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Are bikes really worth that much $

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Are bikes really worth that much $
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flag Jwmbike14
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 22:59 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
actually i am going to school to be an engineer right now, so yes i have used CAD. i actually am pretty good with it (compared to the rest of my class).

alright cool, autodesk? solid works?

if so. you'd know that even while using these systems it is still infact, VERY hard to create and fine tune a full suspension mountainbike, that will withstand the needs of the riders that push the limits everyday. low weight, high strength, good geometry, nice pedaling platform, minimal brake jack, minimal pedal kickback.

there is sooo much to look over. and to create a bicycle that meets all your demands takes a lot of power (by power i mean, education, money, computers, everything!!)

i;ve been working with autodesk programs. and a little solidworks. so far i'm pretty fluent in Autodesk AutoCAD, and Autodesk, Inventor, which allows you to use such tools as dynamic simulation, even go as far as stress analysis in which you must enter material properties.

i have been working on a frame design for 2 years, and been working with CAD programs for 3.

now. if you truely work with these you would know that infact, it takes quite a bit of money to have these programs. and a fairly decent computer with the processing power to run it. soo computer and programs is easily $12,000, lets throw in a colelge mechanical engineering degree 60,000 (if not more) and now throw in the cost of the first two prototypes, a salaray for both engineer, prototype frame builder, materials on both prototype frames, multiple component groupo testings. multiple shock, and shock valving tests. then the design center (make it look pretty) then set up a factory to build the bike and all the fancy CNC and crap. then the materials labor and overhead to run that facility. now ship it all back to the US. and to dealers.

in society today everything we do relies on other technology. we wouldn;t have these bike's if not for advancements in Computers. its a cycle.

and after looking over all that. i would say bicycle prices are very reasonable
flag Jwmbike14
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 23:02 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
yes you are completely right with the iphone example. they are probably made very cheap.

that doesn't mean they have less technology involved than a downhill bike though.

yes you are right. but its an outrageous cost to pay for something so minimal right? i mean it can;t even mke you fly!

okay but seriously now. we are paying 700 for a musicplayer/phone which of course has plenty of technology.

but you can't compare that technology to a bicycle. its completely different.
flag Jwmbike14
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 23:06 Quote
norcorulz wrote:
try make an original design on it then, and make it work, then make a prototype and ride it
do you have any idea how many prototype bikes it takes to make a dual suspension bike work?

+1 thanks man!

thats exactly my point!

i am on my way to an engineering degree. but no where close yet.

i have been working on a design, that i feel has a lot of potential, for 2 years. but i am constantly changing things trying to find a good design that has minimal pedal bob, brake jack, pedal kickback, yet very plush and progressive.

and then when im finally ready and happy with it. im looking at spending at least 3 grand to have the frame made in steel for a first prototype. then another for a 2nd prototype (with whatever changes i may make) then whatever would come next!

people just don;t realize how much it takes!
flag max-tooltime-imus5
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 23:08 Quote
i have used autocad and cadopia.

i have tried to create a bike, and it was extremely difficult to put together the way i wanted. i gave up.

but im still not sure your point stands.

an artist may make work that no one else in the world can. so does mean that it is work millions? no necessarily.
flag yo13bo
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 23:12 Quote
Jwmbike14 wrote:
norcorulz wrote:
try make an original design on it then, and make it work, then make a prototype and ride it
do you have any idea how many prototype bikes it takes to make a dual suspension bike work?

+1 thanks man!

thats exactly my point!

i am on my way to an engineering degree. but no where close yet.

i have been working on a design, that i feel has a lot of potential, for 2 years. but i am constantly changing things trying to find a good design that has minimal pedal bob, brake jack, pedal kickback, yet very plush and progressive.

and then when im finally ready and happy with it. im looking at spending at least 3 grand to have the frame made in steel for a first prototype. then another for a 2nd prototype (with whatever changes i may make) then whatever would come next!

people just don;t realize how much it takes!
2 years. wow
i knew it would take a long time but damn, didnt realise it would be that long, i expected about a year, ill stick to designing hardtails for now Razz
i have a few small designs that to would like to make (not in my albums) but i simply cant afford to even make one prototype, no one i know can weld properly, dont really know all the necessary tube diameters, dropout designs, even .5 degree in head angle can be enough to make your bike a bit too slack for street riding so you really need to know your stuff
flag Jwmbike14
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 23:22 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
i have used autocad and cadopia.

i have tried to create a bike, and it was extremely difficult to put together the way i wanted. i gave up.

but im still not sure your point stands.

