What should my first DH bike be, spend about $1500.

PB Forum :: Downhill
What should my first DH bike be, spend about $1500.
Author Message
flag merbert
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 7:24 Quote
i do to men i love hard tails so much funner and you learn how to bike with one in stead of always just absorbing the impact with rear shock
flag merbert
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 7:25 Quote
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.twofortythree.com/images/2007product/dhfra/dahfra_out_r1_c1.jpg
flag merbert
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 7:26 Quote
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.twofortythree.com/images/2007product/dhfra/dahfra_out_r2_c1.jpg
flag dave99
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 17:56 Quote
Wow is there ever a lot of misinformation here. I'm glad I'm not about to drop $1500 on some of this bad advise. For starters, Kona isn't a 4-bar linkage. It's a faux bar and behaves like a single pivot with a modified rear shock path. The rear wheel moves in a pure arc about the bottom bracket pivot, just like a single pivot, due to the seatstay pivot placement. The rear wheel travel path would be different (i.e. not single-pivot) if that pivot was on the chainstay. Secondly, Giants are Maestro links. They aren't modified 4-bar linkages. They have a solid rear triangle and actuate completely differently than 4 bars or single pivots. Maestro links are very similar to DW-links (to the point of technical litigation) and a closer cousin to VPPs. Thirdly, the class of suspension isn't a reliable indicator of jump-worthiness. That was all bad advice.

Hardtails are cool and all but they're super-rough on the body and it's pretty discouraging learning by being beaten to hell through rock gardens while all your big squish friends blow through. You'll be exhausted in 1/2 a day at the bike park trying to keep up with your full-suspension buddies. Then you'll crash because you're exhausted, unfocused, and because hardtails demand so much attention to detail. Yeah a hardtail could make you a better rider (so long as you remain uninjured) but you'll suffer a lot for the image of toughness and wreck a whole bunch of rear wheels learning at Diabolus. New rear wheels are very expensive relative to a $1500 budget. They're also very time-consuming to keep spokes tight once you've flatspotted a rim. Man invented tools for a reason. Don't feel ashamed to use them wisely or let anybody make you think otherwise. Hardtail DH probably represent a single-digit percentage minority. If everybody else is riding full suspension then why shouldn't you?

My recommendation is you ask as many buddies as you can about their DH bikes at the bike park. Most importantly, ask them for permission to sit on their bikes and take note of the cockpit geometry. Try and understand what feels comfortable to you so you can isolate those geometries that matter the most to you to help you filter through the dozens of DH bike designs on the market. Generally top-tube length and head angle make very obvious differences to ride posture and handling. In the end, feel is everything. Ask if your buddies will let you pedal their bikes around the parking lot. If you're really lucky then maybe a few will even be generous and trusting enough for you to take it down a light easy run. Make sure you're within 20 lbs of your buddy or else you could blow their rear shock (it's happened to me when I loaned a friend my DH bike and I was out $150). Don't be ridiculous and ask them to launch off the biggest feature at the park - that's not gonna go anywhere except possibly ruining a friendship.

For racing in wooded regions like Diabolus, I suggest the most important feedback is how well the bike corners, especialy in tight conditions and on steeps. Races are won and lost in the corners. Take note that all the UCI World Cup racers slam their handlebars and forks as low as possible to promote good cornering and pumping.

Suspension will be difficult to assess because the spring weight and compression / rebound / platform damping parameters need to be dialed for your weight and style - it's not something you can work out in 5 minutes while borrowing a buddy's ride so keep that in mind. Set-up makes a huge difference. Check for brake-jack effects on steep where the rear suspension feels rigid under braking. Single-pivots and faux bars are more prone to this problem but a brake therapy kit can really help and completely change the handling. My friend turned into an instant animal in steep techy wooded sections after installing a brake therapy on his Trek Session 77 faux-bar.

