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Reasons to not go to AXS

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flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 6:33 Quote
seraph wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:
seraph wrote:


You're not getting it, man. AXS removes virtually any chance of user error. The human hand is only so accurate.


I accidentally called or opened apps on my phone quite often but I don't actually re member accidentally shifteing in a way that it would not accidentally trigger any kind of button/trigger shifter or even a tv remote. What user error exactly does the axs eliminates, that is so common whith the people you know, give em some credit man, if things were that bad it would be an issue for most of us. You are still vague on your answers for a reliable "source"

Overshifting is caused by pushing the thumb shifter farther than you intended. On a 12-speed drivetrain, your chain is so narrow and the tolerances are so tight, a slight overshift can cause the chain to catch on the next cog and get damaged. I literally caught a chain today that was one bad shift away from exploding because the guy was shifting like an ogre. AXS eliminates that variable, because all the button does is tell the derailleur to shift the gears, and the derailleur knows exactly how far to move the cage.
9vershifting issues, learn to count, 1 click, 2 click 3 click etc, if you get issue between clicks fix your indexing, buying electronics won't save you from overshifting it's 3 clicks either way
flag bajanmonkey
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 6:54 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
seraph wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:


I accidentally called or opened apps on my phone quite often but I don't actually re member accidentally shifteing in a way that it would not accidentally trigger any kind of button/trigger shifter or even a tv remote. What user error exactly does the axs eliminates, that is so common whith the people you know, give em some credit man, if things were that bad it would be an issue for most of us. You are still vague on your answers for a reliable "source"

Overshifting is caused by pushing the thumb shifter farther than you intended. On a 12-speed drivetrain, your chain is so narrow and the tolerances are so tight, a slight overshift can cause the chain to catch on the next cog and get damaged. I literally caught a chain today that was one bad shift away from exploding because the guy was shifting like an ogre. AXS eliminates that variable, because all the button does is tell the derailleur to shift the gears, and the derailleur knows exactly how far to move the cage.
9vershifting issues, learn to count, 1 click, 2 click 3 click etc, if you get issue between clicks fix your indexing, buying electronics won't save you from overshifting it's 3 clicks either way

But with a cable it is possible to press the shifter beyond a click, it is not possible to do this with electronics. I think this is what seraph is saying. Nothing to do with the number of shifts.
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 7:06 Quote
JustAnotherRiderHere wrote:
The more I read the more I think I am going to just pull the trigger and order it. Effectively, the same folks who say AXS is not that great also claim that they can get the same performance from a RS Recon as I can from my 34SC....Plus, I live 5 min from the trail head...if something goes nutty I am not driving mad for a few hours home.

No, both forks you mention are shit.

The difference between a traditional top sram rear mech and an axs is the elimination of the shifting cable, otherwise both do the same job and face the same challenges, now if you think that replacing a shifting cable with an electronic servo, batteries and all that comes with it plus the price difference will give you 99% better shifting -what ever that means- I'm pretty sure you can't actually say the difference between a recon and a 34sc in a blind test.
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 7:12 Quote
bajanmonkey wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:
seraph wrote:


Overshifting is caused by pushing the thumb shifter farther than you intended. On a 12-speed drivetrain, your chain is so narrow and the tolerances are so tight, a slight overshift can cause the chain to catch on the next cog and get damaged. I literally caught a chain today that was one bad shift away from exploding because the guy was shifting like an ogre. AXS eliminates that variable, because all the button does is tell the derailleur to shift the gears, and the derailleur knows exactly how far to move the cage.
9vershifting issues, learn to count, 1 click, 2 click 3 click etc, if you get issue between clicks fix your indexing, buying electronics won't save you from overshifting it's 3 clicks either way

But with a cable it is possible to press the shifter beyond a click, it is not possible to do this with electronics. I think this is what seraph is saying. Nothing to do with the number of shifts.


if you press beyond and actually overshift you need to trim indexing, how hard is it? With the same thinking you can actually activate the trigger by accident if you rest your thumb on it and hit something unexpected. Poor excuse for something that's not even an issue to begin with. He also said 99% better shifting, I don't overshift 100% of the time, do you?
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 7:38 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
JustAnotherRiderHere wrote:
The more I read the more I think I am going to just pull the trigger and order it. Effectively, the same folks who say AXS is not that great also claim that they can get the same performance from a RS Recon as I can from my 34SC....Plus, I live 5 min from the trail head...if something goes nutty I am not driving mad for a few hours home.

No, both forks you mention are shit.

.

appears you are wrong...

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/forks/suspension-forks/fox-34-step-cast-float-fit4-factory-29-fork-review/
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 8:24 Quote
v7fmp wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:
JustAnotherRiderHere wrote:
The more I read the more I think I am going to just pull the trigger and order it. Effectively, the same folks who say AXS is not that great also claim that they can get the same performance from a RS Recon as I can from my 34SC....Plus, I live 5 min from the trail head...if something goes nutty I am not driving mad for a few hours home.