an artist may make work that no one else in the world can. so does mean that it is work millions? no necessarily.

well. quite possibly yes. im not sure what this has to do with the bikes being worth the money we pay argument. buuuut
to answer your questions. are Pacaso's paintings really worht millions? or are they simply drawing of people with eyes on their torso instead of face? no one else made painting like him. and they turned out to be millions!

but anyways... so basically your saying your not fluent enough to build a frame. not to mention make it work in a dynamic simulation program. correct? now lets try to figure out rates. and different rates throughout the travel. next lets find the correct pivot locations/distance between pivots (because this all changes the bike COMPLETELY). next lets find a shock with the right valving, if not then re valve it to your specifications.

this requires EDUCATION. and the education it takes to do it has a steep price tag.


all im simply saying about the price of the bike. is that its well worth it. after designing costs. materials. and manufactruing. they very well meet the price tag


CNC'd links? try and go to a machine shop and pay someone to draw up, and then CNC a link for you! its expensive!


aluminum? insanely expensive! not to mention Easton tubing. or any other huge tubing manufacturers. hydro fromed tubing? the cost? material? equipment? the strength and design? (because believe it or not... different shapes have different strength characteristics! who woulda known?!)

and that is just talking about frame manufacturing. not to mention ceramic bearings in wheels. sealed bearings in Kings. hollow cassettes? (sram red) ti spindles on pedals?

the list goes on!


in all relativity bikes are fairly cheap. if you personally went through every step of machining, designing, and materials. and built a bike from the ground up. (which is an extreme exageration.) it would be THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS we are talking a $90,000 bike all said and done. shiit. if you were to even by the materials needed to make the product, it would probably cost more than what you currently spend on bicycles.
flag Jwmbike14
Posted: Jan 7, 2009 at 23:27 Quote
norcorulz wrote:
Jwmbike14 wrote:
norcorulz wrote:
try make an original design on it then, and make it work, then make a prototype and ride it
do you have any idea how many prototype bikes it takes to make a dual suspension bike work?

+1 thanks man!

thats exactly my point!

i am on my way to an engineering degree. but no where close yet.

i have been working on a design, that i feel has a lot of potential, for 2 years. but i am constantly changing things trying to find a good design that has minimal pedal bob, brake jack, pedal kickback, yet very plush and progressive.

and then when im finally ready and happy with it. im looking at spending at least 3 grand to have the frame made in steel for a first prototype. then another for a 2nd prototype (with whatever changes i may make) then whatever would come next!

people just don;t realize how much it takes!
2 years. wow
i knew it would take a long time but damn, didnt realise it would be that long, i expected about a year, ill stick to designing hardtails for now Razz
i have a few small designs that to would like to make (not in my albums) but i simply cant afford to even make one prototype, no one i know can weld properly, dont really know all the necessary tube diameters, dropout designs, even .5 degree in head angle can be enough to make your bike a bit too slack for street riding so you really need to know your stuff

exactly my point. im working with the education i have. and have yet to get an engineering degree.

but what people fail to realize is how specific things are, your completly right. even .25 of a degree in headtube changes the ride

my bike is based off the geometry of a v10 for starters. then i took it and made the changes i like. such as just a tad bit slacker head tube 66.5 rather than 67.

kept bb height frame length all that. i ended up shortening chanstay and wheel base by a 1/4 inch (which i feel mayb be a little to much, but don;t know till a prototype)

and its only taking so long because as far as the suspension design, im starting from skratch. it is entirely nothing that has been done before. and personally i have made sooo many changes. most recently when in simulation the initial rotation of the rear end was very high but then drastically dropped. now this would be good for pedaling. but would feel horrible for the rest of the travel.(keep in mind the frame is a tybe of VPP mixed with floating shock) so changing the length of an upper pivot by slight millimeter increments can change the feel and rotation completely.
flag evan547
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 5:34 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
i know that bikes can require a great deal of engineering and design. but to say one has more technology than a computer is a bit of a strech, no?

Absolutely not. If a process is known, there is much less design work required. A computer using technology from a couple of years ago can be very inexpensive. A computer with the latest tech, now that's gunna cost you.

Also, while you have electrical and computer engineers working on computers, you have mechanical and chemical engineers working on bike parts, paint, etc.
flag dirtjumpur
FL
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 5:46 Quote
"You get what you pay for"
flag evan547
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 5:53 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
you are confusing technology with engineering.

a low end computer uses much more technology than a high end bike.

a high end bike, however, undergoes a much more detailed design process. ie more engineering.

