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Reasons to not go to AXS

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flag onyxss
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 1:22 Quote
seraph wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
Not to be rude but what kind of people come into your store that can't shift with a regular shifter, on one hand the argument is that AXS has a much lighter shift as you only need to press a button, and yet you claim people will have a tendency to mishift more on a shifter that gives more resistance and tactile feedback? This is like saying you are more likely to hit the wrong analogue button on a traditional phone or car infotainment system than a touchscreen. I'm sure if AXS is so damn easy to press and shift with there is more danger of double shifting on that than there is with a shifter that gives intuitive feedback.... But anyway this whole topic is pointless anyway, no point slagging it off just for the sake of it.

I work in a super high volume shop that sees all kinds of people, from groadies to mountain bikers. 9 times out of 10 when a customer comes in with a broken chain it's because they mis-shifted.

See the great thing about AXS is that you don't need a shifter that has "intuitive feedback". Just push a button and it shifts.

I'm obviously not going to convince you, I'm just putting out there how I feel about AXS, which is that it's the perfect drivetrain for almost every type of bike.

I think you are still not getting it - every other commenter is trying to tell you not that AXS is not slightly better ("slightly" is the key part here - its not revolution like i.e. index shifting vs non-index) but that it has way too much premium pricing to make sense for all of the users with limited budget (probably 90+ % of regular customers...).
To suggest to someone with broken chain worth 30$ - buy AXS for 2000$ and you will have one broken chain per year less - thats just plain bad (stupid?) advice. Except of course you are dealing with dentists and simmilar customer with unlimited budget. Then its excelent advice.

To sum up - AXS is slightly better in some ways than mechanical - but with that pricing it makes sense only for people with unlimited budget. When AXS pricing is going down with price to slx/XT mechanical level - then you will see way more of them. Because for 10% increase in experience people are not willing to pay 400% price. At least most of them Smile
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 3:13 Quote
I haven't read every comment here, but I have had X01 AXS for 18 months or so. And other than me forgetting to charge the battery once, it has provided my with flawless shifting throughout that time. Without jinxing myself, it has never let me down, mis-shifted, stopped working or played up. The mech has a few scrapes and scratches, so its not like it hasn't seen any action. But regardless, its been perfect.

The shifter paddle is something I managed to get used to very quickly and feels the norm.

I paid £600 less than retail when I got it, so saved a big chunk, but that still didn't make it cheap. In my opinion, its been worth every penny. And I cant imagine going back to a 'traditional' mechanical setup in future.

same goes for my AXS reverb.

Just as a caveat, I am not a dentist or high flyer. I just choose to spend my disposable on my bike rather than other things.

Anyway, enough from me, carry on arguing! Smile
flag bajanmonkey
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 4:12 Quote
v7fmp wrote:
I haven't read every comment here, but I have had X01 AXS for 18 months or so. And other than me forgetting to charge the battery once, it has provided my with flawless shifting throughout that time. Without jinxing myself, it has never let me down, mis-shifted, stopped working or played up. The mech has a few scrapes and scratches, so its not like it hasn't seen any action. But regardless, its been perfect.

The shifter paddle is something I managed to get used to very quickly and feels the norm.

I paid £600 less than retail when I got it, so saved a big chunk, but that still didn't make it cheap. In my opinion, its been worth every penny. And I cant imagine going back to a 'traditional' mechanical setup in future.

same goes for my AXS reverb.

Just as a caveat, I am not a dentist or high flyer. I just choose to spend my disposable on my bike rather than other things.

Anyway, enough from me, carry on arguing! Smile

This exactly! It just works well.
flag bajanmonkey
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 4:14 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
Pros don't run it so why does some 40yo slob wasting his inheritance money to cruise around seated at 15mph need it.

Not sure I agree with this......I see quite a few Bike Checks these days with AXS.
flag seraph
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 8:25 Quote
bajanmonkey wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
Pros don't run it so why does some 40yo slob wasting his inheritance money to cruise around seated at 15mph need it.

Not sure I agree with this......I see quite a few Bike Checks these days with AXS.

