Another New Standard? Here Comes Boost 20x110

Apr 23, 2017 at 3:02
by Vernon Felton  
Sea Otter Day 2
The lowers on DVO's upcoming Onyx fork features revised brake-tab positioning--something that's required to accommodate Boost 20x110 hubs. If that sentence boggles your mind a bit, read on.

We’ve hinted at it a few times during the past month, there’s chatter out there about 20-millimeter through axle hubs and forks getting the Boost-spacing treatment.

Wait—don’t 20-millimeter through axle forks already feature 110-millimeter hub spacing? Yes, they do.

What we’re talking about, however, is hub manufacturers spreading the hub flanges apart (five more millimeters on each side) on their 20x110-millimeter, through axle hubs. Spreading those spoke flanges will, of course, mean that the brake rotor is now five millimeters closer to the non-drive side fork leg and that, in turn, means that the disc brake mounts on the fork lowers need to be repositioned as well.

In short, things appear to be changing. Again.

As of today, only a few companies have come out of the closet on this one. DVO’s new Onyx dual-crown, DH fork, for instance, will feature Boost-compatible lowers. Same goes for Suntour’s latest Rux DH fork. Suntour has also hinted that their latest Durolux, single-crown enduro fork may be offered in both its current Boost 15x110 offering and a 20-millimeter Boost 110 version. Might we wind up seeing the demise of the 15-millimeter through axle and the return (across the board) of the 20-millimeter through axle? Frankly, it’s too early to tell.

Durolux
Suntour's upcoming Durolux 29 is currently configured around a 15-millimeter through axle, though a Suntour representative pointed out that there is excess material on the dropout that could be machined away to make room for a 20-millimeter axle should the need arise.

You might welcome all of this news. You might, however, also feel like tearing out your hair over the idea of yet more changes. If you count yourself among the latter group, things are not as bad as they might seem. Downhill fork manufacturers, for instance, can provide rotor spacers that allow you to use your existing 20-millimeter wheel with their new Boost 20x110 fork (the rotor spacer would just shift the rotor over five millimeters).

Likewise, if Boost 110-spaced, single-crown forks suddenly get the 20-millimeter axle treatment, you might be able to use existing wheels with 15-mm through-axle hubs by simply swapping out the stock end caps for 20-mm end caps and adding a rotor spacer.

In short, at least this particular shifting of standards offers some backwards compatibility. There’s that, thankfully. Still, I wanted to talk to people on the inside who are knee deep in all of this. Why is this all happening? Here’s what Bryson Martin at DVO had to say.

When did you decide to go Boost 20 with your latest dual-crown fork, the Onyx?
Well, we decided when we first launched the project because we knew RockShox was going to go there. Fox is going to go there too. SRAM and Fox are 800-pound gorillas--they can build momentum for something like this. Our company is a small fish in this market. We don’t control where it’s going. It’s a force that’s greater than all of us, man. If we didn’t do it, I’d be screwed because I have to come up with a new casting or I’ll have an OE customer who says, “We want to buy a bunch of your forks, but they have to be Boost.” And then I’ll be checking under the cushions of my couch for eighty grand in change to make new fork castings. I don't know about you, but I don’t have eighty grand under my couch cushions.

But the cool thing is that it’s backwards compatible. If you have a 20-millimeter downhill front wheel, it still fits because it’s already 20 mil by 110...you just don’t have the benefits of the wider hub flange.
DVO Onyx Fork DVO Beryl Fork
Bryson Martin with his upcoming Onyx fork.
So you can run your old wheelset—you just have to space your rotor five millimeters out and we’ll be providing rotor spacers with the fork that let you do that. Eventually, 10 years from now, everyone will be running that….at which point the bike industry will probably come out with yet another axle standard—Boost 200 because, you know, we’ve done the tests and you get 500 times more stiffness.

You and I are joking around here, but you know that is exactly what readers are thinking. I mean, I’m not against 20-millimeter axles at all, but when does this shit stop? And, in all seriousness, what kind of stiffness gains do you actually get by going to Boost 20 and spreading those hub flanges five millimeters on either side?

You know, Vernon, I was talking to Brent Foes the other day about this and you know the last time I folded a front wheel? It was 1992.

That’s exactly my point! Who out there is actually finding a 15-millimeter through- axle too flexy? I’d have been happy if we’d never left 20-millimeter axles on single-crown forks for 15-millimeter ones in the first place, but now that we have, do we really need to change it all up yet again?

Well, I listen to some of my top riders who really push the forks a lot more and they could go with a stiffer set up—they appreciate Boost—but those guys represent the top 2 percent of all riders. But there’s always a cost benefit thing to consider. The industry is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to get this improvement in stiffness for the top 2 percent… Is it worth the cost? I don’t know, but I know the industry is moving that way and if we’re bringing out new product we have to consider it.

So how did you even hear that your competitors are going on with Boost 20x110?

I mean, it’s real predictable. You see stuff pop up on Pinkbike, you see stuff at events like Sea Otter…you know what direction things are going. It’s a natural progression. You see when the momentum starts building. Now the back end of the bike…that’s still up in the air.

Bryson Martin Sr. DVO Suspension

Ha! I was just going to ask you about that. If we are trying to eke out a bit more stiffness in the front end by pushing the hub flanges out a few millimeters—if that is crucial, then when is the bike industry going to decide that a 12-millimeter through axle at the rear isn’t stiff enough? I mean you have braking forces, drivetrain forces, a hell of a lot of body weight biased back there… Is there going to be a point at which the industry suddenlty decides to bump up the rear axle diameter?

Yeah, I’d have to say there probably are a lot more forces in the back of the bike. I mean how about landing a bit sideways on a jump? You have torsional forces, an incrtedible amount of radial forces going on… I mean you could look at it and think that bigger axles would have been a benefit back there.

Well, should we have just gone to 20-millimeter through axles front and rear to begin with?

You know, in my Marzocchi days, in 2001 I came out with the first quick-release 20-millimeter through axle.

Yeah, the QR20.

Exactly. And for us, I was thinking 20 millimeter axles made sense everywhere because, really, the weight difference between 15 and 20? It wasn’t much at all. And there was the benefit of just standardizing axle sizes up front. You still could optimize your axles, do some cool tapering of the axles, to make them lighter. All the hubs are still 20, they’re just putting 15-millimeter end caps on them…

sea otter
An early Marzocchi QR20-equipped fork--back when all through-axles came in 20-milliameter diameters. A simpler time.
So, do you see 20-millimeter through axles being adopted across the board on front suspension?

At this point? No. But it could happen, I suppose. It really could. You could make a casting that accepts either 15 or 20—you’d just drill it differently, but then you are also going to have extra weight. And that’s the thing, there’s a give and take. There are all these caveats. It’s like you’re in a room with all these black doors and you don’t know which door to go through. You go through door number one and you’re trapped and you go through the other door and you have all these girls waiting for you on the other side…It’s tough, right? These decisions are tough.

You know, your hypothetical worlds are a hell of a lot more interesting than mine.

Well, that’s just how I see things. I’m very 3-D.

Did the brake mount position have to change? There wasn’t any wiggle room that would have allowed you to keep the brake mount where it was and keep the fork castings unchanged?

We tried, dude. We spent a lot of time trying to create something with complete backwards compatibility, but that just created too many problems with adaptors or maybe the tabs breaking off, we just want to make sure that it’s as safe as possible and this is the best way to do that.

You know, we need some kind of consortium. Like a group of guys that gets together and talks this standard stuff over. It’s so important because we could do it without hampering or stalling progress. It’d just be a way to say, ‘Hey, let’s move, as an industry, together in the same direction." Everyone would benefit from that.

Hell, yeah. Right now someone is reading this article and thinking to themselves. “Damn it. Damn it. Damn it! When is this going to stop?" I mean people don’t actually want innovation to stop—they want bikes to get better—but they also don’t want to keep buying wheels and forks and frames, and then find out that the latest standard has a shelf life of just three years. That’s what it seems like it’s come to now and people are pissed. And rightfully so.

That’s what’s killing the bike industry right now. I think riders are so confused and worried that they don’t want to take a risk buying something new anymore. We went through so many changes. And now when the next change comes about, that $6,000 bike you just bought that you thought you could resell for maybe $4,500…that bike is suddenly worth $2,600. And that hurts the consumer.


Absolutely. I hear people say it all the time: they’ll buy a new frame or wheelset when things calm down and the standards stop changing every day, but things don’t ever seem to calm down anymore. And absent some kind of gathering where the industry talks about standards, we’re going to keep having bike companies making these half-step innovations that lead to standards that have the lifespan of a fruit fly. I mean Boost 148…I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, but how long will it last? Who knows?

It’s really hard to get a group of men together to talk about this kind of thing. There’s egos and we’re competing against each other—we’re so used to just beating each other up. I’m not saying it’d be easy to pull it off, but I think it’s what the industry needs to do. When everyone is trying to cut each other up, there’s just too much blood loss. It’s not good for the industry and it’s not good for riders.


