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Angle Headsets: What's Your Experience?

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Angle Headsets: What's Your Experience?
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flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 5:27 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
I suspect that it will be shorter. .

yeah definately will be based on those dimensions from haggard. They are based on the same total stack (bar height compared to BB) so the RAD will be fractionally shorter with an angle set. Like 1mm maybe??

I wouldn't expect a 1 to 1.5mm shorter total reach , with same total stack, to affect RAD much. An online triangle calculator will give you the numbers.
flag HaggeredShins
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 6:39 Quote
Good call, RAD drops, something I should have included there (personally I don't think its the measurement that matters for fit but that's my own philosophy Wink ).

That model assumes total/final stack is maintained for a rider's preference, which is arbitrary in this case and obviously the frame is just random mtb-like numbers so YMWV with real world geo. These measurements will be slightly accentuated once you factor in a stem as well. Real world frames will see a different reduction in cockpit because the geo I plugged in is really starting with an L-XL stack and a M-L reach.

This would be an interesting thing to make a purposeful calculator for because I haven't seen one out there that provides fit values based on bike config. A big takeaway is that these numbers will be different depending on geometry, the parts involved, the size of the bike, and where in the ht the angleset pivot is actually locating to. When I dropped one on my old 26 Knolly, whether accurate or not I measured ->3mm total/final reach with the t square so just bumped the stem up one size since the frame was already cramped.

@Cpembo6 I'm interested in what geo calc you were using to run this?
flag sonofawil
O+
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 7:33 Quote
englertracing wrote:
Cane creek weren't the first.
But they certainly hold true to their namesake and creek.


Get a works
I've used them, and installed them in friends bikes. Also true to their namesake they work

I like this. It's a good mnemonic. Maybe it was just their successful marketing but I kept hearing about CC first in videos and websites. I'm definitely reading more success stories here with Works - acknowledging the moisture problem around the top bearings (not a big deal because it's pretty dry where I ride). I'm definitely leaning towards Works.
flag sonofawil
O+
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 7:47 Quote
Cpembo6 wrote:
Thanks Haggard Shins.
Nice diagram!
You've certainly got me there. Yes, the reach in that scenario would be increasing by around 5mm, if there was a long enough steerer in existence and a large stack of spacers Big Grin

however I beleive if you use a more realistic example, (say 1 to 5 degrees) you might see a different result. Measuring final reach/stack from the BB position (real world riding position) not the ground.

I'm more than happy to be wrong and learn something from this. But I keep running the numbers and they just dont show decreased reach.

Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread Confused I quite enjoy nerding out on MTB stuff.

The OP doesn't mind. This was fun to watch. I think you guys were both correct in your intent, if not the literal definition of your comments. Yeah, the true geometric reach does change as shown in the diagram, as does the front-center. But, also, that slacker angle is going to put your cockpit back a few mm (more if you have a lot of spacers), changing your body position slightly while riding. Technically that's not the exact definition of "reach" or even "effective top tube" since both are supposed to be measured from the head tube not the stem, but it's an important consideration and it is often what I'm getting at when I use those terms with respect to how it feels to sit on a bike. All that said, I don't think that'll be a problem for us. My son has the stem pretty close to the head tube so the change will be minimal.
flag sonofawil
O+
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 8:01 Quote
Thanks to everyone who has replied. So far, I have seen a lot of votes for the Works, but also people relating good experiences with Superstar and Wolf Tooth, also I was able to find the 2° WT sets which, for some reason, I missed before. Cane Creek seems to be the more down voted of the options.

Does anyone have anything to say about the customer service experience with these companies (warranty, replacement parts, sizing and ordering, anything else)?
flag HaggeredShins
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 8:43 Quote
sonofawil wrote:
Technically that's not the exact definition of "reach" or even "effective top tube" since both are supposed to be measured from the head tube not the stem, but it's an important consideration and it is often what I'm getting at when I use those terms with respect to how it feels to sit on a bike.

This is an always important observation about bike fit! The industry talks about reach and stack like an end-all-be-all fit measurement tool (RAD definitely improves on that when taken with reach and stack), but none of it tells the whole story.

Consider for instance that a slack bike will have a more compact (standing, not ett) cockpit than a steep bike, even if reach and stack are the same (reworded for clarity). We've been trained to do a lot of mental math around reach and stack but they're not exclusively helpful numbers taken on their own outside of comparing frame sizes that have otherwise relative geo.

Back on topic, you probably won't be disappointed on CS with Works for what its worth. Super responsive, not that I've had anything break, just shipping logistics.
flag leftypumpkin
O+
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 17:14 Quote
My two orders from Wolftooth to Canada have been easy and flawless. They offer ordering in Canadian currency and when I ordered my angle headset it was here in three days. Downside is they make their angle headsets in batches so inventory might be hit or miss (I was on their email list and ordered as soon as they were back in stock). You can get Wolftooth's stuff through local bikeshops who wholesale through BTI or Lambert, but you are limited to the 1 degree headset.
flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 17:57 Quote
HaggeredShins wrote:
@Cpembo6 I'm interested in what geo calc you were using to run this?

