Canada to the Polls

PB Forum :: Social / Political Issues
Canada to the Polls
Author Message
flag grantorino
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 17:36 Quote
laurie1 wrote:
The oilfields have always existed. They might have been smaller but they aren't displacing people by excavating and exploring them. Without the west, the rest of Canada would have a ton of issues. Alberta has a shitload of resources in terms of natural gas and oil. We are a resource rich province and we give more than our fair share of revenue to the government. You guys out east are just greedy as hell. Without us, you would be freezing.

you go girl.....well said!

the liberals scare me...
flag ezekiel
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 17:55 Quote
laurie1 wrote:
You guys out east are just greedy as hell. Without us, you would be freezing.

I got lost at this part, how are the eastern provinces being greedy?
flag bonfire
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 18:00 Quote
marty660 wrote:
laurie1 wrote:
marty660 wrote:
I think Harper's fault is that he pays to much attention to Alberta and the West.

It's about f*cking time! Look at where all the transfer payments come from and where they go to. Your outlook is outlandish. The west has dealt with alienation for too long because they are small geographically. Ontario has always had the majority of the seats and in order to keep those seats, governments need to appeal to the majority of the population which is centered in Ontario. No one has ever cared about the west. The Liberals were pretty much the worst and that is why Alberta bleeds blue and wins by a landslide. The policies hurt Alberta but make it great for everyone else. Those income trusts that were taxed cost several single owners hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. My phone was ringing off the hook when this was announced.

Yeah but most the population is in Ontario and Quebec, two provinces out of ten. So the vote goes to them not you guys.
I'm not saying taxing you guys like there's no tommorow is the right thing to do, but neither is making a haven of an oilfield land and allowing entire respectable communites and towns to dissapear in a year or two.

It is people like you that makes westerners have a deep set hate for easterners. You don't even begin to understand the kind of bullshit that the west has had to deal with.

We have jobs in this part of the nation. In your part of the nation, you don't have jobs. If the economy of of Canada is so strongly supported by our province should we not have a sound foundation in the house? Also the number of seats in Alberta is incorrect. Also the number of seats that Quebec has is skewed, due to laws.

While I feel for the pain that the manufacturing core is going through, I am also led to believe that a very large part of the job cuts can be directly related to unions. When you are at a collective agreement bargaining session and the plant says they can't afford wage increases, and will be forced to close. Yeah calling their bluff is always a good call. Now look at the huge labor cuts.

Labor unions have always had a tough time getting off the ground here in Alberta. This is not to say that they don't exist, because they do. But not in the same way they do out east.

There is also a deep hate for unions, in the newest Have province.
flag laurie1
Mod
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 18:07 Quote
ezekiel wrote:
I got lost at this part, how are the eastern provinces being greedy?

The amount of money that "have" provinces send to the "have not" province is absolutely ludicrous! It is clear that although oil has fueled our economy (no pun intended) it is not the only reason for our success. Until recently, things out west weren’t much better than the other large cities. This is because, the tar sands development was put on the backburner until it became economically feasible to take oil from the tar sands and refine it into light sweet crude (valuable petroleum products like gas). All the eastern provinces already know how they are going to spend the transfer/equalization payment we are going to send. This is what annoys me. There aren’t any strings attached to this money and you (eastern provinces) can do whatever the hell you want with it. You don’t have to pay it back and you can spend it as you please. Alberta is facing a crisis right now. We could use those billions of dollars and improve the infrastructure in our province. Our roads can’t keep up with our million plus population and our healthcare system sucks. It is too old and can’t keep up with the demand. I would like to see a drastic decrease in the amount of equalization payments we give to the Maritimes. I mean once their offshore rigs are done, they have absolutely no excuse for us to be giving them money. In fact, they should begin paying Alberta back some of the money they have received. It isn’t fair! Then again, nothing in life is fair.
flag bonfire
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 18:12 Quote
The transfer payments to the maritimes don't bug me that much.

Transfers to ontario/quebec drive me nuts.