349 Comments

  • + 320
 I for one welcome this. As a representative of boost lovers, we believe that the previous standard was unsatisfactory in reaching a certain depth inside our rectums. This new standard would however provide ample length.
  • + 12
 See below
  • + 48
 @motion: "GET f*ckED" i believe that is the objective amongst us supporters of greater boost axles
  • + 32
 They won't stop as long as you keep buying. And every 20mm used fork out there just lost its value more.
  • + 4
 @enrico650: And we have no choice but to buy them as bike manufacturers will now fit them as standard..
  • + 178
 I just bought a new 15mm x 100mm fork and a 12mm x 142mm frame. I'm planning on just riding out Boost and possibly Boosty Boosty. I will need a new bike probably around the time of Mega Boost or Boost2daMAX.
  • + 24
 Boost never went far enough to warrant the 1st change. Pivot was right...super boost using good ol dh parts.
  • + 23
 At least this boost shit makes for good jokes. Thanks for the laugh, guys.
  • + 51
 I've been saying this for a while now. The bike industry is a Fat Hog???? that is ready for slaughter. It's high time the pig gets butchered. Product lines get trimmed back and companies get more conservative again. How many types of bikes do we need? Less is more people!
I haven't ridden any new bike in the last 3 years that needed any parts made stiffer. If anything parts are getting too stiff. Screw the 2%ers! I'm sick of paying for there whims!
  • + 25
 I'm still on 9mm QR. I bought my bike for $2600. By the time I sell it, uhh no one will want it.
  • + 12
 @vikb Right there with you. Bought a 12x142 trail bike last year and a 135mm dh bike. Somehow, they are still fast as all hell and fun to ride. But damn it sucks when I notice the 8-22mm difference as I fire through rock gardens!! sarcasm.
  • + 10
 @DickyP1995: Just buy a frame and put your own fork on it. My last 2 bikes have been frame-up builds and neither one uses any new standards. 15 mil front axles and 12x142 rears ends. No regrets.
  • + 76
 Marginal gains at massive cost to the consumer. Dont buy this stuff. Just keep your existing bike for as long as you possibly can. These new things wont improve your riding nearly as much as just riding your current bike.
  • - 7
flag Helm72 (Apr 23, 2017 at 9:27) (Below Threshold)
 If it wasn't for the internet and sights like PB 98% of people wouldn't be complaining about standards changing every other day. No one would know Sh*t until it was time to pony up for a new bike or a broken this or that.
  • + 22
 @vikb: And just when you think they're done,Boosty McBoosterson.
  • + 24
 Pure planned obsolecence by SRAM to prevent competition from smaller brands like Dvo, Boss, Ohlins etc from gaining any marketshare.
  • + 55
 No hate towards DVO here, I can honestly see how they just got along with the inevitable. Having said that... I just browsed "mountain biker fkd hard by the industry" on Pornhub. No results... yet...
  • + 3
 And great news for used bike buyers-Price drop!
  • + 7
 @vikb: Yup, just picked up a Knolly Endorphin a couple months as well as a non boost carbon wheelset. I'll be skipping Boost altogether.
  • + 12
 Am I the only one who is waiting for renewal the Bomber Z1 20 mm axle with 38 to 40 mm upper stanchions and fu@#ing immortal open bath fork? Just asking
  • + 5
 To me this is like 26 forever coming true. I have 4- 20mm bikes in the garage. Building a new 29er and refuse to go Boost as when you look at the actual spoke bracing angles and factor in the clamping security of the current 20mm standard there is almost ZERO benefit to Boost 15 other than a bit of mud clearance with the wider crown. I ordered a 20mm 29er 36 Fox and now this news comes , which is music to my ears. I refuse to ride offroad with a QR fork that doesn't clamp the axle. Been there done that. Long live 20mm!!!
  • + 1
 You meant girth.
  • + 11
 @jclnv: 100% True
  • + 2
 @jclnv: is there any doubt? Big bike companies are like tech giants (see Apple)

www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-numerology-and-the-demise-of-eleven-speed.html
  • + 9
 @southernrockyflow: Indeed. Problem is (for them) I don't think they're dealing with an Apple customer base. I don't think I've seen a time in mountain bike history when people are starting to give a less of a shit about technological advancement than right now.

Another point is that companies like Specialized and Santa Cruz etc really need to think about spending millions of dollars of with SRAM for OEM because ultimately this devaluation of bikes by new standard every couple of years is going to cause many to want to reconsider spending $7000+ on a bike. Why not save a chunk of cash and buy an aluminum bike from a direct brand that has the latest suspension tech and cut your losses with it every year?

Maybe it already is happening with Specialized partnering with Ohlins and using Magura brakes on future bikes. I sure hope that's the reason.
  • + 1
 @jrocksdh: Heal clearance is what stopped things at 148.... It could have gone further without a pivot by the wheel. Offset spacing makes sense but we arent ready for that yet
  • + 3
 @vikb: Me too. I'll see what's out in 5 years or so, but for now it's not boost for me. #12x142ain'tdead!
  • - 1
 @cookerq: you have both offset spacing and assymetric rims to play with. As to the front hub I could not be less arsed really since they are cheap. I also appreciate the fact that boost forks accept two wheel sizes like 26+/275 or 275+/29 It's a whole another story with boost frame where you need to buy rear hub and crankset. That sets you back a lot. I was fkd by standard game when my 26" frame cracked, there were only 275 models available on warranty replacement and I had change fork, headset and wheels which set me back at least 1000$. A friend had a same story with Trek and boost. Had to replace rear wheel and cranks.
  • + 0
 As a representative of 20mm I welcome this, Inhave had both and can feel the difference and that's on a 160mm fork, 200mm forever! 15mm was a Croc of shite all about the industry not the riders, people changed cost a bundle and now it's coming full circle! This is the industry enjoy it....
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: you don't need pornhub to see that, it's on Pinkbike everyday, mtbers get fckd by big dicks in MTB industry!
  • + 2
 @Maverickdh00: 15mm was about bringing thru axles to XCers. I doubt you can feel the difference between 15 and 20 since the one single fork you could test it with is 36 from 2015 which accepts both axle standards. I definitely didn't feel anything weird between 2007 Lyrik, 2011 36 and 2016 Lyrik. 20mm Sektor and Revelation (150/ 32 Stanchions) were a flexy. Even my wives Fox32 140 from 2011 feels stiffer. I had each of these forks for prolongued period of time. And both Rev and Sektor were flexy in a really crappy way. Recently I had a rather flexy 2001 Shiver SC for a brief ride and it handled fantastically. So it has very little to do with axle diameter.

Nevertheless from engineering/functional point of view, as far as 120-160 forks go, pre 2017 Fox axle/clamp system was the best. That's how it should be done.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: You hit the nail on the head right there.
  • + 3
 @BryceBorlick: f*cking aye.....well said. My thoughts exactly. I'm still Keeping on with my 26er till it''s broke!!!
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: bahahaha. Try brazzers.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Are you providing content for that site too?
  • + 1
 @Chingus-Dude: too late, no one wants it already
  • + 1
 Because my wheels were falling off too often
  • + 1
 @DJ-24: It's inevitable.
  • + 1
 @Catch22: Awesome. I got an Endo as well. Smile
  • + 3
 @DJ-24: SRAM has Boost handle bars coming out soon.
  • + 2
 The only mild improvement since 2010 had been wider tires and rims. Everything else is just pointless marketing masturbation.
  • + 1
 Bet you got stiff reading this article
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: 20mm bolt on FTW. Agreed. The Predictive steering thing... don' t get me started...Again! Manitou Hex lock had promise (hex head interface to hex head axle cllamped on insertion/ opposite side) but then it just became branding. If you are aggressive, and think the start weight for Clysdale class should be called Ponies, yeah 15mm has flex. Side note: did you know that Castelli apparently only makes women's clothing? I can just get my bare forearm into their XXL jacket sleeve. Yeah 15mm = XC standard.
  • + 2
 @abu634: My secret is that I am always stiff.
  • + 2
 @WaterBear: Most people don't have all the needed tools.

I just bought a 150mm Talas 5. With that, for doing my own service I've had to buy a "crows foot" for the torque wrench. I had to source a 28mm socket for $8 a few states away because $24 is too much for a socket that is not impact rated. And some other tools that I will only use on occasion and that will not fit to any part on my truck or car.

What I'm trying to get at here is that many don't have the tools, or even the time to do work on, or build, their bike.
  • + 182
 I've been telling myself for a few years "I'll buy a new bike when things settle down".

