Choosing a Welder?

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Choosing a Welder?
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flag jakal44444
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 19:23 Quote
brass has a higher melting point then aluminum and so does steel so by the time you get the metal hot enough to weld with youll have a big hole in your frame although if its a steel frame then ure all good. try contacting a bike company and try to get some tips on welding
flag jonbikes
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 19:28 Quote
thud wrote:
ricar wrote:
Mig has the problem of cold starts. You tend to weld fast with a MIG, not always bad but the consistancy would be a killer. I would not trust a MIG welded frame. I would not buy a MIG welded frame. If you were super pro star MIG welder you could probably produce a decent frame. I would still take a TIG frame. TIG is much more controlable. You can get a fairly decent weld that is ugly with a TIG welder. You can pretty easily see if a TIG weld is bad, Porosity is easilly visable, weld ripples should not be flat or look like they are sitting on top of the peice....... I paid $1100 for my Lincoln PT175. It does not have the wave controll on A/C it is auto balance, no pulse and a 175 is WAY small for Alu in general (for thin walled Alu like frames it would definatly work but solid heavy Alu it gets small real quick). For steel it is great 1/4" plate can be done but I have never really had the need to touch that stuff.

You can go with a stick welder but you would have no high frequency stary only lift arc. There is a guy with a web site that shows how to wire HF into a stick welder, he may even have a grocery list. Also the peddals and torches are fairly pricey making it cheaper just to buy the TIG unit in the first place.
a lot of frames are mig welded theres nothing wrong with mig welded frames if you do it right you have to pre heat the metal or heat treat it its the same thing with tig difference is tig heats up a lot smaller area

Who makes MIG welded frames?

There is a HUGE difference between a MIG weld and a TIG weld. A MIG (GMAW, aka hard wire) weld is really only good for fabrication purposes where speed is an issue. A GMAW weld offers very shallow penetration, but high deposition rates, and I would not trust a frame welded by the GMAW process. If you can find an FCAW electrode wire that will match up with the material that you are welding, I would trust that. FCAW (or Flux Core Arc Welding, much different than the piece of crap self shielded wire you buy at Canadian Tire) offers deep penetration, as well as high deposition rates, however it is easily controlled in either aspect.

Tig, on the other hand, beats both processes hands down for fine work. It gives you an extremely controlable bead, very small heat affected zone, and very few impurities if done properly. It also offers great penetration, but it has a low deposition rate compared to either wire feed options.
flag hambone2
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 19:33 Quote
jakal44444 wrote:
brass has a higher melting point then aluminum and so does steel so by the time you get the metal hot enough to weld with youll have a big hole in your frame although if its a steel frame then ure all good. try contacting a bike company and try to get some tips on welding

i was just tossing this idea out there to *practice welding steel* you gotta learn the basic's before your just tossed onto a tig welder building awsome frames outta 6061 Razz
flag nicko17
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 19:34 Quote
I have made a Dj frame. First your going to need way more than a welder to make a bike frame. You could make some shortcuts by buying prebuild items. This isn't something you can do for cheap.

As for the type welder, ideally you want to Tig the frame. Mig would work i guess , but its just not the right tool for the job. Mig would only work for steel though , if you start welding aluminum frames your going to need a spool gun and good luck getting that in tight positions. Tig you have alot more control over everything. You can produce a stronger weld in these circumstances. For the frame your going to have alot of tight spots. Its not like welding a flat plate on a table. Tig is alot harder to learn though. Honestly i don't know of any bike frames that are Migged , possibly motor cycle frames , but not bicycle frames. You can braze them if you want , just get a oxy-acetylene kit. Arc welding would not be a good idea either , arc is good for when you have to weld thick material. You would likely keep blowing holes all over the frame , so don't even think of that option. I'm guessing your going to be making the frame out of steel since that would be the easiest. Tig would be the best way of doing it , plus with Tig you have much more capabilities on types of metals , thicknesses , positions.

How much money are you able to spend on just a welder. Tig welders are not cheap , even if you get a small used one your looking at least a grand. A decent one your looking at at least 2000-2500 grand to start. You can check out millers website and Lincoln electric. Those are the two big companies for welders.

