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Reach for a 5'10 person (Specialized enduro S3 vs S4)

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
Reach for a 5'10 person (Specialized enduro S3 vs S4)
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flag jpsnowride
O+
Posted: Dec 30, 2019 at 11:04 Quote
Hi Guys,

I'm looking at the Specialized Enduro. Really good looking bike.

I sit just below 5'10 with shorter legs than long.

I'm afraid that the S4 at 487 reach will be too long for me. and that the 464 reach of the S3 maybe a bit short(ish).
Considering I don't have a long reach bike now with a 2016 remedy, the 464 will already be an increase of almost 50mm but I have a longer stem on my trek (70mm).

Sweet spot on modern geo seems to be around 470 for my height. In the PB field test, riders 5'11 and 6'1 rode the S4 and seemed to feel a bit long.

Any comments advise on the right reach for my height and what size enduro to look into?

Thanks in advance.
flag jamesashton
Posted: Dec 30, 2019 at 11:39 Quote
the numbers are good for comparing bikes, but I would just go on feel, if the long feels better, go with that, even if the numbers seem a bit off. every bike is different, and one bike with a 400 reach could feel completly different to a different bike with the same reach
flag gotohe11carolina
Posted: Dec 30, 2019 at 16:33 Quote
5.10 with 30" inseam, long torso and short arms. My hardtail is a 470 reach which is nice. My full squish is at 450 which I also find quite enjoyable. More important to me than reach is the seatpost length as it really defines how long a dropper I can get away with, and how out of the way I can get that seat. My hardtail is at 420 allowing a 175 dropper for me. My big squish is at 470 which lets me run a 150 dropper which is pretty much always in an 25mm or so. If it were for my body type id be on the s3.
flag jpsnowride
O+
Posted: Dec 31, 2019 at 10:08 Quote
gotohe11carolina wrote:
5.10 with 30" inseam, long torso and short arms. My hardtail is a 470 reach which is nice. My full squish is at 450 which I also find quite enjoyable. More important to me than reach is the seatpost length as it really defines how long a dropper I can get away with, and how out of the way I can get that seat. My hardtail is at 420 allowing a 175 dropper for me. My big squish is at 470 which lets me run a 150 dropper which is pretty much always in an 25mm or so. If it were for my body type id be on the s3.

That is what I was thinking too! thanks for sharing your thoughts !!!
flag eshew
Posted: Dec 31, 2019 at 12:50 Quote
Just short of 5'10 & I ride a medium at 450 reach.

Just remember reach isn't static. If you like to over fork your bike 10mm increase in fork travel is about 13mm reduced reach. Combine that with a shorter stem you can fine tune reach pretty easily. I have a friend with my same bike in a large at 475mm reach with a +10mm fork &-5mm stem & it feels pretty damn close to mine at stock.

But I agree 464 should be a great fit, into the 480's I'd worry about front tire washing out in corners from being stretched out & not being able to weight the front as easily.
flag MarcusBrody
O+ FL
Posted: Jan 1, 2020 at 9:15 Quote
jpsnowride wrote:
Hi Guys,

I'm looking at the Specialized Enduro. Really good looking bike.

I sit just below 5'10 with shorter legs than long.

I'm afraid that the S4 at 487 reach will be too long for me. and that the 464 reach of the S3 maybe a bit short(ish).
Considering I don't have a long reach bike now with a 2016 remedy, the 464 will already be an increase of almost 50mm but I have a longer stem on my trek (70mm).

Sweet spot on modern geo seems to be around 470 for my height. In the PB field test, riders 5'11 and 6'1 rode the S4 and seemed to feel a bit long.

Any comments advise on the right reach for my height and what size enduro to look into?

Thanks in advance.

Assuming that you're buying new, I'd definitely try to demo. People bag on Specialized for being an omnipresent Big Brand, but the advantage is that there are plenty of places you can throw a leg over the bikes and see how sizing feels.

The other factor is how you want the bike to feel. The Enduro is a much bigger bike than the Remedy. If you want to retain some playfulness, I'd go for the S3. You could certainly ride the S4 at your size, but it would likely have more of a monster truck feel. That's great if you want to race it, but as an all around bike, I'd probably go for the S3 at your size (I'm 6'2.5" and lusting after the Enduro as well, I'd go S4 over S5 for the same reason). That being said, I haven't ridden this generation Enduro, so that's all conjecture. Get on the bike if you can!
flag jpsnowride
O+
Posted: Jan 1, 2020 at 16:50 Quote
eshew wrote:
Just short of 5'10 & I ride a medium at 450 reach.

Just remember reach isn't static. If you like to over fork your bike 10mm increase in fork travel is about 13mm reduced reach. Combine that with a shorter stem you can fine tune reach pretty easily. I have a friend with my same bike in a large at 475mm reach with a +10mm fork &-5mm stem & it feels pretty damn close to mine at stock.

But I agree 464 should be a great fit, into the 480's I'd worry about front tire washing out in corners from being stretched out & not being able to weight the front as easily.

Sounds about how I fell. At 170 mm up front, I'd be surprised to change anything on the travel so reach should be as is.

In the Pb test, at 5'11 felt the 487 was long and put the seat all the way forward.

I'll try to flip my leg over to see how it fells.

Thanks for the opinion
flag jpsnowride
O+
Posted: Jan 1, 2020 at 16:51 Quote
MarcusBrody wrote:
jpsnowride wrote:
Hi Guys,

I'm looking at the Specialized Enduro. Really good looking bike.

I sit just below 5'10 with shorter legs than long.

I'm afraid that the S4 at 487 reach will be too long for me. and that the 464 reach of the S3 maybe a bit short(ish).
Considering I don't have a long reach bike now with a 2016 remedy, the 464 will already be an increase of almost 50mm but I have a longer stem on my trek (70mm).

