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Crazy braking idea, but it is possible.

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Crazy braking idea, but it is possible.
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flag sherbet
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:09 Quote
live2ryde wrote:
Id say its a great idea, even though I personaly can moderate my braking.
There are thous times though that I am wieldly out of contol and just slam on the lever and dont think. In that case the ABS could save your life

It wouldn't help any, for the most part. In those instances where you panic, you're normally too screwed to save yourself. That's when tuck and roll comes in handy.
flag Ganyay81
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:13 Quote
sherbet wrote:
live2ryde wrote:
Id say its a great idea, even though I personaly can moderate my braking.
There are thous times though that I am wieldly out of contol and just slam on the lever and dont think. In that case the ABS could save your life

It wouldn't help any, for the most part. In those instances where you panic, you're normally too screwed to save yourself. That's when tuck and roll comes in handy.

Not to mention, ABS doesn't actually keep your wheels from locking up, they just make it so thay don't lock up and stay locked up. The wheels actually have to stop spinning in order for the ABS to kick in. So, if you were in a screw-your-pants-off situation, would you rather have the wheels predictably lock up, and stay locked, or would you rather have them start jerking around?

I know my answer.
flag lilwalters
O+
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:14 Quote
ABS allows you to continue to steer under harsh braking conditions... it's only for that reason... so unless you're locking your front brake of your bike, you can still steer, defeating the need for ABS on a bike...
flag jingo
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:16 Quote
PedalUpBombDown wrote:
lelandjt wrote:
Rally drivers turn off the ABS because a good brake system with sensistive feedback and a skilled operator (like my bike) works better. The only motorcycles that have it are touring bikes made for gapers.
that's true, F1 has a rule that say's "No ABS" in fact, a lot of race cars series have rules that outlaw ABS because of SAFTEY reasons, not performance reasons. why saftey, because humans can brake better and therefore stop faster.
and this is actuali due to the fact that of the speeds they were goin at they are tryin to make it so they have to go slower into corners! in other words corners were gettin to easy for them
flag sherbet
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:17 Quote
jingo wrote:
PedalUpBombDown wrote:
lelandjt wrote:
Rally drivers turn off the ABS because a good brake system with sensistive feedback and a skilled operator (like my bike) works better. The only motorcycles that have it are touring bikes made for gapers.
that's true, F1 has a rule that say's "No ABS" in fact, a lot of race cars series have rules that outlaw ABS because of SAFTEY reasons, not performance reasons. why saftey, because humans can brake better and therefore stop faster.
and this is actuali due to the fact that of the speeds they were goin at they are tryin to make it so they have to go slower into corners! in other words corners were gettin to easy for them

That, coupled with the fact that if an F1 car has locked brakes, even for a fraction of a second, at 200+MPH, it probably won't end too well. These guys know when to brake, how hard, and for how long.
flag jingo
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:21 Quote
sherbet wrote:
jingo wrote:
PedalUpBombDown wrote:

that's true, F1 has a rule that say's "No ABS" in fact, a lot of race cars series have rules that outlaw ABS because of SAFTEY reasons, not performance reasons. why saftey, because humans can brake better and therefore stop faster.
and this is actuali due to the fact that of the speeds they were goin at they are tryin to make it so they have to go slower into corners! in other words corners were gettin to easy for them

That, coupled with the fact that if an F1 car has locked brakes, even for a fraction of a second, at 200+MPH, it probably won't end too well. These guys know when to brake, how hard, and for how long.
they used to be able to slam on the brakes and the abs would let them still corner with out skiding but now they are not aloud =]
flag Wilson4
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:26 Quote
It depends what series, SCCA use to allow it for Corvettes when they were racing the Vipers. Tires would degrade less with ABS. If the wheels locked they created a flat spot, which every time brakes were applied the flatspot would again stop the tire from rotating making the flat spot worse. The then caused vibration and a fear of tire failure. They were used in the Corvettes to help prolong tire wear compared to the much more powerful Vipers who couldn't use it. Formula 1 cars don't use it to improve the racing element. The last couple years they've been using traction control. We never saw passing ou of a corner because everyone would just floor it and not have to worry and that's why it has been re-banned. Drafting and than braking into a corner was the only way to pass. Imagine how hard it would be to pass if everyone could just stomp on the brakes after making their "one" blocking move. Not having driving aids is supposed to making driver errors mean more and the racing more exciting. Bikes shouldn't be point and click either.
flag
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:28 Quote
Floating brake mounts help in braking turns quite a bit. Decoupling your suspension action from your rotor helps modulate the initial bite of the tire as you apply the brake, think of it as a single ABS pulse or "thud".
flag Ganyay81
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:35 Quote
jingo wrote:
sherbet wrote:
jingo wrote:
and this is actuali due to the fact that of the speeds they were goin at they are tryin to make it so they have to go slower into corners! in other words corners were gettin to easy for them

