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Reasons to not go to AXS

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flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 0:56 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
I haven't used AXS and don't need to as I know how it works and what it does. It's a mech, a cassette and a chain just like every other mechanical drivetrain, the fact a servo does the pulling motion as opposed to a mechanical lever is irrelevant, if you are not someone who has aproblem with this elusive 'mishifting', don't have any issue with finger force, don't have issue with cable rattle thanks to guides built into the frame ect, then what benefit whatsoever does a switch in place of a shifter have to offer? This 'perfect' shifting is nonsense as all high end drivetrains shift perfectly anyway and xtr hyperglide plus arguably shifts even better. Please tell me why AXS is a performance improvement then, and why I would want to add more weight to my bike, have to charge batteries, worry about a £400 part dangling off my bike getting wrecked ect. Everyone who owns it and reviews it says tge sanme thing, oh there is less cables for easy maintenance, oh you get perfect shifts every time and no half shifts, oh you get no cable rattle....well I don't have issues with any of those with mechanical so would I spend £800 for more unsprung mass, more expensive parts to replace if they break ect, just so I can hear it go buzz buzz buzz? I've a 1/5 scale petrol rc car if I want to play around with servos and toys all day... It's not like AXS knows the cassette position and smoothly shifts when the chain is on the correct profile teeth, it literally is just shifting the same as a regular shifter or at least for those that actually 'know how to shift'..

Please show me where these elusive imperfect shifts are in this video. https://youtu.be/yxfC_cVRUUQ

ok, that's cool. Like I said in my earlier post, not hating on anyone, just always interested to know someones experience of a product when they are so anti or pro towards it.

You don't feel the need for AXS and that's cool. It just gives your shared opinions some context when you haven't used it, to the guys asking what its like.

I guess its similar to asking someone's opinion on a car, when they haven't driven it, but saw it on Top Gear......
flag seraph
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 0:58 Quote
I've ridden almost every drivetrain out there over the last 20+ years, and I can honestly say that electronic shifting is the biggest innovation since SIS.

Di2, EPS, and AXS all work incredibly well. I just think that AXS has a leg-up over Di2 due to the wireless aspect and the mobile app allowing on the fly firmware updates.
flag Pablo16v
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 1:49 Quote
Cost will always be the main issue for me, then there’s the fact that I’m perfectly happy with the performance of my normal drivetrain which I find easy to set up (XTR shifter, SLX mech, Shimano chain and cassette). I have nice clean crisp shifting, rarely fudge gear changes and haven’t snapped a chain in years.
When I was on furlough back in May and June I rode my bike waaaaay more than usual and I had an unlucky couple of weeks where I managed to bend two SLX 12sp derailleurs (I think it had been 18 months or so since I had last destroyed a mech) and they cost me £60 each. I’ve just looked on Google to find the cheapest AXS X01 rear derailleur and it’s an eye watering €550 euros, so that two week period would have instead cost me a rather chunky €1100. Actually that’s a lie, as I would have just gone back to a normal drivetrain after the second time it happened.

I am by no means short of cash but I do consider whether certain things offer decent value for money, especially the more expensive something is, and I can’t justify spending €550 on what is essentially a consumable drivetrain part, on a mountain bike that takes a regular beating under me. However, I am Scottish and considering steam engines were invented by a Scot who saw a boiling kettle and thought the steam coming out of it was a waste, then maybe AXS just doesn’t sit right with the thrifty bit of my brain Big Grin
flag onyxss
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 2:27 Quote
seraph wrote:
Again, imperfect shifts are human error. I don't know how you fail to understand that even the most seasoned bike rider can occasionally overshift while attempting to change gears. I'm a mechanic at a high volume bike shop that caters to riders of all skill levels, but even our most skilled customers occasionally come in with busted chains from overhshifting.

Yes, on a mechanical drivetrain, a perfect shift is what occurs most of the time. With the proper pedaling/shifting technique, analog shifting is perfectly fine for some riders. What I like about AXS is how precise it is. It takes the guesswork out of shifting, especially under load or while riding technical terrain. I've never had a mad shift with it. I've got a customer who runs the XX1 AXS derailleur on his 1x12 road bike with a 48t ring up front and a Leonardi 9-46 cassette in the back. He's got about 8000 miles on the bike so far and not a single shifting issue.

