Video: Wyn Masters Speaks to Yoann Barelli on Sponsorship and Salaries in Pro MTB

 Sponsorship operates on a perceived value basis. The aim from the business is to sell product and promote their image. A brand that cant afford the top level racers for visibility are more likely to turn to influencers. If wannabee racers are chapped that no-one sees value in sponsoring their hobby then that is their issue. I cant see a brand with money overlooking a real talent, and these days having no social media presence is like ignoring free advertising.

 Love or hate social media, I'm not sure you can blame brands for wanting to sponsor riders who have the greatest exposure to the bike purchasing public? This has always been the case, has it not? Sponsorship is a symbiotic relationship between the individual and the brand, where upon the brand helps the individual achieve as much as they can in return for increased exposure and brand awareness. If a company can achieve that awareness without the inherent expense of racing, why would they not explore that avenue?

Yes, that sucks for individuals who want to focus on racing and nothing else, but has anything actually changed? Pre-social media, sponsored racers were always expected to do more than race, with video segments and magazine covers the aim. However, these avenues of exposure had gatekeepers in publishers and editors, and so the same 10 mtb faces would appear over and over again. And let's be honest, those faces weren't always the best racers. The early freeriders like Tippie and Wade, and even the two Martins in the UK, were not winning competitions; brands were just able to market their balls of steel to get pre-internet "clicks" from the public.

So surely the argument can be made that nowadays social media has essentially democratized sponsorship? Now there are fewer gatekeepers. You can put yourself in front people with no help from a sponsor and without relying on a magazine editor to dig what you're doing. You can create your own brand, just like the Martins, and achieve a modicum of success as a result. Does that seem unfair to those riders who are social media averse? Perhaps. But MTB sponsorship has never been a purely race driven racket, and to think otherwise is a little rose-tinted, in my opinion.

 Watching Josh Brycelands Santa Cruz launch videos.. that made me want to buy a Bronson. Personally can't stand 'influencers' who don't have the background of a being a pro of some sort. At least its not as bad as the car industry 'influencers' dam they are so annoying! But this doesn't matter as its only an opinion.

 Some people think they're owed money for being the fastest. Huge respect for those fast racers, I can't do what they do. But contract negotiation, pitching yourself, attracting (and retaining) sponsors, providing value, and reaching the right audience is what sponsors pay for, not just being fast. It's not a right, it's a hustle, and the landscape is quickly changing.

 Yeah- I agree with a lot of the comments. The best race results don't always speak to the best return for companies. The industry doesn't have to provide anyone value but will generally reward those who provide their own value to companies. The industry revolves around businesses and is a business and that is where the value comes from. It's not a meritocracy where the fastest earns the most. I think of riders like Wyn, Yoann, Hopkins, McCaul etc. who do provide a broad value outside of the results. They are all unreal riders and that is some of the package they offer but not entirely. Some riders have done a great job of saying look how fast I am and now lets use these skills to develop product... like what Gwin has been trying to do with TRP, Kenda etc or Sternberg with Transition. You can't expect the world to give you money because you are good at something- you have to find a way to make those skills benefit the market. It's sad when you consider we have people who have dedicated their whole lives to things like teaching literacy to children and become amazing at it and scrape by at the poverty line. Then on the other hand you have some other douchebag youtube/TikTok kid who builds a social media following doing stupid pranks, flashing money around, and using shock clickbait but builds a following of millions and then earns millions from products realizing there is a benefit to borrowing that audience and influence. It's gross but it's the capitalist reality.

 If there is going to be more money in racing EWS needs to figure out live coverage and how to expand the coverage that exist. A race will occur, I'll see the results, one five minute highlight video, and some still shots and thats it. Thats not a lot of exposure for the brands so its hard to see how that can translate to good value. Those guys are amazingly talented and running on awe inspiring courses but I dont really get to see that.

 Wyn had a great point that a lot of brands still just focus on racers and aren't looking at social media. The landscape of marketing and racing is changing. Some companies are holding on to the old ways, and some are looking forward.

The influencers and YouTubers are able to track part of their impact with analytics. Racers, on the other hand, are struggling to find a way to track their influence (and even have influence). We're seeing a lot of racers dip their toes into YouTube, only to find it's not instant money, success, or views like they had thought. It takes a lot of work, hustle, and skill. It's just a different skillset than being the world's best racer.

 My thoughts are that If a pro rider/racer does not use social media in a professional way, then he is not doing his job propperly. It is part of the job

 Is it not up to a company to maximize the advantage of having a pro racer under contract? Or what about agents? Do racers have agents? If not, why not? Would that not maximize their income?

