Racism - Just... Why?

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Racism - Just... Why?
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flag Jamie-K
Posted: Jul 1, 2010 at 4:31 Quote
If there is one thing that really, really grinds on me, its racism.
I simply can't stand it.
If I hear it, I go off on one and rant about it.

The BNP, UKIP, KKK and other racist groups/parties/sects - Your views on it all?

If you are racist, or have "negative views on other cultures" try and back up your point why. Also, before (if you do post) the argument - "Blacks commit most crime!" Look up the statistics first.

Still, I can see this potentially becomming quite a blood-bath of a thread, so keep all the racism to a minimum unless you have some seriously powerful points to back up why you think that way.
flag ezekiel
Posted: Jul 1, 2010 at 7:42 Quote
Some people are ignorant and then unfortunately those ignorant people have children who they teach to be ignorant. Eventually these ignorant people want to feel united (or simply validate their long held racist beliefs) so they join other ignorant people and form a group. That's my view on the matter.
flag Jamie-K
Posted: Jul 1, 2010 at 9:56 Quote
ezekiel wrote:
Some people are ignorant and then unfortunately those ignorant people have children who they teach to be ignorant. Eventually these ignorant people want to feel united (or simply validate their long held racist beliefs) so they join other ignorant people and form a group. That's my view on the matter.

Agreed. I like that view, the rejects of society form their own little cult.
flag GenericName
Posted: Jul 2, 2010 at 16:29 Quote
Jamie-K wrote:
The BNP, UKIP, KKK and other racist groups/parties/sects

I'd agree with you on pretty much everything apart from this... I'd be interested to know why you think UKIP are a racist party and group them with the others?

I'm not bothered - I'm not a massive supporter of them or anything - I'd just disagree with you there.
flag dylangreen91
Posted: Jul 2, 2010 at 17:41 Quote
Racists are uneducated, end of story. They stay in there own little world and don't know any better. I pity them for the most part, because of there upbringing. They just need to travel to other countries and experience other cultures.
flag Jamie-K
Posted: Jul 3, 2010 at 6:59 Quote
GenericName wrote:
Jamie-K wrote:
The BNP, UKIP, KKK and other racist groups/parties/sects

I'd agree with you on pretty much everything apart from this... I'd be interested to know why you think UKIP are a racist party and group them with the others?

I'm not bothered - I'm not a massive supporter of them or anything - I'd just disagree with you there.

I can understand that their policies on Asylum, Immigration and Refugees are less "known" then the classic points on the KKK or the BNP, however several of their points on Immigration on their manifesto just scream racism.

"No votes for Immigrants, Refugees or Asylum Seekers."
"Immediate five-year freeze on immigration."
"Expel Islamic extremists." (Which I can't see being plausable at all; so I think they'll just kick out overy Islamic person who they have an inkling toward.)

Their views on immigrants and cultures aren't as "on the surface" if you will, as the BNPs and KKKs are, however you can see that they are still quite racist.
Still, like I said, its harder to see with them. During their Manifesto discussions, they just went on about the same three things:

1) Law, Crime & Order (of which, most of their policies in this catagory were pretty diabolicle.)
2) Defence (which some of their policies, although they seemed "golden" would be nigh on impossible to bring into effect.)
3) Education and Training. (Again, some "golden" ideas but just impossible to bring into effect.

Underneath, they are just as inward thinking and closed-minded as other Right-Wing parties. Dead Horse Madder
flag GenericName
Posted: Jul 4, 2010 at 15:56 Quote
Jamie-K wrote:
I can understand that their policies on Asylum, Immigration and Refugees are less "known" then the classic points on the KKK or the BNP, however several of their points on Immigration on their manifesto just scream racism.

"No votes for Immigrants, Refugees or Asylum Seekers."
"Immediate five-year freeze on immigration."
"Expel Islamic extremists." (Which I can't see being plausable at all; so I think they'll just kick out overy Islamic person who they have an inkling toward.)