Hey HaggardShins. The calculator link is below. I find it really good.

Only problem I've found is that when you enter in an angleset value, it pivots the steerer from the top of the headset. Rather than evenly through the head tube (closer at the top, further away at the bottom). Hence why I was getting different values to you.
So to counter this, I now enter a reach adjust number to even it out. e.g. for a -2.5 degree angleset and a 110mm headtube = -2.4mm reach adjust (hope I got the trigonometry correct). This is just to make the cauculator correctly measure the geo.

It still shows negligible final reach changes for head angles around 65ish, And very small RAD changes after you adjust the stack to match. Obviously once you start getting loser to 45 defree HA, the reach numbers start to change more dramatically. But thats only Grimm Donut territory lol

https://geo.syn.bike/

tup Beer
flag sonofawil
O+
Posted: Mar 31, 2022 at 7:26 Quote
leftypumpkin wrote:
My two orders from Wolftooth to Canada have been easy and flawless. They offer ordering in Canadian currency and when I ordered my angle headset it was here in three days. Downside is they make their angle headsets in batches so inventory might be hit or miss (I was on their email list and ordered as soon as they were back in stock). You can get Wolftooth's stuff through local bikeshops who wholesale through BTI or Lambert, but you are limited to the 1 degree headset.

That's helpful insight. Thanks. When did you install your headset? How's it performing, thus far?
flag leftypumpkin
O+
Posted: Mar 31, 2022 at 9:46 Quote
sonofawil wrote:
leftypumpkin wrote:
My two orders from Wolftooth to Canada have been easy and flawless. They offer ordering in Canadian currency and when I ordered my angle headset it was here in three days. Downside is they make their angle headsets in batches so inventory might be hit or miss (I was on their email list and ordered as soon as they were back in stock). You can get Wolftooth's stuff through local bikeshops who wholesale through BTI or Lambert, but you are limited to the 1 degree headset.

That's helpful insight. Thanks. When did you install your headset? How's it performing, thus far?

It's still sitting in its bag on my bench, this is a non-winter project to install an older lefty on my fatbike for winter riding and I'm in the 'thinking about how to fabricate' phase for the new brackets I need to build to center a 100mm rim under the lefty.
flag HaggeredShins
Posted: Mar 31, 2022 at 16:31 Quote
[Quote="Cpembo6"]
HaggeredShins wrote:
https://geo.syn.bike/

tup Beer

This looks pretty good tbh, nice tool--I got what look like reasonable measurements with it for bar position so it seems to be working correctly.

Something though that it doesn't seem to simulate well with respect to anglesets is that they pivot the steerer on an axis somewhere in the lower half of the headtube if not at the bottom cup depending on design, as opposed to at the tt/ht intersection, which is what looks like is happening here. Minor nuance, but that impacts accuracy of wheelbase and cockpit measurements (including reach).
flag englertracing
O+
Posted: Mar 31, 2022 at 22:17 Quote
Damn this looks like a mtbr or ridemonkey thread.

All you cool kids should head to ride monkey
Where there's regulars.

This will all get buried by one answer threads in like 2 days here.
flag TimMog
Posted: Apr 1, 2022 at 5:27 Quote
Echoing what others have said here, the Works one is fantastic and transformed my bike, BUT the bearings aren't sealed very well so could do with a slap of marine grease if you're riding in the rain a lot
flag englertracing
O+
Posted: Apr 3, 2022 at 19:32 Quote
The Wolftooth can't be as good as the works.
The works sells different cups per 10mm headtube length
Wolftooth only has short and long.
Leads to misalignment and a different change to HA than advertised.
flag Wreck2019
Posted: Apr 4, 2022 at 3:41 Quote
sonofawil wrote:
Works Components has a line of them. Wolf Tooth (I like their chain rings) has the Geoshift, limited to 1°. Does anyone have any experience with these products? Do you have any recommendations? Is there anything that should be considered beyond your desired effective headtube angle? Are there any pitfalls to this effort or just plain advice you can give? Thanks.

The products I have been looking at:
https://canecreek.com/product/angleset/
https://www.workscomponents.co.uk/
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/pages/geoshift-angle-headset
https://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/slackerizer-angle-headset.htm

I have the Works and it, well, works. Their support are fantastic. I wasn't using the supplied crown race which caused an issue. 3-4 emails identified the issue and wham- all as it should be. Took less than a day to sort out the issue.

I had been a bit critical of the reach of the V2 Evil Wreckoning and stretched out the cockpit at the same time by dropping 10mm of spacers and going from 50 to 60mm stem. Feels like, and is, a custom cockpit that works beautifully for me.

 


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