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2017 remedy full floater too linear so....Megneg?

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2017 remedy full floater too linear so....Megneg?
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flag shockwave
Posted: Apr 5, 2020 at 15:32 Quote
BermBlastin wrote:
Thanks for the input!! Have either of you run it without the megneg? Just wondering how much of a difference it makes?

I did run it without it. For me, the biggest difference is the support that it provides. At 33% sag in the past, I would bottom out constantly. Now, I have way more support. I can do some rides now and not use all the travel. But on G out, it will get there. It feels a little more lively like a coil. It depends what you are looking for.

Personally, the best upgrade that I did, is the Tractive upgrade from Vorsprung.
flag BermBlastin
O+
Posted: Apr 6, 2020 at 16:48 Quote
I made a few pictures of the project (link to album below)... I ended up having a buddy put the existing bottom hardware on a lathe and cut it down... I might eventually replace them with a single piece bushing on each side... you want to make sure you have a decent amount of force on the inner race of the bottom shock bearings, this ensures that the bearing rotates with the shock as it is designed. I did use the dust seals that came with the new shock, so there are 3 individual pieces on each side of the shock. If you have any questions please let me know...

Do you guys have the Debonair canister?

photo
flag XDeltaFactor
Posted: May 31, 2020 at 4:39 Quote
For those wondering.

The Remedy's progressivity is around 24%, a little more for the newer models (~25%), it's not linear as you may think it is. Compared to other bikes, it's right smack in the middle but not overly progressive (like a YT Capra).

The MegNeg is a nice option for Rockshox Deluxe/SD users (incl. Trek shocks) because it's the first product I know of that allows you to tune the negative chamber to actually help the shock curve where it matters where tokens often failed to do alone.

First, for those concerned about not being able to use all the travel, it's not anything worth worrying about. Professional riders don't go to their mechanics complaining about how their suspension doesn't use all the travel for every single run.

In perspective, when you drive your car to go to work, school or do errands, should the car's suspension use all of its travel every time you take car out for a spin? No, that's silly. If I had a car tuned like that I'd suspect that the shocks are blown and/or the springs are worn and need replacing. The same applies to your bike.

What matters is getting the suspension to do the best work where it's good at, for the terrain and speed you're riding.

MTB suspension is often divided into 3 zones.

1. Initial stroke
2. Mid stroke
3. End stroke

Most riders spend the majority of their riding in the first 2 zones. Initial stroke to help erase some of the small chatter (this is further improved if you're using a Super Deluxe). The mid stroke takes care of medium sized jumps, dealing with berms on the descents, and repeat hits like going through a web of roots and rocks.

The bike's job is not to use the end stroke portion when there's no need to and tuning your bike to go that deep in the suspension unnecessarily can make things worse in terms of ride speed (if you're racing against the clock) or ride quality.

If you understand mechanical advantage, it's all about leverage. The Remedy is progressive, however that also means that the leverage ratio decreases as you move through the travel. This makes the frame more resistant to movement as it goes deeper into the travel. The leverage the bike has to soak up hits at the first 30mm of travel is very high, and the leverage at the end of the travel is much lower.

When you tune a bike to go deeper into the travel, it becomes less active because it has less leverage to work with. This makes the bike feel unusually firm and unable to deal with varying terrain because you're making the suspension try to work where it's least active.

Where most riding should be tuned is at the mid stroke, however air shocks in general are very weak in this zone compared to a coil spring.

What about the fact that you can't use much of the end stroke? The reality is, some trails and riding styles may not use that part of your shock's stroke and there's no need to.

The only reason I would be concerned about the travel is only when you feel that you're riding too high on the shock's travel overall.

One of the things you can do is try different sag points. For example...

I'm 165 pounds with max gear for long rides, 162 for shorter rides. I used to use 4 bands with no tokens with 30% sag and although I could use more of the travel, the bike felt like it was sitting deeper than I'd like to really rail the corner berms going down.

Going with 2 or 3 bands felt better but using 30% sag made the shock too hard to deal with going deeper into the mid stroke.

I realized that when I increased the negative volume (removing bands), I had to consider lowering the positive chamber pressure, which meant going a little deeper into the sag.