Sweet spot on modern geo seems to be around 470 for my height. In the PB field test, riders 5'11 and 6'1 rode the S4 and seemed to feel a bit long.

Any comments advise on the right reach for my height and what size enduro to look into?

Thanks in advance.

Assuming that you're buying new, I'd definitely try to demo. People bag on Specialized for being an omnipresent Big Brand, but the advantage is that there are plenty of places you can throw a leg over the bikes and see how sizing feels.

The other factor is how you want the bike to feel. The Enduro is a much bigger bike than the Remedy. If you want to retain some playfulness, I'd go for the S3. You could certainly ride the S4 at your size, but it would likely have more of a monster truck feel. That's great if you want to race it, but as an all around bike, I'd probably go for the S3 at your size (I'm 6'2.5" and lusting after the Enduro as well, I'd go S4 over S5 for the same reason). That being said, I haven't ridden this generation Enduro, so that's all conjecture. Get on the bike if you can!
flag jpsnowride
O+
Posted: Jan 1, 2020 at 16:53 Quote
Playfulness is definitely the way to go for me. It's already an increased reach at 464 so I'm leaning more and more towards the S3.

I'm always surprised to see a 5.2 tester ride an s2 considering the reach but I guess they are already used to longer bikes.

I'll see if I can get my leg over one to see the feel.

Thanks for your opinion
flag gnarnaimo
O+
Posted: Jan 1, 2020 at 22:53 Quote
Reach numbers really don't mean anything if you're not also factoring in stack. A bike with 480mm reach and 630mm stack would feel shorter than a bike with 470mm reach and 610mm stack.
Both numbers need to be factored and this is why many bikes with similar reach numbers might feel shorter or longer than others.
Also, a person's height doesn't account for someone's ape index, torso length or inseam. So for one person who is 5'10" who fits comfortably on a large bike, the next guy at 5'10" might find it too small or too big.
flag Pigglet13
Posted: Jan 1, 2020 at 23:17 Quote
gnarnaimo wrote:
Reach numbers really don't mean anything if you're not also factoring in stack. A bike with 480mm reach and 630mm stack would feel shorter than a bike with 470mm reach and 610mm stack.
Both numbers need to be factored and this is why many bikes with similar reach numbers might feel shorter or longer than others.
Also, a person's height doesn't account for someone's ape index, torso length or inseam. So for one person who is 5'10" who fits comfortably on a large bike, the next guy at 5'10" might find it too small or too big.

Bang on.
With so much variation in bike geo and design now you simply can’t use reach as an accurate indicator without comparing it to other factors. Head angle also has an impact as the slacker it is the shorter the cockpit will feel all other thing being equal.

I’ve recently messed up by ordering a medium G1 with 495mm reach and it rides and feels way smaller than my other bike with 465mm reach. I wouldn’t have thought it until I tried it. It’s prohibitively small when seated.

Also not everyone measures there angles the same so you really should try before you buy. Long bikes don’t necessarily mean less playful. I think bottom bracket height has a massive impact on agility and playfulness. Too low and it’s so much harder to loft the front wheel and I’ve also found it can cause the back wheel to get hung up and stall more noticeably Ona 29er.
flag rob748
Posted: Jan 5, 2020 at 17:05 Quote
I'm 5.10
Tested the S3 and S4 last couple weeks.
Racing and really fast riding pick the S4.
Having fun and enjoying speed S3.
flag rob748
Posted: Jan 6, 2020 at 3:59 Quote
One thing that l haven't seen mentioned in reviews is the fox fork models have 44mm offset and the rock shox has 42mm offset forks.
It's only 2mm but why ?
flag jpsnowride
O+
Posted: Jan 6, 2020 at 8:28 Quote
rob748 wrote:
I'm 5.10
Tested the S3 and S4 last couple weeks.
Racing and really fast riding pick the S4.
Having fun and enjoying speed S3.

I'm strongly leaning towards the S3 since I won't be racing anytime soon.

Do you feel like there is a noticeable difference in speed between the two?

Thanks for the input!!!
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jan 6, 2020 at 9:14 Quote
gnarnaimo wrote:
Reach numbers really don't mean anything if you're not also factoring in stack.

THANK YOU. Yes. Finally, people are getting it!


gnarnaimo wrote:
A bike with 480mm reach and 630mm stack would feel shorter than a bike with 470mm reach and 610mm stack.

Well, almost. It's actually the other way around.

For a given reach, greater stack creates a longer bike. The quickest way I can explain it is that if you raise your bar to a certain height above the ground, raising it with spacers, as you'd do on a bike with low stack, causes the stem and bar to move up and back along the steering axis, shortening the bike, whereas raising it via frame stack doesn't do this.

Another way to think of it: Imagine a bike with normal reach and zero stack. Once you add the massive stack of spacers, the bar is in your lap, despite the normal reach.

An interesting thing happens if you use the numbers you chose and flip the stacks to create a useful example:

470 mm reach, 630 mm stack
480 mm reach, 610 mm stack

If we compare these two bikes at a constant stack and the head-tube angle of the Enduro, they have the same effective reach. An easy calculation: "normalized" / "effective" / "true" reach increases by about 40% of the difference in stack.


gnarnaimo wrote:
Also, a person's height doesn't account for someone's ape index, torso length or inseam. So for one person who is 5'10" who fits comfortably on a large bike, the next guy at 5'10" might find it too small or too big.

True. Torso length and inseam are inversely related, so they're not really independent variables. Ape index includes shoulder width; it's more useful to isolate arm length. Let's look at only torso length and arm length:

• If a rider has a long torso for his or her height, increase normalized reach, i.e. accounting for stack
• If a rider has long arms for his or her height, increase stem length

Personal preferences vary, of course.
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