There aren't many win-wins in mountain-biking, but shorter crank arms could be just that.
Most bikes have crank arms between 170 and 175 mm long, and it's been that way for a long time. Some brands spec 170 mm cranks on their smaller sizes and 175 mm cranks on the larger sizes, and you can even buy 172.5mm cranks aftermarket, suggesting that the ideal length for pedalling ergonomics, efficiency, power and ground clearance must be somewhere in that range. But there's a fair bit of published science on crank length which tells a different story.
Trawling
Google Scholar served up seven published studies looking into the effects of crank length on pedalling performance. Given the bike industry's near-universal spec choices, you might imagine they found that the ideal crank length was somewhere in the region of 170-175 mm, or maybe that longer crank arms might improve pedalling power to some extent, given that mountain bikes need to compromise between efficiency and ground-clearance. They found nothing of the sort.
In the rest of this article, I'll briefly summarise the methods and findings of each study, then at the end, I'll sum up and give my own take. But first, a little theory.
The TheoryA commonly made argument is that longer cranks offer more leverage, meaning more torque can be generated for a given force at the pedal. This is true, but leverage comes at a cost. If you can move your pedal with a certain force and at a certain speed around the circumference of the pedalling circle, a longer crank will generate more torque but at a lower rotational speed (rpm), because the circumference is bigger. Power is just force times speed or torque times rotational speed, so either way, the power is the same (at least in theory).
It's well-documented that riders naturally pedal at a higher rpm when using shorter cranks; so to some extent, the reduced torque is compensated by a higher cadence.
This isn't to say that crank length doesn't matter, but the difference comes in the biomechanics - do human bodies prefer to do a shorter range of motion more frequently (shorter cranks) or a longer range of motion less frequently (longer cranks)? Or more accurately, where does the optimum between those extremes lie? That's a question that needs to be found out through experimentation on real-life people.
I've searched out all the scientific articles I can find on crank length; seven papers in total. They all have slightly different methods and ways of measuring things, but they all come to a similar conclusion: longer cranks are not better.
What the Science saysThis 2001 study by J.C. Martin & W.W. Spirduso is one of the biggest and most comprehensive on crank length. They measured the maximum sprint power output on a static bike with sixteen trained cyclists, each using a wide range of crank lengths (120, 145, 170, 195, and 220 mm).
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the lowest power outputs were recorded with the most extreme (120 mm and 220 mm) crank lengths. The highest power output was recorded with the 145 mm crank, although the difference wasn't large or consistent enough to be considered significant compared to the 170 mm or 195 mm cranks. The difference in power between the "best" (145 mm) and "worst" (220 mm) crank was just 3.9%
As you'd expect, as crank lengths increased, the cadence decreased, from 136 rpm for the 120mm cranks to 110 rpm for the 220mm cranks. In other words, the body adapts by changing cadence to suit the crank length.
Looking at all the data from all sixteen cyclists and all five crank lengths, the authors estimated the optimal crank length for sprinting was 20.5% of leg length or 41% of tibia length. But in either case, the correlation was too weak to draw any firm or precise conclusions. The main takeaway here is that sprint power output varied very little, especially across the middle three sizes (145, 170 and 195 mm) which is a much wider range of crank lengths than typically used.
Here's how the authors put it: "Even though maximum cycling power was significantly affected by crank length, use of the standard 170 mm length cranks should not substantially compromise maximum power in most adults." In other words, within reasonable limits, the ratio of leg length to crank length doesn't matter too much for sprint power.
Is there a disadvantage for kids riding adult-sized cranks?In 2002, Martin and Spirduso built on the above study by looking at it in another way. They tested maximum power again, this time with 17 boys aged 8–11 years. Their maximum sprint power was tested with a standard 170 mm crank and with an "optimal" crank length which, based on their previous study, was calculated to be 20% of their leg length. The "optimal" cranks were therefore shorter than 170 mm.
Although there was a difference in cadence (129 rpm for the shorter cranks and 114 rpm for the 170 mm cranks), they found no significant difference in the boys' power output in either case.
What about aerobic efficiency as opposed to maximum sprint power?This 2002 study by J. McDaniel et al. had nine trained male cyclists pedal at a submaximal (aerobic) power output with 145, 170, and 195 mm crank arms, each at four different cadences (40, 60, 80, 100 rpm). This gave twelve different pedal speeds (crank length x cadence). They did this at 30, 60, and 90% of their Lactate Threshold, while the volumes of oxygen they consumed and CO2 they produced were measured to determine the metabolic cost of cycling at each power output and each crank length.