 Tough gig being a mountain biker unless you're in the Top 5 in your discipline year after year. Lots of competition from mid-pack SM influencers. Very limited barrier to entry to become a Youtuber etc. Brands only have so much money for marketing. The pie is getting divided up into smaller and smaller pieces. Its likely easier to get a real job, buy your own bike, trips and entry fees. The pro rider injury factor is also very real. It could have serious long term consequences. Unless I was Olympic level, I'd rather be amatuer with a real job.

 Interesting chat as always @wynmasters and including Barelli into the mix with his experience and background is even more engaging. The salaries and differences between social media and racers is something that comes up a lot on forums and discussions. In Spain we have that issue too, some good riders that have a promising future with very good results but no social media presence or active profiles, get dismissed by brands but other persons without any race results but active social media profiles get bikes, apparel, components, etc. Is sad as some good riders stop competing as they don't have the resources to be able to go to all races, buy new bike, fix broken parts, etc, etc. And as for the last part talking about COVID and bike industry, I've seen the same in Spain and Ireland, bikeshops have run out of entry level bikes and second hand market prices are crazy. Hope this is for the good.

 Would you rather give 10 riders with 20k followers a $10,000 bike ($100,000 total), or give 2 pro racers (also with 20k followers) a $50,000 contract? Unless you think the racers are 5x better at promoting your stuff, you go w the influencers. And tbh, I like following people closer to my skill level because the content is more relevant to my riding. So I might say racers are WORSE at promoting products because "they don't ride like I do."

 Brands are paying for exposure, not results. The FBM example is real and marks the change is how brands market. Results don't really matter, exposure matter. I know from personal discussions that there was a very strong argument to stop sponsoring racers altogether to focus on influencers at one of the big bike manufacturers. Racers like FBM and others that are very fast, but not social media savvy need to get someone in their camp to run that aspect for them. It is hard to stop in the middle of a ride or a good descent to get content, but that is the new reality. The highest paid athletes in the future are going to be the ones that get the most exposure, not the highest results.

 It’s an interesting issue on who should be sponsored. MTB, like skateboarding, surfing and other “fringe” sports have to use social media to get their brand out to the public, brand being bike, parts or human.
Most sports, it’s the best player, athlete, driver, etc. that gets paid and is used in marketing. MTB, not as much. The riders with huge social media followings, do tend to be on the better end of the spectrum but they aren’t always.
I prefer to watch the fastest riders as I like to see what is actually possible on a bike. When I watch rugby on tv or the internet, I want to see the best players playing and not some grass roots local team. Yes, I’ll go watch my former local club now and then, but that’s more for the socializing aspect.
My two cents!

 There's no point comparing top flight international football with downhil mountain biking and enduro, the markets are hugely different in terms of reach and revenue. Even compared to road cycling the entire MTB competition scene audience pales into insignificance.

Look at kitesurfing, there's maybe 3-4 at the top who are making 100k and the rest are on maybe 20k+ comp expenses and kits, and if you're not top ten you'll not even be on that. It's simple economics.

The market isn't large enough to support 1000s of professional riders in MTB. plain and simple.

 Nothing new here. Money in MTB racing has always been pretty crappy. I remember top racers in the UK working in Tescos in the week stacking shelves to support their weekend fun. Its easy to draw a correlation with bigger sports but the reality is all athletes need help commercializing their talent and ensuring they aren't bankrupt within 24 months, which is the case for a huge portion of pro US athletes. An athlete has to rise above the sport and become a brand for themselves. Seth did this well, could do more IMHO, but compared with others is winning his game.I think brands now realize that consumers are becoming de sensitized to pros flying down trails at warp speed, hucking huge drops. What consumers want is the breakdowns, understanding why something works, how it works and how they can make it work for them to be better, faster or just have more fun for a few dollars. Fox is killing it lately doing exactly this. My 2c anyhow.

 Slight chance I've built out a program or two for athletes / ambassadors / influencers, etc for brands in multiple industries. Overall it's complicated beast and dependant on the specific needs / goals for both brand, product and sales, with many variables to take into consideration.

Regarding the $$$ value, there are tools that supposedly track media value (that feel kinda hokey). There are also codes / links etc to track sales, but these only work for immediate transactions in most cases. So in world where metrics rule, this all gets convoluted fast... data misses the emotional quality that invariably accompanies this kind of marketing approach.

My unsolicited advice for athletes, work with brands that appreciate you for being you and support you achieving your goals... just make sure you are always working toward those goals. For brands, work with people that are easy to work with, that listen well, communicate well and deliver on their goals. For both, just understand that your goals may not always be compatible... so either pivot and find the common ground or split up... it's kinda like dating that way and lord knows there are a lot of shitty relationships out there!

 All this talk about riders getting better at social media I'd like to see companies being better at dictating to their riders. I got fed up of seeing riders plugging the new rock shox fork yesterday I went from being interested to having no interest in buying one.... Same with gopro. You get a deluge of plugs that are all the same. It's so forced you just cringe. The riders are only doing as they are contracted but yeesh it smells.....

