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E-MTB The best thing since sliced bread!

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E-MTB The best thing since sliced bread!
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flag fuzzhead45
O+
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 7:32 Quote
If a BIKE with a MOTOR on it is not your definition of a MOTOR-BIKE, then I am curious what is?
flag jbrown-15
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 9:06 Quote
fuzzhead45 wrote:
If a BIKE with a MOTOR on it is not your definition of a MOTOR-BIKE, then I am curious what is?

It would be a pedal assist bicycle. Can you ride a MOTORBIKE without it turned on?
flag BenLow2019
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 9:45 Quote
There's different Classes of e-bikes. All have motors. Some have pedal assist and some don't: Class 1, 2 , 3 & 4. And there's electric motorcycles also. Calling a bike a "motorbike" because it has a motor isn't standard in the industry - it's a personal choice. Just like some people will call any flavor of soda a "Coke" too. That's just the way they like to communicate.
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/what-are-electric-bike-classes-and-why-do-they-matter.22738/
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 9:56 Quote
I had a go of an e bike and yea the top speed sucks and the motor cuts out but they certainly are not pedal 'assist' at 0 -15mph, more like you are assisting it. With about 5-10% effort from your legs you accelerate as if you are putting in 60% effort on a normal bike. Something that assists something is not doing the 'majority' of the work. The crank sensor is more there as a way to bypass throttle restrictions. When I tried an ebike I turned the cranks a bit and the bike jolted forwards as if it had been switched on, it's not a natural feeling at all. Now I'm not going to say it isn't fun, it's a lot of fun when you first get on one and shoot off, and climbing is obviously a lot easier, but past the cut off limit the bike sucked, my sb165 just keeps accelerating past 15mph like it's nothing, the ebike felt like I was trying to accelerate a truck with all the extra weight and drag in the drivetrain and suddenly when power cuts out the agility also seems to suffer and stops hiding the bikes heft.

For me they make everything way too easy at low speeds then become absolute pigs at high speed, the bike goes from feeling like an xc bike to a lead weight within a matter of seconds of acceleration.
flag bocomtb
O+
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 11:15 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
I had a go of an e bike and yea the top speed sucks and the motor cuts out but they certainly are not pedal 'assist' at 0 -15mph, more like you are assisting it. With about 5-10% effort from your legs you accelerate as if you are putting in 60% effort on a normal bike.
What motor/mode were you using? The Shimano E-7000 on my bike in Boost mode behaves like this. 15-20 degrees on the pedals and you get a kick forward with minimal effort.

Putting it into Trail or Eco mode really increases the level of effort you need to put into the pedals.

IMO, ebikes really shine if you live in an area with steep climbs and even steeper descents. It lets you churn way more laps than you ever could on a normal bike. And the weight disappears once you're descending anything that's steep enough to negate the need for pedaling.
flag gnarnaimo
O+
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 12:40 Quote
ITT people who spout their opinions as facts and have nothing to actually offer but arguments fuelled by lack of cognitive thought.
flag d-man
O+
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 15:32 Quote
bocomtb wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
I had a go of an e bike and yea the top speed sucks and the motor cuts out but they certainly are not pedal 'assist' at 0 -15mph, more like you are assisting it. With about 5-10% effort from your legs you accelerate as if you are putting in 60% effort on a normal bike.
What motor/mode were you using? The Shimano E-7000 on my bike in Boost mode behaves like this. 15-20 degrees on the pedals and you get a kick forward with minimal effort.

Putting it into Trail or Eco mode really increases the level of effort you need to put into the pedals.

IMO, ebikes really shine if you live in an area with steep climbs and even steeper descents. It lets you churn way more laps than you ever could on a normal bike. And the weight disappears once you're descending anything that's steep enough to negate the need for pedaling.