Yeah actually tons of pros run AXS. Almost every top SRAM rider has it. Nino Schurter was the test mule for it.
flag JustAnotherRiderHere
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 11:28 Quote
The more I read the more I think I am going to just pull the trigger and order it. Effectively, the same folks who say AXS is not that great also claim that they can get the same performance from a RS Recon as I can from my 34SC....Plus, I live 5 min from the trail head...if something goes nutty I am not driving mad for a few hours home.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 11:31 Quote
Yea I meant most pros, and you gotta think Sram wants them on it for marketing purposes wether it is better or functionally. But anyway tghis conversation is dried out, there is no point slagging it off, it's nice that we all have options, but the point most are making is it isn't worth the money for the performance increase, I doubt anyone on a timed course that knows how to shift would be any faster on AXS than on mechanical and in terms of smoothness and shifting under power AXS just denies you from doing it, whereas Shimanos new hyperglide plus cassettes somewhat encourage it. There is many times I would like the chain not to snag when pedalling under load, there isn't many times if any that I mis shift and even if I did it wouldn't be the end of the world, you shouldn't be running such low cadence that your legs stop if you accidently shift an extra gear. But you enjoy it and that is the main thing, and I'm sure if I thought it was worth the money and bought it I would have a lot of fun playing around like it's a new toy tinkering with settings and enjoying robocop sounds but in reality I've spent £7k on a bike and still don't think it, is worth buying an AXS upgrade kit. £600 is much better spent towards better wheels or suspension.
flag mark-p
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 11:47 Quote
What "Pros" run is marketing as they rarely pay much or anything for the equipment. SRAM can afford to offload a stack of AXS sets to sponsored or pro riders to do their advertising for them. Given that most are in agreement that it is no worse than an standard shifter and the fact that these riders are in a team that will ensure batteries are charged etc, then why would they not use them?

The riders are not using their own money. Now if ordinary people want to buy them as well that is their choice. I personally think all this battery operated tech on the bike is tech for the sake of it, particularly for the average rider. But it is their their choice.
I happen to be a musician as well and what I spent on my instrument many would consider ridiculous but that was my decision. The only difference is that it does not require any tech or batteries to make it work. Where the questionable features come in are the "hand hammered bell" that is alleged to sound better or "titanium valves" that operate faster. Those are the brass players versions of AXS or endless tinkering with a ShockWiz. I know players that have all sorts of funky bits and invariably they appear to end up neurotically trying to justify the cost to themselves by seeking approval of other players. The fact that the end result appears to be the same with, or without the funky bits is largely irrelevant.

AXS appears to be much the same.
flag seraph
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 11:49 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
Yea I meant most pros, and you gotta think Sram wants them on it for marketing purposes wether it is better or functionally. But anyway tgis conversation is dried out, there is no point slagging it off, it's nice that we all have options, but the point most are making is it isn't worth the money for the performance increase, I doubt anyone on a timed course that knows how to shift would be any faster on AXS than on mechanical and in termd kf smoothness and shifting under power AXS just denies you from doing it, whereas Shimanos new hyperglide plus cassettes somewhat encourage it. There is many times I would like the chain not to snag when pedalling under load, there isn't many times if any that I mis shift and even if I did it wouldn't be the end of the world, you shouldn't be running such low cadence that your legs stop if you accidently shift an extra gear. But you enjoy it and that is the main thing, and I'm sure if I thought it was worth the money and bought it I would have a lot of fun playing around like it's a new toy tinkering with settings and enjoying robocop sounds but in reality I've spent £7k on a bike and still don't think it, is worth buying an AXS upgrade kit. £600 is much better spent towards better wheels on suspension.

600 pounds isn't going to get you a good performance increase in wheels. Nice carbon starts at $1500. Better to spend it on a sick drivetrain and save your pennies for carbon wheels down the line, or carbon rims if your hubs are worth saving.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 15:25 Quote
seraph wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
Yea I meant most pros, and you gotta think Sram wants them on it for marketing purposes wether it is better or functionally. But anyway tgis conversation is dried out, there is no point slagging it off, it's nice that we all have options, but the point most are making is it isn't worth the money for the performance increase, I doubt anyone on a timed course that knows how to shift would be any faster on AXS than on mechanical and in termd kf smoothness and shifting under power AXS just denies you from doing it, whereas Shimanos new hyperglide plus cassettes somewhat encourage it. There is many times I would like the chain not to snag when pedalling under load, there isn't many times if any that I mis shift and even if I did it wouldn't be the end of the world, you shouldn't be running such low cadence that your legs stop if you accidently shift an extra gear. But you enjoy it and that is the main thing, and I'm sure if I thought it was worth the money and bought it I would have a lot of fun playing around like it's a new toy tinkering with settings and enjoying robocop sounds but in reality I've spent £7k on a bike and still don't think it, is worth buying an AXS upgrade kit. £600 is much better spent towards better wheels on suspension.

