Powered by Outside

Tubeless for DH/FR?

PB Forum :: Downhill
Tubeless for DH/FR?
  • Previous Page
Author Message
flag w-e-w
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 12:22 Quote
I posted this in Bikes, Parts, Gear but had no luck, so trying here:

I'm about due for new rims and thinking of going to 2.5 Minions UST on 823 rims... i currently run 2.5 Minions with midweight tubes on 729s

I'd like to hear your experiences or accounts of running tubeless for FR/DH.. performance/reliability/maintenance.. pros and cons..

Do the dh pros run tubeless?.. Peaty, Rennie, Hill, Minar?

Thanks
flag
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 12:41 Quote
I use Michelin tubeless on mavic 823's and id have to say, it just feels awesome. Compared to nontubeless, Tubeless are lighter, and have less vibration due to no tubes, and grips better since it doesn't have friction between the tire and a tube. And you wont get any pinch flats.

The downside with tubeless is that it can be a B%tch to inflate with a regular pump, so I recommend usin an air compressor (makes life easier)Also ive noticed rarley that the tires burp when I hit something very hard.

For Freeride Dont use tubeless its not nessecary. you tires will burp and ull have to keep pumping air into them.But for Downhill I would encourage anyone to try tubeless just because you can feel a difference in tire preformence. ( and tires 100% matter in Downhill)

As for pros, I know Minnar uses tubless, Rennie, Hill, Peaty, Cedric, Graves, and some others don't. Duncan Riffle im pretty sure switches off with tubeless and non. its all preference



and ive never heard of people using tubeless for Freeride

hope this helps
flag mattbeer
O+ FL
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 12:42 Quote
some pros do use tubeless like minnaar and old honda team, as well as some of the MSC team. they run deemax wheelsets which are the 823 rims. mavic has the best quality and the 823 sits somewhere in between the 729 and 721 for strength and weight. i'm a fairly light rider (150lbs) and the 823s lasted me two seasons.

as for tires, deffinetly stick with maxxis ust and use some sort of sealant in them. not pinch flatting, rolling weight and better traction and obvious benefits. if you do flat a ust tire then you'll deffinetly have flatted one with a tube in it. unless it's a major slice in the tire, then the sealant should work (you would have sliced the tube anyways). building the wheel in a bit more work because of only one wall of the rim being drilled out.

you'll have to try it out and see if it's for you or not though. if you're not into building a new wheelset than consider some stan's rim strips and use regular tires and rims. this give you way more selection or rims and tires, but the maxxis/823 is a personal favourite, tubeless or not.
flag w-e-w
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 13:07 Quote
it's that notion of "burping" that keeps me hesitant..

I ride "freeride" (whatever that means these days) and I do the occasional race... i'd say i'm harder on my wheels/tires doing dh than freeriding... if and when I huck, for example, it is always to tranny.. so i think even doing a road gap is easier on the tires/wheels than maybe rolling the tire over in a berm or pinning through a rock garden..

i have no issues with flats.. last flat I had was 2 seasons ago and it was a 4" gash through the sidewall that would have taken anything out...

I am not looking to make a living out of biking, break any records, or quite my day job for racing... but i love to ride fast, and i love feeling every ounce of performance out of my bike.. and i like wrenching it too.. so the notion of a lighter, better performing wheelset is tempting... but i would not want to f-around with a burping tire out on the trail..

tough call... i've got a friend with 823s and tubeless on a new bike.. maybe i'll have to borrow his wheels and see how it goes for myself... except we just got snow.. next year.. shiaaat
flag emubritish
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 14:28 Quote
ive only ever had an issue with burping with a single ply tire (wtb nanoraptor 2.4) at a super-low psi (around 15) and landing a bit sideways... in almost any case, you only get burping when the tire rolls off the rim, which is hard to in the first place, harder still when running tubeless, and even harder still when using a real tubeless rim and tire. i was going "ghetto tubeless" at the time, with a 24" stretched over the rim, with the tire mounted inside, theres an article about it on nsmb if your intrested in the specifics.