They found that the metabolic cost of cycling was strongly correlated to the pedal speed (crank length x cadence) but wasn't related strongly to the cadence or crank length per se. In other words, riding with shorter cranks requires a faster cadence (and longer cranks a slower cadence); but with the right cadence, the crank length doesn't significantly affect the metabolic cost of pedalling at a given power output.
Here's how it's put in the paper: "even with our wide range of pedaling rates, pedal speeds, and crank lengths, muscles' ability to convert chemical energy to mechanical work was remarkably stable."
What about for mountain bikers?In 2009, Paul William Macdermid & Andrew M. Edwards tested seven female cross-country athletes with 170, 172.5 and 175 mm crank arms. Their peak power was measured at a constant cadence (50 rpm) and then at maximal aerobic capacity.
No differences were observed in power output, even when cadence was fixed at 50 rpm. However, the time taken to reach peak power in a spint was significantly less with the 170 mm cranks compared to the 175 mm ones.
The authors suggest this could represent an advantage: "The decreased time to peak power with the greater rate of power development in the 170 mm condition suggests a race advantage may be achieved using a shorter crank length than commonly observed. Additionally, there was no impediment to either power output produced at low cadences or indices of endurance performance using the shorter crank length and the advantage of being able to respond quickly to a change in terrain could be of strategic importance to elite athletes."
But do extreme crank lengths lead to excessive strain in specific joints?In 2011, Paul R. Barratt et al. looked into the relative contribution of different leg joints towards pedalling power, with crank lengths of 150, 165, 170, 175, and 190 mm. Although there were differences in the hip and knee joint contributions when comparing the 150 and 190 mm crank arms
and when cadence was fixed at 120 rpm, there were no differences when cadence was allowed to vary to suit the crank length. "Crank length does not affect relative joint-specific power once the effects of pedaling rate and pedal speed are accounted for. Our results thereby substantiate previous findings that crank length per se is not an important determinant of maximum cycling power."
What about with untrained cyclists?In 2016, Ventura Ferrer-Roca et al. measured both the aerobic efficiency and the range of motion at the leg joints in twelve amateur cyclists. Heart rate and gross efficiency (pedalling work done per calorie burned) were measured while pedalling at a fixed aerobic power output. They did this with three crank lengths 5 mm apart.
Again, there were no differences in heart rate or gross efficiency at any of the crank lengths tested. However, longer crank arms measurably increased the range of motion of the hip and knee joints which, the authors say, could be a negative. "the biomechanical changes due to a longer crank did not alter the metabolic cost of pedalling, although they could have long-term adverse effects. Therefore, in case of doubt between two lengths, the shorter one might be recommended."
What about for stand-up pedalling?Finally,
in 2021, Sumin Park et al. looked into standing cycling. Ten participants cycled out the saddle at sub-maximal (aerobic) power while biomechanical parameters, motion data and pedal reaction forces were measured. With longer cranks, more power was absorbed during the upstroke of the pedalling cycle. "Consequently," the authors say, "longer crank lengths require increased propulsion power by the lower limb muscles during standing cycling compared to shorter crank lengths. Therefore, shorter crank lengths are recommended for stand-up bicycles to avoid fatigue."
ConclusionThe main takeaway from the published science is that crank length either doesn't affect pedalling performance, or there's a possible advantage to shorter cranks. Although one paper found a small disadvantage with very extreme crank lengths (120 mm or 220 mm), there is no evidence of a significant difference in maximum power output or efficiency when using crank lengths as far apart as 145 and 195 mm. This is because, as crank length decreases, cyclists pedal at a higher cadence to compensate.
Three of the seven papers put forward possible benefits to shorter cranks, while the rest found no difference. One paper found shorter cranks reduced the time taken to increase power output in a sprint; one recommended shorter crank arms for standing cycling to reduce fatigue; another noted that longer cranks increase the range of motion of the hip and knee joints, which they say "could have long-term adverse effects".
One study estimated that the optimal crank length (for sprinting) is about 20.5% of the cyclist's leg length. Leg length is typically around 45% of height, which would imply an optimum crank length of about 9.2% of total height. That rule of thumb would put the ideal crank for someone of average male height (175cm or 5'9") at around 161 mm, or 150 mm for the average female height. But remember these are very rough numbers and the main takeaway is that, within sensible limits, crank length doesn't matter much in terms of pedalling performance.
As mountain bikers, all we need to know is that running 10 mm shorter cranks won't slow you down when pedalling, but that much more clearance is a huge difference in terms of reducing the risk of those heart-stopping and axle-bending stalls when the pedal catches a rock. Of course, you could also increase the BB height to achieve this, but that has its own list of disadvantages which could fill another article.
