Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 11:49 Quote
tom666 wrote:
What do people think about Box's 9 speed drivetrains?

11-50t range with only 9 gears.

Anybody got time on one?

Looking forward to trying one. Would prefer 10 - 45, but still, it's probably the right concept for dirt.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 11:56 Quote
Circe wrote:
I think it's disingenuous for brands to size things "S2, S3, S4, etc.." Yes, there are forum nerds like us who know exactly what reach, STA, HA, ETT, leverage rate, anti-squat, etc... who know what they're looking for in a bike, but the vast majority of folks don't know. This makes it really hard for a consumer.

From the brand perspective, I do get it. There's folks who are curmedgeony about their sizes. They insist they're X size, whether they should or shouldn't be...Changing the sizing helps reframe the conversation.

And, it also masks the fact that alot of brands with these new naming schemes aren't offering extra small, small, or extra large sizes. I understand that 70% of bikes sold today are medium or large, but I think it's kinda f*cked for bigger brands to just ignore those consumers. We talk about being more inclusive, but then we exclude those folks by not making bikes that fit them.

For reference, the vast majority of bikes sold in Asia and South America are smalls and mediums.

Sizing is a difficult issue.

Example: several years ago, an XL Pivot Mach 6 was smaller than a Small Mondraker Foxy.

We have to call our sizes *something*, but it's frustrating when a customer believes he or she is a certain size and will consider only that size or would second-guess a different size, even if it feels better.

Personally I like the ability to communicate to customers that "size" doesn't matter: choose the agility / stability level you want and - within reason - make it fit via seat tube and cockpit components. I can still provide a geometry chart for those who want to really dig into it, though even a geometry chart is misleading due to actual vs. effective angles, reach-stack relationship, etc.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 12:08 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Circe wrote:
I think it's disingenuous for brands to size things "S2, S3, S4, etc.." Yes, there are forum nerds like us who know exactly what reach, STA, HA, ETT, leverage rate, anti-squat, etc... who know what they're looking for in a bike, but the vast majority of folks don't know. This makes it really hard for a consumer.

From the brand perspective, I do get it. There's folks who are curmedgeony about their sizes. They insist they're X size, whether they should or shouldn't be...Changing the sizing helps reframe the conversation.

And, it also masks the fact that alot of brands with these new naming schemes aren't offering extra small, small, or extra large sizes. I understand that 70% of bikes sold today are medium or large, but I think it's kinda f*cked for bigger brands to just ignore those consumers. We talk about being more inclusive, but then we exclude those folks by not making bikes that fit them.

For reference, the vast majority of bikes sold in Asia and South America are smalls and mediums.

Sizing is a difficult issue.

Example: several years ago, an XL Pivot Mach 6 was smaller than a Small Mondraker Foxy.

We have to call our sizes *something*, but it's frustrating when a customer believes he or she is a certain size and will consider only that size or would second-guess a different size, even if it feels better.

Personally I like the ability to communicate to customers that "size" doesn't matter: choose the agility / stability level you want and - within reason - make it fit via seat tube and cockpit components. I can still provide a geometry chart for those who want to really dig into it, though even a geometry chart is misleading due to actual vs. effective angles, reach-stack relationship, etc.

To a point but it isn't good if you can't stand over the bike.especially a mountain bike

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 13:18 Quote
tom666 wrote:
What do people think about Box's 9 speed drivetrains?

11-50t range with only 9 gears.

Anybody got time on one?

Does anyone know who would distribute this?
BTI or maybe QBP?

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 13:18 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
tom666 wrote:
What do people think about Box's 9 speed drivetrains?

11-50t range with only 9 gears.

Anybody got time on one?

Looking forward to trying one. Would prefer 10 - 45, but still, it's probably the right concept for dirt.

I'm tempted to give it a go, but not sure how much I fancy putting up my own money to be the test mule.

Why 10-45? More compact for weight & ground clearance purposes I guess?

Because the box stuff is the cheaper end of the market they probably wanted to stick to a standard freehub body. 10t would require them to use SRAM XD or another non standard freehub. That's my guess anyway


PS I totally agree on the sizing thing. People identify themselves with a particular size - 5'9 dude saying super firmly I am a large when some mediums have 460mm reach these days and the large would have him riding nearly 490 which would be super inappropriate. The numbered system makes a tonne of sense.

