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Repaired (re-welded) frame bought unknowingly - What Now?

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Repaired (re-welded) frame bought unknowingly - What Now?
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flag bc-biker
O+
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 20:54 Quote
Okay, looking for some opinions and insight from the riders here. I'll try to keep it short. - So I bought a frame from a semi local seller on Pinkbike. I met the guy and could see the frame was re-painted and did not think much of it, ad said it was in great shape and it looked alright. Later I am checking it out at home and see the welds look really crappy around the seat tube/upper shock mount area. It did not look right and seeing as the frame was re-painted I got suspicious and went on the sellers profile and found a picture of the frame where it was re-welded and smoothed out and then obviously painted over.

Email the seller and the story I'm getting is that he bought it like that and painted over it just for fun, not to hide it, and he can't see the problem I have with this. He says he rode it and it is just fine. I find what he has done dishonest and dangerous and He won't take the frame back, won't go part way to replace the front triangle and is upset that I am bothering him. His reasoning is he has been ripped off as well so to bad and he is starting a business and needs the money.

First - as far as I know any welding on aluminum weakens it unless done professionally and heat treated so I don't feel safe riding it.

Second - I find this dishonest to knowingly hide details from buyers that would make a huge difference in decisions (I never would have considered buying a broken frame).

Third - Is this where we are on the buy and sell? Cover your butt and if you get screwed pass it on to the next person so everyone is miserable? After a little searching it seems a lot of people are losing money or bikes/parts on here.

What do you think - Am I right/wrong? Am I being ureasonable? Do I let it go? Small claims court? Post in Scammers section?(He has a lot for sale still) What?

I have bought and sold on here and other sites and would do my best to make a buyer happy if he felt he was wronged. Where does it go from here?
flag CarbonOS
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:05 Quote
Definitly get this guy as much publicity as possible to help others avoid getting scammed. It doesn't even matter if he was screwed over in the past, he's screwing you over now.
flag garthm
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:07 Quote
yeah man that really sucks, post his username up in the scammer thread and heck post it in here to just so he does cheat anyone else, other than that i dont much about small claims court or anything but good luck and i hope you get it fixed or get your money back
flag Graphxxx
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:14 Quote
f*cking c*nt scammers... I hate them so freaking much.
flag superl8
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:23 Quote
Hopefully it'll hold??? Maybe you can have it fixed by a more skilled welder? In the meantime I don't think there is much you can do but bitch on here and ride it until it breaks again then have it fixed properly. Let's see the pictures.
flag bc-biker
O+
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:29 Quote
That is the problem - is there a more skilled welder? Is that an option? I worked at a shop for quite a while and any breakage or warranty was replaced never repaired. If it worked well or could be done properly wouldn't more people do it? In searching I found nothing positive.
flag k-towntrailryder
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 at 21:49 Quote
I would notify pb and see if they can do anything....

Forget about fixing it, if it broke once, it will break again.
When aluminum goes it just snaps....no warning. I wouldn't ride it.
flag BungedUP
O+
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 0:36 Quote
bc-biker wrote:
That is the problem - is there a more skilled welder? Is that an option? I worked at a shop for quite a while and any breakage or warranty was replaced never repaired. If it worked well or could be done properly wouldn't more people do it? In searching I found nothing positive.

You've lost the heat treating in the weld area at this point. It's hard to say how large the heat affected area is as well. Aluminum absorbs heat much better than steel does, so if you are welding a joint an inch long, you've probably reheated a fairly large part of the frame. Aluminum does age harden, but I'm skeptical that's really going to help you out here in this case. Rewelding the structure again could be done, but its likely to not really help you much. If the process was done improperly in the first place, such as if the aluminum was not cleaned to an extremely high degree with degreaser and a stainless steel brush or scotch brite wheel, then the weld area may have a lot of impurities in it know (that's bad with aluminum especially). It is possible to strip the paint and then get the frame heat treated, but it really isn't worth doing. At that point, you are better off getting a different frame (that's my opinion anyway).

you might be able to ride it just fine, if you aren't overly stressing the structure - you might be under the critical stress point by a considerable margin. Or, you might not. I certainly wouldn't hit any big jumps with it, but if you are using it for fairly normal trail rides, I would think that you could keep an eye out for buckling/cracks, and you'd be ok (though only if you don't have much other choice).