Now I'm at 0 tokens and 2 bands, ~32% sag and it's keeping the back end up where I like it and have loads of end stroke room just in case I do something really stupid. The bike has more leverage when it's a little higher in the stroke and it's much more active than what it can do sitting 5-8mm deeper into the stroke (where the leverage is less). The bike feels more compliant and tracks a lot better.

Remember, it's not how much travel you use, it's more about what the suspension is doing at a particular stroke depth.

From there, you can fine tune your rebound and compression damping to get the behavior you're looking for.

2018 Remedy 9.8
160mm Lyrik, RC2 damper (2.0), 2021 Debonair C1 spring kit upgrade, DSD Runt, 50/105psi
150mm Super Deluxe RC3, MegNeg, 2 bands 0 tokens, 32% sag
flag shockwave
Posted: May 31, 2020 at 4:59 Quote
XDeltaFactor wrote:
For those wondering.

The Remedy's progressivity is around 24%, a little more for the newer models (~25%), it's not linear as you may think it is. Compared to other bikes, it's right smack in the middle but not overly progressive (like a YT Capra).

The MegNeg is a nice option for Rockshox Deluxe/SD users (incl. Trek shocks) because it's the first product I know of that allows you to tune the negative chamber to actually help the shock curve where it matters where tokens often failed to do alone.

First, for those concerned about not being able to use all the travel, it's not anything worth worrying about. Professional riders don't go to their mechanics complaining about how their suspension doesn't use all the travel for every single run.

In perspective, when you drive your car to go to work, school or do errands, should the car's suspension use all of its travel every time you take car out for a spin? No, that's silly. If I had a car tuned like that I'd suspect that the shocks are blown and/or the springs are worn and need replacing. The same applies to your bike.

What matters is getting the suspension to do the best work where it's good at, for the terrain and speed you're riding.

MTB suspension is often divided into 3 zones.

1. Initial stroke
2. Mid stroke
3. End stroke

Most riders spend the majority of their riding in the first 2 zones. Initial stroke to help erase some of the small chatter (this is further improved if you're using a Super Deluxe). The mid stroke takes care of medium sized jumps, dealing with berms on the descents, and repeat hits like going through a web of roots and rocks.

The bike's job is not to use the end stroke portion when there's no need to and tuning your bike to go that deep in the suspension unnecessarily can make things worse in terms of ride speed (if you're racing against the clock) or ride quality.

If you understand mechanical advantage, it's all about leverage. The Remedy is progressive, however that also means that the leverage ratio decreases as you move through the travel. This makes the frame more resistant to movement as it goes deeper into the travel. The leverage the bike has to soak up hits at the first 30mm of travel is very high, and the leverage at the end of the travel is much lower.

When you tune a bike to go deeper into the travel, it becomes less active because it has less leverage to work with. This makes the bike feel unusually firm and unable to deal with varying terrain because you're making the suspension try to work where it's least active.

Where most riding should be tuned is at the mid stroke, however air shocks in general are very weak in this zone compared to a coil spring.

What about the fact that you can't use much of the end stroke? The reality is, some trails and riding styles may not use that part of your shock's stroke and there's no need to.

The only reason I would be concerned about the travel is only when you feel that you're riding too high on the shock's travel overall.

One of the things you can do is try different sag points. For example...

I'm 165 pounds with max gear for long rides, 162 for shorter rides. I used to use 4 bands with no tokens with 30% sag and although I could use more of the travel, the bike felt like it was sitting deeper than I'd like to really rail the corner berms going down.

Going with 2 or 3 bands felt better but using 30% sag made the shock too hard to deal with going deeper into the mid stroke.

I realized that when I increased the negative volume (removing bands), I had to consider lowering the positive chamber pressure, which meant going a little deeper into the sag.

Now I'm at 0 tokens and 2 bands, ~32% sag and it's keeping the back end up where I like it and have loads of end stroke room just in case I do something really stupid. The bike has more leverage when it's a little higher in the stroke and it's much more active than what it can do sitting 5-8mm deeper into the stroke (where the leverage is less). The bike feels more compliant and tracks a lot better.