There are a couple of practical challenges to going to shorter cranks. Most importantly, the requirement to pedal at a higher cadence will require easier gearing (going from 175 to 165 mm cranks should be paired with swapping a 32t to a 30t chainring to compensate for the reduced leverage and allow for higher cadences). This may result in some ribbing from less educated riders. If the gearing isn't adjusted, the shorter crank arm effectively gives a harder gear in terms of the force required at the pedal to create a given propulsive force at the wheel, potentially leading to more strain on the body when you run out of gears.
Also, shortening crank length by 10 mm should ideally be paired with raising the saddle height by 10 mm so the leg extension with the pedal at the bottom of the circle is the same. For a given dropper post length, this means the saddle will be 10 mm higher when descending, so fitting a longer dropper post may be worth considering too. Finally, from experience, when fitting shorter cranks it may take a few rides to get used to the higher cadence.
Damn things were like shovels when you pedaled a DH bike.
Here's a set of FSA road cranks that were done that way:
i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iIUAAOSwl8NhZbuk/s-l1600.jpg
Clearly Pinkbike is now trying to turn us into QAnon...
I chose not to choose dick length. I chose somethin’ else. (c) Trainspotting
Or maybe they'll start creating big spiraling DH tracks like Nascar and I can only turn left the whole time...?
The real reason for this article and persuading people that shorter cranks are superior is to gain a wider audience of prospective buyers for the Grim Donut when Outside inevitably starts selling it.
Be safe be well,
Incognito Robin
*Puts on sculpted tin-foil sombrero*
My favourite thing is to watch fellow riders’ faces contort and malfunction as they realise that everything else on the drivetrain is SRAM
Big up to oneup chainrings for allowing this drivetrain blasphemy to occur
As a relatively tall person (187cm or 6'3") 165's feel awkwardly short and obnoxious although they provide more ground clearance. 170's feel pretty natural and great on a dirt jumper in particularly, as stated somwhere below. And 175's feel perfect in general, albeit slightly long on highly technical terrain, only for the sake of long dh's where your leg imbalance get's tired, or for uphills with pedal strike. But this is a learned preference.
Thanks for the comment.
I'm 6'3", 190.5cm.
Ran the optimal crank arm length formula in the article (height in cm x .092). Results? Almost exactly 175mm.
Guess I'll stick with the 175mm crank arms I've always run ....
Something is wrong with the "scientific" studies. I don't know what they are missing, but every time I put on shorter cranks I go faster for the same effort. And not just a little faster.
I think what is missing is a subject common to dirt bikers: Powerband. On 175's I had useful power from 70 to about 95 rpm. Because I am now able to use much better pedaling technique, my useful range is now about 50 to 120 or so. One gear, double your speed. Yeah, that's fun.
A month ago I wrote an 8 page article on this subject. I've shown it to 4 people, and they all gave me tinfoil hats. Oh well. They'll never put on a set and actually test it, because that's human nature.
They only fit BSA, but he makes experimenting dirt cheap. I've purchased 153, 140 and 120. I've ridden the first 2, my arthritic wife has the 120's
Your personal experiences may define your reality but they don’t equate to a universal truth. My experiences with short cranks are positive, I don’t expect everyone to have the same. You’re welcome to run long cranks, you’re welcome to talk down to anyone with a different opinion than yours. But you don’t have to.
Descending is still the same CoM when the cranks are level. Arguably, with your legs closer together when descending , would you level out the strain and fatigue to your rear supporting leg?
I’m guessing it’s a universal sizing that the bike brands spec on the bikes. This may well be due to frame sizing and perceived rider heights .
Would be interesting conducting actual back to back references/timings on proper trails and not static bikes @pinkbike:
The art of the sport is very dynamic so, in reality these tests aren’t very relevant.
@pinkbike: you guys and girls need to develop a MTB/trail/downhill specific set of tests.
Also, usually at the end of a long sustained downhill, one quad is on fire more than the other...having moved to shorter cranks and thus less separation seems to have helped that a bit.
But, in saying that, the studies aren’t claiming to find the right crank length for everyone, they’re measuring a subset of the population, the same subset who might benefit from the research.
(I submitted a paper with 3 participants once and a reviewer said that sample wasn’t big enough and we needed at least 4. So we got another participant. I’m not sure what makes 4 much better than 3, but 7 is almost double!)
Technically my first mountain bike came with 170/175 arms. It had been a rental and must have been repaired at some point.
Bikes like the old Giant Reigns were great, NS are pretty dialled on KB and AS these days. (to name a couple).
@CSharp totally agree, the newer steeper STA are the biggest power adder in climbs (especially for us taller guys), 77 should be the absolute minimum these days.
Since we are XC in our parts I'll stay with 175mm cranks as I really hated running 170mm. Oddly 172.5 on my road bikes feels completely normal.