No, both forks you mention are shit.

.

appears you are wrong...

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/forks/suspension-forks/fox-34-step-cast-float-fit4-factory-29-fork-review/

Says bikeradar!? Now I'm convinced!
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 9:25 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:


No, both forks you mention are shit.

.

appears you are wrong...

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/forks/suspension-forks/fox-34-step-cast-float-fit4-factory-29-fork-review/

Says bikeradar!? Now I'm convinced!

Exactly. I'm not saying anything in regards to the 34sc, never used one, but bikeradar are like amateurs that spend a bit of time reading articles and on the forums than true technical bike geeks. They did a review of the PUSH 11/6 and said the EXT is a bit better. Except here is caveat, they review the 11/6 on a Geometron that is not even a supported a tune as they have never tested that bike and developed a tune for it, it was done by a guy at Saddleback randomly throwing shim stacks together on an 11/6 that was probably intended for a completely different bike but the same shock size, I know his name but won't give it away, I only know this cos I was gonna get a Geometron and PUSH told me straight up we don't fo a tune for that, I was confused how bikeradar had one on their geometron long term test bike. I spoke to the mechanic at Saddleback and turns out he owns a Geometron himself and fitted an 11/6 unofficially to it, I asked could he provide me one and he said no PUSH wouldn't allow it as it's not officially supported. So there you go, a £1200 shock supposedly that is meant to get field tested on the bike by PUSH during tune development reviewed as possibly a YT Capra spec shock tuned by Joe Bloggs to work on a Geometron and reviewed by bike radar. And don't get me started on their recent video comparing the PUSH vs ZEB, they mention some comment along the lines of the 38 is stiff, they increased the percentage stiffness over the 36 more than Rockshox did with the ZEB over the Lyrik, basically saying pros of the 38 are it's stiff and composed and that the ZEB is just a bit better than a Lyrik. What the spanners failed to realise or mention is the Lyrik was already considerably stiffer than a 36 so even by increasing the stiffness relative to their own fork by a smaller percent it is still stiffer overall than a Fox 38. I'm sure these tools just read news articles by other publishers, take the bikes through some xc trails, snap a couple photos and that's it, they don't do any proper research or testing like the German mags do.
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 14:23 Quote
Seems we are going a little off topic here. My link to the 34sc review was to try and discredit the utterly ridiculous statement that both the previous mentioned forks were 'shit'. As per usual, I very much doubt adespotoskli has spent anytime, let alone lots of time on both forks to come up with such a detailed bit of feedback on them.

Feel free to prove us wrong tho and explain your findings and how you came to your conclusion.

Also Danzzz88, we are talking about AXS here, I asked you a few questions on your experience with AXS, seeing as you have such a strong opionion on it.... still awaiting your feedback.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 15:10 Quote
I haven't used AXS and don't need to as I know how it works and what it does. It's a mech, a cassette and a chain just like every other mechanical drivetrain, the fact a servo does the pulling motion as opposed to a mechanical lever is irrelevant, if you are not someone who has aproblem with this elusive 'mishifting', don't have any issue with finger force, don't have issue with cable rattle thanks to guides built into the frame ect, then what benefit whatsoever does a switch in place of a shifter have to offer? This 'perfect' shifting is nonsense as all high end drivetrains shift perfectly anyway and xtr hyperglide plus arguably shifts even better. Please tell me why AXS is a performance improvement then, and why I would want to add more weight to my bike, have to charge batteries, worry about a £400 part dangling off my bike getting wrecked ect. Everyone who owns it and reviews it says tge sanme thing, oh there is less cables for easy maintenance, oh you get perfect shifts every time and no half shifts, oh you get no cable rattle....well I don't have issues with any of those with mechanical so would I spend £800 for more unsprung mass, more expensive parts to replace if they break ect, just so I can hear it go buzz buzz buzz? I've a 1/5 scale petrol rc car if I want to play around with servos and toys all day... It's not like AXS knows the cassette position and smoothly shifts when the chain is on the correct profile teeth, it literally is just shifting the same as a regular shifter or at least for those that actually 'know how to shift'..

Please show me where these elusive imperfect shifts are in this video. https://youtu.be/yxfC_cVRUUQ
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 15:50 Quote
Or here is an opinion of someone who has tried both.. https://youtu.be/K525AMYUPrk

So yea, I see the only ones that defend AXS and it's price are the ones that have already forked out for it and looking for reasons to justify it.
flag Natyork
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 16:17 Quote
JustAnotherRiderHere wrote:
Natyork wrote:
Will just cost too much, and I quite like (not intentionally) smashing my rear mech on stuff so I don’t think anything above gx or xt is for me

In one year I broke 4 GX.....XX1 has been much more resistant to my crappy trail skills. Simply, stronger.