unless you like landing moto-whips without bringing the tail back in line, riding superlight xc tires, and a psi below 20, you should be fine
flag Termenaitor
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 15:12 Quote
I use it and its awsome. im a racer so it does only good for me. its lighter, no flats in the middle of a run, better grip(also because the tire isnt as oval as it is with a tube) and if you stick to a 2 ply tire it wont burp at all. i mean i do moto whips and i dont have the slightest burp. go for it man.
flag nateb
FL
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 15:33 Quote
I run ust minion 2.5's on mavic 823's and have burped air quite a bit, I run around 30 lbs pressure, maybe a bit less when I go a few weeks without checking on them. Only rode my dh bike 3 days last year, two of those days I rolled my front tire off the rim losing all the air and leaving me to limp it to the bottom. I still love it though. Feels awesome.

nate
flag w-e-w
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 16:44 Quote
that'd be about enough to count me out... i need confidence in my gear.. more than confidence.. faith!.. that would sketch me out... thanks for the input.
flag choreducker
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 16:47 Quote
I run the USt 2.5 on 823. I ride 5 or 6 days a week for the past 5 months and have never had a failure. Lovin it. Ride the Woodlot lots, Kamloops and Kelowna
flag billfromthehill
Posted: Oct 25, 2007 at 23:01 Quote
Run tubeless on all my bikes for over 2 years now. DH racing, freeriding, only had one flat in two seasons. Nail went right though tire, now I run stans sealant in there. I can run over nails and literally hear it seal up in seconds, never burped but I run Michelin's when I need to lower the pressure. Minnions were great at 30 psi plus. So much more realiable for racing and freeriding then tubed, or at least it has been for me.
flag pbuser16709
Posted: Oct 26, 2007 at 4:36 Quote
Just to clear up a few things:

Friction between the tire and tube will have essentially no effect on anything. It's completely trivial.

The shape of a tire with or without tubes will be the same.

UST tires on UST rims are less likely to burp. Non-UST tires on non-UST rims that have been converted to a tubeless set-up us usually where the burping reputation originates, though it can still happen with a full UST set-up.
flag mafu
Posted: Oct 26, 2007 at 5:23 Quote
r-m-r wrote:
Just to clear up a few things:

Friction between the tire and tube will have essentially no effect on anything. It's completely trivial.

The shape of a tire with or without tubes will be the same.

UST tires on UST rims are less likely to burp. Non-UST tires on non-UST rims that have been converted to a tubeless set-up us usually where the burping reputation originates, though it can still happen with a full UST set-up.

With tubes, you have two structures to be deformed by the ground: the tube and the tire.
This makes a more rigid assembly to "read" the terrain.
In some cases, a tire can be deformed when inflated, or because the tube doesn't fill all the spaces inside or, in some point, the two structures friction avoid the perfect match.
This explain the tubeless tire better performance.
flag pbuser16709
Posted: Oct 26, 2007 at 6:27 Quote
mafu wrote:
r-m-r wrote:
Just to clear up a few things:

Friction between the tire and tube will have essentially no effect on anything. It's completely trivial.

The shape of a tire with or without tubes will be the same.

UST tires on UST rims are less likely to burp. Non-UST tires on non-UST rims that have been converted to a tubeless set-up us usually where the burping reputation originates, though it can still happen with a full UST set-up.

With tubes, you have two structures to be deformed by the ground: the tube and the tire.
This makes a more rigid assembly to "read" the terrain.
In some cases, a tire can be deformed when inflated, or because the tube doesn't fill all the spaces inside or, in some point, the two structures friction avoid the perfect match.
This explain the tubeless tire better performance.

Actually, it just provides misleading information that sounds like science. I don't mean to be rude, but that's how I see it. Let me explain:

The more flexible the tire assembly, the better it follows the terrain. A stiffer tire provides more damping, which can help with control, but not because it follows the terrain more perfectly.

UST tires have extra rubber to make them airtight. Essentially, they have a built-in tube that's usually heavier than a very light tube and has a greater stiffening effect. All you have to do is handle a light tube and you can see it's incapable of adding much stiffness.

The main benefit of UST tires is that you can run them at such a low pressure that they bottom out against the rim, yet don't get flats, as would happen if you did this with tubes. This low pressure adds a little extra suspension travel and keeps them from bouncing around, but is very hard on your rims. If you protect the rims by keeping the pressure up, then you're right back where you started with a tubed system, in terms of ground tracking and all that.

A tire will only be defomed on inflation if it's mounted incorrectly or manufactured incorrectly. A properly mounted and manufactured tire will not be deformed when inflated. UST tires are usually made with a little tighter tolerances, but the difference is minimal.