I once borrowed a road bike for a summer that had 225mm arms on it, along with all sorts of weird geometry choices - this guy pioneered long and slack - but that was a wild machine, outside the bounds of standard bike design rules.
Moot point for me though. I have extremely long legs and I'm on a mulleted Kona process. I would kill to get the seat forward a few mm at full height on steep climbs. Going shorter on crank arms for me and needing to raise the seat (and moving it back) are a no-go here. I don't see anyone mentioned that point.
Marketing concluded : " if we convince everyone shorter cranks are better we can sell new cranks to lots of folks, how about we change the pedal eye diameter as well?"
This is gonna be sick. I’ll gladly kiss my calf muscles goodbye for a few more 27.5 options.
"Power is just force times speed or torque times rotational speed, so either way, the power is the same (at least in theory). It's well-documented that riders naturally pedal at a higher rpm when using shorter cranks; so to some extent, the reduced torque is compensated by a higher cadence."
Increased torque improves acceleration from lower speeds, such as when getting up to speed after exiting a sharp corner. Horsepower (torque over time) is most beneficial when you are already up to speed, which in our case, means sprinting.
So the question I think riders need to ask themselves when it comes to choosing a crank length, is whether more torque or more horsepower is most beneficial to your musculature and riding strengths and weaknesses. Also, how sharp are the corners on your local trails? If you have a lot of switchbacks, longer cranks are probably the answer while flow trails will favor shorter cranks.
You'd adjust your chainring size or gear selection, thus same power = same speed at rear wheel and same torque at rear wheel = no changes.
The only benefits I’ve found with long cranks are the lower saddle height if you’re doing anything technical seated and the lower foot position when cornering with the outside pedal down on a bike with a higher BB. So I guess they have their place on older bikes with high BBs and no dropper post. But on modern bikes shorter cranks are usually better.
Torque figures can certainly allude to how the engine will respond and it's nature, but in and of itself, largely meaningless without the RPM component...aka HP and/or Watts...
The thing is, there's a reason we're all on pretty long cranks - back in the days before droppers, if you ran 150 cranks, you had to raise your saddle 25mm to compensate, which is... bad for descending, to say the least. Any advantages you get from being able to run a lower BB height are negated by the saddle being jammed up your butt.
With droppers, different story. I spent a few years trying to talk people into shorter cranks (Canfield makes some nice ones down to 150mm or so) but it was just too weird for people to wrap their brains around. If some big company (ie Trek/Specialized) decided to push it it could take off, maybe.
-Walt
Canfield make a crank set that goes down to 150mm - I'll be getting the 155s!
they are standard amongst e-bikes where there is assistance, but i think they have more use than that.
Slight hassle getting low enough gears as mentioned. I got an old Deore XT crank at 165mm then machined the small bolt circle back to get it in aligment with the middle ring and an Absolute Black 26tooth oval with a 9-42 cassette in the back. Saves a surprising amount of weight, lots of which is unsprung, big increase in ground clearance and happy knees.
Shorter cranks also save weight.
I'm pretty sure the "right" answer is for cranks to be proportional to leg length.
I personally would like to see tailored cranks depending on bike size, ie 165MM cranks on small and medium bikes, and like 175MM cranks on large and xlarge bikes.
A friend of mine surmised that the glycogen would be depleted more quickly when stand up pedalling, buy could never back it up with research.
I understand what you are saying but think your RPM numbers are a bit off making that comparison (130 vs 40-60)
I think us MTB'ers generally do better at slow RPM simply due to the nature of most of our climbing.
I'm always the last one to walk because I can clamber over obstacles so much easier with stump pulling gears and short cranks.
For tech climbing, tall gears don’t help much, but having a deeper lie range can be helpful.
I ride a lot of rock, Hurricane, GJ, Moab, etc … plus my home trails around Tahoe, very few folks can pace me through tech up or down.
… and I ride short cranks and a tiny chainring
Then you just slide your seatpost 1cm higher and it's solved.
You need 180cm cranks? What are you, a giraffe ?
Maybe it's not for you, but not for any of the reasons you listed
Anyone struggling to find 165 sram cranks should take a look at canfield.
canfieldbikes.com/products/canfield-bikes-am-dh-cranks
I'd also add that if I had to choose between 165s or 175s, I'd take the 175s as considerably better. 165s felt REALLY odd to me and negatively effected me on the climbs. I get that the power was still there. It just felt like my femur was too long or something on 165s.
A few other notes: The raised seat height from going to shorter cranks is a real thing and can effect your entire bike set up. Handlebar height and so on. Also unless your sta is 90', it's not a 1:1 relationship between seat height & crank length. More like a 4 seat height : 5 crank length ratio.