 It is all about ratings of a rider and selling product because they can reach more people. You see YouTubers like Seth's Bike Hacks that are making way more money than some of the top pro riders because he has millions of followers and companies see the value. It is a bummer that some of the best riders on the planet get paid so little, but it is reality of mtb riding because pro mtb riding doesn't get a lot of TV ratings. If they were able to televise mtb racing better then pro mtb racers would get paid more, but so far the bike industry hasn't found a way to increase ratings especially for EWS. XC and DH racing, gets much higher ratings than Enduro racing.

 Great Podcast and always love the good vibes each of these riders exude on social media and in person. Good luck to both of you on getting the best financial support possible from sponsors to support your careers and families now and in the future.

That said, the data does exist that can be tracked to almost all social media sites that a sponsored athlete or other marketing value added item has upon their financial performance. Of course, whether or not it is shared, is up to internal company protocols. I would suggest making friends with the marketing / financial data analysts within the IT department of a company for the value added data queries you're looking for

 The missing question is what do the dealers want - and will your Instagram/ social media presence attract and support dealers in your region
Geoff Gullivich rides a bike( Focus) in the bike mecca of B.C but there are no Focus dealers ( there was a couple in Alberta for townie bikes) .100 k plus followers on Instagram, 185k on YouTube- zero mountain bike sales in his market. He sounds influential but for Focus is it worth it if people cant buy the product or attract dealers.

Dealers also love support to there market - trail adoption/ maintenance, sponsoring local races, supporting bmx ( future mountainbikers) - building bicycling in the community, money well spent. Social media influencers are pretty far down the list

The cream will rise to the top in racing - if you foster this your brand , shop , community will go alone for the ride inspiring more riders and support for the industry.

 Being the top of anything is not enough, you need to market yourself. In non-athlete business the best technical people will only get so far (career, salary, status) if they don’t market themselves - in this world that usually means networking, volunteering for strategic tasks to get in front of the right people, and yes sometimes having a social network presence.

Mountain bike is still fringe compared to the big 5 sports. It’s also difficult to have real spectator numbers consistently which negatively impacts sponsors. As much as an athlete should just be able to focus on their sport, they will never get a bigger piece of the pie if they don’t have that public presence. Truthfully, the career of a top-flight athlete is extremely short in terms of working years. The smart ones realise this and plan their transition while at their peak.

 If EWS races were broadcasted live like a world cup, riders like Flo would certainly make more in the ews. You watch a 20 minute video of a 2 day, sometimes 3 day race and the average video time of the racers is like 30 seconds.. 45 seconds if you're lucky and a little more time if you're one of the top 3 racers.. so it's a bit hard to relate to racers in the EWS circuit. They seem to have more of a necessity to have a bigger social media presence to compensate for race results. No wonder that most of the new professional mountain bikers with youtube channels are EWS racers, with a few exceptions the WC DH circuit.

 Brands are always looking for a good return of investment, take cosmetics/make up for example. The brands used to use celebrities to promote their products but that got turned on it's head when YouTube tutorials became popular and now the brands almost solely use YouTubers to market their products (to great effect!).

MTB brands aren't paying racers for that 1st place, their paying for the effect it gives...exposure. If you're winning races but no-ones watching then that's not a great RTI for the brands.

Social media can be a great RTI, they're posting original content weekly (or more), engaging with potential customers and building a loyal fan base.

Getting 100k, 500k, 1,000,000 views every month has more value than a racer occasionally getting on a podium a handful of times a year.

Now if a racer gets good results AND has a good social media presence then that's going to make them pretty irresistible! It's a little bit of extra work, building a YT channel can take time but a pro automatically has a head start if they have at least a little bit of a name for themselves or friends in high places.

 It will be great to see a Bruni's Outspoken special episode with Brosnan and Barelli.

 Its an odd business all around. If you are a serious enthusiast (or more) rider, then you likely have your own ideas and preferences for buying bikes and gear. In which case, neither racer nor "influencer" actually do any real influencing.

At the opposite end, shops are apparently generally sold out of less expensive bikes thx to COVID. I suspect the number of people who bought these bikes based on this or that racer or youtuber is very small.

On one hand I agree racers are "underpaid" for all the things mentioned. But no one owes you a salary because you want to ride your bike. Go to school and get a decent paying job if that is what you want.

At the end of the day, I suspect its a bit of a fishbowl environment with very limited reach outside the already dedicated core audience and thus relatively limited sponsorship dollars scattered about.