Their views on immigrants and cultures aren't as "on the surface" if you will, as the BNPs and KKKs are, however you can see that they are still quite racist.
Still, like I said, its harder to see with them. During their Manifesto discussions, they just went on about the same three things:

1) Law, Crime & Order (of which, most of their policies in this catagory were pretty diabolicle.)
2) Defence (which some of their policies, although they seemed "golden" would be nigh on impossible to bring into effect.)
3) Education and Training. (Again, some "golden" ideas but just impossible to bring into effect.

Underneath, they are just as inward thinking and closed-minded as other Right-Wing parties. Dead Horse Madder

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that bit. I'd say they not so much racist as "protectionist", they see large scale immigration as a threat to the economy and seek to close it off full stop rather than some sort of compromise. As opposed to the BNP, who oppose migration on a simple "we don't like you" basis. I think the thing about islamic extremists is just to gain votes - as you said introducing it consistantly would be next to impossible, and would cause many problems.

Even apart from any issue of racism, I wouldn't trust them to run the country, along with any other "one issue" party.
flag Jamie-K
Posted: Jul 5, 2010 at 2:44 Quote
GenericName wrote:
Jamie-K wrote:
I can understand that their policies on Asylum, Immigration and Refugees are less "known" then the classic points on the KKK or the BNP, however several of their points on Immigration on their manifesto just scream racism.

"No votes for Immigrants, Refugees or Asylum Seekers."
"Immediate five-year freeze on immigration."
"Expel Islamic extremists." (Which I can't see being plausable at all; so I think they'll just kick out overy Islamic person who they have an inkling toward.)

Their views on immigrants and cultures aren't as "on the surface" if you will, as the BNPs and KKKs are, however you can see that they are still quite racist.
Still, like I said, its harder to see with them. During their Manifesto discussions, they just went on about the same three things:

1) Law, Crime & Order (of which, most of their policies in this catagory were pretty diabolicle.)
2) Defence (which some of their policies, although they seemed "golden" would be nigh on impossible to bring into effect.)
3) Education and Training. (Again, some "golden" ideas but just impossible to bring into effect.

Underneath, they are just as inward thinking and closed-minded as other Right-Wing parties. Dead Horse Madder

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that bit. I'd say they not so much racist as "protectionist", they see large scale immigration as a threat to the economy and seek to close it off full stop rather than some sort of compromise. As opposed to the BNP, who oppose migration on a simple "we don't like you" basis. I think the thing about islamic extremists is just to gain votes - as you said introducing it consistantly would be next to impossible, and would cause many problems.

Even apart from any issue of racism, I wouldn't trust them to run the country, along with any other "one issue" party.

True. Its a one-sided argument really. I, personally, see immigration as a good thing. People always complain about it and the most commonly used point against them is clearly the "they take our jobs" ploy. I believe they only take the jobs that:

A) Some of us cant be arsed to get up and do.
B) The ones we simply dont want to do.
C) They seem to have, by far, a far higher average intelect. We give them jobs like dentists, doctors and surgeons as they are clearly the most qualified. Only a small proportion of our country now has education awards like PhDs, Masters and Honours. Its decreased by something like 22% in recent years, and with an all time high in drop-out numbers in year 11 - Its no wonder then why they get all the jobs, managers dont want most of us to work as we're simply unreliable.

Of course this only applies to that proportion, and the rest of us are fine with Immigration as it works well with us. You'll notice also, its working and upper-class (even though the upper-class is now a tiny, miniature proportion) that are prodominately racist. The BNPs members are almost entirely Working class Labourers, Technicians and cleaners. (According to the UAFs review on their members anyway).
These are the jobs most people dont want to do but the immigrants, refugess and asylum seekers will do it, not just for less, but they'll do the job so much better.

To me, I think Immigration is perfect. I think they should be given more then they ask for to be fair. And if people think that we're over-crowded, well the country can support 100 million if we balance out, and if that doesn't work we'll just throw out the undeducated masses who dropped out of school. Let them see what its like to find jobs in other countries.