Yep, riding a 21 Trek Rail with Bosch motor. Eco is similar to pedalling a 38lb free ride bike, emtb is variable as in put a little effort get a little help put big power down and it really boosts. Turbo is full boost.
The Bosch has very little motor drag with it turned off, I have used it without the battery installed and it works really good. Have an extra battery cover ordered for rides with non Ebike friends. Battery weighs about 7kg I believe so without it the bike weighs in around 35 pounds.
flag fuzzhead45
O+
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 17:50 Quote
A shimano EP8 has a max assist ratio of 400% meaning the motor is doing the vast majority of the work. Requiring the rider to put in their small amount of work seems arbitrary from a propulsion standpoint and really only serves the purpose of allowing a motorbike to sneak into areas bicycles are allowed by masquerading as a bicycle.

I do not see any reason to not allow a throttle only bike if you are going to allow these motor-assistbutreallythemotorisdoinhmostofthework bikes. Throttle only bikes would also allow more elderly/handicapped/non athletic people access to the sport, and would only cause similar wear and tear to the trails as current ebikes.
flag gnarnaimo
O+
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 18:13 Quote
gnarnaimo wrote:
ITT people who spout their opinions as facts and have nothing to actually offer but arguments fuelled by lack of cognitive thought.

fuzzhead45 wrote:
A shimano EP8 has a max assist ratio of 400% meaning the motor is doing the vast majority of the work. Requiring the rider to put in their small amount of work seems arbitrary from a propulsion standpoint and really only serves the purpose of allowing a motorbike to sneak into areas bicycles are allowed by masquerading as a bicycle.

I do not see any reason to not allow a throttle only bike if you are going to allow these motor-assistbutreallythemotorisdoinhmostofthework bikes. Throttle only bikes would also allow more elderly/handicapped/non athletic people access to the sport, and would only cause similar wear and tear to the trails as current ebikes.

Thanks for the example.
flag jbrown-15
Posted: Mar 18, 2021 at 23:00 Quote
d-man wrote:
bocomtb wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
I had a go of an e bike and yea the top speed sucks and the motor cuts out but they certainly are not pedal 'assist' at 0 -15mph, more like you are assisting it. With about 5-10% effort from your legs you accelerate as if you are putting in 60% effort on a normal bike.
What motor/mode were you using? The Shimano E-7000 on my bike in Boost mode behaves like this. 15-20 degrees on the pedals and you get a kick forward with minimal effort.

Putting it into Trail or Eco mode really increases the level of effort you need to put into the pedals.

IMO, ebikes really shine if you live in an area with steep climbs and even steeper descents. It lets you churn way more laps than you ever could on a normal bike. And the weight disappears once you're descending anything that's steep enough to negate the need for pedaling.

Yep, riding a 21 Trek Rail with Bosch motor. Eco is similar to pedalling a 38lb free ride bike, emtb is variable as in put a little effort get a little help put big power down and it really boosts. Turbo is full boost.
The Bosch has very little motor drag with it turned off, I have used it without the battery installed and it works really good. Have an extra battery cover ordered for rides with non Ebike friends. Battery weighs about 7kg I believe so without it the bike weighs in around 35 pounds.

I do something similar when I ride with buddies without ebikes, just adjusted the power level in eco so that it feels like I'm riding a regular bike.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Mar 19, 2021 at 6:36 Quote
bocomtb wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
I had a go of an e bike and yea the top speed sucks and the motor cuts out but they certainly are not pedal 'assist' at 0 -15mph, more like you are assisting it. With about 5-10% effort from your legs you accelerate as if you are putting in 60% effort on a normal bike.
What motor/mode were you using? The Shimano E-7000 on my bike in Boost mode behaves like this. 15-20 degrees on the pedals and you get a kick forward with minimal effort.

Putting it into Trail or Eco mode really increases the level of effort you need to put into the pedals.

IMO, ebikes really shine if you live in an area with steep climbs and even steeper descents. It lets you churn way more laps than you ever could on a normal bike. And the weight disappears once you're descending anything that's steep enough to negate the need for pedaling.