For a Mig welder you can buy a used one for probably 300-600. It depends on how many amps you get. Prices you can always look up on the companies websites. Your going to want at least 150 amps.

Just check out the company websites for information on costs, machines exc. www.millerwelds.com , www.lincolnelectric.com . If you have any information about anything let me know and i will try to answer it.
flag jonbikes
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 19:35 Quote
hambone2 wrote:
jakal44444 wrote:
brass has a higher melting point then aluminum and so does steel so by the time you get the metal hot enough to weld with youll have a big hole in your frame although if its a steel frame then ure all good. try contacting a bike company and try to get some tips on welding

i was just tossing this idea out there to *practice welding steel* you gotta learn the basic's before your just tossed onto a tig welder building awsome frames outta 6061 Razz

I was kind of thinking about that as well.

Practice laying beads on a piece of plate in the flat position until you get comfortable with it, then move into a T joint in the flat position (flat position for a T joint leaves both legs on a 45 degree angle), its the easiest joint you will ever do.
flag hambone2
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 19:41 Quote
jonbikes wrote:
hambone2 wrote:
jakal44444 wrote:
brass has a higher melting point then aluminum and so does steel so by the time you get the metal hot enough to weld with youll have a big hole in your frame although if its a steel frame then ure all good. try contacting a bike company and try to get some tips on welding

i was just tossing this idea out there to *practice welding steel* you gotta learn the basic's before your just tossed onto a tig welder building awsome frames outta 6061 Razz

I was kind of thinking about that as well.

Practice laying beads on a piece of plate in the flat position until you get comfortable with it, then move into a T joint in the flat position (flat position for a T joint leaves both legs on a 45 degree angle), its the easiest joint you will ever do.

awwwww i did this is high school! haha yeah but with gas welding you learn how to control your *puddle* if you can control your *puddle* you will end up with a good bead... if you end up with a bad bead.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STSRb4q3oB4
flag dspracing
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 20:32 Quote
thud wrote:
if your looking for a machine look at lincon and dont look at spending less then a grand and if you buy a stick machine look at the wire feeders that come seperate

Stick machines make horrible mig/tig machines. With TIG/Stick you control the amperage where you want to control the voltage on a MIG machine.
flag nicko17
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 20:48 Quote
dspracing wrote:
thud wrote:
if your looking for a machine look at lincon and dont look at spending less then a grand and if you buy a stick machine look at the wire feeders that come seperate

Stick machines make horrible mig/tig machines. With TIG/Stick you control the amperage where you want to control the voltage on a MIG machine.

Stick/Arc machines aren't possible to do Mig , its not the same type of current. There are welders that have both CC and CCV that can do all processes. Those machines are no where near cheap.

Another thing i forgot to mention is consumables. For Mig and Tig you need a shielding gas. For that your going to need to buy/lease a bottle plus pay for gas. Its just another expense that's going to add to your total.
flag dspracing
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 20:52 Quote
nicko17 wrote:
dspracing wrote:
thud wrote:
if your looking for a machine look at lincon and dont look at spending less then a grand and if you buy a stick machine look at the wire feeders that come seperate

Stick machines make horrible mig/tig machines. With TIG/Stick you control the amperage where you want to control the voltage on a MIG machine.

Stick/Arc machines aren't possible to do Mig , its not the same type of current. There are welders that have both CC and CCV that can do all processes. Those machines are no where near cheap.

Another thing i forgot to mention is consumables. For Mig and Tig you need a shielding gas. For that your going to need to buy/lease a bottle plus pay for gas. Its just another expense that's going to add to your total.

Machines are still made that do both mig and stick. They are relatively cheap but like I said, produce a poor weld quality
flag madeinchinamyass
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 20:57 Quote
Wow Wow Wow, Lets not make this a thread discusing which welder does that and that welder does this, We all know there are hundreds if not thousands of those, I am looking for tips on getting started and being introduced into the welding world (though some of you have provided great advice and I thank you)

So what I learned from this thread is that TIG is more expesive than MIG, I can build a frame with a MIG, and I need a lot of practice.