Thats my, admitedly biased, view on the matter Razz Smile
flag marty660
Posted: Jul 5, 2010 at 11:00 Quote
Some interesting bits...


bigquotesThey seem to have, by far, a far higher average intelect

bigquotesthe country can support 100 million if we balance out


It's ironic that 60 years ago popular thought was very racist and suggested that White's were superior mental and physical beings... now some would think the other way around...

It's not intellect that makes them seem that way. Many have simply been put in a position where everything in their lives drives them to succeed in school in order to obtain a good job. Whereas in Western countries, popular thought seems to be something more like "I know someone who got a good job without high school, maybe I can do it" and promptly go back to smoking marijuana too much, thinking it'll just happen. (It won't).

Some specific immigrant cultures (Indian, Hispanic, Asian, etc...) have different statistics even - governments discriminate that way, because statistically people from Asia get the most PhD's whereas Hispanic immigrants don't. Is it because they're smarter? No. I've met Hispanic immigrants who speak perfect English, are very intelligent, they just don't care about being a doctor, whereas I've met immigrants from India who are literally as dumb as a board but get 95% averages - they're driven.


That's the difference. Most of the world is hungry, we're not, most of the world loves (our at least grudgingly wishes they were here) our culture, we either flat out don't or don't really care.

I think immigration fixes these issues well also. It provides specialists and people who will fill up the holes. However, I feel like large-scale immigration (Like what the UK is approching, 500,000 a year or something close) is too much - it causes friction at home (from those same ignorant people who, I"m sorry, are never going to not be part of the world) and in a sense it's more like replacement then immigration - I know I'm Canadian and don't really know, but I wouldn't be too satisfied if my Mother Kingdom was put in a place like the Native Americans were. Not physically, I know that won't happen, but culturally for sure, as most of the UK will be descendants of recent immigrants by some time shortly after 2050 or something.


But yes, Immigration provides a lot of things. All that the Americas amount to is basically an Immigrant island. But then, even in face of the marvelous things which have occurred here, the progress, etc... I'm not sure that Geronimo would've still been that happy. Which to me is the point: Our world is made better by immigration, both through the obvious economic advantages as well as the awesomeness of meeting foreign cultures and seeing their stuff here at home - the European Christian culture - from England to France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Poland, Scandinavia, that world - is something equally as beautiful as other cultures, not lesser or cheap, simply different and to us it is normal and therefore lesser and cheap. The idea of that disappearing, well I'm not too fond of - it's my history.


And on the 100 million bit, well I personally think all of Europe is already too crowded and I'm not sure if you'll get that much mountain biking done in such an England. Haha.
flag GenericName
Posted: Jul 6, 2010 at 15:51 Quote
I don't think immigration is quite such an unqualified good like that.

True. Its a one-sided argument really. I, personally, see immigration as a good thing. People always complain about it and the most commonly used point against them is clearly the "they take our jobs" ploy. I believe they only take the jobs that:

A) Some of us cant be arsed to get up and do.

Partly true. A large proportion of the working class these days has become the "benefits class" if you can make a similar amount from benefits as you can from working and get a house paid for etc, people see no reason to work. Jobs still need doing though, and will attract migrants. This is good and bad - the fact that they come shows the free market is working and they come here, earn money, pay tax and arent a drain on the economy. The fact that it happens at all is bad though as it means there is a problem with the way we pay our benefits though - there is no incentive to work. It can become a problem too if migrants send large amounts of cash home, as this is money leaving our economy.

About the "taking our jobs" thing... I'm in two minds about this. Yes, it is a lazy argument often used by uneducated people, often the type I just described and is usually wrong. However, labour works just like any other good, and if someone offers it cheaper, buyers (in this case employers) will buy from the cheapest seller. So it is possible that if there is a large migrant population employers will lower wages to a point that people here cant afford to work for, but migrants will consider good, then local workers will be "forced" out of work, and immigrants will take up jobs. So it's not that they take the jobs really, but a large immigrant population can have the effect of lowering wages in an area.

B) The ones we simply dont want to do.

As above.

