Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 30, 2019 at 22:09 Quote
ktm87 wrote:
Working on a project right now. Do you think the internal gear hubs can handle the extra power of an Ebike or would it cause problems?

It may not hold up to the most powerful motors, but I think light motors with modest output, like the Fazua, are the ideal solution anyway, and conventional hubs should be able to handle that.

Also, I'd be surprised if Shimano isn't working on a more robust version for e-bikes.


shirk-007 wrote:
A new Lahar with Shimano Di2 hub.

That would be a nice bicycle.
flag deli-hustler
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 0:59 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
ktm87 wrote:
Working on a project right now. Do you think the internal gear hubs can handle the extra power of an Ebike or would it cause problems?

It may not hold up to the most powerful motors, but I think light motors with modest output, like the Fazua, are the ideal solution anyway, and conventional hubs should be able to handle that.

Also, I'd be surprised if Shimano isn't working on a more robust version for e-bikes
.

Someone said on the eBike tread that Bosch are working a motor with a built in gearbox, now that would be interesting.
flag tomhoward379
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 1:26 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
What does everyone think about bikes with idlers (the extra sprocket to route the chain higher)?

For those who may not be super familiar, they:

• Allow for more anti-squat (resistance to squish when pedaling) with less pedal kickback
• Allow for a more compliant axle path
• Cause considerable chainstay elongation during compression, which is more stable, but also less "playful" and more difficult to manual and hop
• Add a little drag, noise, weight, and cost

So, would you pay a little extra, accept a bit of drivetrain friction, and generally live with the downsides in favour of the upsides? Are the upsides even upsides to you? Do you see it as being more advanced?

Yep, already got a Deviate Guide, and will be ordering the (shorter travel 29er) Highlander when it’s available.

Sold on HSP bikes, they way they descend is a different league.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 8:56 Quote
tomhoward379 wrote:
Yep, already got a Deviate Guide, and will be ordering the (shorter travel 29er) Highlander when it’s available.

Sold on HSP bikes, they way they descend is a different league.

What downsides have you experienced, how have they affected the ride, and how are you mitigating them?
flag tomhoward379
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 10:27 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
tomhoward379 wrote:
Yep, already got a Deviate Guide, and will be ordering the (shorter travel 29er) Highlander when it’s available.

Sold on HSP bikes, they way they descend is a different league.

What downsides have you experienced, how have they affected the ride, and how are you mitigating them?

Honestly haven’t really noticed any with the suspension, it feels a little sluggish to get going, due to it being a bit portly, and there’s still drag in the GB (not fully run in yet). It’s not the easiest to manual, you kinda need to muscle it a bit, but the suspension performance more than makes up for it. As a winch and plummet bike, it’s perfect

Highlander should be better at more undulating trail riding as (sshhh) it won’t have a gearbox, so the weight will be further back, just hoping it won’t affect the suss too badly.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 10:29 Quote
tomhoward379 wrote:
Honestly haven’t really noticed any with the suspension, it feels a little sluggish to get going, due to it being a bit portly, and there’s still drag in the GB (not fully run in yet). It’s not the easiest to manual, you kinda need to muscle it a bit, but the suspension performance more than makes up for it.

Highlander should be better as (sshhh) it won’t have a gearbox, so the weight will be further back, just hoping it won’t affect the suss too badly.

Thank you for the feedback! I'm interested to hear your comparison of gearbox vs. standard drivetrain; please keep us updated!
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 10:35 Quote
Am I right in that current 12spd cassette setups are around 500% gear range, and the Shimano Alfine 11 is around 408%?

Would it be possible to have a similarly large range across a smaller/lighter set of gears within a internally-geared hub?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 10:52 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Am I right in that current 12spd cassette setups are around 500% gear range, and the Shimano Alfine 11 is around 408%?

Would it be possible to have a similarly large range across a smaller/lighter set of gears within a internally-geared hub?

Unfortunately, the internally-geared hubs are rather heavy; conventional drivetrains still win on weight ...

... unless you use the hub as a gearbox in the sprung portion of the frame and connect it to a singlespeed or fixie hub, in which case the whole system is still heavier, but the unsprung mass is greatly reduced, improving suspension performance.
flag ktm87
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 12:23 Quote
i have my frame im working on right now with a high pivot and idler designed around a pinion but i would love an ebike version. i dont wanna switch to a derailleur tho so i have been looking into putting a alfine in the frame. i was just talking to a guy and he said they have been having issues with rohloff hubs on e bikes and they havent been lasting on them.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 12:41 Quote
Who'da thunk that watch-like construction might not deal well with superhuman levels of torque?
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 12:42 Quote
ktm87 wrote:
i have my frame im working on right now with a high pivot and idler designed around a pinion but i would love an ebike version. i dont wanna switch to a derailleur tho so i have been looking into putting a alfine in the frame. i was just talking to a guy and he said they have been having issues with rohloff hubs on e bikes and they havent been lasting on them.

I always wondered about a rohloff on an ebike.. They won't shift under power, which I would think would be interesting because ebikes inherently deliver power more evenly than than we do. IE you can't just ease up on a power stroke to let them shift.


The zerode I spent time on at interbike was rad, but definitely takes a bit to get used to as you definitely have to ease up to let it shift.

This guy is stoked on his rohloff on his Kenevo though.

https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/kenevo-wpenized-%E2%80%94-and-fully-matted-out.7026/
flag secondtimeuser
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 12:56 Quote
Nicolai will sell you their lunatic ebike with a Rohloff already on it so I guess they're happy with the performance.

https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/bike/g1-eboxx/

I think that bike almost gets a full house in MTB bingo as well;

Ebike
Gear hub
Electronic shifting
Belt drive
Wireless dropper

Just needs a linkage fork on the front and a one piece bar and stem I think.
flag mark-p
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 14:22 Quote
The best option is a Pinion gearbox if that is what you are looking for. They use car gearbox technology and are far more robust than even a Rolhoff.

https://pinion.eu/en/mtb/

MBUK reviewed one (not sure which) a while ago and it looked to be not bad.

As far as belt drive is concerned it is not worth the space it occupies. This is from experience, I had a belt drive, Alfine 8 setup for my commuter bike. It was supposed to be nearly maintenance free and long lasting.....
After about 9 months and 2000 miles I kept thinking that the hub was slipping and spent ages replacing the cable so it was end-to-end outer and adjusting it. Under certain conditions after a gear change there would be a crunch. after another 3 or 4 months of this I had investigated further to see that a load of the teeth on the belt were missing and many more were loose on one or other side of the centertrack. Each crunch was more teeth breaking off from the belt. Also the plastic front ring was badly worn. Contact the dealer and I am not the first with this. After some careful measurements apparently it is about 0.5mm out of alignment. We mutually agree that replacing with a chain is the best option, no trouble since on another 1000 miles.

What was scary was how much the stainless steel rear pulley had worn as well, nothing to do with alignment. The cost of a belt and pulleys was well over £300 compared to £70 for a ring, rear sprocket and chain. Looking at the rear sprocket wear it was just the same as a traditional chain setup, not the long, maintenance free life that was expected.

Although the Alfine 8 has been reliable I am always aware that it is there and have adapted my shifting to minimise stress. I certainly never put one on an MTB and would question a Rolhoff in that situation as well. The loads are just too high for reliability.
flag ktm87
O+
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 14:55 Quote
If you can figure out a good way to have a pinion on an ebike let me know loo
flag dingus
Posted: Oct 31, 2019 at 15:25 Quote
Just run one of those motor hub things and convince yourself that unsprung mass is a lie spread by big carbon.

 


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