Yes it was a Shimano E7000 set on the setting one below boost from what the guy said. Like you say I turned the cranks a few degrees and got jolted forwards. It was impressive and fun but not natural at all....and as I say when I went past 15mph it's like the bike just changed personality.
flag bocomtb
O+
Posted: Mar 19, 2021 at 7:09 Quote
fuzzhead45 wrote:
A shimano EP8 has a max assist ratio of 400% meaning the motor is doing the vast majority of the work. Requiring the rider to put in their small amount of work seems arbitrary from a propulsion standpoint and really only serves the purpose of allowing a motorbike to sneak into areas bicycles are allowed by masquerading as a bicycle.

I do not see any reason to not allow a throttle only bike if you are going to allow these motor-assistbutreallythemotorisdoinhmostofthework bikes. Throttle only bikes would also allow more elderly/handicapped/non athletic people access to the sport, and would only cause similar wear and tear to the trails as current ebikes.
Power output is still capped at 250W. Which is 1/3 of a horse power according to teh googles. Long, long ways from a 250 or 450 dirt bike which puts out 40+ horse power. Personally, I am not opposed to allowing class 2 eMTBs (with a throttle) on MTB trails for reasons of expanding the sport to the elderly, handicapped, and the non-athletic.

If you are concerned about wear and tear on trails from ebikes, check out this study eMTB vs MTB vs dirt bike. Spoiler alert, the eMTB does hardly any additional wear and tear compared with a regular MTB.

If you just hate the idea of something with a motor showing up on your local trails, well, we can't help. Maybe you're hung up on a certain definition of a motor?
flag bocomtb
O+
Posted: Mar 19, 2021 at 7:29 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:

Yes it was a Shimano E7000 set on the setting one below boost from what the guy said. Like you say I turned the cranks a few degrees and got jolted forwards. It was impressive and fun but not natural at all....and as I say when I went past 15mph it's like the bike just changed personality.
Even the trail mode on the E7000 is a tad jumpy. But the overall assist level is much lower compared to boost. Other motors, like the Bosch, supposedly have smoother power output but I don't have personal experience.

If you have to be on the pedals a lot to maintain speed over 15mph then I can see where the motor constantly cutting out would be annoying. Luckily in North America our eMTBs can legally provide assist up to 20mph so you get less of that sensation.

You tried an eMTB so props. Not everyone needs one. For me, eMTB is a great recovery and skill-training tool. For some, eMTB is the only way they can partake in the sport.
flag d-man
O+
Posted: Mar 19, 2021 at 7:54 Quote
bocomtb wrote:
fuzzhead45 wrote:
A shimano EP8 has a max assist ratio of 400% meaning the motor is doing the vast majority of the work. Requiring the rider to put in their small amount of work seems arbitrary from a propulsion standpoint and really only serves the purpose of allowing a motorbike to sneak into areas bicycles are allowed by masquerading as a bicycle.

I do not see any reason to not allow a throttle only bike if you are going to allow these motor-assistbutreallythemotorisdoinhmostofthework bikes. Throttle only bikes would also allow more elderly/handicapped/non athletic people access to the sport, and would only cause similar wear and tear to the trails as current ebikes.
Power output is still capped at 250W. Which is 1/3 of a horse power according to teh googles. Long, long ways from a 250 or 450 dirt bike which puts out 40+ horse power. Personally, I am not opposed to allowing class 2 eMTBs (with a throttle) on MTB trails for reasons of expanding the sport to the elderly, handicapped, and the non-athletic.

If you are concerned about wear and tear on trails from ebikes, check out this study eMTB vs MTB vs dirt bike. Spoiler alert, the eMTB does hardly any additional wear and tear compared with a regular MTB.

If you just hate the idea of something with a motor showing up on your local trails, well, we can't help. Maybe you're hung up on a certain definition of a motor?
Trying to convince the haters is a waste of time and energy.
flag bocomtb
O+
Posted: Mar 19, 2021 at 8:07 Quote
Fair point, d-man. I may as well be convincing someone to switch political parties.

 


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