to equalise (just too slowly), or it wouldn't have been able to get air into the negative chamber to cause it to suck down when depressurised in the first place.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: hmm I have a dual air SID rear air shock . Had a dual air Pike . No the negative air should be slightly higher so slightly tug the piston down to initiate compression.
This isn't theory as I own a rear shock that uses separate air valves for positive and negative air .
  • 2 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Steve, have you had any experience with the Intend Hover? What is your take on this shock?
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension:
Thank you!
Like any shock, I will never stop tuning and logging, and tuning and..
Tuesday Tune convinced me twin chambers are the only way to fly. And a CC DB Inline Air. What a massive improvement that shock was to my last bike!
  • 5 0
 @Sshredder: Dual Air did work well and offered more tunability than Solo Air (ie self-equalising), but Rockshox moved away from it because the setup difficulty was causing more issues than it was worth.

On a rear shock, the surface area of the piston on the negative side is about half what it is on the positive side. Most rear shocks have max pressure ratings somewhere around 300psi. In order to balance forces at topout, you need to be able to put in about double the pressure on the negative side than the positive side. On a fork, the piston area difference is only about 10%, so you only need about 10% higher pressure in the negative chamber than the positive.

Curious what shock you're using that has a separate valve for negative air though, you said a SID dual air shock? The one from 20+ years back? I'm not even aware of anyone making such a thing currently. Those things definitely run a lot higher pressure in the negative chamber than the positive (or they have a TON of preload). The Giant NRS used those back in the day specifically so they could run it with zero sag.
  • 5 0
 @Crossmaxx: Haven't had one in my hands, but have taken a look at the design in some depth. Super innovative design, no question there, has some really cool features like highly integrated spring/damper, apparently quite good (though quite progressive) spring curve, low hysteresis (if you care about that - I don't), adjusters control the full amount of the oil flow, one less moving seal than a standard air sprung shock (sort of - it does double duty with the positive chamber also pressurising the IFP for the damper, but unlike most shocks it has no mechanical advantage so you get 1:1 friction from the IFP).

The design has its limitations too - it needs quite high pressures for a given spring rate, pumps huge volumes of oil through the damper circuits (because the damper piston displacement is the same as the air piston displacement) which requires extremely high-displacement/low pressure valves, and without building a separate test unit, you can't dyno the damper separately from the spring. Oil expansion also directly impacts the spring rate in a more significant way than a normal shock. There's a few other design aspects that I think could potentially be problematic but without testing one properly I could not tell for sure.

Overall though, I think it is the most innovative shock we've seen in some time, plus it looks cool as hell. However innovative design alone does not necessarily guarantee performance or reliability.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: thanks for your thoughts. I got my rs shock back from a tuner and he replaced the countermeasure by a huge spacer in the negative chamber, so that the shock can not extend the last mm. There is no breakaway anymore thats what i meant with notch. And in my understanding this has to do with the higher pressure in the negative chamber. But i think the actual "notch" is the point in travel where the equilization happens, so in my case 12mm in (megneg).
  • 2 0
 @Crossmaxx: This is the most interesting topic in the comments, indeed.
  • 1 0
 @VorsprungSuspension: Thanks for weighing in on the Intend Hover! Good to hear all that. It does look like an interesting shock.
  • 1 0
 I’d be more interested in your experience with the X1 on the Izzo.
  • 2 3
 Posted right after the mention of Rheeder's new potential suspension sponsor. Beautiful use of content strategy, Pinkbike. Just beautiful.
  • 3 1
 How? Who is that coincidence benefiting?
  • 1 2
 @justinfoil: It ain't a coincidence guy. That's the point.
  • 1 0
 This is exactly my point! That test was totally biased through ambiguity.
I’m 100% certain there was brand loyalty going on here, and it wasn’t Ohlins.
  • 1 0
 *bil = bike
** Super Deluxe
  • 1 1
 So is the TL;DR of this review, just save a bit of money and buy a Float X2?
  • 1 0
 Edited...
  • 2 1
 Tenneco
  • 1 2
 Remember Marzocchi!
  • 2 0
 @Dougal-SC: Tenneco killed Marzocchi. Remember the history and don't let it repeat itself.
  • 1 0
 Secret tyres?
  • 1 0
 What are those tires...?
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