The seller definitely is in the wrong in this case, and I hope they feel ashamed (I'm assuming that may have to do with their defensive response). Unfortunately, some people lack common decency.
flag Hummeroid
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 1:06 Quote
This is why you use Paypal for ALL these types of transactions. If you did, file a claim with paypal as "Item was significantly not as described". They will straighten it out and get your money back.

I hope you did use paypal, for your sake, and for the sake of sticking it to him.


BTW, what frame is this? I am a heat treater professionally, might be able to help a lot depending on alloy.
flag midlandrider
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 1:17 Quote
What brand bike is it?
flag laurie1
Mod
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 7:48 Quote
The seller is wrong for not disclosing the frame’s current condition however, there is likely nothing you can do. Everything that is bought used off of sites like Ebay, Pinkbike, Craigslist, and all that is normally “As Is” unless otherwise stated in the ads. However, even then, unless you are an authorized retailer, you can’t sell items with a warranty. There are a lot of dishonest buyers (you send items COD and no one picks it up) and sellers (selling broken parts, parts not as described or cracked/dented frames) on this site and most of it can be contributed to the general user age. Unfortunately, the administrators have decided to take one of the key tools for buyers and sellers away which was the join date. This helped to add some validity to the person. I mean I would prefer to do a deal with a long-term member that has been on the site for years rather than a member being here for a couple weeks.

I guarantee you that if he knew about the crack and repainted it to deceive you; he more than likely already looked into replacing the front triangle. Crash replacement frames/triangles aren’t that cheap. You will probably end up paying more for a front triangle than you did for the frame. I guess one thing you can look forward to is that if he is opening a business, he will be out of business very soon with the ethics and morals that he operates on.

As for doing something about it, I would personally just take it as a learning experience. Re-welding aluminium is difficult and expensive and you lose some of the structural integrity. Is it really worth spending money on trying to fix the frame this way? I don’t think so. There are definitely a lot of slick people out there that are willing to pull a quick one over unsuspecting people on the site. I don’t think that will ever change. People are people and trying to make a quick buck at someone else’s expense. Buyer beware. You are not by any means being unreasonable. The least he could do is refund your money. But really, once a deal is done, the ball is in his court as to what he wants to do. Unfortunate, yes but if he wants to please people and sell his other items, he would work with you in solving the issue. As for small claims, it is not worth your time or money. The court costs alone will probably be more than you paid for the frame and you need adequate proof that he misrepresented the item. The ads would have to be printed and you would have to prove your case. However, since it is a BuySell, things are often sold “As Is.” You would have to look at the legal part of PB to see how they classify the BuySell. I know they don’t take any risk or responsibility but it might have something about the third parties involved. For a 50/50 chance at winning, it probably isn’t worth it. However, if you want to teach him a lesson, do it. Sometimes, it’s not about the money but rather the principles. It doesn’t seem like he is interested in working with you to solve the problem and that is an issue when it comes to trying to appease you. If he doesn’t care, he won’t make an effort to do anything. All labeling a scammer will do is make him come back with another account and reposting his ads. It seems like you have already tried working it out person to person and it didn’t workout so well. I guess you can just keep on trying and hopefully, he just gets tired of you hassling him and he will just say f*ck it, give me the frame back and I’ll give you your money back. Anyways, good luck.
flag Malicious
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 8:10 Quote
BungedUp is right. If the welding prep wasn't done properly the first time there's no telling how many impurities there are in the weld as well as the extent of the heat affected zone (HAZ). If it were mild steel I wouldnt be too concerned about repairing it again but aluminium is another kettle of fish.

This punk deserves a kick in the nuts every day for the rest of his life.
flag simondignard
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 8:23 Quote
That sucks but before buying something, check out his profile and if you see some repainting ask why, you don't deserve to get that but please, you are buying used bikes, so be a bit more curious.
flag bc-biker
O+
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 8:55 Quote
It's a DH bike so riding it easy is not an option really. I can tell by the weld it was not done well, and not cleaned or prepped because the paint is burned off only a short distance from the weld. He is still answering my e-mails so I think he knows this was not right so i'm hoping he will man up here and do the right thing. Thanks for the input guys.
flag sam4412
Posted: Oct 18, 2008 at 9:13 Quote
i brought a orange frame off the old MBUK forums and i didnt notice for about 6 weeks later when i striped the paint that it had been re welded, i sent it to orange for a powdercoat and they siad it shoudl be fine and the welds are strong, even tho they looked crappy around the old ones , they still looked strong so i still sold it
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