Better Suspension + Less Money = Major Win

PB Forum :: Downhill
Better Suspension + Less Money = Major Win
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flag DavidMakalaster
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 16:27 Quote
If you could get a brand new custom tuned DH race shock or fork for half to a fifth the cost of, say, a new Boxxer, 40, etc wouldn't you jump all over it? Does it have to be shiny and have this year's stickers and the freshest salmon paint? Are you willing to pay 2-5 times as much for a few stickers? The reason I ask is because you can but the bike community as a whole seems to be overlooking the option in favor of buying new stuff just because. Avalanche Suspension makes a pile of the most primo suspension parts ever but they aren't getting enough interest to justify production of some of their kits. For example: How many DHXs are out there? If you could throw $300 bucks at it and have a shock that outperforms and outlasts all the newest crap why wouldn't you? Very little interest apparently. Blows my mind. I would LOVE to see their complete AVA Advantage program take off so I can call up and get a tune on pretty much any gravity suspension product. That's not gonna happen if more people don't show interest.
flag whattheheel
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 16:51 Quote
DavidMakalaster wrote:
If you could get a brand new custom tuned DH race shock or fork for half to a fifth the cost of, say, a new Boxxer, 40, etc wouldn't you jump all over it? Does it have to be shiny and have this year's stickers and the freshest salmon paint? Are you willing to pay 2-5 times as much for a few stickers? The reason I ask is because you can but the bike community as a whole seems to be overlooking the option in favor of buying new stuff just because. Avalanche Suspension makes a pile of the most primo suspension parts ever but they aren't getting enough interest to justify production of some of their kits. For example: How many DHXs are out there? If you could throw $300 bucks at it and have a shock that outperforms and outlasts all the newest crap why wouldn't you? Very little interest apparently. Blows my mind. I would LOVE to see their complete AVA Advantage program take off so I can call up and get a tune on pretty much any gravity suspension product. That's not gonna happen if more people don't show interest.
MMM I guess I never thought of sending in my dhx? I was just going to go air but I may have to rethink it. Nice thread and good to see you back on here!!!!!!
flag cruelty-and-the-beast
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 16:53 Quote
I like the peace of mind that new product gives me... i know were its been and know if its fu cked i can warantee it.
flag whattheheel
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 16:54 Quote
You would get warranty from the guys at avalanche.....And if it is your shock you are sending in then.......
flag dh-pete
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 17:07 Quote
Oh Em Gee, it's Beelzebub himself! Risen once again.

I've gotta say, the first thing is I didn't even know they had tuning options like they do! So on that point the marketing is the first let down, they need to get their name out there. Apart from a thread on NSMB or Ridemonkey every now and then I don't even see their name.

It's all down to image. Avalanche are underdogs, when suspension tuning is mentioned the name that springs to mind is PUSH, with the big name and well documented and updated projects, even if they come out when the chassis they are improving become out of date. PUSH have the right image, a dedicated specialist suspension tuning/servicing company. If Avalanche dropped their product line or their AVA Advantage program were to branch off they'd have a fresh chance at getting a good name. The 90's leftover bits just don't fit in.

Otherwise, get 'em over here so I can get a H & L compression adjuster on my DHX and be rid of the propedal knob. All my forks have to do is be smooth through the travel, stay high in their travel, and allow me to push as hard as I want into the corners without soaking up my grip.
flag runner
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 17:33 Quote
My '10 Boxxer has been surprisingly unimpressive so I'm planning to have him put the Avy cart in there (in addition to tuning my Woody). I agree that with support this could be a fantastic way to improve the quality/cost factor of most suspension. The only thing that irks me about the program is that the prices add up quickly. The cart itself costs $299USD, but then you have to buy an $89 adapter right off the bat so it's really $388. Next, according to people close to AVA it really performs best when you have the mid-speed valving kit installed on it, which of course costs another 40 so it adds up to over $400. (If you want it installed, there's another $100.) I just wish that the required adapter was included in the price, because it really costs a lot more than the $299 would suggest.
flag undercoverfreak
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 17:43 Quote
The fact that their website is quite unclear and they aren't available outside north america doesn't help.
flag cthorpe
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 18:34 Quote
IMO these are great options if you are rebuilding a fork you currently have.

wish they offered a replacement air spring cartridge kit for the 888. i would buy one in a heartbeat.
flag sprockets
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 19:00 Quote
Great topic. I deal with this daily right now. So those in the discussion know, I have been working with SR Suntour for the past 5 months. They build an unbelievable number of forks every year and the majority of these are for bikes ranging from $300-1500 for a complete bike. At the same time they build an XC fork Axon Carbon Werx that has carbon lowers, electric lock out and is World Cup proven results (oh and it is sub 1500 grams with thru axle). Their Axon Werx (magnesium version) fork was also used by Rinderknect for 4X win at Val di Sole last month. Point being is there is the know how to build an absolute top shelf product but it is not what they are currently known for.... the point of the discussion of building better for less but still fighting for sales.