On my wife's bike I just defaulted to 165s (she is 5'4") as she is unlikely to provide any meaningful feedback. My 9 year old daughter is on 152 cranks.
There is a serious shortage of quality crank offerings at different lengths. However Rotor makes a killer XC/ light trail use 165mm crank.
Lastly, after we get this CS length to be size specific the bike designers need to work on BB height and use a lower BB on smaller sized bikes so that when a smaller rider is standing on 160-165mm cranks their center of gravity and pedal clearance is similar to a rider on an XL riding 175 cranks. This just makes sense.
Also going to add that higher pedal cadence is VERY helpful. It's simple math. Torque x RPM = Power. You can provide the exact same torque through the pedals at a higher rpm and have much more power to the rear wheel. Figuring this out was a game changer for me.
www.ignitecomponents.com/product-page/mtn-cranks-pre-order
I mean dang,! Here's a guy (me) who rides hard, has been riding for forty years, is an experienced mechanic, rides muni, tandem, SS, Fat, FS, has ridden a huge variety of crank lengths (75-180mm), and I get downvoted. Is that wierd of what?
Sometimes I get this sense that up and down votes are more about some personal antagonism toward the poster than it is the content of a comment.
Pinkbike used to be more than that, at least it seemed that way back in the day.
So sad.
At least I don't care anymore
You should try it!
Sure, good skilz are important, but being able to clear a rock by an additional 1/2” can be the difference between walking and riding.
So yeah, long cranks are probably fine for what you ride
www.mtbproject.com/trail/968509/longhorn-trail
www.mtbproject.com/trail/603762/apex-trail
Skills and trail comprehension are the difference between walking and riding, not crank length.
1. You have to ride at a higher cadence. Let’s say you up you cadence 5 revaluations per minute, on a hour climb that’s 300 more pedal strokes you have to watch out for and have less torque if you need to stop pedaling and restart pedaling. If you need to take a partial pedal stroke I would argue that low end torque is more beneficial.
This also adds up if you are sprinting down hill but to less of a extent, but with much higher consequences. Hitting a crank when climbing is annoying, clipping a crank in a dh race is another thing entirely.
2. You raise your center of gravity, by the length of your crank when seated and by a touch when standing. Seated is normally at slower speeds so less important but more stability when trying to clean a awkward climb isn’t a bad thing and a lower center of gravity going down is typically better.
3. Less stable and possibly harder to get lower when descending. If your feet are closer together you are less stable, your center of gravity is higher. A wider stance also makes it easier to get lower (I would think most people can get tower to the ground doing a split squat vs a regular squat).
4. I would think on a 160 travel bike dynamic ride height and mid stroke support play more of a role in pedal clearance then 5-10mm of crank length. Not to mention the higher your seat the more leverage you have on you suspension so you could theoretically cause more suspension bob especially if you bike has a stacker actual seatube angle.
5. If you need to gear down this could also effect how your bike pedals, this good go ether way but something to think about.
Im not saying everyone should ride longer cranks but that there is more to it than just static pedal clearance. Mountain biking is a very dynamic and there are trade offs to both.
You know when I had 170's on my 150 mm stump jumper I really felt this. I was just not feeling as low and stable. Switched to 175's and it felt completely different, while only adding 1 cm of distance, strange but true.
Why do they basically all run 170-175mm cranks? Jan Ulrixh famously ran 180s, fwiw.
The studies above show not that short cranks give more power, but that they don't give less power.
On a mountain bike you get benefits from shorter cranks in increased ground clearance and less rock strikes. On a road bike that doesn't matter so riders can go with A: What they are used to and B: What their sponsors actually make without any negative effect.
Just like the other studies it looked at fixed cadence riding, time to peak sprint power, and maximum sustained power output. This doesn't seem to be to be a particularly good model of technical trail riding - I for one don't spend much time 'spinning' freely, at least not at the moments when it feels like it really counts. At those moments I need peak instantaneous torque, not power, and I'm unlikely to be putting in full pedal rotations. Using different gearing to enable to to attain the same peak torque at the same leg speed and force on the pedal may not actually be practical if my pedal ends up at the 6 o'clock position instead of 4 o'clock right when I need maximum clearance.
An interesting corollary is studies of pedalling efficiency on the road - multiple studies have shown no significant difference in overall efficiency between flats and clips. Like each of the studies above, it's a convoluted demonstration of the laws of conservation of energy. At the end of the day the determinants of power output are the rider's lactate threshold/FTP/VO2max, not the crank length or type of pedal they are using; energy in = energy out. However, just because different pedals or crank lengths don't magically alter your overall physiological performance, it doesn't mean they don't have advantages in particular situations.
