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Boxxer r2c2 or WC? Help me decide!

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Boxxer r2c2 or WC? Help me decide!
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flag Farry
Posted: May 17, 2013 at 2:25 Quote
I have had both forks and personally I would go for the R2C2. The World cup does need more maintenance which does get a bit tedious after a while. Also a coil fork is much more linear through its travel than air fork which I think makes it feel alot nicer, more predicatble and easier to setup. I found the World Cup lacked a good mid stroke and if you wanted to improve the mid stroke you had to sacrifice too much of the small bump sensitivity. I am sure people will disagree with me but alot of people have had the same opinion. If your mad keen on saving weight then maybe the world cup is for you but I dont think the weight savings are that significant and I do feel the coil offers much more performance gains. Ive also had a Fox 40 and would have to say I prefer the Boxxers.
flag jumpman2334
Posted: May 17, 2013 at 9:46 Quote
if you have to ask, you should probably just go with the r2c2..
flag smallerrich
Posted: Jun 19, 2013 at 17:23 Quote
Bit off topic, but what's the difference in the R2C2 and the RC in simple terms (im not particularly fork savvy)...

Why a £300 ish difference?
flag Hughezy
FL
Posted: Jun 19, 2013 at 19:44 Quote
More adjustments giving you a smoother ride. I had a 2011 r2cr and it was an awesome fork
You get low speed compression, bottom out and starting and ending rebound
So you can fast rebound for the first 50% of the travel but then a slower in the Last 50%
Bottom out stiffens the fork up in the last 80-90% of the travel so you don't bottom out your forks.
Not to sure about the low speed.
flag ThEGr33k
Posted: Jun 20, 2013 at 2:18 Quote
Hugh summed it up well. The RC is simpler in design offering just rebound and compression (both of which aren't that great, I had to mod my compression to make it work right). The thing is for the £300 you can get a full Avalanche cartridge for the RC that will make it better than even the world cup fork.

Avalanche cartridge ~ £275 at current conversion.
flag slidways
Posted: Jun 21, 2013 at 0:58 Quote
curious for which one you ended up with, I have a R2C2 and I can say if you are a fast rider you need to do a reshim.
The fork lacks massive support and the compression ends up reducing traction and making a harsher ride without increasing support, they are a good fork but the stock shim stack is no ideal if you ride at a decent speed.

I personally would have gone with a 40 again or a Boxxer RC and put the avalanche cartridge in.
flag ThEGr33k
Posted: Jun 21, 2013 at 3:10 Quote
slidways wrote:
curious for which one you ended up with, I have a R2C2 and I can say if you are a fast rider you need to do a reshim.
The fork lacks massive support and the compression ends up reducing traction and making a harsher ride without increasing support, they are a good fork but the stock shim stack is no ideal if you ride at a decent speed.

I personally would have gone with a 40 again or a Boxxer RC and put the avalanche cartridge in.


Ah yea, part of the mod I had to do on the RC I have was to take out some Shims, WAY too harsh with the stock stack. Not a hard job but it makes me wonder just who these forks were meant to suit!?
flag slidways
Posted: Jun 21, 2013 at 4:13 Quote
ThEGr33k wrote:
slidways wrote:
curious for which one you ended up with, I have a R2C2 and I can say if you are a fast rider you need to do a reshim.
The fork lacks massive support and the compression ends up reducing traction and making a harsher ride without increasing support, they are a good fork but the stock shim stack is no ideal if you ride at a decent speed.

I personally would have gone with a 40 again or a Boxxer RC and put the avalanche cartridge in.

Ah yea, part of the mod I had to do on the RC I have was to take out some Shims, WAY too harsh with the stock stack. Not a hard job but it makes me wonder just who these forks were meant to suit!?

First time i have ever heard of people needing less shims. Maybe the RC was shimmed different, I need to double my whole shim stack
flag ThEGr33k
Posted: Jun 21, 2013 at 5:46 Quote
slidways wrote:
ThEGr33k wrote:
slidways wrote:
curious for which one you ended up with, I have a R2C2 and I can say if you are a fast rider you need to do a reshim.
The fork lacks massive support and the compression ends up reducing traction and making a harsher ride without increasing support, they are a good fork but the stock shim stack is no ideal if you ride at a decent speed.

I personally would have gone with a 40 again or a Boxxer RC and put the avalanche cartridge in.

Ah yea, part of the mod I had to do on the RC I have was to take out some Shims, WAY too harsh with the stock stack. Not a hard job but it makes me wonder just who these forks were meant to suit!?