That, coupled with the fact that if an F1 car has locked brakes, even for a fraction of a second, at 200+MPH, it probably won't end too well. These guys know when to brake, how hard, and for how long.
they used to be able to slam on the brakes and the abs would let them still corner with out skiding but now they are not aloud =]

Another note: With the tires they are using on F1 and various top racing series' cars, and the amount of downforce produces have so much friction, the brakes can be, and are often, applied at 100%, but the wheels won't lock up. This is because momentum of the car and the amount of traction is far greater than the amount of friction caused by the pads squeezing the rotors.

I've seen this many times in the American LeMans series. The P1 cars would go around high-speed corners at 150mph, brakes fully applied, and they didn't have any lock-up. This wasn't because of ABS, because they don't use it. They just have so much damned traction that you would never experience on a bike anywhere.
flag Hummeroid
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 19:40 Quote
As a side note to you all, MotoGP has been running traction control for a while (basically same thing as ABS, only for acceleration)


AND ABS has been available on high end touring motorcycles for a while too. (Ducati ST series)

It could be adapted for MTB use, but a hydraulic modulators weight would be more than what all weight weenie racers would want, im sure. You need wheel speed sensors, and also, the computer cant tell if youre in the air and WANT your back brake to lock, or if you are just squeezing the life out of your brakes.

Cool idea, just I dont see it happening.
flag Ganyay81
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 20:13 Quote
Hummeroid wrote:
As a side note to you all, MotoGP has been running traction control for a while (basically same thing as ABS, only for acceleration)


AND ABS has been available on high end touring motorcycles for a while too. (Ducati ST series)

It could be adapted for MTB use, but a hydraulic modulators weight would be more than what all weight weenie racers would want, im sure. You need wheel speed sensors, and also, the computer cant tell if youre in the air and WANT your back brake to lock, or if you are just squeezing the life out of your brakes.

Cool idea, just I dont see it happening.

TCS (Traction Control System) and ABS are totally different ideas, and TCS would be, well, impossible on a bicycle. As for the ABS on a motor bike, that's a bit of a different story. Motorbikes are heavier than bicycles, and have a greater contact patch on the road. Also, like the LeMans cars, their tires are super-soft, and have mounds of traction, this allows them to apply their brakes more without locking them up.

Not to mention they're going 300kmph, and if they lock up a wheel, they're boned. If we fall, we can usually get back up and keep riding.

Also, with keeping the original medium where this topic came from: DH, and to compare w/dirtbike: Motocross bikes don't have ABS, nor do any other sort of dirt bike.
flag Hummeroid
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 20:27 Quote
Ganyay81 wrote:
Hummeroid wrote:
As a side note to you all, MotoGP has been running traction control for a while (basically same thing as ABS, only for acceleration)


AND ABS has been available on high end touring motorcycles for a while too. (Ducati ST series)

It could be adapted for MTB use, but a hydraulic modulators weight would be more than what all weight weenie racers would want, im sure. You need wheel speed sensors, and also, the computer cant tell if youre in the air and WANT your back brake to lock, or if you are just squeezing the life out of your brakes.

Cool idea, just I dont see it happening.

TCS (Traction Control System) and ABS are totally different ideas, and TCS would be, well, impossible on a bicycle. As for the ABS on a motor bike, that's a bit of a different story. Motorbikes are heavier than bicycles, and have a greater contact patch on the road. Also, like the LeMans cars, their tires are super-soft, and have mounds of traction, this allows them to apply their brakes more without locking them up.

Not to mention they're going 300kmph, and if they lock up a wheel, they're boned. If we fall, we can usually get back up and keep riding.

Also, with keeping the original medium where this topic came from: DH, and to compare w/dirtbike: Motocross bikes don't have ABS, nor do any other sort of dirt bike.