Ah, well said, but when talking about cost I think of new technology as needing the engineering, while old technology needs much less engineering.
flag max-tooltime-imus5
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 9:00 Quote
evan547 wrote:
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
i know that bikes can require a great deal of engineering and design. but to say one has more technology than a computer is a bit of a strech, no?

Absolutely not. If a process is known, there is much less design work required. A computer using technology from a couple of years ago can be very inexpensive. A computer with the latest tech, now that's gunna cost you.

Also, while you have electrical and computer engineers working on computers, you have mechanical and chemical engineers working on bike parts, paint, etc.

not sure your point stands.

high end bikes from a couple years ago still cost a lot.

look at kona. they don't really change much year to year and they still charge thousands for their bikes.
flag evan547
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 9:19 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
evan547 wrote:
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
i know that bikes can require a great deal of engineering and design. but to say one has more technology than a computer is a bit of a strech, no?

Absolutely not. If a process is known, there is much less design work required. A computer using technology from a couple of years ago can be very inexpensive. A computer with the latest tech, now that's gunna cost you.

Also, while you have electrical and computer engineers working on computers, you have mechanical and chemical engineers working on bike parts, paint, etc.

not sure your point stands.

high end bikes from a couple years ago still cost a lot.

look at kona. they don't really change much year to year and they still charge thousands for their bikes.

The parts are a constant evolution, and I bet they make up the bulk of the cost of a bike. Paint tech and regulations for applying it change. Designing new rockers out of mag requires a whole new set of calculations. You also have to look at payoff time. After engineering is completed, the break even point for computers may only be one year (I don't know), then they can fund new developments and the last years technology is "common knowledge" before long.

Because bike margins and volumes are low, the pace of progression may be slower due to lack of funding, but the quality and complexity certainly rivals that of almost any other discipline in engineering. This is my main point, that bike manufacturers are required to input a certain level of design work into each product as dictated by the customer. The profits are not high in the industry and what they produce these days is top notch in terms of technology.

A 3 year old F1 car (meticulously engineered mechanically) is not likely o drop much in price either, and that is one damn high tech machine!
flag davemud
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 9:43 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
actually i am going to school to be an engineer right now, so yes i have used CAD. i actually am pretty good with it (compared to the rest of my class).

Your profile says you are 15 years old and you are currently in university persuing an engineering degree or you are in high school taking courses to prepare for university?

Just because a bicycle isn't loaded with electronics doesn't mean it isn't high tech. High tech in the business world doesn't mean electronics only it means the company spends a certain percentage of its annual sales on research and development. I don't recall the percentage of sales required to meet the definition but it is quite high as I recall.

All of a bike industry's expenses are the same as any other industry relative to their size. They have to pay market value for space, taxes, finiancing, hydro, water, equipment, materials, marketing, transportation, logistics ect. Why would the suppliers of those things charge any less to the bike industry companies than they can get from other industries.

They should also be paying market value for labour but they sure as halo don't in the operations side of things in my experience.

The smaller purchasing volume is primarily what makes bikes expensive to other products that are more complicated to produce. Think about the size of the bicycle industry compared to the size of the auto industry or computer industry. Our beloved bike industry is a Gnat standing between two elephants.
flag max-tooltime-imus5
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 13:42 Quote
my profiles wrong. i'm 18 going to ufv.

and i think that your part about all the work going into it is a little off in the big picture.

in the end, i think that the high prices are simply a way for the industry to compensate for a smaller market. that's what you are trying to say, no?
flag Jwmbike14
Posted: Jan 8, 2009 at 14:09 Quote
max-tooltime-imus5 wrote:
my profiles wrong. i'm 18 going to ufv.

and i think that your part about all the work going into it is a little off in the big picture.

in the end, i think that the high prices are simply a way for the industry to compensate for a smaller market. that's what you are trying to say, no?

alright. i think we shoudl all give up.

this kid obviously doesn't understand the price of hydro formed tubing, or the machinery it takes to do it. he doesn't understand the alloy engineers designing better aluminum. he doesn't understand that fox lowers are magnesium. he doesn't understand how much magnesium or aluminum tubing cost (and its not just te aluminum used in a car, its much higher end)

he doesn't understand the costs of the engineering.

and no matter how much sense our comments make, he either ignores the really good ones. or he says "i get what your saying, but i don't think your point stands" over and over to every ones legitimate reason

he is 15. and ignorant. he is a cancerous tumor to the bike industry. let him eat his heart out claiming he is ripped off. i don't wanna see a whiner like him on our trails anyway.

 


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