Also see how I broke my comment into different paragraphs? It makes it easier to read when you don't smash all your thoughts into one huge wall of text.

And again we are where you fail to understand that suggesting to customer with "occasionally overshift " and 30$ worth broken chain - here is a 2000$ solution which will solve your "problem" when you overshifted 2 times this year and in one case you somehow manage to broke 30$ chain.
Its just waaay overpriced solution. Like going to car service with busted cooling pipe worth 100$ of labor and material - "Sir, we have perfect solution for you, we can install new Premium German Brand motor instead of this for only 10000$. You will have no more busted pipes" Big Grin
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 3:19 Quote
onyxss wrote:
seraph wrote:
Again, imperfect shifts are human error. I don't know how you fail to understand that even the most seasoned bike rider can occasionally overshift while attempting to change gears. I'm a mechanic at a high volume bike shop that caters to riders of all skill levels, but even our most skilled customers occasionally come in with busted chains from overhshifting.

Yes, on a mechanical drivetrain, a perfect shift is what occurs most of the time. With the proper pedaling/shifting technique, analog shifting is perfectly fine for some riders. What I like about AXS is how precise it is. It takes the guesswork out of shifting, especially under load or while riding technical terrain. I've never had a mad shift with it. I've got a customer who runs the XX1 AXS derailleur on his 1x12 road bike with a 48t ring up front and a Leonardi 9-46 cassette in the back. He's got about 8000 miles on the bike so far and not a single shifting issue.

Also see how I broke my comment into different paragraphs? It makes it easier to read when you don't smash all your thoughts into one huge wall of text.

And again we are where you fail to understand that suggesting to customer with "occasionally overshift " and 30$ worth broken chain - here is a 2000$ solution which will solve your "problem" when you overshifted 2 times this year and in one case you somehow manage to broke 30$ chain.
Its just waaay overpriced solution. Like going to car service with busted cooling pipe worth 100$ of labor and material - "Sir, we have perfect solution for you, we can install new Premium German Brand motor instead of this for only 10000$. You will have no more busted pipes" Big Grin

for sure, when you see it as a solution to an occasional problem, it does seem to be an extreme way to solve it.

But if you are in the market for a premium drivetrain, want the latest tech, have the money to spend on it, then AXS is a very good bit of kit. Is it worth twice that of another drivetrain, probably not, but its all personal opinion.

Plus no one should be paying full retail for it, there are deals to be had.

But in the context of the OP, he was asking for pro's and con's, yet plenty of folk have suggested he shouldn't go with it, with absolutely no prior experience of it, other than seeing it costs more than drivetrain XXX.

Those of us who have used it have passed on our thoughts and experience, some who haven't used it have highlighted things as the cost of a replacement mech etc, and then there are those who add nothing to the discussion by slagging it off, with nothing tangible to back it up.

But hey, that's the joyful nature of the internet, everyone can throw their 2pence into the pot!
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 4:40 Quote
v7fmp wrote:
Seems we are going a little off topic here. My link to the 34sc review was to try and discredit the utterly ridiculous statement that both the previous mentioned forks were 'shit'. As per usual, I very much doubt adespotoskli has spent anytime, let alone lots of time on both forks to come up with such a detailed bit of feedback on them.

Feel free to prove us wrong tho and explain your findings and how you came to your conclusion.

Also Danzzz88, we are talking about AXS here, I asked you a few questions on your experience with AXS, seeing as you have such a strong opionion on it.... still awaiting your feedback.

I would agree is out of topic here but you started it

I did ride fox and rs suspension, after riding bos deville 34/ deville fcv , dvo onyx/diamond and crc custom damper, fox and rs ride like shit for me. It's that simple.
Don't actually care to prove you wrong and you have not discredit anyone buy giving a link to a favored review, *edit you actually proved my point, if your only argument is a review from a bike website, it's irrelevant
What differentiates a top sram rear mech and axs? You skip the shifting cable but you get a super sensitive shifter that you can flick it with your pinky finger, how's that preventing the overshifting when you ride a trail or rock litterd climbs and try to downshift? Isn’t it possible to flick it by accident? If yes then what's the gain?
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 5:46 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
Seems we are going a little off topic here. My link to the 34sc review was to try and discredit the utterly ridiculous statement that both the previous mentioned forks were 'shit'. As per usual, I very much doubt adespotoskli has spent anytime, let alone lots of time on both forks to come up with such a detailed bit of feedback on them.