After reading this article I'm still not sure...
What does everyone suggest?
160mm Your cranks + $70 chainring = ~$300
165mm Raceface cranks + $20 chainring = ~$150
Hard to justify double the price for 5mm, and I just want a bombproof steel chainring.
Read the "Factors influencing power" [statistical power, not watts/kg!] section on wikipedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_a_test
The scientists/engineers have measurable mathematical inputs and are testing with pretty small set of variables in the grand scheme of things. The fact that the mechanics are bio doesn't make that much difference in my eyes.
I have been interested in this topic for years, and have ridden from 165mm to 190mm.
165mm gives me knee pain, with i don't have with 180mm (which you can find from Shimano and sram)
For my 165mm cranked Bosh eBike, i bought some 170mm and 175mm to test them out.
It's a great article citing great original research, but I think the takeaways are more for the road/gravel/smooth XC crowd and for people doing pure winch and plummet laps on logging roads. For riding on actual trails, I'll keep my long crank arms and low saddle, thank you.
And less pedal strikes on janky, rocky climbs. (add to that more chainring clearance if you go smaller there)
I get the idea of ratcheting to avoid pedal strikes - looking at you Seb Kemp - but having more clearance either with crank or BB height frees up bandwidth to nail all of the other things you're focusing on...
The answer is more squats and kettle bell swings to get the required power with a slightly shorter lever.
In cases where getting your center of gravity low really matter, we're going to have the seat fully dropped.
I just think the benefits out weigh the costs...for some, there might not be any. Whatever works for you...
We might disagree on this point. But damn, you seem pretty knowledgeable. You should consider maybe doing a Q&A column or something...
I think we agree on LEGOS.
It seems to only notable conclusion is that if you ride long/slack/low bikes then shorter cranks are a plus.
I'm not sure they were able to measure power at the time, but my memory says they came to the same sort of mild conclusions about crank length: there just isn't a huge difference in efficiency between sizes. Their shortest tester also preferred 180mm cranks.
Maybe the best we can say is that some folks want to trade raw watts for other things like feel/comfort/clearance--just like they do with the rest of their bikes.
Wow, and the 290 is high bb. I’ve not had a single pedal strike on 175mm cranks
Or maybe air? at 345mm its not really a low bb for 160 travel bike.
What size rear tire you running? That can make a 5mm difference. And if your air is too low and your shock sits 2-3 mil into its travel, thats another 5mm lower your bb sits.
Worth measuring your bb. Mine is exactly 345mm
Leverage is important for climbing, which is my main concern. I'm not standing and sprinting, but rather grinding up hills in a 30/48 or 50.
I'd lose a bit of the above leverage to reduce PITA pedal strikes. Take 5mm off of crank length to 165mm, and raise BB by 10mm.
Ebikes just need your input and not really Your full torque, as instead providing this for you. This for me, makes the whole difference for shorter cranks.
For myself, I’ve tried shorter cranks a few times over the years and always gravitate back to 180mm. I run 175’s on my mountain bikes now only because I can’t find a good 180mm crank anymore. I’d happily swap back if Shimano made o180mm at the XTR level. For reference, I’m 6’5” and and oddly enough, the height x .092 formula listed above puts me on 180mm cranks.
I really think this is as much of a personal preference as it is related to physiology, trail type, suspension type (mid-stroke support), etc.
I ride much more than she does and I would continually over-rev her in cadence and she would complain I was pedaling too fast. Her shorter legs had to extend and contract faster than she liked due to the crank length. All of her own bikes have 170mm cranks. I found a set of 170mm Tandem Stoker cranks that matched the Deore DX cranks the bike came with, and swapped them in. Problem was solved and I could pedal much closer to my own natural cadence since she was now pedaling in smaller circles. I also offset the clocking of the cranks by setting my cranks to lead by 20 degrees, which reduces the load at the beginning of the Power Stroke, but that's another article.
My take: pick a crank length that feels comfortable to you and doesn't leave you with excessive pedal strikes. Adjust gearing, saddle, etc, accordingly.
Like I said; You are a victim of a focus group. Remain blissful in your ignorance.
Exactly - once a rider's average riding speed gets into the double digits, wind resistance becomes a factor. Especially in the world of curly bars and XC, shorter cranks = higher seat position = more wind resistance. Expand that drag over a 3 hour race on a fast course, the gram counters looking for incremental gains will likely opt for less wind resistance, thus 170/175 crank options.