First time i have ever heard of people needing less shims. Maybe the RC was shimmed different, I need to double my whole shim stack

Yea the RC has a stupid system where it is basically double dampened on the compression side. The oil has to travel through the externally adjustable port dampening which is pretty effective by itself then through the shim stack. When you add them together though it is way over dampened to the point where small bumps don't move it as the shim stack is far too inflexible for smaller movement forces to get past. ATM I am basically running without a shim stack and it is not bad just using the port dampening...

On a slight side note I have actually figured out how to make the RC stock compression dampening work with fast and slow adjustment! Simple as making the 3 existing ports bypass the shim stack and drilling 3 new holes that have to go through the shim stack. That way the 3 existing port holes are the externally adjustable slow speed damping and the new holes to the shim stack limits fast movement as it has to force its way through the shims because the ports can't flow fast enough. Not had the balls to do it yet... Just a case of some strategic drilling.
flag Richmk1
Posted: Jun 23, 2013 at 8:18 Quote
I have 2010 coil boxxers on my 2010 supreme dh ..... Love um . Get them set and there sweet Smile
flag slidways
Posted: Jun 23, 2013 at 10:01 Quote
ThEGr33k wrote:
slidways wrote:
ThEGr33k wrote:


Ah yea, part of the mod I had to do on the RC I have was to take out some Shims, WAY too harsh with the stock stack. Not a hard job but it makes me wonder just who these forks were meant to suit!?

First time i have ever heard of people needing less shims. Maybe the RC was shimmed different, I need to double my whole shim stack

Yea the RC has a stupid system where it is basically double dampened on the compression side. The oil has to travel through the externally adjustable port dampening which is pretty effective by itself then through the shim stack. When you add them together though it is way over dampened to the point where small bumps don't move it as the shim stack is far too inflexible for smaller movement forces to get past. ATM I am basically running without a shim stack and it is not bad just using the port dampening...

On a slight side note I have actually figured out how to make the RC stock compression dampening work with fast and slow adjustment! Simple as making the 3 existing ports bypass the shim stack and drilling 3 new holes that have to go through the shim stack. That way the 3 existing port holes are the externally adjustable slow speed damping and the new holes to the shim stack limits fast movement as it has to force its way through the shims because the ports can't flow fast enough. Not had the balls to do it yet... Just a case of some strategic drilling.

Was this a 2011 RC?

The shim stack should be primarily a HSC adjuster with the base shim/s been LSC, you should be able to alter LSC by changing the base shim/s. The 2011 2-stage should be even easier, as I understand the first stage is your LSC with 2nd stage been HSC, It seems odd that your removed the whole shim stack that would yield virtually no support or dampening control. I have not pulled my fork apart nor done shim stack adjustments yet but through reading I did get that information, heres the link if it helps. Increasing HSC basically puts preload onto the back of the shim stack and increases the force required for the oil to be pushed through the shim stack. This is why upping my HSC doesnt work, and I lack support, I am upping the HSC and this just makes the fork harsh but once its activated the oil flows through the under damped shim stack easily hence it blows through its travel.
I have heard and read about what you are talking about but have not explored it yet, mainly as my fork is under damped rather than over.
http://www.supercross-online.de/Z/valving%20basics.htm
scroll down to number 4. it explains stacks.

from what I have read it seems the shim stack is only HSC in the boxxer but that link and other sources would prove otherwise. SO ill have to confirm the stack configuration and its effect on LSC and ill try remember to get back to it here.
flag ThEGr33k
Posted: Jun 23, 2013 at 13:08 Quote
slidways wrote:
ThEGr33k wrote:
slidways wrote:


First time i have ever heard of people needing less shims. Maybe the RC was shimmed different, I need to double my whole shim stack

Yea the RC has a stupid system where it is basically double dampened on the compression side. The oil has to travel through the externally adjustable port dampening which is pretty effective by itself then through the shim stack. When you add them together though it is way over dampened to the point where small bumps don't move it as the shim stack is far too inflexible for smaller movement forces to get past. ATM I am basically running without a shim stack and it is not bad just using the port dampening...

On a slight side note I have actually figured out how to make the RC stock compression dampening work with fast and slow adjustment! Simple as making the 3 existing ports bypass the shim stack and drilling 3 new holes that have to go through the shim stack. That way the 3 existing port holes are the externally adjustable slow speed damping and the new holes to the shim stack limits fast movement as it has to force its way through the shims because the ports can't flow fast enough. Not had the balls to do it yet... Just a case of some strategic drilling.

Was this a 2011 RC?