During the prosperous years there should have been better fiscal management. The boom no matter the industry will slump eventually. Just basic economics. All those years of bragging about how rich they were, and bitching about having to send transfer payments, should have been spent saving, and breaking unions.

I would almost pay the government to let me break unions. I would love it. Tragically purposefully breaking unions is frowned upon and illegal in many provinces. O well, when you can't break 'em lay them all off. Seems like a fair trade.
flag ezekiel
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 18:27 Quote
laurie1 wrote:
I mean once their offshore rigs are done, they have absolutely no excuse for us to be giving them money. In fact, they should begin paying Alberta back some of the money they have received. It isn’t fair! Then again, nothing in life is fair.

The thing is, once we stop supporting provinces collectively, we're no longer a country. The plan with the equalization is that we can all one day be a prosperous nation and each province can support itself. Its not a fair process but if and when it works out, it will be worth the money given.
flag laurie1
Mod
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 18:33 Quote
ezekiel wrote:
The thing is, once we stop supporting provinces collectively, we're no longer a country. The plan with the equalization is that we can all one day be a prosperous nation and each province can support itself. Its not a fair process but if and when it works out, it will be worth the money given.

We are already no longer a country. The French have tried to separate for years from the rest of Canada and the Aboriginal people petty much hate the Federal government and have a deep resentment towards them. We are hardly a united front. We are so divided in everything from Aboriginal rights, to Francophone rights, to everything in-between. See, Alberta can use the money they give as reparation payments urgently. Half of our public schools are falling apart. We have some of the oldest and outdate infrastructure in Canada and this issue is further compounded by our ever growing population! The point is, you guys are given it but Alberta desperately needs it.
flag bonfire
Posted: Sep 9, 2008 at 21:09 Quote
laurie1 wrote:
ezekiel wrote:
The thing is, once we stop supporting provinces collectively, we're no longer a country. The plan with the equalization is that we can all one day be a prosperous nation and each province can support itself. Its not a fair process but if and when it works out, it will be worth the money given.

We are already no longer a country. The French have tried to separate for years from the rest of Canada and the Aboriginal people petty much hate the Federal government and have a deep resentment towards them. We are hardly a united front. We are so divided in everything from Aboriginal rights, to Francophone rights, to everything in-between. See, Alberta can use the money they give as reparation payments urgently. Half of our public schools are falling apart. We have some of the oldest and outdate infrastructure in Canada and this issue is further compounded by our ever growing population! The point is, you guys are given it but Alberta desperately needs it.

That is true, this province was never designed for the population boost. The biggest problem is all the transient workers. A large chunk of the easterners are being paid back east. So they use our infrastructure without paying taxes in our province. Their province is double dipping.
flag marty660
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 8:09 Quote
laurie1 wrote:
The oilfields have always existed. They might have been smaller but they aren't displacing people by excavating and exploring them. Without the west, the rest of Canada would have a ton of issues. Alberta has a shitload of resources in terms of natural gas and oil. We are a resource rich province and we give more than our fair share of revenue to the government. You guys out east are just greedy as hell. Without us, you would be freezing.

Well not really; we've been screwed over alot by the government. The fisheries would be making tonnns of income if the government had taken action 20 years ago. The off shore oil fields bring in a decent amount of money but the maritimes don't get anything. Ontario's always going to be a business district. Quebec does, however, pretty much live off wellfare haha.
I donno. I think the government helping Alberta is a good thing, they could do more helping us out here because some things (like what Ezekiel was saying) are just bull, but you're right you guys do make most of the money. It's going to hurt them in the polls though.
flag laurie1
Mod
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 8:36 Quote
marty660 wrote:
Well not really; we've been screwed over alot by the government. The fisheries would be making tonnns of income if the government had taken action 20 years ago. The off shore oil fields bring in a decent amount of money but the maritimes don't get anything. Ontario's always going to be a business district. Quebec does, however, pretty much live off wellfare haha.
I donno. I think the government helping Alberta is a good thing, they could do more helping us out here because some things (like what Ezekiel was saying) are just bull, but you're right you guys do make most of the money. It's going to hurt them in the polls though.