A tube fills all the spaces is has to fill. In the unlikely event there's uneven tension in the tube, it will usually work itself out as the tire is flexed all over the place during the first few seconds of a run. The only way this won't happen is if the inside of the tire and the outside of the tube are extremely clean (no dust and no talc on the tube). If this happens - and it's not likely - it still won't make an appreciabe difference. I can't see how a tiny bit of extra tension in a tube - even a heavy tube - will cause appreciable changes in a tire's performance or deform it in any measurable way. Not that I think this is even likely to happen.

The difference between tubeless and tubed systems are only:

1. Weight (doesn't have to be this way, though, if you use light tubes)
2. Reduced chance of flats with a good tubeless set-up
3. Lower tire pressure is possible with tubeless, but at the expense of rim damage
flag mafu
Posted: Oct 26, 2007 at 8:26 Quote
r-m-r wrote:
mafu wrote:
r-m-r wrote:
Just to clear up a few things:

Friction between the tire and tube will have essentially no effect on anything. It's completely trivial.

The shape of a tire with or without tubes will be the same.

UST tires on UST rims are less likely to burp. Non-UST tires on non-UST rims that have been converted to a tubeless set-up us usually where the burping reputation originates, though it can still happen with a full UST set-up.

With tubes, you have two structures to be deformed by the ground: the tube and the tire.
This makes a more rigid assembly to "read" the terrain.
In some cases, a tire can be deformed when inflated, or because the tube doesn't fill all the spaces inside or, in some point, the two structures friction avoid the perfect match.
This explain the tubeless tire better performance.

Actually, it just provides misleading information that sounds like science. I don't mean to be rude, but that's how I see it. Let me explain:

The more flexible the tire assembly, the better it follows the terrain. A stiffer tire provides more damping, which can help with control, but not because it follows the terrain more perfectly.

UST tires have extra rubber to make them airtight. Essentially, they have a built-in tube that's usually heavier than a very light tube and has a greater stiffening effect. All you have to do is handle a light tube and you can see it's incapable of adding much stiffness.

The main benefit of UST tires is that you can run them at such a low pressure that they bottom out against the rim, yet don't get flats, as would happen if you did this with tubes. This low pressure adds a little extra suspension travel and keeps them from bouncing around, but is very hard on your rims. If you protect the rims by keeping the pressure up, then you're right back where you started with a tubed system, in terms of ground tracking and all that.

A tire will only be defomed on inflation if it's mounted incorrectly or manufactured incorrectly. A properly mounted and manufactured tire will not be deformed when inflated. UST tires are usually made with a little tighter tolerances, but the difference is minimal.

A tube fills all the spaces is has to fill. In the unlikely event there's uneven tension in the tube, it will usually work itself out as the tire is flexed all over the place during the first few seconds of a run. The only way this won't happen is if the inside of the tire and the outside of the tube are extremely clean (no dust and no talc on the tube). If this happens - and it's not likely - it still won't make an appreciabe difference. I can't see how a tiny bit of extra tension in a tube - even a heavy tube - will cause appreciable changes in a tire's performance or deform it in any measurable way. Not that I think this is even likely to happen.

The difference between tubeless and tubed systems are only:

1. Weight (doesn't have to be this way, though, if you use light tubes)
2. Reduced chance of flats with a good tubeless set-up
3. Lower tire pressure is possible with tubeless, but at the expense of rim damage

The better perfomance I have talking about is between the same tire with or without tubes.
I'm using a pair of Maxxis Minion dh tires on tubeless mode, that I have used before with normal tubes.
The diference in performance is easily perceptible.
If the tube do not stay perfect inside, the tire can be deformed when inflated.
Some tires are hard to center the wire beads with tubes. This deforms the tires too.
Not science.
It's experience.
flag strider
O+
Posted: Oct 26, 2007 at 8:40 Quote
If your running tubeless you might want to checkout stans no tube. All you add is just the Secret formula (glue) to your tires before putting them on the rim. The bottle of fluid is only about $25 and it will last you. you wouldn't believe how many times its saved me from putting in a new tube. Plus Stan at interbike always does an awesome display every year at interbike( we watched him as he used his system on a regular tire(non tubless) then drill about 20 screws into it).

Just a heads up
  • Previous Page

 


Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv56 0.011309
Mobile Version of Website