BUT! Those long crank benefits are all relative. If you're a shorter rider, if your bike came with a stupid low BB, if you naturally pedal at higher rpm, or if you're only ever pedaling on smooth singletrack and firereoads, then shorter cranks might be the bees knees for you. Somebody else in the comments even mentioned being able to find the pedals easier with short cranks when you're doing no foot cans and tailwhips. Tailwhips aren't my cup of tea, but obviously short cranks can be helpful for a wide variety of use cases.
I can ride either but, it's so much harder with flats due to a less efficient foot placement and not being able to pull on the upstroke. Something folk who deny clipless benefits keep falsely claiming you can't do. *rolls eyes*
That said, I need to go and see what size my cranks are! Not that I can find a new set in stock...
Single speeds for all!!
On an unrelated note, how does one format comment text? ;-)
Science can talk all it wants about how the crank lengths affect the pedals in motion, but it’s missing the other 50% of the time that you’re riding without the pedals moving….
ridefar.info/2017/02/crank-length-and-comfort-for-long-distance-cyclists
Also it annoys me when companies make a shorter crank that’s actually the same length but with the whole drilled in a different place.
Would shorter cranks affect your stance negatively when you're pumping and pressing the bike?
Are longer cranks better for getting your CG lower?
This old man, hit the dirt jumps at highlands and rear knee was buggin and I switched stance for the rest of the session: was able to contemplate why me rear knee might hurt more mechanically and decided smaller crank arms might help more evenly distribute the weight.
They should test pump track racing with smaller cranks and observe the outcome. Also test closer gaps in crank length to optimize/tighten those graphed curves. 170, 165, 160, 155
These guys in the test are trained professionals riding the same cranks everyday for multiple years. Let’s see what the average Joe finds out.
And i've tried 165-170-175, 165 is too short and my seat is so high i cant get it out of the way at all, it also made me feel like the bike was too small for me, feet were noticeably closer together and it felt odd, like any movement over upper body was extremed out. 170 was better... but then 175 is golden, strong platform to stand on and just charge hard it also let me get my seat 10mm down more which may sound small but thats the differnce between my Balls touching the seat or not.
Ground clearance is a mute point as id rather the big platform an is more effected by BB height than crank length
A friend of mine reckons its to do with motorbikes, as ive noticed alot who ride them or come from them will prefer shorter cranks.
- Slightly lower the weight.
- Should be slightly stiffer than the same crank with longer arms.
- Slightly increase grip on slippery climbs: faster cadence should result into a more constant power output as there are shorter "dead" gaps in your pedal stroke).
- Allows you to dive into a more aero position: when your cranks are in a vertical position while pedaling, your upper knee comes up less high, so you can ride with your handlebars lower with the same flexibility between your upper leg and torso (mostly interesting for roadies).
- Have less chance on rock strikes or hanging up.
Because of this, I run 170mm cranks on all my bikes.
1) With a shorter crank, I’d rather also lower the BB rather than raise the saddle height and increase my CG when pedaling.
2) Most frames are now designed to best suspension performance with a specific chainring size, Things like chain / chainstay clearance may need to be adjusted too,
3) This means that a frame will need to be redesigned to take best advantage of shorter cranks.
4) Sounds like a great marketing opportunity
Primarily, my comment was meant to address the fact that any change on a modern bike can affect the whole system- so rushing out to make a big change on your current bike can have unexpected trade-offs.
Great video comparing different crank lengths back to back: canfieldbikes.com/blogs/news/does-crank-length-matter-hardtail-party
Until the "conclusion" it downplays the torque needed in highly tech rocky/steep climb situations, nor the inability to "spin" and develop that needed power when bouncing around in the same. Comparing apples to apples, there is a loss in power and you need to use lower gearing to compensate so you can "spin"? Ha! Try that when you are bouncing on a steep climb and lose traction.
But the industry builds for taller male riders j(google "reference man"), and women just have to adapt. E.g. Once I discovered the joys of 26" wheeled bikes that actually *fit* me, I refuse to go back to 700c.
I was lucky enough to find a Sugino 160mm crankset; they make them in all the lengths, but I could only find the shorter lengths on Sugino's website. I can't wait to put it on my bike.
You generate movement through how hard you push the pedals and how fast you spin the cranks.
Depending on what your are trying to do, climb a steep hill, go fast on the flats, you can adjust either or both. So what are the pros and cons of shorter cranks?
The length of the crank affects the torque output of your pedal stroke. (Shorter lever). For the same gear and same power pushing on the pedals, shorter cranks means less torque. This means harder to move the wheel around once. A rider with a lower torque will have to push harder and/or pedal faster, or change up to an easier gear, to keep with someone with more torque on the pedals. So shorter cranks might be less effective, unless you have strong legs. Or you can just shift up to an easier gear and bingo, more torque. So leg strength is less of a factor now in the easier gear. Is there a practical limitation for most riders? No. Most people don’t have strong enough legs to turn the cranks in big hard gears anyway so we use our huge easy gears.
