Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 11:55 Quote
Damn, two inches of growth from sag... that's wild. I bet that things fun as hell in really rough shit.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 12:23 Quote
mtbman1980 wrote:
you shouldn't worry too much what the length is at full travel as you will only really be there when the added stability is needed.

The sagged length would be more important for general handling traits.

Most non high piviot bikes shorten or stay roughly the same on compression.
Very good points, thanks for the insight!

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 12:24 Quote
connerkuhns wrote:


Here's my semi weight weenie ish bike.. Save for the fork and dropper, all the parts came from the Enduro I had. Currently it sits at about 29lbs with XTR trail pedals and a carbon bottle cage.

A few things I've got in mind to try to drop a bit of weight.. The wheels are Nobl TR36 rims, DT Aerolite spokes, 240s front hub and Onyx Vesper rear hub. While the Onyx is cool for the silence factor, the feel of it when climbing steeper stuff is not awesome at all, so I'm rebuilding the wheel this weekend with a 240s, this should drop about 175g from the rear wheel, should make the wheelset 1600g!

The Enve M7 bar and Raceface stem aren't too bad, but I may end up switching them for a Enve M6 cockpit which should drop a little weight.

Crank wise, I've got the OEM only X1 carbon cranks, kinda debating going for some XX1's, which in theory should drop about 150g.

That's about where I'm at with it at the moment, all in all, it's a very well rounded bike, feels awesome compared to the 34lb Enduro I was riding previously!

I'm kinda surprised its at 29lbs. If I had to guess on this bike I'd say 28lbs tops.

That's a 34 up front, right?

You running inserts?

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 12:38 Quote
PHeller wrote:
connerkuhns wrote:


Here's my semi weight weenie ish bike.. Save for the fork and dropper, all the parts came from the Enduro I had. Currently it sits at about 29lbs with XTR trail pedals and a carbon bottle cage.

A few things I've got in mind to try to drop a bit of weight.. The wheels are Nobl TR36 rims, DT Aerolite spokes, 240s front hub and Onyx Vesper rear hub. While the Onyx is cool for the silence factor, the feel of it when climbing steeper stuff is not awesome at all, so I'm rebuilding the wheel this weekend with a 240s, this should drop about 175g from the rear wheel, should make the wheelset 1600g!

The Enve M7 bar and Raceface stem aren't too bad, but I may end up switching them for a Enve M6 cockpit which should drop a little weight.

Crank wise, I've got the OEM only X1 carbon cranks, kinda debating going for some XX1's, which in theory should drop about 150g.

That's about where I'm at with it at the moment, all in all, it's a very well rounded bike, feels awesome compared to the 34lb Enduro I was riding previously!

I'm kinda surprised its at 29lbs. If I had to guess on this bike I'd say 28lbs tops.

That's a 34 up front, right?

You running inserts?

That Vesper hub doesn't help, almost twice as heavy as a 240.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 12:46 Quote
PHeller wrote:
connerkuhns wrote:


Here's my semi weight weenie ish bike.. Save for the fork and dropper, all the parts came from the Enduro I had. Currently it sits at about 29lbs with XTR trail pedals and a carbon bottle cage.

A few things I've got in mind to try to drop a bit of weight.. The wheels are Nobl TR36 rims, DT Aerolite spokes, 240s front hub and Onyx Vesper rear hub. While the Onyx is cool for the silence factor, the feel of it when climbing steeper stuff is not awesome at all, so I'm rebuilding the wheel this weekend with a 240s, this should drop about 175g from the rear wheel, should make the wheelset 1600g!

The Enve M7 bar and Raceface stem aren't too bad, but I may end up switching them for a Enve M6 cockpit which should drop a little weight.

Crank wise, I've got the OEM only X1 carbon cranks, kinda debating going for some XX1's, which in theory should drop about 150g.

That's about where I'm at with it at the moment, all in all, it's a very well rounded bike, feels awesome compared to the 34lb Enduro I was riding previously!

I'm kinda surprised its at 29lbs. If I had to guess on this bike I'd say 28lbs tops.

That's a 34 up front, right?

You running inserts?

Yes, that's a 34. It's the S5 which adds a touch, 200mm Transfer post ain't that light either. Onyx hubs are stupid heavy. the Grid Trail casing tires aren't the lightest either.