600 pounds isn't going to get you a good performance increase in wheels. Nice carbon starts at $1500. Better to spend it on a sick drivetrain and save your pennies for carbon wheels down the line, or carbon rims if your hubs are worth saving.

I bought some carbon Ti hubs on Ebay new for £450 a pair, some Stans carbon rims new for £120 each, laced up with some nice dt swiss spokes and nipples and I have a 1450g enduro wheelset that costs as much as an AXS upgrade and has better hubs than Stans own prebuilt £2000 wheelset. It's possible to spend smart and get deals on the best kit if you are patient and shop around. I bought my sb165 frame with PUSH 11/6 fully invisiframed with not a mark or spec of dirt on it for £2750, that's a £1200 shock and Yeti frame in new condition with £200 worth of wrap and labour for an extra £1550 that would normally be £3700 with a Fox. But regardless the point I a was making is not that you can always get the best wheelset for £600 but rather £600 extra towards a better wheelset is a much bigger performance improvement than a servo operated derailleur. Axs is a gimmick that just happens to work better than a f*cked mechanical system, but if a mechanical system isn't f*cked and setup right there are virtually no advantages other than less cable routing and less thumb/finger force needed, but more added weight and more specifically more sprung mass hanging off your rear triangle. There is a reason they say dh suspension performance is better without a chain, because there is less unsprung mass and inertia fighting the shock, the axs on the otherhand hangs right off the tip of the chainstay, the worst possible place to add weight and the biggest firing line for rocks and getting scuffed on the entire bike. I would be gutted if I spent £400 on a derailleur and it was scuffed to buggery after a couple of months riding. What is your stance on the AXS dropper post, do you support that and think there is a performance increase with that also. The weight adds up, I have a 180g hub, 10-45t 11 speed cassette that weighs 100g less than xx1 eagle with it's pointless granny ring, and 100g lighter derailleur, right there I have already saved nearly 400 grams off my rear swing arm compared to someone running AXS Eagle and an Industry 9 hub.
flag seraph
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 16:58 Quote
Holy wall of text Batman. Eek
flag JustAnotherRiderHere
Posted: Nov 9, 2020 at 18:06 Quote
seraph wrote:
Holy wall of text Batman. Eek

I like Crunch and Munch....
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 0:46 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
seraph wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
Yea I meant most pros, and you gotta think Sram wants them on it for marketing purposes wether it is better or functionally. But anyway tgis conversation is dried out, there is no point slagging it off, it's nice that we all have options, but the point most are making is it isn't worth the money for the performance increase, I doubt anyone on a timed course that knows how to shift would be any faster on AXS than on mechanical and in termd kf smoothness and shifting under power AXS just denies you from doing it, whereas Shimanos new hyperglide plus cassettes somewhat encourage it. There is many times I would like the chain not to snag when pedalling under load, there isn't many times if any that I mis shift and even if I did it wouldn't be the end of the world, you shouldn't be running such low cadence that your legs stop if you accidently shift an extra gear. But you enjoy it and that is the main thing, and I'm sure if I thought it was worth the money and bought it I would have a lot of fun playing around like it's a new toy tinkering with settings and enjoying robocop sounds but in reality I've spent £7k on a bike and still don't think it, is worth buying an AXS upgrade kit. £600 is much better spent towards better wheels on suspension.

600 pounds isn't going to get you a good performance increase in wheels. Nice carbon starts at $1500. Better to spend it on a sick drivetrain and save your pennies for carbon wheels down the line, or carbon rims if your hubs are worth saving.

