Roval wheel rebuild question

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Roval wheel rebuild question
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flag ryan83
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Posted: Mar 2, 2016 at 20:36 Quote
I posted this on a Roval forum on MTBR and crickets...

After a slew of issues with my 2015 Specialized Enduro Carbon Expert 27.5 which have ranged from a failed dropper, 3 rear shocks, and freehub/cassette issues (the creak from hell) it seems I now have to replace my rear rim and/or wheel. I am a 190 lb rider with gear. I don't ride parks/DH but I do ride very rocky, technical terrain. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not gentle on on my bike (isn't that what this bike is for?) but this situation makes me grumpy as this bike has about 25-30 total rides on it. By comparison, I've had wheels from handbuilt arch/crest, Spank, i9 and Bontrager that rarely needed to be touched.

After its recent truing, I was out riding this past weekend and my Roval Fattie Alloy rear wheel has developed a wobble so bad that it was rubbing the frame under tension during my ride (that's a first)! I took it to my LBS where I bought the bike, and they told me the spoke tension is so bad that we need to replace the rim. There are 2 small dings in the rim but I've don't have any memorable incidents where I smacked the rim.


So the questions:
-Can anyone comment on success rebuilding this rear wheel using stronger spokes and/or a different rim?
-Can any heavier riders comment on the long-term durability of Roval wheels on rocky/technical terrain? This is going to end up costing at a minimum $200 to repair and I'm temped to move to a more proven, traditionally-built wheelset. Maybe I just got a bad build or shredded just too hard (joke)
-Does anyone have experience with wide alloy rims like DT XM481, Easton ARC 30/27, WTB i29, etc on a 28 hole, straight-pull configuration? This would enable me to keep the existing hub.
flag RunsWithScissors
Posted: Mar 3, 2016 at 16:56 Quote
Relative to your size 28 spokes on an aluminum rim is a little on the short side, in my opinion. Maybe you got a bad build, manufacturer's defect, etc. As far as recommendations go, without spending a lot more money you aren't going to have dramatically different parts or dramatically different results. If buying aluminum I'd buy a WTB Frequency.
flag ryan83
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Posted: Mar 3, 2016 at 18:42 Quote
RunsWithScissors wrote:
Relative to your size 28 spokes on an aluminum rim is a little on the short side, in my opinion. Maybe you got a bad build, manufacturer's defect, etc. As far as recommendations go, without spending a lot more money you aren't going to have dramatically different parts or dramatically different results. If buying aluminum I'd buy a WTB Frequency.

Thanks and I think you are right. I'm considering building a new rear wheel. I'm considering doing a custom, DT 350 hub, Competiion double butted spokes, with the new XM 481 rim. I want a wide rim as I'm now hooked on the high volume concept. I've thought about carbon but I'm not convinced the cost/benefit is there yet.
flag RunsWithScissors
Posted: Mar 4, 2016 at 5:04 Quote
ryan83 wrote:
RunsWithScissors wrote:
Relative to your size 28 spokes on an aluminum rim is a little on the short side, in my opinion. Maybe you got a bad build, manufacturer's defect, etc. As far as recommendations go, without spending a lot more money you aren't going to have dramatically different parts or dramatically different results. If buying aluminum I'd buy a WTB Frequency.

Thanks and I think you are right. I'm considering building a new rear wheel. I'm considering doing a custom, DT 350 hub, Competiion double butted spokes, with the new XM 481 rim. I want a wide rim as I'm now hooked on the high volume concept. I've thought about carbon but I'm not convinced the cost/benefit is there yet.

I work for a carbon wheel manufacturer, so naturally I'd say that the cost/benefit ratio of our product is quite good compared to aluminum. Just out of curiosity, what would you say is a GOOD cost/benefit ratio, and how would you determine that? Weight/dimensions vs price? Spoke pullout strength vs price? Modulus of elasticity vs price? Carbon and aluminum are so wildly different in their physical characteristics that comparing the two is sort of pointless. Sure, carbon costs more, but it's lighter, stronger, stiffer,and unlike aluminum, it wants to return to it's original shape after flexing. About the only thing that aluminum beats carbon at is price. It's a lot cheaper to manufacture aluminum, so aluminum will always be cheaper, but Bud Light will always be cheaper than a good craft beer as well. Does that make it a better beer?
flag ryan83
O+
Posted: Mar 4, 2016 at 7:55 Quote
RunsWithScissors wrote:
ryan83 wrote:
RunsWithScissors wrote:
Relative to your size 28 spokes on an aluminum rim is a little on the short side, in my opinion. Maybe you got a bad build, manufacturer's defect, etc. As far as recommendations go, without spending a lot more money you aren't going to have dramatically different parts or dramatically different results. If buying aluminum I'd buy a WTB Frequency.

Thanks and I think you are right. I'm considering building a new rear wheel. I'm considering doing a custom, DT 350 hub, Competiion double butted spokes, with the new XM 481 rim. I want a wide rim as I'm now hooked on the high volume concept. I've thought about carbon but I'm not convinced the cost/benefit is there yet.