Looks like I'll be keeping my 2012 until 2047.
  • + 63
 One of the reasons I'm starting to prefer skiing. Things don't change every year, they just evolve and stay compatible. That and the low maintenance costs
  • + 41
 @zede: and the lack of snow of course
  • + 40
 BMX
  • + 21
 same here...
why can't just the bike companies sit down and set a standard for wheel sizes, axle etc. I thought human like predictable things? so we can just plainly enjoy the bike without worrying about when can i find the rim, fork, hub etc. Life its hard, we ride bike to enjoy not to add into our daily things to worry about.
  • + 5
 @zede: Your bang on about that. I have a 2009 ? Burton Fish Limited Edition that has a higher core and base spec than the 2017 models. Sure there are even higher end materials, but exemplifies how things work in mature sports
  • - 2
 @zede: Terrible comparison. Its easier to stay more standard when you have very few parts to deal with that interact. As for the things in skiing like bindings for example, parts can be very specific to certain models, like brakes for instance. Or try getting a replacement (insert here) for a boot that's 5 years old... You really can't compare the two.
  • + 12
 do like i do, rock a 2007 V10 with ano blue alum frame. change a few parts as needed. if it aint broke, dont fix it.
  • + 15
 Just ride your fucking bike.
  • + 10
 @zede: I hear you man. I've gotten back into climbing and I've been riding my Dj more than ever. My trail bike is now on its fourth season and I have 0 intentions of replacing it any time soon.
  • - 1
 @zede: But with skis you get reamed when buying lift passes. For me personally, when I don't even live near mountains, it seems more expensive than biking when all is considered.
  • + 16
 @zede: just ride your bike into the ground....get a new one, repeat. Pink bike has created a desire in me to keep upgrading. The bike industry has created a desire in me to stop upgrading.
  • + 1
 @torero: For real.
  • + 3
 @Pedro404: skiing is so cheap I wish I did it. Try snowmobiling for a couple seasons and you'll think skiing is free.
  • + 4
 @Pedro404: for 1500€ you have very very good skis and very good boots. equivalent would be 4000€ for a bike. With 4000€ you pay for skis, boots, gears, and lift pass for 3 years... A bike requires new tyres, new chain, bleeding, brake pads every year,... For skis, you nearly don't need anything.
  • + 2
 @zede: You're right, I realized that my reasoning isn't that skiing itself is more expensive, but that I don't have the money to do it in the winter when I'm already biking in the summer. OopsSmile

Personally I hate the cold anyway, but I'm starting to want to lean more towards rock climbing for the summer. Super cheap and way less dangerous than mountain biking for me.
  • + 5
 @PLC07 Same here. I have a 2006 Rocky Mountain frame which I'd like to change for a larger one. But that would most likely require a new shock, headset, fork, wheels and tires. Possibly even the seat post and bottom bracket. So I may as well sell the whole bike and start building a new one...

Btw I think we we're currently in the situation when there's no point to call each component with different dimension a new standard - standard is something that's widely accepted, not something that's used by one company and not even on all their products.
  • + 2
 @zede: That used to be true. Boot/binding compatibility has turned into a shit storm with the popularity of AT boots and bindings. ISO 5355, ISO 9523, GripWalk, WTR... If these terms mean nothing to you as a skier, than that's exactly my case in point. Most ski consumers have no idea of the different standards currently on the market so they walk into the shop to get their new skis mounted but they have bindings and boots that aren't compatible.

Also, there are a ton of proprietary parts in the industry. Buckles are rarely compatible across different brands and you sure has hell don't want to lose the boot board in your boot because those change constantly and you can only get them from the manufacturer. Race skis often can only be mounted with a specific brand of bindings.
  • + 0
 @zede: skiing? WTR bindings?
  • + 2
 @meathooker: haha f*ckin eh right
  • + 1
 @Pedro404: Eh just depends on your pass and proximity to the mountains. I've spent way more on gas this year than a pass. I bought my season pass for $450 and have 80 days so far this season so that works out to only $5.63 per day of skiing
  • + 1
 @torero: this times a 1000 gabillion. The industry vertical "for kids" seems to right the ship easy enough. Plus dunno, the "kids" seem to put more emphasis on, um, riding...
  • + 1
 @Pedro404: rock climbing cheap? Well, if you don't do trad. My rack is pretty darn expensive too. And shoes and rope and other soft goods.
But the biggest is time commitment to travel. Cycling I have out of the door.
  • + 3
 I'm still riding a 2008 SC Nomad Mk2 26er as my winter bike. 1.5" steerer and 20mm Fox Float 36. It's still an amazing ride. Smile
  • + 1
 @vikb: I was on a 2005 SC VP Free for a few years. She was a beast, DHX 5 coil 36 Talas. Loved that bike!
  • + 1
 @Axxe: I'm too much of a pussy to do trad, so I'm good.
  • + 1
 Football.
  • + 129
 I honestly think this is a load of crap (not this specific axle sizing but the general theme).

People need to realise biking is about smiles per hour not miles per hour!!!

People also need to be realistic about their riding. I'm still riding a bike that is 17 years old (a reynolds 853 framed dh bike that is now a trail bike by todays standards) and it rocks and it makes me smile.

Consider this. Nico V, Steve Peat, W simmons etc etc etc (any of the big of the big names) rode faster, harder and bigger than 99.99% of the people who ride today on bikes than many would consider substandard by todays standards, if you look at bikes from the 2000-2007 era before things started getting silly.

If you want to go faster - go to the gym, eat healthy & learn how to ride (i.e. don't depend on your bike to get you out of the shit if you mess up a line etc).

I understand in someways why bike companies feel they must keep trying to improve on the technology in the sport - natural development etc but also for sales - essentially once someone has a bike unless it brakes they do not need to keep buying parts etc etc.

Of course this is just my view Smile x
  • + 9
 Best comment. Just tell 're pro's to deal with it and save the poor customer who pays for it all a few quid.
  • + 103
 Fuck me 'now the back end of the bike'' . You fucking c3nts just f3cking changed the back of the bike with boost and now you are planning on doing it again. FUCK you motherfuckers. I can only hope all you fuckers get 'your back end' infested by the fleas of a thousand camels. Have a great day. C4NTS.
  • + 16
 upvote for "fleas of a thousand camels"
  • + 6
 @simooo: thank you kind sir.
  • + 94
 Honestly, am here for the comments.
  • + 76
 I wonder if the bike industry understands that me being able to buy their newest offerings at retail greatly depends on the resale value of my current parts, which they are now making obsolete?

Oh...and yet it continues.
  • + 76
 "It’s really hard to get a group of men together to talk about this kind of thing."
Well, pick a group of women.
  • + 50
 Early adopters are going to chew this shit up and the mtb industry will actually make money by introducing a new wheel standard every year. Fuck you early adopters and fuck you mtb industry.
  • + 39
 It's so obvious this was going to happen. Making a fork wider and keeping a 15mm axle was ridiculous. Why couldn't the industry just go straight onto boost 20mm in the first place? Or would that seem like an admission of error when 15mm was introduced in the first place?

The tactics used to sell products in mtb is shameful!
  • + 4
 I believe Marzocchi actually held a patent on what we're now calling 20mm Boost. When Fox got a hold of Marzocchi they decided to throw the whole 'invent thing, get patent for it, do nothing,' schtick out the window, just like how they and Shimano left the 15mm standard open to everyone. I'm sure the next five years will see the return of 24mm, 25mm and 30mm axle standards from the old days too. Who wants a fork in 30mm Foes? Anyone?
  • + 3
 As bad as this is I'm glad is happening sooner rather than later we all knew 15mm was just an in between measure and eventually the 20mm will come. I guess the industry as a whole just said let's milk the cash cow together. At least we won't have to wait a few years for the bullshit to resolve.
  • + 4
 @Fix-the-Spade: Why in the world did a patent office grant a patent for that? 'Yea it's a metal tube. 20mm diameter, 110mm length. Maybe some threads, a well-understood lever. Hell yea it's novel as tits. You try thinking up new tube diameters and shit.'
  • + 2
 @WaterBear: The United States Patent and Trademark Office has a history of granting extremely open ended and sometimes conflicting patents. They get the majority of their funding through patent and trademark application fees, so it's in their interest to generate as many as possible. Something like this is small potatoes compared the clusterf##k that is electronics patents in the US.
  • + 1
 my hainebrink batfastards where 25mm lets go back to 1999 Smile
  • + 1
 I am pleased to gloat that thanks to rockshox, marzocchi, fox and hope, I have never had 15mm. Never will either by the looks of this.
  • + 38
 Oh Thank god! Someone has finally fixed yet ANOTHER problem that didn't exist, In order to cause way more compatibility Issues....
  • + 2
 Well said. I'll gladly wait out the storm.
  • + 34
 3 years is a bit of a stretch, isn't it closer to 9 months and the new standard is old..
But I'm over it, I'll keep riding my bike till it's flogged out and I have absolutely no choice but to upgrade to something already out dated..

By the way bike industry go GET FÜČKËD..!!
  • + 31
 Lol, so ridiculous, I'm just waiting for a new 26" 150/160mm bike to be released before I ever buy another bike, adverts keep saying geometry's changing longer and slacker but I checked some specs and even that's hardly true, geometry has barely changed by 15mm on most top tubes over the last 5-7 years, stupid industry.

I want to ride The fun 26" wheel size again but with the latest suspension, geometry and rim improvements. Just make everything 'boost' if you have to and then please drop the ridiculous 'boost' moniker altogether as it sounds so nerdy and idiotic.
  • + 14
 Well said man. Give us something we actually want. Bikes that are fun to ride. Where's our 26" trail bikes already?
  • + 33
 I've never bothered to sign up before...but this is motivation enough, finally. Piss Off with this Crap
  • + 32
 We have to reposition DVO on the cool-board. It goes from "cool" to "seriously uncool."
  • + 39
 Also. Put it too high up for Hammond to change it
  • + 37
 I thought he did a good job of explaining, as a small company he has to do this and stay ahead SRAM/Fox otherwise he has to dig around for 80k castings just to catch up.