While I probably won’t be going AXS I might have to try XX1 or XO1 rear mech, outliving 4 GX derailleurs would save cash in the longrun+ the faf of a broken one. Sounds like a plan
flag JustAnotherRiderHere
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 18:24 Quote
While I probably won’t be going AXS I might have to try XX1 or XO1 rear mech, outliving 4 GX derailleurs would save cash in the longrun+ the faf of a broken one. Sounds like a plan[/Quote]

Not another angle...XX1 adjustable thumb lever is nice. Crisper shifts. And, more resilient to rock strikes ...or, maybe I am hitting less rocks...
flag seraph
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 21:49 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
I haven't used AXS and don't need to as I know how it works and what it does. It's a mech, a cassette and a chain just like every other mechanical drivetrain, the fact a servo does the pulling motion as opposed to a mechanical lever is irrelevant, if you are not someone who has aproblem with this elusive 'mishifting', don't have any issue with finger force, don't have issue with cable rattle thanks to guides built into the frame ect, then what benefit whatsoever does a switch in place of a shifter have to offer? This 'perfect' shifting is nonsense as all high end drivetrains shift perfectly anyway and xtr hyperglide plus arguably shifts even better. Please tell me why AXS is a performance improvement then, and why I would want to add more weight to my bike, have to charge batteries, worry about a £400 part dangling off my bike getting wrecked ect. Everyone who owns it and reviews it says tge sanme thing, oh there is less cables for easy maintenance, oh you get perfect shifts every time and no half shifts, oh you get no cable rattle....well I don't have issues with any of those with mechanical so would I spend £800 for more unsprung mass, more expensive parts to replace if they break ect, just so I can hear it go buzz buzz buzz? I've a 1/5 scale petrol rc car if I want to play around with servos and toys all day... It's not like AXS knows the cassette position and smoothly shifts when the chain is on the correct profile teeth, it literally is just shifting the same as a regular shifter or at least for those that actually 'know how to shift'..

Please show me where these elusive imperfect shifts are in this video. https://youtu.be/yxfC_cVRUUQ

Again, imperfect shifts are human error. I don't know how you fail to understand that even the most seasoned bike rider can occasionally overshift while attempting to change gears. I'm a mechanic at a high volume bike shop that caters to riders of all skill levels, but even our most skilled customers occasionally come in with busted chains from overhshifting.

Yes, on a mechanical drivetrain, a perfect shift is what occurs most of the time. With the proper pedaling/shifting technique, analog shifting is perfectly fine for some riders. What I like about AXS is how precise it is. It takes the guesswork out of shifting, especially under load or while riding technical terrain. I've never had a mad shift with it. I've got a customer who runs the XX1 AXS derailleur on his 1x12 road bike with a 48t ring up front and a Leonardi 9-46 cassette in the back. He's got about 8000 miles on the bike so far and not a single shifting issue.

Also see how I broke my comment into different paragraphs? It makes it easier to read when you don't smash all your thoughts into one huge wall of text.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 10, 2020 at 23:29 Quote
"It takes the guesswork out of shifting, especially under load or while riding technical terrain".

And this isthe whole reason I don't see why it is worth the money, because this isn't a major issue if it does happen occasionally, yea breaking chains all the time isn't good, but how are people supposedly mishifting in the first place, mechs give a very positive click to inform you when you have shifted, soon as it clicks and you feel the chain go onto the sprocket you release. I never broke my XX1 chain in a whole year riding, because I don't shift under full torque.

Additionally I'm not sure on this one, I may be wrong but don't you have to set the AXS to how many shifts you want it to perform for a certain press, so you either have to ling press and watch it shift through all gears on the cassette, press once for one shift or program it to say shift 2 gears for a certain press? Well with mechanical I get a choice, I can upshift, 1,2 or 3 gears at a time depending how far I push the lever and can sweep through multiple gears in 1 clean stroke.
flag seraph
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 0:34 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
"It takes the guesswork out of shifting, especially under load or while riding technical terrain".

And this isthe whole reason I don't see why it is worth the money, because this isn't a major issue if it does happen occasionally, yea breaking chains all the time isn't good, but how are people supposedly mishifting in the first place, mechs give a very positive click to inform you when you have shifted, soon as it clicks and you feel the chain go onto the sprocket you release. I never broke my XX1 chain in a whole year riding, because I don't shift under full torque.

Additionally I'm not sure on this one, I may be wrong but don't you have to set the AXS to how many shifts you want it to perform for a certain press, so you either have to ling press and watch it shift through all gears on the cassette, press once for one shift or program it to say shift 2 gears for a certain press? Well with mechanical I get a choice, I can upshift, 1,2 or 3 gears at a time depending how far I push the lever and can sweep through multiple gears in 1 clean stroke.

With AXS you can program MultiShift to do 2 or 3 gears at a time when you hold the button down, or you can just press the button as many individual times as you want to go through as many gears as number of times you press.

 


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