C) They seem to have, by far, a far higher average intelect. We give them jobs like dentists, doctors and surgeons as they are clearly the most qualified. Only a small proportion of our country now has education awards like PhDs, Masters and Honours. Its decreased by something like 22% in recent years, and with an all time high in drop-out numbers in year 11 - Its no wonder then why they get all the jobs, managers dont want most of us to work as we're simply unreliable.

Not too sure about this - a large proportion of migrant workers work in unskilled jobs. Chiefly because the can earn far more here than they can at home, because of this, employers here can pay them less and they will still be willing to work. Also, we are more educated now than ever before - approachng 50% of school leavers are now going to university (this has its own problems - degrees are now less valuable as more people have one due to it being far easier to attend uni these days).

Of course this only applies to that proportion, and the rest of us are fine with Immigration as it works well with us. You'll notice also, its working and upper-class (even though the upper-class is now a tiny, miniature proportion) that are prodominately racist. The BNPs members are almost entirely Working class Labourers, Technicians and cleaners. (According to the UAFs review on their members anyway).
These are the jobs most people dont want to do but the immigrants, refugess and asylum seekers will do it, not just for less, but they'll do the job so much better.

I would be wary of trusting the UAF, they're as bad as the BNP, just that they're crazy leftists, and the BNP are far right. But they're probably right as to the membership of the BNP. This is likey because it is these type of job that immigrants do, and these people see them as a threat. I find it ironic though, that traditionally these would be left wing (old labour) voters, but are flocking to a right wing party. Shows that a lot of these people are pretty uneducated.


To me, I think Immigration is perfect. I think they should be given more then they ask for to be fair. And if people think that we're over-crowded, well the country can support 100 million if we balance out, and if that doesn't work we'll just throw out the undeducated masses who dropped out of school. Let them see what its like to find jobs in other countries.

Again I don't think you can be as definite as that. Services such as schools, the NHS, even simple roads etc are already struggling to cope, large scale immigration would place a huge strain on these. However, immigration is necessary to fill holes in our labour force and obviously can bring certain cultural benefits too. Cant see the country supporting 100 million though - there are already 2.47 million people unemployed, the economy needs to grow before it will withstand any serious population growth. Also dont forget the impact of having to house that many people - there would be a huge loss of farmland and food prices would sky rocket (hitting the poorest first and hardest) and we would be reliant on imports (which is not good for obvious reasons).

I think during times when the economy is in the gutter (i.e. now) we need to limit immigration as there are already too many unemployed - bringing more people into the country will mean more unemployment, and more benefits to pay, which we can't afford. When the economy is growing though I think we should still be wary, but allow people to settle. relying in immigrant labour for growth can be unstable (e.g. Germany during the 1960's) but has many benefits. Something similar to the Australian system would be ideal - anybody can come, provided they have something to offer, for example, if we're short of bricklayers, then anyone with bricklaying experience should be welcomed. That way we dont end up with too many people with unneeded skills - which will always lead to unemployment.

Obviously genuine asylum seekers and refugees are obviously differant and shouldn't be decided on the same terms.

Also like to add, while there are times I feel immigration is possibly a bad thing, I don't have any bad will for the immigrants themselves (as long as they're honest and willing to work, which the majority are). If I felt I could earn more money in a different country and it would benefit my family I'd be there as well.

Thats my, admitedly biased, view on the matter Razz Smile

Out of interest, biased how?

That turned into a bit of an essay haha, apologies for any spelling mistakes/things that dont make sense, it's late.

Edit: the quotes didn't come out quite as i hoped, so just emboldened bits instead.
flag Jamie-K
Posted: Jul 7, 2010 at 1:07 Quote
GenericName wrote:
I don't think immigration is quite such an unqualified good like that.

True. Its a one-sided argument really. I, personally, see immigration as a good thing. People always complain about it and the most commonly used point against them is clearly the "they take our jobs" ploy. I believe they only take the jobs that:

A) Some of us cant be arsed to get up and do.