Small companies offering alternatives are great for the MTB industry, this guy has his hands tied a bit with whatever new standards come out but DVO are trying to stay relevant so they don't go bust!
  • + 20
 You're current wheels will fit no problem with a 5mm spacer that will come with the fork and when both Rock Shox and Fox come out with their Boost DH products I hope we can regain our position with ya! Cheers, DVO
  • + 6
 @JoeRSB: Nailed it: DVO exists as a high performance offering, so they really don't have a choice on being able to end up behind those two 800 gorillas.
If backwards compatibility was properly managed from the outset with Boost, this while deal would be trivial... in this case, that backwards compatibility is there, the Onyx is future-proofed as much as anybody could get it, meaning that DVO had done literally everything they possibly could to minimize the high tempo planned obsolescence bs-train coming from bigger players in the industry. That's why I enjoyed this interview.
  • + 8
 @tehllama: Thanks buddy. The Onyx is backwards compatible and forwards compatible, be nice if everything was like this.
  • + 29
 My middle finger grew 10mm so its extra painful for you to put it up your ass
  • + 12
 5mm. And it comes with a spacer to fit in older models of ass.
  • + 27
 wot in tarnation
  • + 20
 On the positive side (bear with me on this) I did pick up a high end frame just over a year back for only two thirds of retail. It wasn't boost. For all the desperation that companies are putting in to being the most advanced they are causing the value of all their existing stock to fall. Moral of the story being never pay RRP and don't be surprised at standards changing...

And my bike is going to be fine without the latest incremental change for years to come...
  • + 9
 Same here. Just got a brand new last year model of a fantastic 165mm raw colored alloy beast with a skull badge on the headtube. What is this boost stuff you are talking about ??? Ride u f@&ng bikes
  • + 2
 @Lagr1980: To be fair, that last year model is almost identical to the this-year model. I picked up the same skull-badge beast last year, and somehow it's able to absolutely rip, even without Boost. Shocking.
  • + 21
 would it kill the industry to stop with the "innovation", and spend a few years on working on improving suspension designs, frame designs, and how to make things lighter, more durable, and cheaper.
  • + 39
 they could just stop making innovations altogether for like 5 years so consumers could catch up, spend all the R&D $ on sponsoring events and getting new people into riding, the industrys killing itself by not thinking about longevity of the sport.
  • - 13
flag JoeRSB (Apr 23, 2017 at 4:35) (Below Threshold)
 I feel like every company is run by engineers, not marketing people who want to appeal to consumers
  • + 15
 @JoeRSB: Seems to be the other way around to me!
  • + 4
 Absolutely not, taking a break from making the latest-greatest thing would be nice but not sure thats going to happen anytime soon.
  • + 25
 Fuck you mountain biking
  • + 1
 Finally a statement I can get behind.
  • + 17
 This seems textbook example of planned obsolence. Works best with an oligopoly, so maybe there isn't enough real competion in the bike industry with SRAM/Fox dominating suspension, and companies like Giant and Merida making frames for Scott and others.
  • + 7
 Especially knowing they have all the engineering software to find the weakest points in the design. 20mm existed before they made 15mm a thing and they were telling us back then "it is lighter and you don't need 20mm for stiffness anyway" but now 20mm is required for stiffness and the weight difference is negligible. Who knew? Then they release 20mm boost like 2 years ago but that wasn't enough so hey let's make another 20mm standard?

Same for rear ends. We had 135x10, 135x12, 142x12, 148x12, 150x10, 150x12, 157x12 within like what, 7 years? When does it end?
  • + 22
 GET FUCKED YOU CUNTS
  • + 5
 Seconded.
  • + 3
 ++++1
  • + 16
 Is this a leftover April Fools story? Looks like another season bombing Winter Park on my 2004 because 1) it doesn't break, and 2) at this point I'd have to scrap the whole bike and build some ridiculous $6K thing from scratch as nothing on it is a "standard" anymore.
I haven't had a car payment in over a decade, and haven't had to buy any bike parts (other than tires, pads, and seals) in more than 4 years. The only reason anybody follows the next big thing is so they can tell everybody they have the next big thing. I will consider getting a new bike, and deciphering all the options, when one of the dentists on their $8K special can actually pass me.
  • + 16
 Makes total sense when you consider what's coming next. 29er DH forks and wheels will be under several riders at the opening World Cup in a few days
  • + 8
 @general-lee,

You are correct, this is preparing for the introduction of the 29er dh bikes and suspension.

Time will tell if the 29" wheel is faster or not, but the industry will be pushing this as early as next year ( just my opinion).
  • + 1
 @Saidrick: Agreed. but "faster or better" all depends on the application.
Slope Style is still 26", BMX 20" & 24" depending upon application, XC Race predominantly 29", Enduro 27.5 and a few 29" (BC of sponsorship), and I still hold that if it is a true DH course 26" or 27.5 will be better and faster but we will of course see sponsored riders on 29" for the next 2 years then they'll all come back to 27.5 touting some new "improvement" making 27.5 faster again on DH.
  • + 7
 @E-ROG: I can tell you for a fact that EWS racers are not on 29ers only for sponsorship reasons but as a matter of choice. Conversely, I can also tell you quite factually that several racers are actually on 27.5 instead of 29ers because of sponsorship reasons.
  • + 13
 Whenever a new standard comes out, I see a lot of comments on how it negatively affects consumers, but I don't think that is the biggest problem. You can just buy what you need, provided it is still available (and plenty of new products are still being made for 26", non boost, etc). The real victim in this is the local bike shop. The outpouring of new axle standards seems like a deliberate move to cripple independent bike shops: say you need a new front wheel, what is the chance a shop will have what you need? With 4 wheel sizes (650b+ is separate), at least three riding categories, WAY too many price points (would you replace a taco'd ENVE on your 10k Nomad with a cheapo shimano wheel?), AND ON TOP OF THAT five different axle standards, how the hell is the bike shop supposed to keep up and have stock of what you need?

Often enough I see complaints of bike shops not having stock of necessary components, but I can hardly blame the shop for it. How many outdated components are on the shelves of your local shop? So they then have to order the part in, but you know you can get it for 20-50$ less online, so you don't even bother. Rant over, but the point is they are killing local shops, and there is no way they aren't aware of it.
  • + 15
 So, your current wheel will fit and all you need is a spacer for your rotor? I don't see the problem here.
  • + 12
 Now now, there's no place for common sense on the internet!
  • + 3
 You are right, but the frustration is more about a new standard than anything else. Anyways I bet that they eventually are going to start replacing 15x110 with this because "enduro" bikes need that stiffness also... and trail bikes... and xc bikes... and kids bikes!
  • + 3
 Wont work the other way tho, 20x110 boost wheel wont fit a current 20x110 fork, and it doesnt sound like adaptor kits will work this time
  • + 2
 @BryceBorlick: just shave 5mm from the drive side of the hub adapter and add it to the disc side. Have to redish the wheel thou.
  • + 4
 Yes, its confusing too, we will sell the 5mm spacer that goes between the rotor and the hub and bingo, you're good to go.
  • + 3
 @OLTI27: errrr.... my wheel is about 15mm out of dish already. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
  • + 1
 @OLTI27: nice! And I suppose hub companies could offer end caps that are 5mm shorter
  • + 14
 Dear bike industry: f*ck you all. We hope you and all your shills in the media die with pain.
  • + 13
 Fuck off with your new sizing no-one is asking for it
  • + 8
 I could never figure out why 15mm was introduced in the first place (hardly any weight advantage over 20mm). I don't mind the availability of 20mm boost though because of backwards compatibility - the bike industry should take note of that for any future changes. Way back when Mountain Biking began, they used bmx wheels because of the strength but quickly found they needed more rollover ability, they eventually settled on a 26" "Standard" which allowed swapping parts, wheels, forks etc, just the same as we have standardized brake mounts and disc sizes. Unfortunately the unintended consequence of these changes (and don't mention the smiles per hour crap, we like to wrench and change bikes/parts) is that we can't make the full-bore upgrade on our next ride because our last one is outdated. As an example, my 2013 Norco Aurum 1 is a great bike, but as a 26" DH bike, I'm having a hard time finding anyone that wants it, and therefore I can't make the change to an Enduro bike.

The industry really needs to agree on some "Standards" and there could be a few that stay around concurrently (we still have 160mm and 200mm disc rotors for different applications) - Change is good, but change too much too fast and too often? all you have is confusion.
  • + 6
 Ya, there was nothing wrong with the og 20mm
  • + 0
 15mm was invented because they wanted to deliver better system to XC riders using QR9-s. The goal was to improve stiffness of the fork and wheel removal which Fox system achieved at the first go, and it took RS 2 iterations of Maxle to get there. These are hard FACTS. Now, we can only speculate why they didn't just do 20mm right away and my bet is that 20mm looked to heavy for XCers and had connotations with downhill, so in this way by making 15mm XCers could feel that they have something "XC specific" and they ate that right away. XCers are head cases when it comes to such things which can be seen with how fkng long it took them to start adapting dropper posts. Now many downhillers and AM riders miss a big thing with stiffness, and that is, the increased axle diameter doesn't equal more stiffness. Not on it's own. Clamping type is even more important. Rockshox Maxle just fks up the interface since axle isn't really clamped. So it doesn't really matter if it is 25m or 15mm when clamping is compromised. Fox got it, and kept proper clamping for 36 and 40, so did BOS for some time. RS mitigates this with their predictive steering, but it's bollocks, axle on trail and dh forks should be clamped. For XC where wheel removal is crucial it can stay this way.