Keep it coming guy's!
flag hambone2
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 at 22:26 Quote
madeinchinamyass wrote:
Wow Wow Wow, Lets not make this a thread discusing which welder does that and that welder does this, We all know there are hundreds if not thousands of those, I am looking for tips on getting started and being introduced into the welding world (though some of you have provided great advice and I thank you)

So what I learned from this thread is that TIG is more expesive than MIG, I can build a frame with a MIG, and I need a lot of practice.

Keep it coming guy's!

talk to your grandpa and see if he can hook ya up with some equiment so you could get into gas welding/ brazing.... you will learn a ton!
flag PoloRick
Posted: Jun 16, 2009 at 2:56 Quote
As someone that has been welding for a long time using lots of different equipment, I would advise you to buy the best you can afford, try and stick with the big names as if you sell later it will be easier and probably hold value better.

As for the actual welding of a frame, I would go for Tig every time. For a reason a few others have mentioned, simply heat, this is a major enemy to the frame builder, as the metal cools after welding it contracts and can cause twists in the frame.
This will cause all sorts of problems! Its not something thats easily or cheaply fixed.

As for skill required, mig is by far the easiest, Tig is by far the hardest to do to a good standard, but with enough practice anything is possible.

Have you thought about a jig to build your frame in?

You mention that your final plan is to build a steel full suss bike, make sure you do your calculations for the force loadings, as i have just designed a frame and during testing using FEA the loads where higher than even i'd expected.
flag madeinchinamyass
Posted: Jun 16, 2009 at 6:18 Quote
hambone2 wrote:
madeinchinamyass wrote:
Wow Wow Wow, Lets not make this a thread discusing which welder does that and that welder does this, We all know there are hundreds if not thousands of those, I am looking for tips on getting started and being introduced into the welding world (though some of you have provided great advice and I thank you)

So what I learned from this thread is that TIG is more expesive than MIG, I can build a frame with a MIG, and I need a lot of practice.

Keep it coming guy's!

talk to your grandpa and see if he can hook ya up with some equiment so you could get into gas welding/ brazing.... you will learn a ton!

yeah sounds like a plan I actually already have a gas welder I will start using it.
flag madeinchinamyass
Posted: Jun 16, 2009 at 6:19 Quote
PoloRick wrote:
As someone that has been welding for a long time using lots of different equipment, I would advise you to buy the best you can afford, try and stick with the big names as if you sell later it will be easier and probably hold value better.

As for the actual welding of a frame, I would go for Tig every time. For a reason a few others have mentioned, simply heat, this is a major enemy to the frame builder, as the metal cools after welding it contracts and can cause twists in the frame.
This will cause all sorts of problems! Its not something thats easily or cheaply fixed.

As for skill required, mig is by far the easiest, Tig is by far the hardest to do to a good standard, but with enough practice anything is possible.

Have you thought about a jig to build your frame in?

You mention that your final plan is to build a steel full suss bike, make sure you do your calculations for the force loadings, as i have just designed a frame and during testing using FEA the loads where higher than even i'd expected.

My final plan is to build a hartail not full susp. and yes I was planning on building a welding table and a jig once I get the hang of welding.

I will not be able to afford a TIG any time soon and will most likely go with a MIG, and when you say twist from the heat do you meen the steel will warp?
Can I learn to avoid or compensate for this?

Once agian thanks.
flag shorerider16
O+
Posted: Jun 16, 2009 at 11:36 Quote
As far as looking for info on welding itself, check out this site: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Be sure to search the forums for old threads on similar subjects first, but feel free to join up and post. Lot's of good info to be had there.

Just curious, but is there a particular reason you are so intent on building your own frame? I'm not trying to be a downer, but by time you've bought all the tools and learned enough about what your doing to do the job right, it would be cheaper and faster to buy or even have a frame made for you. Not saying it can't be done, but it's deffinately the steepest and gnarliest road to the end goal. If you really want to, go for it though. Just take the time to get it right, I'm sure you can understand why.Wink

Salute

 


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