Since shorter cranks travel less distance around the crank in a circle, most people can spin faster with shorter cranks. (Higher cadence). Force = Power (pushing the pedals) x RPM (crank speed = cadence) and it’s generally easier to get more force by increasing cadence, especially on a mountain bike where there is lots of cadence to gain. (Most people spin slowly sub 75rpm). So, even though the reduced torque might be a con in some scenarios (slow, grinding, standing climbs up Slickrock). It can be easily offset using that 50t platter and a slightly faster cadence.
And you get more ground clearance.
There are some mtb scenarios where high torque gives you an advantage, but with modern low gearing at 45t to 50t coupled with a 26t to 30t chainring, higher torque is easy to get by changing gears.
Leg speed ultimately determines output. It always has.
(Mostly stolen from below)
Reference:
www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/torque.htm
On my mountain bikes I've moved to 165.
I don't do long endurance pedaling sessions at a fixed cadence on my mountain bike. There is tons of cranking uphill and coasting downhill. But with shorter cranks I get far fewer pedal strikes, and that more then accounts for anything negative that might come out of a shorter crank.
Good read though...
In the past I've mostly punched my way through chunky lines in the woods. I don't really know how my riding has evolved though...
"you will buy bike with shitty long cranks and pay for them, than you will pay again for shorter better cranks. profit"
But of course there's a point where you want to Not lower your bb by the same amount as you shorten your crank, to be able to clear rocks by keeping your pedals level over them (and not bashing your chainring or bash guard). At that point, you want to minimise the size of your front chainring. I just hope the new gearbox from Shimano solves all this for us, haha
Anyway, for that old stuff, the recommended spindle length usually accompanied the rest of the spec info about the cranks...
Lightest "official" 165mm 1x MTB crank without power meter is Sram X01 Dub. Yes, it's X01 because Sram don't do XX1 3 bolts in 165mm length anymore. Go find it and you'll only see 8 bolts option (for use with Quarq spider) if you specify 165mm length. Sram somehow think XC riders that can afford XX1 but don't use power meter only use 170 or 175. But if they are serious enough that they care about power then 165 is on offer...
X01 will end up around 480g-ish. Still lighter than Shimano XTR which is around 510g-ish.
However, by going 3rd party chain ring, you can certainly drop more weight by using XX1 Dub which is 8 bolt spider interface together with 8 bolt direct-mount chain ring. I don't see many options but ALUGEAR make some. This will end up around 430g. It's a few grams heavier than XX1 with 3 bolts because there are 5 extra bolts securing the chainring. That's it.
Dropping that far didn't have a huge difference in feel and seemed to be all benefit -- a significant reduction in pedals strikes and a lot more flexibility for what I could just pedal through vs. needing to be more careful about pedal positioning.
Went down to 140mm for a season and while they felt OK for seated pedaling, standing pedaling felt slightly "off".
This winter's experiment is riding with longer cranks arms on a stationary bike for indoor training. The idea being that adapting to a faster cadence on longer cranks will translate to it feeling even easier maintain the same cadence outside on shorter cranks.
This article is speaking to me!
Now I just have to figure out how to switch out the SRAM S-2200 Carbon crankset on my 2016 Stumpjumper FSR to 165's (or 170's?) that are good but not too expensive that fit. The more I read about bottom brackets and cranksets the more I am confused.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiOxfbKn6v7AhXzIX0KHU1mCkAQFnoECDIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fopen.library.ubc.ca%2Fmedia%2Fdownload%2Fpdf%2F831%2F1.0077096%2F1&usg=AOvVaw3nepNyEa_2RZvRcYybl6Y9
New short-crank-specific geometries...
The real question is why can’t we have more color choices in our cranks and other parts?! This is supposed to be fun!
Many of the ride reviews and comparisons are compromised, in my opinion, because the rider is expecting a particular result, and the ride feel of a bike is so subjective that it is easy to be prejudiced.
@blinglespeed I told you 165 was better
Sound of internet breaking…
2. Pedaling at a higher rpm is preferred because mountain bikers are progressively getting weaker. Example: Eagle cassettes.
XT8000 vs. XT8000 B-1. Now it's 8100/8120/8130.
So is 170mm dead?
I knew I shouldn't ride my mtb with old, dead and old school 175 cranks! No stravakoms...no smiles....no likes....
Will swap asap! Don't want to lose all my trailfriends
Mr Umgawa?
Been on mullet setup with 165 cranks since 2015 ???
also so gladly read.
Regardless us ebikers have known this for years.