However, to give everyone in the industry some slack, the stiffness tends to be overrated and it is possible that fork with fat stanchions like Pike or 36 if given QR9, would still be stiffer than a longer travel fork with 32mm stanchions with 15mm axle. These 35-40mm stanchions are not there for stiffness for the purpose of handling, they are made stiff so that lowers can slide onto them during bottom outs. 40 is often described as "too stiff".

One thing is sure though, it is a fkng mess right now, it's hard to buy a second hand components to match each other. And we can only hope that it will settle down once plus is here.
  • + 2
 15mm was the demise of QR and for that its great. What I predicted and have been watching is the return of 20mm for heavier applications. When the 2015/16 FOX 36 were released for all wheel sizes they came with an adapter for 20mm, the first sign of the return of 20mm. Having said that, the industry is out of control and I for one am keeping my $$ in my pocket for another year or so and waiting.
  • + 11
 Seriously. Stop it. No more.
  • + 7
 Please just f-@k off with all these standards. It's all a load of shit. There are very few riders who can tell the difference between 20mm 'normal' and 'boost'. Stop forcing this onto the buying public.
  • + 5
 its not a load of shit. it's a money grab by the monopolistic companies who control the market
  • + 2
 @otto99: so... a load of shit then
  • + 10
 What a load of rubbish. Please no more of this trash.
  • + 10
 I think someone needs to learn what "standard" means.
  • + 9
 I've read the article twice just to make sure this isn't some joke I'm missing
  • + 6
 Good read. I love DVO. When I was out racing in Bootleg Canyon, my new Fox 40's rebound broke. Fortunately for me DVO was set up there and Bryson helped me get a fork in time to race. Also, last summer I was up in Whistler and Bryson Jr. saw me with my bike and asked me how my suspension was performing and if there is anything he could help me with. It's nice having a company that has outstanding products and is full of great people. With the performance of my emerald and jade, I am too stoked about the onyx coming out! Thank you guys!
  • + 4
 Thanks buddy, glad we can help you out and thanks for riding DVO!
  • + 6
 10 years ago, were two standard s 10mm for normal riding, 20 for agressive; then 15 lame were introduced;

Currently my bike have boost rear and non boost front; in order to buy new wheels I wether need to change fork or use adaptors which is ridiculous to use for hi end hub and frame, or go fully custom which will be obsolete in a few years
  • + 6
 I don't feel confident anymore with my 15 mm boost...
I'm afraid now that it will ruin my ride or fail...
I absolutely need that 20mm asap or I can't ride anymore...

Please a doctor now!!! I'm in panic now! And can I even leave my bike alone???
Won't it collapse under its own weight due to that old 15mm boost standard ????
I'm scared !!!! :///
  • + 8
 Why is it called a standard and not just another option? It's not like you have to buy it.
  • + 16
 Stop being logical. Now grab your pitchfork, and come join the lynch mob.
  • + 7
 by reckoning 90% of pink bikers class themselfs as the top 2% as they can tell the diffrence between a 20mm and 15mm axle yet cant tell the diffrence between 26 and 27.5
  • + 3
 I'm only a weekend warrior and I can tell, if you're even slightly in tune with your bike you can pick up on minute changes, the whole "2%" snobbery is plain naive, maybe they mean only the top 2% can truly benefit from the increased stiffness, but I sure as hell could tell when the new 15mm 'wet noodle' standard came in... That said, any axle diameter is irrelevant if you don't have pinch bolts on the dropouts, as inconvenient as they are, you have room for crazy flex without properly securing the axle to the leg.
  • + 2
 I'm fat enough, so there's a chance I can detect the difference despite being slow... Whether or not I go faster is another question entirely.
  • + 9
 I'm tapping out... This is just getting stupid now.
  • + 10
 FUCK U
  • + 7
 15mm axle was the one standard that actually seemed to be a standard. Triple crown bikes aside there was one size for everything from xc race bikes up to 180mm park bikes.
  • + 10
 It was part of the new standard mate, 20mm and we were already there
  • + 8
 Did you not listen? 15mm came out after 20mm....
  • + 5
 Over a decade of watching you dumb f*cks in the engineering department screw my pooch and I still don't give a f*ck about your new "standard". 26 is my shit.
27.5 is great for trail, and I've never felt a noticeable difference in structural integrity or rigidity on boost wheels or fork or chainstays at all. I don't buy this BS.
  • + 6
 I'm on the pulling hair out side of this.....except for as goroncy mentioned, trickle down economics, get the "outdated" stuff for pennies on the dollar from the trend obsessed have it alls.
  • + 8
 Man, screw this. I guess the only positive thing is that maybe I'll get to pick up a new outdated frame soon for cheap.
  • + 5
 LOL that we're back at 20mm! Good thing that I kept my old wheels. Never really understood 15mm. If the single crown fork is already more flexy, then why bolt a smaller axle to it? Should be the opposite maybe - hard charging sc forks need a 24 x 110 axle. LoL
  • + 1
 SHHHHH ! Don't give them the idea of axles bigger than 20mm for single crown forks. That's 2020's new standard sorted !
  • + 10
 f*uck you
  • + 4
 Oh and btw, even Motocross dont always run 20mm axle for many of them...
So I assume if a Motocross can handle a 15-17mm front axle any f*cking bycicle can live with 15mm...

We people when on this events need to go and talk to the Brad's to let them know that they can their new size up to where they love it...
  • + 4
 While you (the bike industry) may fleece a few idiots or newbies with these new "standards", you are losing money hand over fist from experts like me who refuse to buy new bikes out of principle. 2000-2007 I bought a bike every year or two at around $2k a bike. Conservatively speaking I spent $8k and was quite happy.

These days, the industry is attempting to charge that on one bike. The $8~10k "enduro" bike with the new standards isn't fooling anyone who has put in 1000's of hours on dirt. These days I ride an NS that I bought in 2010, and I'll probably build another NS for around $2~3k in the next year. I fix and build things myself, and shop on the good old internet to keep costs low.

To wrap it all up for you the industry. You had a returning customer, who actually purchased bikes and service from your local dealer network. Before "innovation" and "standards" went crazy I spent an average of $1k per year to ride, it was reasonable as I always had a nice and new bike. Since then I spent $2k on a bike and maybe $300 on online parts over the last 7 years. So now I'm spending 1/3rd of what I used to. I'm spending 1/3rd and I'm making much more than I did when I was a college student.

For now the industry can afford to ignore us. The sport is growing and drawing in new, rich blood that will buy into their ridiculous standards at a premium. This growth however is unsustainable. That pool of customers will transition into returning customers, and bringing new riders into mountain biking at today's staggering costs, is already prohibitive to new riders. Looking at the existing mountain biking base, are we spending more money or 1/3rd? What does it cost to transition us back to buying every year or two from an LBS? At what year of experience do new customers start fixing and building on their own? For now the industry can choose to ignore these questions...
  • + 5
 No need to read the comment section since there won't be a single complaint since all the hard core riders on pinkbike complain about how they needed 20mm axle cause they could feel the flex in a tiny 15mm axle.
  • + 1
 That extra 2.5mm of bending moment makes all the difference. Wink You would probably have to be 'plugged into' the bike to notice any difference if at all!
  • + 7
 I wish Terminator would go back and time and assassinate the f*ck tard who came up with "boost"
  • + 3
 lol, that was a the best comment here.
  • + 5
 Simply a way to make your old parts incompatible. It is not innovation its about f.ucking us over on purchasing used bike parts.
  • + 3
 Don't you mean here come another new marketing gimmick that is the best thing since sliced bread and if you don't buy it your sister will get herpes, your car will spontaneously fall apart and your roof tiles will fall off unless you buy it.
  • + 3
 Sounds like Rock Shox has driven most of the recent fork axle standard changes. I've definitely noticed and no volume of advertising will get me back at this point. I'm really hoping for a market share loss as part of a consumer backlash but I'm not holding my breath.
  • + 3
 So,with the retro-adaptors to make older forks fit, will that result in greater flex and decreased performance of existing forks sizes? This is seriously eroding confidence in the industry. Get the "men" and women together and figure this shit out as consumers are going to start boycotting.
  • + 3
 any way you cut it, this is how to do new standards. you can still run the older 20x110 wheels. That is awesome, and lets people ease into the new standard which is simply creating better triangulation, which is where boost148 failed to capture even spoke triangulation and still suffers from unbalanced tension (the bane here). Great move, thought out with the customer in mind. DVO WILL get my money for my next shock. thanks guys.
  • + 3
 Thanks buddy, appreciate your support. At least with the new Onyx its backwards and forwards compatible and won't make your current DH wheel set instantly obsolete. I hope the other guys go this direction because hurting the consumers is race to the bottom. Cheers!
  • + 6
 And STILL the average bike buying community doesn't get that they're being played constantly by the the industry!
  • + 3
 This boost 20 axle makes no sense without a new steerer. We need a new steerer that can increase stiffness by 2.5% while gaining 7gr on the scale.
Come on guys, please do it ! Tapered steerers are so mainstream now ! Current frames, forks and stems would be obsolete at the same time ! We need that ! Please please please please !
  • + 5
 Giant and I think Trek already tried this, with the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" taper steerer... Unfortunately some idiot marketer at Rockshox probably just noticed your comment and is already sketching designs for the new 'metric boost + taper 4000' steerer standard due 2019
  • + 3
 As a previous owner of 2 giant overdrive 2 bikes i still have a terrible taste in my mouth.