Theyre a very similar idea. Both systems are designed to what, avoid a loss of traction. One is for accel, one for decel. Yes theyre different systems, but I was illustrating a point that these TYPES of systems are available for 2 wheeled vehicles. OBVIOUSLY an MTB doesnt need traction control. Both systems rely on the same input parameters to an ECU, and (on some vehicles) use the braking system to achieve the desired result.
flag Ganyay81
Posted: Feb 15, 2008 at 20:36 Quote
Hummeroid wrote:
Ganyay81 wrote:
Hummeroid wrote:
As a side note to you all, MotoGP has been running traction control for a while (basically same thing as ABS, only for acceleration)


AND ABS has been available on high end touring motorcycles for a while too. (Ducati ST series)

It could be adapted for MTB use, but a hydraulic modulators weight would be more than what all weight weenie racers would want, im sure. You need wheel speed sensors, and also, the computer cant tell if youre in the air and WANT your back brake to lock, or if you are just squeezing the life out of your brakes.

Cool idea, just I dont see it happening.

TCS (Traction Control System) and ABS are totally different ideas, and TCS would be, well, impossible on a bicycle. As for the ABS on a motor bike, that's a bit of a different story. Motorbikes are heavier than bicycles, and have a greater contact patch on the road. Also, like the LeMans cars, their tires are super-soft, and have mounds of traction, this allows them to apply their brakes more without locking them up.

Not to mention they're going 300kmph, and if they lock up a wheel, they're boned. If we fall, we can usually get back up and keep riding.

Also, with keeping the original medium where this topic came from: DH, and to compare w/dirtbike: Motocross bikes don't have ABS, nor do any other sort of dirt bike.

Theyre a very similar idea. Both systems are designed to what, avoid a loss of traction. One is for accel, one for decel. Yes theyre different systems, but I was illustrating a point that these TYPES of systems are available for 2 wheeled vehicles. OBVIOUSLY an MTB doesnt need traction control. Both systems rely on the same input parameters to an ECU, and (on some vehicles) use the braking system to achieve the desired result.

I gotcha. Didn't mean to burst your bubble.
flag MadMike2007
Posted: Feb 16, 2008 at 9:59 Quote
I hate it when I get invited to a thread and miss all the conversation. But here's my 2 cents:

When I'm racing to the bottom of a hill I want to know I can push my brakes to locking point, but not beyond. I can see what my front tyre is about to hit, and I know how my tyres will react. Having a computer that only knows a set amount of traction, which will always be before locking - otherwise it's useless, simply means I will never achieve full braking performance before the computer takes over.

Since I've already lost braking performance, my idea of a more simple, reliable and lighter solution would be a pressure sensitive dump valve. So if you pull the lever to a certain point, creating a certain pressure, the hydraulic oil will simply move cylinder rather than over pushing the pistons. However being as unpredictable as the terrain is offroad, this is never going to be implementable.

On road though, where the grip is dependent only on weather, tyres and a small variation in road surface it might be workable. But for the cost of using such a system, I'd rather keep the skill and the rider input, and ultimately fun factor that comes from pushing your own ability to control the brakes to the limit.

I personally often use only the front brake, holding the rear wheel slightly off the ground, which is ultimate power. If I lock up, my weight instinctively is shifted rearwards, the front brake released and the rear brake pulled, then easing the front brake back on. I'm sure most riders will agree that this is only instinct.

As for the rear tyre wearing down, is it $30-40 for a new rear tyre, or $200 to implement the ABS?
flag Ganyay81
Posted: Feb 16, 2008 at 12:53 Quote
MadMike2007 wrote:

I personally often use only the front brake, holding the rear wheel slightly off the ground, which is ultimate power. If I lock up, my weight instinctively is shifted rearwards, the front brake released and the rear brake pulled, then easing the front brake back on. I'm sure most riders will agree that this is only instinct.

I ride XC, so I don't really have much to say about braking technique in DH, but when I'm braking, I usually use A LOT of front brake, and give as much rear brake as possible without locking up. From there, I just modulate the front brake to keep it from locking up, but if the rear locks up, it's not so much of a big deal. I also shift my weight as far back as possible to keep the front from washing out, and the rear from losing traction. Doing this, I can stop in mere feet.

 


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