Remember, it's not how much travel you use, it's more about what the suspension is doing at a particular stroke depth.

From there, you can fine tune your rebound and compression damping to get the behavior you're looking for.

2018 Remedy 9.8
160mm Lyrik, RC2 damper (2.0), 2021 Debonair C1 spring kit upgrade, DSD Runt, 50/105psi
150mm Super Deluxe RC3, MegNeg, 2 bands 0 tokens, 32% sag

Excellent production. You got me curious now to do more test.

I am at 4 bands and 33%

I will try again at 2 bands 33% to really feel the difference.

Thanks for your input.
flag shockwave
Posted: May 31, 2020 at 5:18 Quote
shockwave wrote:
XDeltaFactor wrote:
For those wondering.

The Remedy's progressivity is around 24%, a little more for the newer models (~25%), it's not linear as you may think it is. Compared to other bikes, it's right smack in the middle but not overly progressive (like a YT Capra).

The MegNeg is a nice option for Rockshox Deluxe/SD users (incl. Trek shocks) because it's the first product I know of that allows you to tune the negative chamber to actually help the shock curve where it matters where tokens often failed to do alone.

First, for those concerned about not being able to use all the travel, it's not anything worth worrying about. Professional riders don't go to their mechanics complaining about how their suspension doesn't use all the travel for every single run.

In perspective, when you drive your car to go to work, school or do errands, should the car's suspension use all of its travel every time you take car out for a spin? No, that's silly. If I had a car tuned like that I'd suspect that the shocks are blown and/or the springs are worn and need replacing. The same applies to your bike.

What matters is getting the suspension to do the best work where it's good at, for the terrain and speed you're riding.

MTB suspension is often divided into 3 zones.

1. Initial stroke
2. Mid stroke
3. End stroke

Most riders spend the majority of their riding in the first 2 zones. Initial stroke to help erase some of the small chatter (this is further improved if you're using a Super Deluxe). The mid stroke takes care of medium sized jumps, dealing with berms on the descents, and repeat hits like going through a web of roots and rocks.

The bike's job is not to use the end stroke portion when there's no need to and tuning your bike to go that deep in the suspension unnecessarily can make things worse in terms of ride speed (if you're racing against the clock) or ride quality.

If you understand mechanical advantage, it's all about leverage. The Remedy is progressive, however that also means that the leverage ratio decreases as you move through the travel. This makes the frame more resistant to movement as it goes deeper into the travel. The leverage the bike has to soak up hits at the first 30mm of travel is very high, and the leverage at the end of the travel is much lower.

When you tune a bike to go deeper into the travel, it becomes less active because it has less leverage to work with. This makes the bike feel unusually firm and unable to deal with varying terrain because you're making the suspension try to work where it's least active.

Where most riding should be tuned is at the mid stroke, however air shocks in general are very weak in this zone compared to a coil spring.

What about the fact that you can't use much of the end stroke? The reality is, some trails and riding styles may not use that part of your shock's stroke and there's no need to.

The only reason I would be concerned about the travel is only when you feel that you're riding too high on the shock's travel overall.

One of the things you can do is try different sag points. For example...

I'm 165 pounds with max gear for long rides, 162 for shorter rides. I used to use 4 bands with no tokens with 30% sag and although I could use more of the travel, the bike felt like it was sitting deeper than I'd like to really rail the corner berms going down.

Going with 2 or 3 bands felt better but using 30% sag made the shock too hard to deal with going deeper into the mid stroke.

I realized that when I increased the negative volume (removing bands), I had to consider lowering the positive chamber pressure, which meant going a little deeper into the sag.

Now I'm at 0 tokens and 2 bands, ~32% sag and it's keeping the back end up where I like it and have loads of end stroke room just in case I do something really stupid. The bike has more leverage when it's a little higher in the stroke and it's much more active than what it can do sitting 5-8mm deeper into the stroke (where the leverage is less). The bike feels more compliant and tracks a lot better.

Remember, it's not how much travel you use, it's more about what the suspension is doing at a particular stroke depth.