My trance i was able to swap out the cheesedick fox 32 (thank god it had an extra 1/8" uptop for the extra stiffness). Whole thing flexed under braking. I put a normal taper factory 34 and changed my headset. I was only able to get $100 for the 32 because it fit zero other bikes.

My anthem was ok, it came with a sid but it still flexed reguardless of the steerer size.
  • + 7
 Bo$£ox. Theres always a market for dumb people with too much money.
  • + 2
 People get so butt hurt on this site. No ones making you buy anything. If your old stuff works fine than keep riding it. If you need a new bike, fork, wheel, whatever then buy it. If you're buying something and worried about the resale value, then why are you buying it in the first place?
  • + 2
 I only buy complete bikes. Upgrading parts is a horrible financial decision. If my new bike has small technological advances every time I buy one I'm happy about it not upset. With this mentality, none of the standard changes over the past 10 years has affected me negatively. Look at the automobile industry; every manufacturer has its own standards. Even within the same brand there are different standards. There's probably 1000 different types of oil filters but do you see anyone complaining?
  • + 6
 Hey, Bike industry!?!....F&*^$ YOU!
  • + 4
 What is this boost nonsense? I've just started using Quick Releases and you can remove tires very quickly for loading your bike in the car!
Wink
  • + 2
 They mentioned Brent Foes, surprised they didn't mention his 30mm through axle standard.

Also the author this article asking "should we have gone to 20mm on both ends?" Isn't aware(or has forgotten) about the short lived Razorrock Racing 20mmX160mm standard originally available on early Clifcat Cycles.
  • + 2
 Anymore, I don't really give a shit. I'd rather just buy complete mid-spec bikes, take the loss when I sell it in three-four years, and buy something new. No sense hanging onto parts, wheels, etc. when everything ends up changing. From here on out, I'm not buying any more aftermarket forks, wheels, whatever. Buy a bike, install bars, pedals and grips that I like, and run it stock. Replace broken shit with stock parts.

The whole idea of these standards (starting with the brutal murder of 26") has changed my perspective. I no longer think of my bike like a tuner car, I think of it more like a Honda CRV or a f*cking Camry. Use it for a few years, then dump the it for a new one. Don't invest in high-end upgrades that won't do a damn thing for resale value. Understand that there's going to be depreciation when you sell it, and try not to get too butt-hurt about it.

This takes a lot of the fun out of customizing a bike, but who cares. I'm here to ride, not to piss and moan about shit like hub standards.
  • + 2
 If this industry just "settled" years ago we'd still be riding 26" rigid. Things change for a reason. Funny that when suspension came around there were very few people saying, no way. Stuff wears out, might as well buy the latest and greatest.
I won't go into a auto dealership with my 10 year old truck and be mad if the new version of this truck is totally different and better..... "No way with that new truck, I just want a new one like my 10 year old truck". I believe that's called being closed minded.
Bryson tells it like it is when he says this industry needs to get together and make settled industry wide agreements on "standards" changes. For the last 20 years they haven't.

But at the end of the day, all the BS gets cleaned up in the wash.
  • + 7
 This is ABSURD
  • + 1
 Eff you bike industry and all the customers that buy into this shit. We had a perfectly good standard in 20x110 non boost. Why make forks heavier, loose a bit of traction and loose all campatibility? I didn't even read the article, I am so over this shite..
  • + 1
 You know who's to blame? Riders who feel like a 3-5 year old bike, frame, wheelset or really any part besides tires and grips is "old". I have ridden frames for 7 yrs plus and never feel like they hold me back. Stop consumerism and the brands will stop hustling us. 264ever btw.
  • + 3
 Is mountain biking in the dark ages. Its like the 20mm was just easier, we went backwards, to then move forward to the standard we had in the past. 20mmaintdead.
  • + 1
 If it keeps bikes depreciating faster I'm all for it. Saw a pike equipped Dropper posted Trance 27.5 for under $1000 in the pawn shop last month. That's like an over $1000 per year depreciation rate. It didn't help at all when everyone here rode XC crap but now everyone is on the mid travel bandwagon yippie!
  • + 1
 Didn't you guys read this?
"Well, I listen to some of my top riders who really push the forks a lot more and they could go with a stiffer set up—they appreciate Boost—but those guys represent the top 2 percent of all riders"

So, don't be mad ay the industry - BLAME THE PROS!!!
  • + 1
 Meh, whatever. That's an easy one to build an adapter for to fit old wheels. And don't hate on DVO too much, they're a small fry and have to try and be bold to keep up with where they see the market going. Probably not necessary, but oh well. A consortium for mtn bike standards should absolutely happen, I think a lot of companies are working together already, it's just taking the final step.
  • + 1
 You know what, if it works for you stick with it until you go new. If the new standard is better you'll benefit when you go there. I bought new this year for the first time because I wanted a warrantee and the lower spec new bike is a bit of a revalation but so was my last second hand. Whilst I'm a bit pissed that my new bike is almost obsolete in the space of the months I'm stoked with it and how good it is. Hopefully I'll love it like I love riding
  • + 3
 Next year it will be boost 30 because 30mm hub bearings are faster an you will need hotter spokes so your wheel can be 0.0001% stiffer
  • + 0
 don't forget the new 28" and 30" wheel size upgrades coming out soon......

if 29" is faster than 27.5, 30" will be faster than 29"! LOGIC! and 31", well thats for the real pros in 2020.
  • + 1
 Remember when 15x100 landed? Some people claimed about the nonsense of going backward on axle size.

The responses was: "you don't ride hard enough to broke a 15mm", "talk with your wallet", "ok, go and ride your cantilevers"...
Those guys needs to buy a new front wheel again. Haha.

I can't stop laughing.
  • + 1
 Go ride ur bikes . Clean them and maintain them . Work forever..... and just change broke parts. Main thing get fit and have fun.... All them companys with this new shit... put ur money into sponsorship and and races...
  • + 1
 Twenty years later... Honestly this should have happened when rockshox produced the boxxer and dho with a 20mm thru axle in 1997. They had already decided on 20 " 110 spacing, they could have standardized the industry around a wider flange and disc offset for dh forks. As to marzocchi and their QR20 in 2001. It sucked. It was an open dropout lowers with a big qr axle. If you didnt tighten it correctly the wheel fell out... Usually on the first jump landing. They then had had redesigns with wing cam paddles under the lowers to retain the axle which easily damaged and are nigh impossible to now find replacements for, and took longer to use than a simple bolt in threaded axle. Rockshox meanwhile came up with their 20mm tullio dropout and axle for the psylo forks that worked so well they never had to be improved/redesigned and indeed fox copied for their 36s fork lowers.
  • + 1
 They should finally invent a LiveUpdate system, just like in software world. Should any new standard modify any part by a couple millimeters, subscriber's bank account would be charged and he would receive all new parts needed to stay fully updated to the latest 9.5.2.7.1b version of enduro bike. Then again... you usually pay once for the product in software world.
  • + 1
 "You might welcome all of this news. You might, however, also feel like tearing out your hair over the idea of yet more changes. If you count yourself among the latter group, things are not as bad as they might seem. Downhill fork manufacturers, for instance, can provide rotor spacers that allow you to use your existing 20-millimeter wheel with their new Boost 20x110 fork (the rotor spacer would just shift the rotor over five millimeters). "


Except you can't put spacers or shims on center lock rotors only 6 bolt.
  • + 1
 I just bought a new bike and the guy in the shop convinced me to go for the boost Pike. Feels solid but let me see... it weighs 100g more than the non-boost pike, then I had to get torque caps for my Hope hub.. more weight again. They should have stuck with 20mm axles like the old Pikes... I guarantee they'll go back to 20mm in the next generation of forks.
  • + 1
 They will keep doing new crap to let the old stuff obsolete. The problem is that we keep buying new crap. Let's get organized and stop buying shit! Fuck FOX, fuck Rockshox, lets buy from that one company thats willing to be consistent.
  • + 1
 That's subjective dude. Cycling has lost its wild side. It's all marketing, sell, what's new to the market, what are the opportunities, new standards, obsolete and introduce new. Guessing what the market will want, let's give it to them before they ask. Not for me. Oh sorry Pike for the win.
  • + 2
 Seriously. I'm all for progress and improvement. Redesign axles and hubs to be awesome, do it right, DONE. So tired of incremental changes and "standards" that last a year or two.
  • + 1
 I just stick with the obsolete yet perfectly fine things that I have and wait till no one can take all the improvements any more.
To me it feels like "Be able to afford a house at some point or go with the ever changing standards"
  • + 1
 I honestly see no downside to 20mm Boost. Increased performance (even if only marginal) if you want to run the new wheels, or you can carry on running your current wheels with no issues! Wish everyone would actually think about what they're bitching about. This isnt like Boost 148 where theres no backwards compatibility, its just and extra option for those that want to make the most of it!
  • + 1
 I have 15x100 wheels.
  • + 1
 Makes me appreciate the old days with Marzhocchi Bombers and Stratos S7s. Bolted crowns. Change in width standards, get a new crown, fork arch. Done. Change in steerer, get a new steerer tube, new crown, done. Ah the good ol' days. Sigh.
  • + 1
 Pass, and I'm speaking of new standards every damn year, not DVO particularly. This constant switching for minor tweaks is beyond stupid, especially given the price to play these days. Keep this shite up and I'll have to go back to motocross to save money.
  • + 1
 Like Bryson said there has to be standardization. I work in manufacturing and there are standards that have to be met so customers are not buying or upgrading every year because it becomes so expensive. It's not just expensive for the customer but also the manufacturer as well. This is especially true for a hobbyist sport. Just because a standard is set does not mean innovation stops.
  • + 6
 I really wish there was some general standardization, we always push for it but the big guys won't even consider it, it all about changing for the sake of change and disruption.
  • + 1
 @DVOSuspension: Oh I know. My buddies always have to buy the latest and greatest stuff, then to only realize it's not compatible with their existing set ups. I always have to make adapters, spacers and what ever else you can think of to make it work. Standards are easy to set but unfortunately in the end it comes down to sales and marketing. The big guys also want to monopolize the markets and drive out the smaller competitors because they can afford it.