With different cranks, rear hub and cockpit I think it'll be right on 28lbs.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 14:14 Quote
scotteh,

Keep in mind that the bottomed-out chainstay length is not something you would frequently experience. You don't bottom out your suspension when hopping and popping around. The length at, maybe, 50% travel would better represent the average length during a hop / pop event. It's more relevant to use a consistent proportion of the travel, rather than a consistent absolute value.

It also depends how much front travel is being assumed during the rear compression. On your Glory, the difference between assuming rear-only compression (pitch) and symmetrical compression (heave) is 29 mm, which completely skews our entire conversation on the subject. If the front and rear travel isn't equal, there's also the option to hold the front triangle static and compress only the rear; this produces numbers similar to heave compression, but slightly different.

Note that the chainstay length for the Commencal is 430 mm static, according to Commencal's website. Not sure of the source for 457 mm.

Despite my misgivings about using bottomed-out geometry, below are the bottomed-out numbers you asked for. These numbers assume compression in heave (full compression at both ends) and assume my models are correct. Glory model isn't great, Kavenz is very good, and Commencal is pretty good.

Giant Glory (2019): 428.5 mm, Δ -10.5 mm
Kavenz VHP16 (2020): 436.4 mm, Δ +11.4 mm
Commencal DH29 (2021): 454.9 mm, Δ +35 mm

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 14:18 Quote
sub 30 ftw, dt are mega hubs! i run red cap finishline lube in my star rachet, in cold weather the dt grease is a bit thick. check weareone dapackage if your shopping bar/stems too


connerkuhns wrote:
Bike
Bike


Here's my semi weight weenie ish bike.. Save for the fork and dropper, all the parts came from the Enduro I had. Currently it sits at about 29lbs with XTR trail pedals and a carbon bottle cage.

A few things I've got in mind to try to drop a bit of weight.. The wheels are Nobl TR36 rims, DT Aerolite spokes, 240s front hub and Onyx Vesper rear hub. While the Onyx is cool for the silence factor, the feel of it when climbing steeper stuff is not awesome at all, so I'm rebuilding the wheel this weekend with a 240s, this should drop about 175g from the rear wheel, should make the wheelset 1600g!

The Enve M7 bar and Raceface stem aren't too bad, but I may end up switching them for a Enve M6 cockpit which should drop a little weight.

Crank wise, I've got the OEM only X1 carbon cranks, kinda debating going for some XX1's, which in theory should drop about 150g.

That's about where I'm at with it at the moment, all in all, it's a very well rounded bike, feels awesome compared to the 34lb Enduro I was riding previously!

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 14:27 Quote
lifted-d wrote:
sub 30 ftw, dt are mega hubs! i run red cap finishline lube in my star rachet, in cold weather the dt grease is a bit thick. check weareone dapackage if your shopping bar/stems too


connerkuhns wrote:
Bike
Bike


Here's my semi weight weenie ish bike.. Save for the fork and dropper, all the parts came from the Enduro I had. Currently it sits at about 29lbs with XTR trail pedals and a carbon bottle cage.

A few things I've got in mind to try to drop a bit of weight.. The wheels are Nobl TR36 rims, DT Aerolite spokes, 240s front hub and Onyx Vesper rear hub. While the Onyx is cool for the silence factor, the feel of it when climbing steeper stuff is not awesome at all, so I'm rebuilding the wheel this weekend with a 240s, this should drop about 175g from the rear wheel, should make the wheelset 1600g!

The Enve M7 bar and Raceface stem aren't too bad, but I may end up switching them for a Enve M6 cockpit which should drop a little weight.

Crank wise, I've got the OEM only X1 carbon cranks, kinda debating going for some XX1's, which in theory should drop about 150g.

That's about where I'm at with it at the moment, all in all, it's a very well rounded bike, feels awesome compared to the 34lb Enduro I was riding previously!


Yeah, the I planned on building the wheels with DT hubs from the beginning, but decided to try the Onyx rear hub.