There are some great technologies we are exploring and some really nice dampers already in existing products too but there is the hurdle of name being unknown or known for lower end product to get over. The Fox juggernaut on the minds of the buying public is impressive. I've been down this road of brand building before and it is fun and challenging but a struggle nonetheless to build something up. Avalanche, SR Suntour, etc all of us have our challenges to win hearts, minds and ultimately see our products "in the wild".

So my question back is if they get the marketing going, warranty back up and of course build great product at a great price will people come to the party? Or do people still get balled up by the fact that somebody can also go buy a $300 hardtail with one of their forks on it as a reason to not make the leap to try their good stuff?
flag thereisnospoon
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 19:13 Quote
I'm pretty happy with my experience with Craig and Avalanche. I've had my AVA cartridge in my 2006 888 for a few weeks now, and am seriously impressed. it tracks everything, maintains the small-bump sensitivity that 888s were known for, in a package that doesn't dive (at least nothing like a stock 888 is known for), pack up, spike, puke oil, or easily bottom out. all in a fork that requires ZERO maintenance. time will tell on reliability, but no issues in the ~40 hours I have on it so far. I haven't had enough time on the new Boxxer WC/Team or Fox 40 to really give a credible comparison, hopefully someone else will be able to chime in.

as for the cartridge, I beat the hell out of it over everything that Kicking Horse and Silverstar could throw at it. More than once did I regularly overshoot tables to flat, I occasionally cased doubles, hell it even made the minefield of brake bumps all over SS fun and pain-free. once dialed in I never felt it bottom or be harsh. it was very predictable off of lips, and regularly made full use of all 8" of travel while tracking absolutely everything.

as for price, I did the math and just couldn't justify the several $100 extra I'd need to throw into even a used '10 Boxxer Team in decent shape. the lack of e-cred is fine by me, I couldn't care less if 14yr olds snicker at seeing an old boring crowbar 888 on a Glory DH Cool .

and if I ever kill the fork, it's nice to know that I can easily put the AVA cartridge in something else. I was somewhat skeptical, seeing how nobody has one (and reviews were very few and far between), but in my experience this thing truly is major win.
flag ninjatarian
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 19:58 Quote
Looks like an awesome option... however they dont seem to have much selection if you dont need a 888 or piggyback for dh. If they offered something for shorter single crowns I would be all over it.
flag DavidMakalaster
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 20:27 Quote
cruelty-and-the-beast wrote:
I like the peace of mind that new product gives me... i know were its been and know if its fu cked i can warantee it.

Avalanche will take WAYYYY better care of you than any major suspension company.
flag DavidMakalaster
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 20:29 Quote
dh-pete wrote:
It's all down to image. Avalanche are underdogs, when suspension tuning is mentioned the name that springs to mind is PUSH, with the big name and well documented and updated projects, even if they come out when the chassis they are improving become out of date. PUSH have the right image, a dedicated specialist suspension tuning/servicing company. If Avalanche dropped their product line or their AVA Advantage program were to branch off they'd have a fresh chance at getting a good name. The 90's leftover bits just don't fit in.

Otherwise, get 'em over here so I can get a H & L compression adjuster on my DHX and be rid of the propedal knob. All my forks have to do is be smooth through the travel, stay high in their travel, and allow me to push as hard as I want into the corners without soaking up my grip.

They'll be the first to tell you that marketing is their problem. That's one of the most common problems for small innovative companies. That's why it's on us to support kick @ss companies so we keep getting kick @ss products. You can easily get stuff overseas. They'll work with you on shipping.
flag DavidMakalaster
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 20:29 Quote
runner wrote:
My '10 Boxxer has been surprisingly unimpressive so I'm planning to have him put the Avy cart in there (in addition to tuning my Woody). I agree that with support this could be a fantastic way to improve the quality/cost factor of most suspension. The only thing that irks me about the program is that the prices add up quickly. The cart itself costs $299USD, but then you have to buy an $89 adapter right off the bat so it's really $388. Next, according to people close to AVA it really performs best when you have the mid-speed valving kit installed on it, which of course costs another 40 so it adds up to over $400. (If you want it installed, there's another $100.) I just wish that the required adapter was included in the price, because it really costs a lot more than the $299 would suggest.

This is one of the basic problems. Tons of people are buying the kits for the new Boxxers and only a handful have ordered parts for the old Boxxer. How many of those are out there? 10 times as many? Does everyone really think they're THAT much better? The new Boxxers, believe it or not, still have tons in common with the old ones. The new Boxxer Race still has several parts that date back to 06'. A brand new fork WILL NOT feel better than a 3,4,5 year old fork that's CUSTOM TUNED TO YOU!! BTW: Do you realize how small these batches are and how nice the parts are? They are infinitely better finished than any off the shelf fork.
flag DavidMakalaster
Posted: Sep 13, 2010 at 20:30 Quote
undercoverfreak wrote:
The fact that their website is quite unclear and they aren't available outside north america doesn't help.

I had no problem finding all the information I want to get from a website. Call and talk to them and you'll get more help than 99% of the industry. I'd rather have something explained by a person.
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