That should be enough to get started. You'll have to figure it out on the way. Have patience and try before you buy. It's the only real way to know what's good for you.
flag CTfreerider6
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 18:08 Quote
THX ALOT FOR THE INFO.
flag sherbet
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 18:08 Quote
CTfreerider6 wrote:
THX ALOT FOR THE INFO.

- DO NOT USE ALL CAPITALS, ITS ANNOYING (and your thread/post will get deleted)
flag merbert
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 18:14 Quote
dave99 wrote:
Wow is there ever a lot of misinformation here. I'm glad I'm not about to drop $1500 on some of this bad advise. For starters, Kona isn't a 4-bar linkage. It's a faux bar and behaves like a single pivot with a modified rear shock path. The rear wheel moves in a pure arc about the bottom bracket pivot, just like a single pivot, due to the seatstay pivot placement. The rear wheel travel path would be different (i.e. not single-pivot) if that pivot was on the chainstay. Secondly, Giants are Maestro links. They aren't modified 4-bar linkages. They have a solid rear triangle and actuate completely differently than 4 bars or single pivots. Maestro links are very similar to DW-links (to the point of technical litigation) and a closer cousin to VPPs. Thirdly, the class of suspension isn't a reliable indicator of jump-worthiness. That was all bad advice.

Hardtails are cool and all but they're super-rough on the body and it's pretty discouraging learning by being beaten to hell through rock gardens while all your big squish friends blow through. You'll be exhausted in 1/2 a day at the bike park trying to keep up with your full-suspension buddies. Then you'll crash because you're exhausted, unfocused, and because hardtails demand so much attention to detail. Yeah a hardtail could make you a better rider (so long as you remain uninjured) but you'll suffer a lot for the image of toughness and wreck a whole bunch of rear wheels learning at Diabolus. New rear wheels are very expensive relative to a $1500 budget. They're also very time-consuming to keep spokes tight once you've flatspotted a rim. Man invented tools for a reason. Don't feel ashamed to use them wisely or let anybody make you think otherwise. Hardtail DH probably represent a single-digit percentage minority. If everybody else is riding full suspension then why shouldn't you?

My recommendation is you ask as many buddies as you can about their DH bikes at the bike park. Most importantly, ask them for permission to sit on their bikes and take note of the cockpit geometry. Try and understand what feels comfortable to you so you can isolate those geometries that matter the most to you to help you filter through the dozens of DH bike designs on the market. Generally top-tube length and head angle make very obvious differences to ride posture and handling. In the end, feel is everything. Ask if your buddies will let you pedal their bikes around the parking lot. If you're really lucky then maybe a few will even be generous and trusting enough for you to take it down a light easy run. Make sure you're within 20 lbs of your buddy or else you could blow their rear shock (it's happened to me when I loaned a friend my DH bike and I was out $150). Don't be ridiculous and ask them to launch off the biggest feature at the park - that's not gonna go anywhere except possibly ruining a friendship.

For racing in wooded regions like Diabolus, I suggest the most important feedback is how well the bike corners, especialy in tight conditions and on steeps. Races are won and lost in the corners. Take note that all the UCI World Cup racers slam their handlebars and forks as low as possible to promote good cornering and pumping.

Suspension will be difficult to assess because the spring weight and compression / rebound / platform damping parameters need to be dialed for your weight and style - it's not something you can work out in 5 minutes while borrowing a buddy's ride so keep that in mind. Set-up makes a huge difference. Check for brake-jack effects on steep where the rear suspension feels rigid under braking. Single-pivots and faux bars are more prone to this problem but a brake therapy kit can really help and completely change the handling. My friend turned into an instant animal in steep techy wooded sections after installing a brake therapy on his Trek Session 77 faux-bar.