For what I pay and what's in stock, the Enve bar/stem isn't too much more money, and is twice the weight savings as the We Are One combo.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 14:44 Quote
What issue did you have with the Onyx hub? Does the Onyx have a kind of soft engagement? I built a clutch hub a few years ago and noticed that. Kinda seemed to negate any quick engagement benefit to me.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 14:47 Quote
Arnoodles wrote:
What issue did you have with the Onyx hub? Does the Onyx have a kind of soft engagement? I built a clutch hub a few years ago and noticed that. Kinda seemed to negate any quick engagement benefit to me.

It does have a soft engagement which is something I really like. When I get on my other bike it feels a bit rough or clunky now.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 14:55 Quote
Arnoodles wrote:
What issue did you have with the Onyx hub? Does the Onyx have a kind of soft engagement? I built a clutch hub a few years ago and noticed that. Kinda seemed to negate any quick engagement benefit to me.

The soft engagement is what I don't like. It's not much of an issue at higher speeds, but on steep climbs, it feels horrible. The silence and lack of drag is awesome, but yeah, the soft feel can sometimes negate the instant engagement.

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 16:10 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
scotteh,

Keep in mind that the bottomed-out chainstay length is not something you would frequently experience. You don't bottom out your suspension when hopping and popping around. The length at, maybe, 50% travel would better represent the average length during a hop / pop event. It's more relevant to use a consistent proportion of the travel, rather than a consistent absolute value.

It also depends how much front travel is being assumed during the rear compression. On your Glory, the difference between assuming rear-only compression (pitch) and symmetrical compression (heave) is 29 mm, which completely skews our entire conversation on the subject. If the front and rear travel isn't equal, there's also the option to hold the front triangle static and compress only the rear; this produces numbers similar to heave compression, but slightly different.

Note that the chainstay length for the Commencal is 430 mm static, according to Commencal's website. Not sure of the source for 457 mm.

Despite my misgivings about using bottomed-out geometry, below are the bottomed-out numbers you asked for. These numbers assume compression in heave (full compression at both ends) and assume my models are correct. Glory model isn't great, Kavenz is very good, and Commencal is pretty good.

Giant Glory (2019): 428.5 mm, Δ -10.5 mm
Kavenz VHP16 (2020): 436.4 mm, Δ +11.4 mm
Commencal DH29 (2021): 454.9 mm, Δ +35 mm
Very informative, thank you!

What you are saying about the hop/pop event makes sense. It sounds like the takeaway here is the effect of the rearward axle path/longer chainstay when hopping around may not be as noticeable as it might seem based on the increased length in heave. As always, it's probably best to get out and actually ride these things rather than speculating based on geo charts! I imagine that for the average rider, rebound speed plays as large a part as axle path in determining how poppy/playful a bike feels.

The numbers I was using for the Supreme's chainstay length came from the recent DH bike week review, where the author noted the actual measurements differed significantly from the manufacturer's stated geometry. Interesting that your model says the Kavenz is +11/436mm in heave, as that is what the VHP16 review said it was at sag. Quite frankly, I'm more inclined to trust your numbers lol .

Posted: Feb 23, 2021 at 16:43 Quote
My models use manufacturers' data to calibrate the length of the various frame elements. i.e. I have to take their word on it as a starting point if I don't have the actual bike to measure.

If Dan measured the bike - especially if he used that 3D scanner - then his starting values are likely accurate. We could use his chainstay length to calibrate my model. If the chainstay length at full droop (topped out) really is 457, then you can scale my Commencal numbers by a factor of (457 / 430), which is 1.063.

Again, I assumed full compression at both ends. If Giacomo modeled his VHP16 at sag with, say, 30% rear compression and 20% front, the Δ is +12.2 mm. The numbers can be compared only if the orientation of the bikes is consistent.

This is like when a journalist cites anti-squat numbers. I'm going to call out Mike Kazimer, as he's more keen than average to cite tech stats, yet less keen than average to question how the measurement was taken; he's certainly not the only journalist to do this, though. Depending on the chosen location for the rider's centre of mass, the sag, and - most importantly - the sprocket combination, the same bike could have 50% anti-squat or 300% anti-squat.

As I said, numbers can be compared only if the the methodology is consistent.

Posted: 3 days ago Quote
If the weights are accurate, it'll be the lightest 120mm fork...errr..front suspender on the market.


 
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