 Totally agree that a lot of racers are underpaid, but you can't make the comparison with other sports like baseball/football. The vast majority if money in mainstream sports comes from TV rights, which comes from the size of the audience, something that mountain biking doesn't have. I think where the sport is now is miles better than 20 years ago and the top top pros probably can actually retire when they retire, for the rest of the riders it's good that they can earn a living doing their passion for a few years

 I still believe that to sell bikes you need to have a top racer.

To sell clothing, protective... influencers can do the trick.

Don't get me wrong but we see much more Commencal Supreme, Demo, Trek Session than Cube (Remy Metailler's bike).

 Especially if they don't have any sort of professional background, all of those youtube influencer bros annoy me to no end. Oh so you're "sponsored", are you now. But for doing what exactly? Thats not being sponsored, thats literally just selling yourself as a walking ad billboard. Your public image revolves solely around displaying advertisements. Well done, must be really fulfilling work. Go on then, f*ck right off out of my social media feed. Sorry, but really not sorry at all.

 One good point brought up in this podcast was the matter of what level should sponsored racers be paid. I think a big factor in that has to do with the size of the fan base and anticipated income of product sales that come from the promotion of racing on a particular product. Another good point was the factor of the amount of effort that goes into training to maintain fitness to be able to compete in the upper echelons of the mountain biking. I'm certain the effort put in is equally just as significant as any stick and ball sport such as soccer, American football, baseball, basketball, cricket, rugby, hockey, etc. The problem is many of those sports have much larger fan bases, and coincidentally much greater viewership. If it were not for that stick and ball sport athletes would not be able to demand their typical seven figure salaries. With said, it is also true, that even professional mountain bike racers have a limited career of 15-20years at best, which is pretty true for most professional sports as well. I do not however, think that it is reasonable for mountain bikers to paid seven figure salaries if their fan base is not as substantial as a stick and ball athlete, and/or if the product/brand they represent doesn't yield annual revenue of product sales to support the athletes. This gets messy though as most stick and ball athletes represent the brand of the Team, for mountain bikers that would be bicycle brand they race for. Stick and ball athletes do get additional endorsement bonuses for representing products they use, but again that is in addition to a base contracted salary. I'm not an expert by an means on mountain bike racer salaries or contracts, but I think it would appropriate to have salaries established for what ever level a racer will be competing in (i.e. World Championship, UCI World Cup, etc.) and based on the extent of racing participation they are planning for a given season. Then you add in bonuses for podiums and winning of championships, and on top of that you should get a bonus for the number of sales that the product you race yields. And then you'd have your supplemental bonus endorsement for thing like clothing, footwear, helmet, etc. Perhaps stick and ball athletes are not the best comparison and it'd be better to compare with athletes of Motor Cross, Super Bikes, or general motorsports. I'm inclined to agree that if you'r racing say Category 1 in a domestic series, you should be earning at least $130,000. If you're racing an international series as a rookie you should be making at least $150,000. If you're racing international with some podiums in your past but no championships $175,000. If you sport the rainbow jersey you should be making $200,000+. Now are that an appropriate salaries, or the breaks significant enough, I'm not sure, perhaps they should be higher and wider, but definitely I don't think it should be lower. The bike industry is pretty flush with cash, but even with that said I doubt even the top executives are doing any better than low 7 figures if not mid six figures. It would be interesting see what the difference in viewership is of professional mountain biking versus other sports, though, as that would help put things in perspective. I also agree with the sentiment that professional mountain bikers should be either racers or social media promoters, expecting both seems unreasonable and unfair. Being a professional athlete is a significant time commitment as it is, expecting the social media presence as well seems excessive. I don't think futballers and F1 drivers are expected to compete/train and maintain social media, so why should professional mountain bikers?

 Is he ripped? Good god, I can see he has his Weetabix.

 At some point its also about the person, because most of these MTB youtubers are just huge nerds with over the top thumbnails...

 Barelli: I wish there was a way to know how many bikes we sell. Well, I asked him on his YT channel about his Meta as I was in the market for a new bike, he didn't get back to me so I bought a Capra.

 Off to check out Sam Hill Instagram.....

 as a pro racer you need to use all the social media as well, professionality.

 Yoann is so shredded !

 Am I the only one that thinks it is funny that they look almost exactly like the same person?

 How do (some) pro earn most of their money ? By promoting stupid Monster/RedBull and other shitty food and drinks.

 Iggy Pop's looking well.

 Sponsored by the potatoes they used to film themselves

 Hesitant to click on this. I have zero interest in Wyn when he's in his fourteen-yr-old-boy humour mode, but I really enjoyed this. Would love to see more of Wyn like this.

 Are they twins? Am i seeing double?

 Props to Johan to be so brave and humble to talk so openly... even can cause him some gossip...

 Wyn seems that he had a lot of bavarian beers!

 I love how non English speaking people are honest .