About the sizing equality thing (people not making XS, S, XXL etc) - I can understand why many manufacturers wouldn't want to make those sizes, particularly in carbon. It's cool though, plenty of manufacturers will still offer those sizes and they'll scoop up the business.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 14:09 Quote
Client9 wrote:
tom666 wrote:
What do people think about Box's 9 speed drivetrains?

11-50t range with only 9 gears.

Anybody got time on one?

Does anyone know who would distribute this?
BTI or maybe QBP?

Both Q and BTI look to be stocking it. Q says it's expected Nov 7th.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 14:38 Quote
wrote:
[Quote="tom666"Why 10-45? More compact for weight & ground clearance purposes I guess?

Because the box stuff is the cheaper end of the market they probably wanted to stick to a standard freehub body. 10t would require them to use SRAM XD or another non standard freehub. That's my guess anyway

Yes, it scales down the whole system with associated reductions in weight and price, plus increases in clearance and strength. For the rare occasions I need the 10T, I can put up with the reduced efficiency.

9 - 40T is appealing, but I notice the reduced efficiency of the 9T on my e*thirteen. It may be a step too far.

I haven't checked what driver the Box cassette requires. Their 11sp cassette requires a proprietary driver, which, I hope we can agree, is insane for a small player attempting market entry. The 9sp had better use a Shimano driver, though I don't see why they wouldn't use xD.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 14:56 Quote
wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
[Quote="tom666"Why 10-45? More compact for weight & ground clearance purposes I guess?

Because the box stuff is the cheaper end of the market they probably wanted to stick to a standard freehub body. 10t would require them to use SRAM XD or another non standard freehub. That's my guess anyway

Yes, it scales down the whole system with associated reductions in weight and price, plus increases in clearance and strength. For the rare occasions I need the 10T, I can put up with the reduced efficiency.

9 - 40T is appealing, but I notice the reduced efficiency of the 9T on my e*thirteen. It may be a step too far.

I haven't checked what driver the Box cassette requires. Their 11sp cassette requires a proprietary driver, which, I hope we can agree, is insane for a small player attempting market entry. The 9sp had better use a Shimano driver, though I don't see why they wouldn't use xD.

I'm pretty sure that none of the Box cassettes require special freehubs. They all have lock rings and are HG compatible.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 15:57 Quote
That's not what I was told when evaluating them for OE spec a year ago. Here's hoping they came to their senses.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 16:25 Quote
Lets talk about that MRP Jackson air shock.

Lots of people think it's a dual stage positive air spring, like IRT or Runt on a shock. Pinkbike think its a independently adjustable negative air spring.

Back in 2014 they were working on Magnetic Compression Damping and Ramp Control for their prototype air shock.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 16:41 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
That's not what I was told when evaluating them for OE spec a year ago. Here's hoping they came to their senses.

A quick trip to their website shows them with lock rings. That's what I'm basing my information on.

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 18:41 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Lets talk about that MRP Jackson air shock.

Lots of people think it's a dual stage positive air spring, like IRT or Runt on a shock. Pinkbike think its a independently adjustable negative air spring.

Back in 2014 they were working on Magnetic Compression Damping and Ramp Control for their prototype air shock.

I'm in for dual stage air

Posted: Oct 23, 2019 at 19:02 Quote
Independent negative spring wouldn’t be anything new, older air shocks had that. Manitou swingers maybe? Definitely some pos older rockshox models.

Posted: Oct 24, 2019 at 21:55 Quote
Pretty sure downhill and enduro racers will start to experiment with 29" rear, 30" front, as soon as a tire and rim manufacturer supports it. It is the logical extension of the success of mullet bikes. Perhaps someone already has pointed this out.
31.5" seems a bit much?

Posted: Oct 24, 2019 at 22:32 Quote
zeeman wrote:
Pretty sure downhill and enduro racers will start to experiment with 29" rear, 30" front, as soon as a tire and rim manufacturer supports it. It is the logical extension of the success of mullet bikes. Perhaps someone already has pointed this out.
31.5" seems a bit much?

It's interesting to ponder about bigger wheels.. Like we all know that 29ers were gangly and didn't handle that well in their first iterations, but that's all generally figured out now.. Can we take the things we know about that progression and apply it towards even bigger wheels, or have we reached the relative crossroads of speed and handling traits?

Being 6'3. I would be interested in trying a 36" out... There was a furax dh bike that had a custom rear end built and ran a Dorado with 36" unicycle hoops laced in.. My manager has the exact furax DH bike and I have been trying to talk him into it for years..


 
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