Look at Bontrager and what they are doing internally to standardize their own product line and reuse existing procedures to bring costs down internally but also bring costs down for the customer. It makes perfect sense.

www.pinkbike.com/news/do-wheels-need-to-cost-so-much--interview--sea-otter-2017.html
  • + 1
 @lax4545: The big guys play hardball thats for sure, its the way it is but at some point the market pushes back and takes a break on buying the latest and greatest stuff, hence the current sales decline.
  • + 1
 I am all for progression, this is how we have our modern day AM bike. With that said.... to me, here are the two biggest problems with bikes aside from the constant industry changes:

1. tires..... they get flats...... more durable tires that are actually more durable......
2. (i am probably in the minority here but...) create a new standard for the rear derailleur/ get it out of the way or invest in gearboxes....

Those are the things that break on bikes the most, why not fix those seemingly simple problems?????
  • + 5
 fuck. get fucked. fuckitty fuck
  • + 1
 It's sad that the leading manufactures of a sport I am so proud of have total disregard for the customer and environment. The industry should be regulated by an independent body and the manufactures who prosper from such changes shouldn't have control of the direction of these pathetic standards. I get a real sense that this is mostly being driven by SRAM. Can anyone confirm how/whom roles out these standards?
  • + 3
 Stop please stop these insanity stupid standards! We're already poor of the old standard stuff we bought and work's pretty damn good!
  • + 3
 so this article just 100% clarified the bike industry only cares about the top 2%, so when i see big arguments over products i am going to ask are you in the top 2% lol.
  • + 4
 Dear mtb industry, I know we need to evolve but you are not like computers that need to be updated every year.
  • + 1
 Oh f*ck off already. I mean seriously... come on. I appreciate that he was relatively candid on the topic, but- while that may bring a smirk to my face, it doesn't change the facts. The bike industry, with all these minuscule changes at a constant rate, are jerking the customers around. Shit, I don't even know what I should buy anymore- I legitimately have no clue.

This little gem stuck out to me:

"So you can run your old wheelset—you just have to space your rotor five millimeters out and we’ll be providing rotor spacers with the fork that let you do that."

Who here is old enough to remember IS brake mounts? We're bringing those little shims back, with how easy they are to use, and whatnot. Now that's advancement right there!
  • + 1
 bump the brake mount over 5mm and the innernets go ballistic. My Super 8 in 2000 had Magura Gustavs with this wider front hub flange spacing & Rob Sears (RIP) @ Razor Rock Racing even made 20x150 rear dropouts and hubs for it.
  • + 1
 'we need some kind of consortium. Like a group of guys that gets together and talks this standard stuff over' this is us, the customer, the reader of this article. one way or another the mtb industry will hear us load and clear
  • + 1
 Yeah boys i like it wide and stiff cause I ride it hard now you have just anota excusa for not being able to keepup with my back boost wheeled butt plus I reveal you a secret boost axl is perfect for ride y'all gf very hard by the time you re at the top I m just arrived at her house. Thank you besty boosty
  • + 2
 Me thinks the "industry" should focus more on serious customer service than on "innovation" which is ols things in a new package!
  • + 1
 Achieving good customer service requires effort, and requires investment in people. Changing shirt for the sake of changing it requires a comparatively small investment in engineering, tooling, and public relations. So... Yeah.
  • + 1
 Love reading Bryson or Bryson Jr's stuff. They never seem to be waist deep in hyperbole. One day DVO will be an 800lb gorilla two and I just hope they don't lose this touch (i doubt they will)
  • + 2
 Thanks buddy!
  • + 3
 Maybe if they would stop calling it a "standard" I wouldn't be so pissed. "Standards" don't change with the season...
  • + 3
 super stupid, keep it coming (have not purchase a NEW bike part since 2011)
  • + 2
 As usual...Bryson is a straight shooter and tells it like it is....By shooting straight DVO will soon be the big fish and be able to halt this nonsense.
  • + 2
 Thanks buddy.
  • + 1
 @ pinkbike folks: How about one of your side-of-the-page polls on how much we spend on a bike? Be interesting to know if anyone really spends 5000 Dollars/Euro/GBP on a brand new one...
  • + 1
 Just picked up a used Fox 36 Float 180 for, wait for it, 26" wheels and current 20mm King hub. I'll be changing the oil and lubing the seals every friggin' week to keep that thing running as long as possible...
  • + 1
 If I was competitive and had the money, I could justify upgrading as it does have its perks. Right now though, I'm quite content with what I have as I'm more of a casual rider these days. Keep up the good work DVO!
  • + 1
 Thanks buddy!
  • + 5
 22 days late
  • + 0
 5mm shims stack to space out brake rotor on older 20/110 hub ? Did they do any calculations? 200mm rotor stopping 70+15kg weight in 50km/h in few seconds, and they suggest to screw the rotor bolts actually by 5mm LESS in the hub body ?!!!!!!!
They, this Mount The Boolshitz standards industry, should have never leave the once setup 20/110 standard in favor of 15/110 nonsense and now, they could have come up with this new hub standard. I bet, they are going to introduce 20mm axle in the rear wheels in a few years, which is totally logical.
This is nonsense industry. Of course it§s tough for them to gain profit when they think they must be doing these sadomasochist plays to everyone else.
  • + 3
 Longer bolts.
  • + 1
 SO MUCH BULLSHIT! Just stop fucking changing everything, make fucking bikes standars!!!! The bike industry will stop progressing at some point, I think people are getting tired of it! Milking the cow too much!
  • + 1
 I just re read this three times. I'm selling my bike and picking up crochet...... Thanks mtb industry. You break my dreams every year.
  • + 2
 Reasons why i haven't bought a NEW bike in many many years 1. Money 2. Constantly changing standards
  • + 2
 How could something be even called "standard" if it changes to a different thing every year?
  • + 1
 "they’ll buy a new frame or wheelset when things calm down and the standards stop changing every day"

Waiting on the next gen. Nomad with boost squared and a Fox 39
  • + 1
 ill just stick to my trusty stock stanz rims and axels on my 2013 steel salsa ss. bullet proof as the day is long. "if its not broke don't fix it'
  • - 1
 Goddamn industry. Interview should be like:
PB: "So.... you gonna revive the dead 20mm axle standard?"
Fork dude: "yeah... see, the industry trends predict that..."
PB: "Dont, just f*cking don't"
Fork dude: "but... but"
PB: "just... don't! you're embarrassing yourself. please, just don't. thank you, bye bye now".
  • + 2
 The best way to say Fock you to the industry is to dust off that old 26" hardtail and slay some trail
  • + 1
 This will make the wheel manufactuer's happy. One wheel with two sets of axle spacers, done. Just might even bring the price of a wheel set down....
  • + 2
 Just fitting MinionSS 27,5 to my 55rc3v2. Perfect fit for new xc standards =].
  • + 3
 oh, the sweet sound of pinkbike users brains exploding....
  • + 1
 Hey kids thats the St Louis Arch, the Gateway to the West. Its over 900ft and you can ride the evevator all the way to the top.
Aw cool dad, can we go?
....NO.
  • + 2
 "benefits of wider hub flange...." Thats what I have been missing out on in life, benefits from wider hub flange....
  • + 1
 If this was news from Fox or RS(don't you f-ing dare), I'd have been more pissed. Sorry DVO. You're a smaller player and you're on your own son!
  • + 6
 They picked DVO for the release since they have more credit to burn. Fox and RS had theirs spent a long time ago.
  • + 9
 @southoftheborder: I think they picked us cause we would tell the real deal about how disruptive this new wheel standard has become. When we first launched the Diamond it was 100mm spacing and then RS started pushing Boost and after spending half a million dollars in developing a fork that could possibly be outdated in 6 months wasn't a good feeling.
  • + 5
 @DVOSuspension: I'd ask Vernon and RC to do another sit down, and explain that in a position like DVO's, every single thing that is infuriating about the state of play in the MTB industry to consumers, is basically actively trying annihilate you're livelihood. Knowing about that from previous reading, I immediately started looking at how the Onyx was intended to be both backwards compatible AND future-ready... Looks like from the comments here, being on the cutting edge technologically came with being the messenger bearing news many didn't want to hear, but in trying to package enough message into an article which is readable in one visit to the throne room, arguably too much of that nuance is lost.
Lead with how much investment in the Diamond (and similarly Jade/Topaz with Metric sizing there) you have had to chase with big capital outlays which only make sense because being perceived as 'behind' would overshadow any level of damper performance achieved...
  • + 5
 @tehllama: While I'm biased (I wrote the piece) I don't think the nuances of the issue are lost in the writing. Some people read the headline, skim a couple sentences and then dive into the comments section. You obviously didn't do that (and thank you for writing your comment in the first place), but we all know that it happens from time to time on every website.