The shim stack should be primarily a HSC adjuster with the base shim/s been LSC, you should be able to alter LSC by changing the base shim/s. The 2011 2-stage should be even easier, as I understand the first stage is your LSC with 2nd stage been HSC, It seems odd that your removed the whole shim stack that would yield virtually no support or dampening control. I have not pulled my fork apart nor done shim stack adjustments yet but through reading I did get that information, heres the link if it helps. Increasing HSC basically puts preload onto the back of the shim stack and increases the force required for the oil to be pushed through the shim stack. This is why upping my HSC doesnt work, and I lack support, I am upping the HSC and this just makes the fork harsh but once its activated the oil flows through the under damped shim stack easily hence it blows through its travel.
I have heard and read about what you are talking about but have not explored it yet, mainly as my fork is under damped rather than over.
http://www.supercross-online.de/Z/valving%20basics.htm
scroll down to number 4. it explains stacks.

from what I have read it seems the shim stack is only HSC in the boxxer but that link and other sources would prove otherwise. SO ill have to confirm the stack configuration and its effect on LSC and ill try remember to get back to it here.

Sorry this is a bit of a story!!!! (and off subject a tad).

I have a 2010 Race. I called it RC, probably shouldn't ha ha. I didn't the 2011 RC got another shim stack on top of the other!?

The Race had REALLY bad small bump absorption, in fact the damping on slow speed was that high that when stood up peddling the fork wouldn't move!!! It was horrible over small rocky paths, it was like having a solid fork.

I took out the main shim out as I read this. To my surprise the high speed dampening was hardly affected but the low speed bump absorption was SO much better! The Race damper is very simple. 3 holes and you can adjust the size of these on top of the fork. Then there is a Shim stack which any oil movement has to go through. Its this that buggered the LSC... So if this makes sense to you, you should be able to see that because all oil movement has to go through the 3 holes, that even without the Shim stack I will have damping.

My theory with this is that because everything had to go through the holes then the shim stack and because the stack is pitiful all it did was screw the low speed as anything slightly high speed opened the shim stack easily.

I have actually been a bit brave and gone into the compression damper and made it so that 2 of the holes still have to go through the shim stack (which I have put back in) and one bypasses the shim stack. My theory is that the one that bypasses the stack acts as a LSC while the other 2 that still go through the shim stack should act as HSC. It does work to some degree but it is hard to tell how well because the shim stack is THIS bad. I want to get some more shims to see if beefing up the shim will beef up the HSC.


What you think? Judging from the Boxxer thread you have a clue about how damping works so your opinion would be nice here!


(EDIT) Had a good look at your link (cheers for that) and it looks like there are dual stack to cater for low and high speed together. This probably works when you have a bigger force (motorbikes are heavy) but I think this approach is less suitable to MTB as to get past any shim would bugger LSC, which is what was happening in my fork stock... I think the bleed (No7 in your link) LSC and Shim HSC like in Team and WC forks work best for low force MTB applications. This is what my Mod it trying to achieve.
flag slidways
Posted: Jun 24, 2013 at 0:25 Quote
I've Only just started learning about shim dampening in the last few days. I'd suggest speaking to one of the suspension gurus floating around here.

As far as I'm aware the 2010 is a single stack, beefing up the shim stack should increase HSC. I'm waiting for someone to get back to me about the effect on LSC in the shim. That link I posted would suggest the base shim is LSC with others say its not so ill see what they say and I'll let you know. But I'm not experienced with shims much at all, just lots of reading over the last few days. See if you can send a pm to Udi.
flag mwilliams
Posted: Jun 24, 2013 at 7:51 Quote
Is it just LSC you want to improve? The problem I had was with the correct spring the fork was too hard over the smaller bumps even with no compression, next spring down the for would bottom out way too easy,
I added a small bleed shim to the middle of the stack and went down to 2.5wt oil and now with 7 clicks on the compression knob the fork feels perfect.
flag slidways
Posted: Jun 24, 2013 at 8:35 Quote
mwilliams wrote:
Is it just LSC you want to improve? The problem I had was with the correct spring the fork was too hard over the smaller bumps even with no compression, next spring down the for would bottom out way too easy,
I added a small bleed shim to the middle of the stack and went down to 2.5wt oil and now with 7 clicks on the compression knob the fork feels perfect.

Is this to me or thegr33k?

If it is for me I need to improve the whole dampening. HSC and LSC. HSC is the main one but LSC needs some work too, for support. The whole fork is too underdampened. To get any reasonable support you needs to up the compression adjusters but this doesn't actually improve support rather than strengthens the point in where the support is enabled. So once the thresholds set by the adjusters opens the fork has no support. End result is a harsh fork that blows through travel.

For now I'm going to address the HSC with the shim, it should help the LSC too from what I have seen. If not ill be looking at LSC orifice and oil weights.

 


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