Partly true. A large proportion of the working class these days has become the "benefits class" if you can make a similar amount from benefits as you can from working and get a house paid for etc, people see no reason to work. Jobs still need doing though, and will attract migrants. This is good and bad - the fact that they come shows the free market is working and they come here, earn money, pay tax and arent a drain on the economy. The fact that it happens at all is bad though as it means there is a problem with the way we pay our benefits though - there is no incentive to work. It can become a problem too if migrants send large amounts of cash home, as this is money leaving our economy.

About the "taking our jobs" thing... I'm in two minds about this. Yes, it is a lazy argument often used by uneducated people, often the type I just described and is usually wrong. However, labour works just like any other good, and if someone offers it cheaper, buyers (in this case employers) will buy from the cheapest seller. So it is possible that if there is a large migrant population employers will lower wages to a point that people here cant afford to work for, but migrants will consider good, then local workers will be "forced" out of work, and immigrants will take up jobs. So it's not that they take the jobs really, but a large immigrant population can have the effect of lowering wages in an area.

B) The ones we simply dont want to do.

As above.

C) They seem to have, by far, a far higher average intelect. We give them jobs like dentists, doctors and surgeons as they are clearly the most qualified. Only a small proportion of our country now has education awards like PhDs, Masters and Honours. Its decreased by something like 22% in recent years, and with an all time high in drop-out numbers in year 11 - Its no wonder then why they get all the jobs, managers dont want most of us to work as we're simply unreliable.

Not too sure about this - a large proportion of migrant workers work in unskilled jobs. Chiefly because the can earn far more here than they can at home, because of this, employers here can pay them less and they will still be willing to work. Also, we are more educated now than ever before - approachng 50% of school leavers are now going to university (this has its own problems - degrees are now less valuable as more people have one due to it being far easier to attend uni these days).

Of course this only applies to that proportion, and the rest of us are fine with Immigration as it works well with us. You'll notice also, its working and upper-class (even though the upper-class is now a tiny, miniature proportion) that are prodominately racist. The BNPs members are almost entirely Working class Labourers, Technicians and cleaners. (According to the UAFs review on their members anyway).
These are the jobs most people dont want to do but the immigrants, refugess and asylum seekers will do it, not just for less, but they'll do the job so much better.

I would be wary of trusting the UAF, they're as bad as the BNP, just that they're crazy leftists, and the BNP are far right. But they're probably right as to the membership of the BNP. This is likey because it is these type of job that immigrants do, and these people see them as a threat. I find it ironic though, that traditionally these would be left wing (old labour) voters, but are flocking to a right wing party. Shows that a lot of these people are pretty uneducated.


To me, I think Immigration is perfect. I think they should be given more then they ask for to be fair. And if people think that we're over-crowded, well the country can support 100 million if we balance out, and if that doesn't work we'll just throw out the undeducated masses who dropped out of school. Let them see what its like to find jobs in other countries.

Again I don't think you can be as definite as that. Services such as schools, the NHS, even simple roads etc are already struggling to cope, large scale immigration would place a huge strain on these. However, immigration is necessary to fill holes in our labour force and obviously can bring certain cultural benefits too. Cant see the country supporting 100 million though - there are already 2.47 million people unemployed, the economy needs to grow before it will withstand any serious population growth. Also dont forget the impact of having to house that many people - there would be a huge loss of farmland and food prices would sky rocket (hitting the poorest first and hardest) and we would be reliant on imports (which is not good for obvious reasons).

I think during times when the economy is in the gutter (i.e. now) we need to limit immigration as there are already too many unemployed - bringing more people into the country will mean more unemployment, and more benefits to pay, which we can't afford. When the economy is growing though I think we should still be wary, but allow people to settle. relying in immigrant labour for growth can be unstable (e.g. Germany during the 1960's) but has many benefits. Something similar to the Australian system would be ideal - anybody can come, provided they have something to offer, for example, if we're short of bricklayers, then anyone with bricklaying experience should be welcomed. That way we dont end up with too many people with unneeded skills - which will always lead to unemployment.

Obviously genuine asylum seekers and refugees are obviously differant and shouldn't be decided on the same terms.