That should be enough to get started. You'll have to figure it out on the way. Have patience and try before you buy. It's the only real way to know what's good for you.
ok for one a hardtail is not hard on the body unless you are just bad 2 how would a lighter easier hardtail be slower and harder to pedal that a full squishy suspention and 3 i havnt bent my new rims since i got them and there only s-type camos on my hardtail and ive been hardcore downhilling and freeriding and dirt jumping with them
flag biname
O+
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 18:46 Quote
Dont get a single pivot frame there is nothing special about single pivot, i dont see much advantages but one disadvantage, when going fast your rear end tends to bounce alot at the place of absorbing the bums,get something like a frame with the specialized FSR horselink. if your not racing, dont bother with a single pivot frame.
flag jcc1015
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 18:54 Quote
Judging by your post, I am guessing you ride mostly smooth terrain. Where I am the local hill is extremely hard on the body. Although your smoothness as a rider has alot to do with this. I disagree on the part about trying to chase down your friends on softails though. Some of my friends try to chase me down on softails, and by no means is my bike an all-out dh ht.
flag merbert
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 19:21 Quote
no man i live in BC Canada and in this town its downhill place is as bumpy as can get. especially from those dam pussys that drag there brakes and create ruts.
flag mbjz
O+
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 at 19:23 Quote
--4x-- wrote:
no man i live in BC Canada and in this town its downhill place is as bumpy as can get. especially from those dam pussys that drag there brakes and create ruts.
god i f*ckin hate those riders...totally ruins the experience for everyone
flag merbert
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 at 7:11 Quote
i know man i know
flag dave99
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 at 9:29 Quote
--4x-- wrote:
ok for one a hardtail is not hard on the body unless you are just bad 2 how would a lighter easier hardtail be slower and harder to pedal that a full squishy suspention and 3 i havnt bent my new rims since i got them and there only s-type camos on my hardtail and ive been hardcore downhilling and freeriding and dirt jumping with them

Have you ever seen Diabolus? It's rough buddy and only gets worse as you pick up speed on the descents. Actually, you have to be pretty damned good to flow through really rough rocky terrain on a hardtail. It's not impossible but don't make it sound like cake. Otherwise DH racers would all be on 3" rear suspension to improve pedaling efficiency and pumping down features. It's not like those beauty soft flowy coniferous forests in BC. It's about large exposed pointy off-camber rock with eroded clay and hardpack dirt.

I know there are places where hardtails excel at pumping and snapping out of corners and popping off jumps. You can lay the beats down on big squishers there. The really talented ELITE DH racers can also beat some sport class big squishers in rough terrain. But what makes you think hard tails are a good idea for a noob at Diabolus?
flag Termenaitor
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 at 11:35 Quote
dave99 wrote:
--4x-- wrote:
ok for one a hardtail is not hard on the body unless you are just bad 2 how would a lighter easier hardtail be slower and harder to pedal that a full squishy suspention and 3 i havnt bent my new rims since i got them and there only s-type camos on my hardtail and ive been hardcore downhilling and freeriding and dirt jumping with them

Have you ever seen Diabolus? It's rough buddy and only gets worse as you pick up speed on the descents. Actually, you have to be pretty damned good to flow through really rough rocky terrain on a hardtail. It's not impossible but don't make it sound like cake. Otherwise DH racers would all be on 3" rear suspension to improve pedaling efficiency and pumping down features. It's not like those beauty soft flowy coniferous forests in BC. It's about large exposed pointy off-camber rock with eroded clay and hardpack dirt.

I know there are places where hardtails excel at pumping and snapping out of corners and popping off jumps. You can lay the beats down on big squishers there. The really talented ELITE DH racers can also beat some sport class big squishers in rough terrain. But what makes you think hard tails are a good idea for a noob at Diabolus?
If your just starting DH it's good for teaching proper technique.
flag will54869
FL
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 at 13:09 Quote
mbjz wrote:
--4x-- wrote:
no man i live in BC Canada and in this town its downhill place is as bumpy as can get. especially from those dam pussys that drag there brakes and create ruts.
god i f*ckin hate those riders...totally ruins the experience for everyone
I like riding ruttted gnarly whooped out trails.

 
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