The fisheries are suffering because once again, you guys are too greedy! The amount of over fishing that happens each fishing season is alarming. I did a project on over fishing for a resource conflict class and the statistics were alarming. We are not talking about a few hundred thousand pounds of over fishing but rather millions of pounds of fish being illegally caught. To further compound this issue, a) it is still happening and b) fishermen are catching female fish before they can spawn their offspring. This is a big problem. If they want to protect their livelihoods, they should abide by the strict rules the government has. Unfortunately, lure of money is too great. There is nothing land-lock Alberta is doing. It’s not like we’re the ones fishing. Did I mention that this is still an ongoing disaster? As for Ontario and the automobile industry, no province should focus on just one industry as if it falls on hard times or goes “belly up,” you are done! People should have been bracing for the worse. There are only so many people that can afford a $100+ tank of gas every 10 days or so. People knew that oil was going to hit all time record highs but nothing was done. I know in my business, I was investing heavily in the oil commodities. I was paying well above double to secure shares and options in the oil and gas sectors. Why the employees didn’t see this coming at the truck plants is beyond me. Alberta can’t be your bail out forever. Once the oil is gone, have fun! A diversified economy that is involved in manufacturing, textiles, and other industries no matter how big or small is the right approach to building a strong and prosperous province. Also, a lot of Alberta based companies don’t have dumb unions. West Jet is a prime example. No union, profit share, above average wages, etc. This company is a prime example of a great business. It is also Calgary based/owned.
flag marty660
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 8:47 Quote
It's mismanagement. The problem started 20 years ago when the Europeans came through the spawning grounds with big trawl nets so close together that nothing could escape. And it took RCMP ERT teams and the Newfoundland government to stop them, not the federal fishery department, which remained strangely silent.

I've been to small town Newfoundland; I assure you, the vast majority of them follow the rules. It's their livelyhood; they're living a life that pays them sh*t all even if they break the rules; they're not about to screw around when they know that they need the fish to restock. And actually the codfish are making a comeback; my uncle got his quota (6000 pounds) in a single day.

It's not the Canadian fishermans fault.

As for the bit about the automobile industry, well, I agree with you, it's time for people to get an education (even if it's just going to college) and not live off American car companies. ...but all of this is going to lose Harper votes, regardless whether he's doing the right thing.
flag ezekiel
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 9:34 Quote
bonfire wrote:
I would almost pay the government to let me break unions. I would love it. Tragically purposefully breaking unions is frowned upon and illegal in many provinces. O well, when you can't break 'em lay them all off. Seems like a fair trade.

In all honesty if someone did try to break the union in this area, I don't think anyone would be the least bit surprised if that person turned up dead. If you look at who the CAW alone represents, its not just auto workers. They represent the food industry, they represent an electrical company and they even represent the casino workers and that's just one branch. There's 3 other CAW branches in this city alone all covering varying aspects of society.

I doubt we'll see them let go of this area until its reduced to an absolute ghost town which is a shame because its also driving out people who have nothing to do with the CAW because no one wants to invest in the area. The fact that the government has done nothing to kick start work projects outside of the CAW and other unions, is the most frustrating part of it all.
flag ezekiel
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 9:46 Quote
marty660 wrote:
As for the bit about the automobile industry, well, I agree with you, it's time for people to get an education (even if it's just going to college) and not live off American car companies.

Sorry to say but Windsor was founded on the automobile industry (I live about 4 blocks from the original Ford City), the construction of the city is directly related to the automotive industry. I would say there are probably 15 or 20 high rise buildings in this city versus well over 100 factories. Even when people do get educations, there are very few choices for work outside of skilled trades and the large majority of skilled trades are in the automotive sector. When you break it all down, there are 3 sectors of job in a city of 200, 000. You can either work in medical, food/hospitality or automotive. Aside from those 3 things, jobs are few and far between.