I bought some carbon Ti hubs on Ebay new for £450 a pair, some Stans carbon rims new for £120 each, laced up with some nice dt swiss spokes and nipples and I have a 1450g enduro wheelset that costs as much as an AXS upgrade and has better hubs than Stans own prebuilt £2000 wheelset. It's possible to spend smart and get deals on the best kit if you are patient and shop around. I bought my sb165 frame with PUSH 11/6 fully invisiframed with not a mark or spec of dirt on it for £2750, that's a £1200 shock and Yeti frame in new condition with £200 worth of wrap and labour for an extra £1550 that would normally be £3700 with a Fox. But regardless the point I a was making is not that you can always get the best wheelset for £600 but rather £600 extra towards a better wheelset is a much bigger performance improvement than a servo operated derailleur. Axs is a gimmick that just happens to work better than a f*cked mechanical system, but if a mechanical system isn't f*cked and setup right there are virtually no advantages other than less cable routing and less thumb/finger force needed, but more added weight and more specifically more sprung mass hanging off your rear triangle. There is a reason they say dh suspension performance is better without a chain, because there is less unsprung mass and inertia fighting the shock, the axs on the otherhand hangs right off the tip of the chainstay, the worst possible place to add weight and the biggest firing line for rocks and getting scuffed on the entire bike. I would be gutted if I spent £400 on a derailleur and it was scuffed to buggery after a couple of months riding. What is your stance on the AXS dropper post, do you support that and think there is a performance increase with that also. The weight adds up, I have a 180g hub, 10-45t 11 speed cassette that weighs 100g less than xx1 eagle with it's pointless granny ring, and 100g lighter derailleur, right there I have already saved nearly 400 grams off my rear swing arm compared to someone running AXS Eagle and an Industry 9 hub.

out of interest, how many hours have you used AXS for? And in what varying conditions? Or are your findings just opinion based? (apologies if you have already mentioned the amount of time spent using the setup, I might have missed it).

Not trying to discredit you or be a dick, just interested to see where your opinion comes from on this subject. As you seem quite passionate to write AXS off or claim its not worth its cost, or throwing up examples of a brand new AXS setup and comparing it to a worn out mechanical.

As it seems there are two camps, those who have it and love it and those who don't, haven't tried it, and write it off because they don't deem it value for money/worthwhile upgrade/etc/etc.

Also, your comment of AXS denying a shift under power.... not entirely sure what you mean here? Never experienced that or heard of it before?
flag onyxss
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 1:32 Quote
v7fmp wrote:
Not trying to discredit you or be a dick, just interested to see where your opinion comes from on this subject. As you seem quite passionate to write AXS off or claim its not worth its cost, or throwing up examples of a brand new AXS setup and comparing it to a worn out mechanical.

As it seems there are two camps, those who have it and love it and those who don't, haven't tried it, and write it off because they don't deem it value for money/worthwhile upgrade/etc/etc.

Also, your comment of AXS denying a shift under power.... not entirely sure what you mean here? Never experienced that or heard of it before?
You nailed it with 2 camps - and you cannot expect experience with AXS from anti-AXS camp, because those with experience are already in pro-AXS camp Big Grin
Its quite simple, difference in experience is quite small - to anti-AXS camp not worth 4x price of regular drivetrain, to pro-AXS it is worth that price. AXS is marginally better in some ways - is this worth 4x price? To people with "unlimited" budget yes, to those with limited budget definately no - other upgrades in 1500+$ range will change MTB experience waaay more than AXS (think wheels, suspension tunning, tyres, brakes...).
flag DHhack
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 4:18 Quote
onyxss wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
Not trying to discredit you or be a dick, just interested to see where your opinion comes from on this subject. As you seem quite passionate to write AXS off or claim its not worth its cost, or throwing up examples of a brand new AXS setup and comparing it to a worn out mechanical.

As it seems there are two camps, those who have it and love it and those who don't, haven't tried it, and write it off because they don't deem it value for money/worthwhile upgrade/etc/etc.

Also, your comment of AXS denying a shift under power.... not entirely sure what you mean here? Never experienced that or heard of it before?
You nailed it with 2 camps - and you cannot expect experience with AXS from anti-AXS camp, because those with experience are already in pro-AXS camp Big Grin
Its quite simple, difference in experience is quite small - to anti-AXS camp not worth 4x price of regular drivetrain, to pro-AXS it is worth that price. AXS is marginally better in some ways - is this worth 4x price? To people with "unlimited" budget yes, to those with limited budget definately no - other upgrades in 1500+$ range will change MTB experience waaay more than AXS (think wheels, suspension tunning, tyres, brakes...).

If you think AXS is unlimited budget don’t ever get into cars Smile

 


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