I work for a carbon wheel manufacturer, so naturally I'd say that the cost/benefit ratio of our product is quite good compared to aluminum. Just out of curiosity, what would you say is a GOOD cost/benefit ratio, and how would you determine that? Weight/dimensions vs price? Spoke pullout strength vs price? Modulus of elasticity vs price? Carbon and aluminum are so wildly different in their physical characteristics that comparing the two is sort of pointless. Sure, carbon costs more, but it's lighter, stronger, stiffer,and unlike aluminum, it wants to return to it's original shape after flexing. About the only thing that aluminum beats carbon at is price. It's a lot cheaper to manufacture aluminum, so aluminum will always be cheaper, but Bud Light will always be cheaper than a good craft beer as well. Does that make it a better beer?

That sounded suspiciously like an industry response!!! All good and I appreciate the dialogue. Here's my point of view.

The cost-benefit question arises from spending $400-$800 on a bike part to shave 80 grams per wheel and add a negligible amount of "ride quality" and "stiffness". I put these in quotes but I don't agree that the rim alone can account for these. As you know, wheel build type, spoke type, craftsmanship, etc. play an equally large role in determining wheel quality and weight. For example, ride a pair of Industry Nine with alloy spokes then go ride a pair of 28/32 spoke carbon rims. All things being equal though, carbon makes for an ideal wheel...for some people in many situations.

I love the fact that IF you don't break them on a rock (happens to all rims and carbon snaps, it doesn't dent) they have a theoretical unlimited fatigue life. The challenge is that I do smash my rims on rocks and consider bike rims to be disposable.

In addition, I've also done back-to-back rides with carbon rims and alloy rims and there are some characteristics that make each appealing depending on the terrain. Carbon is really stiff so I noticed when plowing through a rock garden I got pushed around a bit more where the alloy was more compliant. I know carbon can be made in different ways and again, these factors are determined by the overall wheel build. Carbon also holds its line SO well in turns and you can really feel the weight difference.

That said, I find it curious that many professionals choose not to run carbon rims, even when they have sponsors who manufacture carbon. Jared Graves said he doesn't want to risk not being able to get down the mountain. I'm not in the same hemisphere as these guys but I do ride the same terrain and actually have to buy my parts when they break. If carbon rims actually make you faster, all pros would run them. We'll see again in the upcoming bike checks that the ratio is something like 1/3. Then if you look at DH, which I use my Enduro for, the ratio is much less.

My final concern about carbon comes down to the wheel size debate. Without getting into that, investing $2k in a pair of wheels that could be obsolete on my next bike is another consideration. We can no longer buy a part and transfer it to the next bike like we could 10 years ago. So, until the cost of a carbon rim gets closer to $200-$300 I just don't see how the benefits outweigh the proportionally high cost.

PS. Bud light is cheaper because of economies of scale. They are able to purchase larger volumes, and in some cases (pun intended), vertically integrate their suppliers. They are also extremely efficient manufacturers as a result of many, many years of perfecting their game. I think the same thing will happen to carbon manufacturing (seems like it already is...see "Light Bicycle")
flag romeoblue
Posted: Mar 5, 2016 at 13:40 Quote
If you bought the bike new from a dealer, go back and talk to them about your wheel issues. Those wheels are pretty good, but I have seen a few with low/uneven spoke tension from the factory, spokes that lose tension and/or nipples that break often. Specialized is good about taking care of any problems with a replacement wheel or even offering a big discount on a set of carbon fattie wheels. Just be patient but persistent, keep all records, and don't get mad at the shop folk if it takes a while. And bring them beer.
flag ryan83
O+
Posted: Mar 6, 2016 at 8:21 Quote
romeoblue wrote:
If you bought the bike new from a dealer, go back and talk to them about your wheel issues. Those wheels are pretty good, but I have seen a few with low/uneven spoke tension from the factory, spokes that lose tension and/or nipples that break often. Specialized is good about taking care of any problems with a replacement wheel or even offering a big discount on a set of carbon fattie wheels. Just be patient but persistent, keep all records, and don't get mad at the shop folk if it takes a while. And bring them beer.

That's good to know and my LBS has confirmed Roval having some issues leaving the factory with spoke tension issues. I'm a loyalist there so perhaps I need to squeeze a bit more. I'm outside of warranty by 6 months. They offered a deep discount on carbon rovals but I'm not convinced that they will hold up any better than my current wheels. I had an issue with the roval valve stems where they were leaking air and as a result lost pressure during some long rides. This resulted in a few dings that would have likely destroyed the carbon ones.

I'll update when I make a decision. Thanks!
flag Nickd268
Posted: Mar 26, 2016 at 17:07 Quote
For what has worth I've had several pairs of of roval mountain wheels. One set did have a poor initial build but my last two sets have been bomber. No matter what rim hub combo you go with if you don't have a quality build with evening tensioning you're screwed.
flag ryan83
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Posted: Mar 29, 2016 at 17:57 Quote
So I made the decision. I debated on all kinds of wheels from carbon to pre-built to rebuilding Roval and everywhere in-between. I'm going with the new Hope Pro 4 hubs, DT XM 481, DT Competition, 32 hole J-bend, 3-cross. Many veteran wheel builders contend that this type of build will make for the strongest and most reliable build. Plus if I bust a rim I'm only out $120 plus labor. Thanks for the comments.

PS. My shop guy admitted that he's seen a lot of poor Roval builds as of late. They sell a lot of Specialized...
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