So its not that simple for the city to just get educated and step away from that. Which is why most residents are left with the only choice of moving away, which to me isn't right for a government to stand by and allow.
flag laurie1
Mod
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 12:22 Quote
ezekiel wrote:
If you look at who the CAW alone represents, its not just auto workers. They represent the food industry, they represent an electrical company and they even represent the casino workers and that's just one branch. There's 3 other CAW branches in this city alone all covering varying aspects of society.

You know what sucks about unions? They cost companies a ton of money to appease which results in a bunch of layoffs because the company has a certain operating budget to upkeep. Unions are extremely dangerous to several companies. Any decent worthwhile company will have exactly the same amount of benefits as what a union does minus the union fees. The head of unions easily make six figures while the people he represents make only five figures. Is this fair? Severance packages get paid to long term employees too. There really aren't any perks to having a union. You know what really pisses me off? The CAW wants West Jet to become unionized and wants to be their union leader. No offence, but people in the east need to pull their heads out of their asses and mind their own business! Maybe, this is why Alberta is so prosperous. We don't worry about this union bullshit.
flag bonfire
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 at 12:43 Quote
ezekiel wrote:
bonfire wrote:
I would almost pay the government to let me break unions. I would love it. Tragically purposefully breaking unions is frowned upon and illegal in many provinces. O well, when you can't break 'em lay them all off. Seems like a fair trade.

In all honesty if someone did try to break the union in this area, I don't think anyone would be the least bit surprised if that person turned up dead. If you look at who the CAW alone represents, its not just auto workers. They represent the food industry, they represent an electrical company and they even represent the casino workers and that's just one branch. There's 3 other CAW branches in this city alone all covering varying aspects of society.

I doubt we'll see them let go of this area until its reduced to an absolute ghost town which is a shame because its also driving out people who have nothing to do with the CAW because no one wants to invest in the area. The fact that the government has done nothing to kick start work projects outside of the CAW and other unions, is the most frustrating part of it all.

I am well aware I would be dead in a week.

There was a thing on the CBC, where they followed around some laid off auto workers. The whole point of the show was to demonstrate how hard done by these auto workers are. But it failed miserably.

When this particular plant closed they were required to give X number of jobs to the senior employees at another plant. The other plant 3 hours away each way. At first these guys all said "No, we aren't going to drive that far each day" but once they stepped out into the real world the realized that no employer in their right mind would even pay them half of what they made at the plant.

So now these guys drive 6hours a day. That right there shows how unsustainable those plants are. I hate to say it, but these unemployed people have absolutely nobody but themselves to blame for it. Like Laurie said, they are just too greedy. How can a company try to make any sort of profit when the health care costs for the workers costs more than the steel? There is no way in hell I am going to give an auto-maker 80 million if they have a union shop. I would just leverage the workers into leaving the union if they wanted the 1/800 jobs. The problem being that if you removed the union there probably would only be 30 jobs (I realize this is an exaggeration).

Out here I find there is much more drive to earn the money they are given. I am going to a tech school, so I am surrounded by tradesmen most of the day. All them hated working union shops when they were out in industry. When you are told by your fellow workers to slow down, and to not bring your own tools to the shop, because then they would all have to bring their own tools to the shop and actually do something. It is time to move on. That is the mentality that is portrayed of the east out here, now whether or not that is accurate, I don't know.

So I am sitting here typing this in this computer lab here at school and a person from global news came and interviewed me about the election. What a coincidence.


On a similar note, a friend of ours owns some fabrication shops, out here. So far he has had 3 of them go union. The instant the went union he just locked the doors, and shut the plant down. Opening it up somewhere else.

I agree with laurie, do you people out east not see how futile unions have been for your economy? Why the hell would you want to have more of them?

Zeke, I agree with your point about how the government hasn't done anything to promote industry outside of CAW. That 80 million should have gone to that.

 


Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv65 0.016305
Mobile Version of Website