Also like to add, while there are times I feel immigration is possibly a bad thing, I don't have any bad will for the immigrants themselves (as long as they're honest and willing to work, which the majority are). If I felt I could earn more money in a different country and it would benefit my family I'd be there as well.

Thats my, admitedly biased, view on the matter Razz Smile

Out of interest, biased how?

That turned into a bit of an essay haha, apologies for any spelling mistakes/things that dont make sense, it's late.

Edit: the quotes didn't come out quite as i hoped, so just emboldened bits instead.

You raise some very, very interesting points. I've never thought of some of the sides you mentioned before in such detail.
I'll write a full "reply" back later and I'll send it as a message, but for now, the biased part was that I'm a very, very far left socialist. Smile
flag GenericName
Posted: Jul 7, 2010 at 6:44 Quote
Haha no problem. sorry for derailing your thread a bit. Guess what I was getting at is that racism and immigration are two different issues. It annoys me almost as much as racism itself when people think that because you dont support large scale immigration you must be racist.

Look forward to your reply mate, I'll try and keep an open mind!
flag Jamie-K
Posted: Jul 7, 2010 at 9:14 Quote
GenericName wrote:
Haha no problem. sorry for derailing your thread a bit. Guess what I was getting at is that racism and immigration are two different issues. It annoys me almost as much as racism itself when people think that because you dont support large scale immigration you must be racist.

Look forward to your reply mate, I'll try and keep an open mind!

Haha, an open mind isn't always good, but you do have an open mind! I agree, sometimes Immigration is not the answer, I just hate the thought that after 5000 years, some (some) of us haven't managed to live with each other in a calm, peaceful way. Not just with Immigration, but with just people calling each other racial names on something as small and as insignifigant as colour.

Still, like I said, you do raise some amazingly strong points. I get close minded aswell in these kind of things, I just see that everything against anyone else is bad and if that other person is a differant colour, its automatically racism. That has been pretty much the extent I've gone too in some case discussions. Which is never a good thing as then I become as close-minded as the serious, die-hard BNP and KKK members. Still, I love discussions, and most of the time they go well, its just I canfreely admit to being slightly biased towards my own cause perhaps a bit, (far) to much. Razz
flag xcrisx
Posted: Aug 1, 2010 at 11:56 Quote
some of you have made the false assumption that immigration means a strain on our welfare services, housing and NHS. this is partly true but also partly false.

the fallacy that all immigrants to the UK are welfare seeking scroungers is one that has been pushed by the right wing parties in this and other countries. This goes hand in hand with the posited idea that theyre taking our jobs. How can they be coming here to take our jobs and simultaneously be putting a strain on the social security fund? its that sort of double think that the racists rely on to create bad feeling and distrust of minorities. if they havent taken your job then theyve taken your council house or skipped in front of you at the doctors office.

How many times have you heard that asylum seekers get council houses ahead of local people? a quick check of the home offices figures shows that to be entirely untrue.a fund has been set aside (quite apart from the local councils own budget)to house asylum seekers and even then they are very often housed in privately owned homes or homes run by charitable trusts.

we have a real problem right now in the UK with idiotic organisations like the English Defence League, supposedly patriotic pressure groups who oppose islamic extremists, but who in reality are just the old neo nazi scumbags with a new haircut. thier justifications for thier hatred of all things muslim are as laughable as they are offensive, but the fact is that they have grown in number over the last year as discontentment with our current economic situation has started to reach street level and we are all feeling it start to bite.

we can only feel the symptoms but never see the cause, so we look for a target and that target is, as always, the immigrants. thier voice is weaker and they dont have the means to defend themselves against attacks and accusations. thats where groups like Antifa are needed. We oppose and confront racism wherever we see it. we will try to educate at first and, if that doesnt work, we will take more direct action.

fortunately, the EDL are a bunch of football hooligans and thier own worst enemy. they have attacked the police and had thier stupid heads split open for it a few times now, so theyre doing our job for us.
flag wrestletilyoudie
Posted: Aug 9, 2010 at 22:40 Quote
just my 2 cents but racism has to come from some where same with stereotypes. a lot of them are true to a degree but that part of that races culture not the race it self
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