If folks read the article, it's pretty clear within Bryson Martin's first answer that this is not a standard that DVO is creating and that they are deliberately producing a fork that people can use with their existing, non-Boost wheels. Some topics are thorny and require that people not skim the article. So it goes.

Clearly, this issue of standards constantly changing pisses me off--it's why I keep beating the drum about it. I want products to get better, but I also want the bike industry to more carefully consider how they can innovate without leaving a train of rapidly-incompatible bikes and parts in their wake.
  • + 9
 @tehllama: The capital outlays are massive and that's a tactic used by the big guys to keep the smaller guys behind them or bankrupt. This isn't our first rodeo, we've bene behind 100 million dollar companies before and its easy to see what the other guys are doing but the unfortunate downside is that the big guys are so focused on killing each other that they loose sight on taking care of the customer. We may not have the lightest, latest and greatest products (we think we do) but we will certainly kick their ass in customer service and honesty. But, to sum it up, our new Onyx is backed and forwards compatible and won't cause so much disruption in the marketplace. We feel everyones pain and anger, to think boost hub spacing won't come to the DH market is short sighted because its pretty much already here.
  • + 4
 One of these companies will only sell OEM product to a bike brand that does over 100k per year from them. This is why you don't see this companies product on smaller brands who can't deal with that volume. This is also the same company that spec'd piston tolerances that scraped the ID of the cylinder bore, and did nothing about it (there's an aftermarket fix). Same company that couldn't hit Glyde ring groove tol's so had someone develop a dynamic seal.

So I'd take what DVO's saying seriously. Some of these companies aren't out to provide the best product to the consumer but rather to eek out money for their shareholders. Don't kid yourselves guys, this is a multi-billion dollar industry. As an outsider in a significantly more robust mfg industry, it's clear who's making better product, and who's got the customer in mind.
  • + 2
 Wait, isn't that new school old school. My older single crown had 20mm axle. I had to check he date again for April 1st.
  • + 3
 Three weeks late on the April Fools article. Assholes.
  • - 1
 I welcome this direction. They went to smaller dia. stanctions and axle while trying to tell us we need stiff ass $1200 carbon wheels. Well the way i see it is you got stiff ass carbon wheels connected to pencilly 34mm stanctions by a toothpick 15mm axle. I can appreciate companies like Banshee that will design their frames to accompany different standards by simply changing the rear drop outs ($100). One of my everyday trail bikes (Intense ss1) I went from 135mm to 150mm by changing rear drop outs. They do the same with front hubs made to accept and adapt different stds with spacers and adapters that are made by the mfg and not some cheesey aftermarket add on.

Its like i went to bed in 2008 dreaming of riding my bike, and while i was asleep i missed 142 &148mm spacing, 15mm axles bla, bla, bla. waking up and things are comming back around. Ill just keep enjoying riding my outdated bike.
  • + 3
 re-inventing the wheel every opportunity they get lol
  • + 2
 I really don't care for the increased width of boost forks. Making the fork crown wider doesn't make it stiffer.
  • + 3
 Currently holding my face in my hands after reading this article...
  • + 1
 Folks Formula is already doing it
www.rideformula.com/products/mtb-forks/mtb-fork-selva
it was "easy to predict" yeah for sure!
  • + 1
 With all the vitriol being expressed in here. You'd think it was Huff Post the day after Trump thrashed that bitch.
  • + 1
 Gentlemens, something wrong here, I think... Look: new standard with BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY! Smile
  • + 2
 Backwards and forwards.
  • + 2
 @DVOSuspension: not up and down then? Interesting...
  • + 1
 @nickkk: And upwards and downwards too!
  • + 1
 "wait wait, we didnt get a chance to take as much money as we could from the DH crowd"

- the bike industry
  • + 1
 Not for nothing, but if the standards keep changing then they ain't standards. Just sayin. "Sips beer philosophically "
  • + 1
 Maybe run a fatbike fork up front. Eventually bike industry will catch up with Super Mega Boost that is compatible.
  • + 1
 so many new standards that I sometimes question if there is such thing as a standard........
  • + 2
 And here iam still rocking a 5mm qr.
  • + 1
 Very retro ????
  • - 2
 From my experience DVO is a company that does not even know every bike manufacturer, link desighns etc, and couldn't even help me on how to setup their jade shock. So i wont buy that new standard they are trying to create(just for a 2% of riders), i would suggest to leave new standards aside and make working products.
  • + 7
 DVO is not creating a new standard here--this is not their pet project. The bike industry is moving towards this and DVO and Suntour are the few companies who have decided to speak openly about it--which is a good thing. The interview makes it fairly clear that as a small manufacturer, DVO is in a bind: Shold they release a new fork with the current brake mount location when they know that they will have to cough up another $80K in a year or two to produce a new Boost 20x110 compatible casting? It doesn't make sense for them to do that, which is why they are providing a rotor spacer with their fork, so that you can run your current non-Boost, 20-mm wheel with the new fork. In short, they are trying to make this as backwards compatible as possible. I think it's pretty clear from the conversation that Bryson Martin and Co. would be happy if the bike industry slowed down the rate at which new standards get adopted.
  • + 3
 Hey its Jim Jamp, we know you quite well.
  • - 4
flag jamp (Apr 24, 2017 at 11:50) (Below Threshold)
 with all the respect to anyone, from what i know they are discussing Boost 20x110 for a few year now, so why you came up with this article now? how soon is 'eventually'? Because800 pound gorilla companies also tried inverted forks but they didn't even make production or became a new standard.
DVOsuspension, hey, you might know me, but im sure you still don't know how to setup a jade in a single pivot mtb
  • + 1
 please forgive my spellings and bad grammar - i've not long been awake and not had enough coffee (yet!)
  • + 1
 I'm a little surprised that they haven't gone 20x112 just to really throw a spanner in the works.
  • + 2
 Bahhhhh... bahhhhh... stop gasp for air.. bahhh
  • + 1
 The bike industry hates you, and thinks you're all idiots.


If you don;t boycott this crap, you will prove them right.
  • + 1
 Welcome to the the bikopolus. The party is over. This once fun thing to do is about as cool as Frisbee golf.
  • + 2
 And here I thought standards bodies were the new standard Wink
  • + 1
 The big joke will be when the 148 rear, will become 150!! Ready for the revolution?
  • + 2
 yes, please another standard. right in my butt. sideways. thanks a lot
  • + 1
 How familiar with the gear wars are you exactly?
goo.gl/images/SdGXDd
  • + 1
 I was going to buy a new bike, but now i wont. Get fucked industry, you are milking it too hard!
  • + 1
 A refreshingly honest interview.
  • + 1
 Boost this shiite "idea" out the window!
  • + 1
 This is getting out of hand...
  • + 1
 Yeah, that won't be happening, pathetic.
  • + 0
 For me new standard is always a great news. Filthy rich children will buy this and sell the old stuff never used. I LOVE IT!
  • + 2
 Hey Fucked!
  • + 1
 Sorry your new hub doesn't fit.
  • + 1
 Im switching to water skiing. BOOST THAT!!!!!!
  • + 1
 The freemasons have infiltrated
  • + 1
 We only have ourselves to thank for this.
  • + 1
 ok by now NO STANDARDS ANY MORE is the new standard. Case closed
  • + 1
 Don't fix it if it ain't broke.
  • + 1
 finally, the only stiff axle diameter is back
  • + 1
 I don't boost,I just roost.
  • + 1
 oh just fuck off already with this fucking bullshit
  • + 2
 No.
  • + 1
 22.5 x 112.5 new super DH Boost new for 2018!
  • + 0
 The people who make decisions in this industry are a bunch of scumbags. I don't know how they sleep at night.
  • + 1
 The word standard is meaningless these days
  • + 1
 Stop it!
  • + 1
 Hahahahahahahahah!!!!
  • + 1
 Oh for fuck sake.
  • + 1
 I like that interview.
  • + 0
 Dentists and complaining.
  • + 1
 LOL
  • + 1
 No, stop it!
  • - 1
 Ram it up your ringpiece Dvo
  • + 6
 LOL, thanks for classy words. Everyone is headed in this direction, we got screwed with the first Diamond we brought out that was the cool non-boost standard because the big guys were pushing Boost. Most fork projects take about a half million dollars of investment & fortunately the new Onyx is backwards and forwards compatible.
  • - 2
 Too long article, needs to be shit length.
  • + 1
 How long are your shits ?

If it's over 3 feet I'll be impressed.
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