From there, you can fine tune your rebound and compression damping to get the behavior you're looking for.

2018 Remedy 9.8
160mm Lyrik, RC2 damper (2.0), 2021 Debonair C1 spring kit upgrade, DSD Runt, 50/105psi
150mm Super Deluxe RC3, MegNeg, 2 bands 0 tokens, 32% sag

Excellent production. You got me curious now to do more test. The only parts that I don't fully agree with you is when comparing our bike to a car. Our bike should be compared more with motocross, trophy truck or pre runner. Those machines do get to used full travel very often. But that is just my opinion. Not to start a confrontation of any sort.

I am at 4 bands and 33%

I will try again at 2 bands 33% to really feel the difference.

Thanks for your input.
flag XDeltaFactor
Posted: May 31, 2020 at 12:35 Quote
How much do you weigh?
flag shockwave
Posted: May 31, 2020 at 16:08 Quote
XDeltaFactor wrote:
How much do you weigh?

225lbs
flag XDeltaFactor
Posted: May 31, 2020 at 17:46 Quote
shockwave wrote:
XDeltaFactor wrote:
How much do you weigh?

225lbs

I think 4 bands at 33% is too much for that weight. I find that 4 bands at 30% felt better for me and I have 60 pounds less body weight on average.

The full floater Remedy's tend to go deeper into the stroke (the mid stroke portion is wider than the newer Remedy) so I had to add more air to help keep the rear from going too far down the stroke while riding.

The MegNeg needs time to find the right settings and many online bike reviews don't tell readers that it's okay to test different sag points. The myth is that sag points are absolute in that only one sag point as a percentage is correct for all types of shocks and shock varieties, this is clearly false.

For example I wouldn't be surprised if you tested by removing all the bands, pump it up to 35% sag and went riding. If the mid stroke felt too firm, then I'd start by adding a band and use 2-3 more psi more and re-test.

The one thing I'll mention is if you're trying to do this on a Trek RE:Activ shock. Because it has a regressive damper (it wants to remain stiff until a force is strong enough to pop open the oil valve), this characteristic goes against what the air spring side is trying to do (which is to start off soft and firms up along the way).

In that case, I'd start by going deeper into the travel a little more. At Trek's recommended 28% sag point, what will happen is when you ride over repeated hits, it's going to feel like it's bucking you because the regressive damper can't make up its mind between allowing oil to pass through and closing the valve making the shock firm-soft-firm-soft, etc.

To counter this I would start by not going less than 32-33% sag. For a MegNeg with no bands, I'd even consider trying sag around 37-38%.
flag Dustin3095
Posted: Aug 16, 2020 at 15:03 Quote
nambyrob wrote:
BermBlastin wrote:
You’re right... The top mount was fine but the bottom mounting hardware I had to get machined down because the super deluxe damper shaft eyelet was wider than the deluxe and also had a different diameter because of the bottom bearings. I currently don’t have the megneg but I’m going to see how it rides without it, I’m mostly riding jumpy single track

Hey BermBlastin, I'm looking at getting a Super Deluxe from a SC Megatower atm to replace my standard deluxe (Reaktiv) but had no idea how I'd get the bottom bearing mount to fit my 2019 Remedy 8. Have you got any pics or more details on the machining that fixed yours?

I made this swap on a 2018 Trek Fuel EX8. Went from the Fox DPS Reaktiv to a Rockshox super deluxe select + and it was a game changer!! In every aspect, the shock was better. I could lean the bike over and rail corners where I previously couldn’t, due to lack of traction concerns. Everything was much more supple. My confidence went through the roof! I did notice slight peddle bob moving away from the Reaktiv to the SD, but it was more than worth losing a bit of peddling efficiency for the benefits gained.
I bought my super deluxe off Pinkbike, it was a take off from a Santa Cruz. My local bike shop was able to order a damper specific to my fuel to make it fit. 50ish dollars for the part and 150$ for a “rebuild/install.”
All in all, I got the shock with install for around 450$
I now have a 2018 Remedy 9.8 and will be doing the same whenever I get the funds. Once you’ve ridden a super deluxe, the stock RT3 just feels like garbage.
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