Feel free to prove us wrong tho and explain your findings and how you came to your conclusion.

Also Danzzz88, we are talking about AXS here, I asked you a few questions on your experience with AXS, seeing as you have such a strong opionion on it.... still awaiting your feedback.

I would agree is out of topic here but you started it

I did ride fox and rs suspension, after riding bos deville 34/ deville fcv , dvo onyx/diamond and crc custom damper, fox and rs ride like shit for me. It's that simple.
Don't actually care to prove you wrong and you have not discredit anyone buy giving a link to a favored review, *edit you actually proved my point, if your only argument is a review from a bike website, it's irrelevant
What differentiates a top sram rear mech and axs? You skip the shifting cable but you get a super sensitive shifter that you can flick it with your pinky finger, how's that preventing the overshifting when you ride a trail or rock litterd climbs and try to downshift? Isn’t it possible to flick it by accident? If yes then what's the gain?

Maybe you should be more descriptive or detailed with your summary of parts that you didn't get on with, rather than a blanket statement of 'XYZ is shit'. It doesn't give any useful feedback and makes you come across as someone with little knowledge or experience, which by the sounds of it isn't the case, as you have stated you have tried lots of other forks.

I guess I was trying to highlight that a bit more info can go a long way to help someone make a decision if they are asking for help... which they are (albeit not about suspension forks as we go off on a different subject again).

But its not for me to tell you how to communicate or conduct yourself on a bike forum, so please ignore all my comments and feedback and do what you wish.

Anyway, back to talking about the subject matter... AXS.... I personally have never experienced an 'accidental' shift. my shifter is set up far enough away from my grip so that doesn't happen for me. But dependant on your setup, I guess it is possible.

We do understand now that you are not a fan, so probably don't need to keep creating hypothetical 'problems' that the AXS setup could cause, and let those who have or do run it share their feedback of real world, actual pro's & con's.

good stuff.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 7:01 Quote
I agree with the above, except 'so probably don't need to keep creating hypothetical 'problems' that the AXS setup could cause, and let those who have or do run it share their feedback of real world, actual pro's & con's'

This is exactly what all the guy with AXS have been using as their reasons for why AXS is better than mechanical, by reeling off hypothetical scenarios that not everyone experiences witg mechanical.

Lets lay it out in a list:

1.AXS solves cable rattle.
Response: If you have a modern frame you have internal guides so don't suffer cable rattle.

2. Less maintenance, yes you have to change gear cables on mechanical once in a long while, you don't however have to reroute cable housing, and could it be argued that the time spent changinging an inner cable probablg equates to less time than you spend charging AXS?

3. Perfect shifting.
Response: Mechanical also shifts perfectly as proven in the video further up the page if you know how to shift properly. I would agree electric shifting makes sense like Di2s 2 x system but for 1 x I can't see how little to never a mishift may happen, that a £800 upgrade is the answer..

4. Weight.
Response: Weight is roughly the same between mechanical and electronic yes, but the caveat is all the otherwise cable weight is now concentrated in the rear mech on the end of rear chainstay, look at bikes like the zerode as to why low unsprung mass is preferable.

I could go on but quite frankly I can't be arsed to type anymore on my phone in this thread.
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 7:46 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
I agree with the above, except 'so probably don't need to keep creating hypothetical 'problems' that the AXS setup could cause, and let those who have or do run it share their feedback of real world, actual pro's & con's'

This is exactly what all the guy with AXS have been using as their reasons for why AXS is better than mechanical, by reeling off hypothetical scenarios that not everyone experiences witg mechanical.

Lets lay it out in a list:

1.AXS solves cable rattle.
Response: If you have a modern frame you have internal guides so don't suffer cable rattle.

2. Less maintenance, yes you have to change gear cables on mechanical once in a long while, you don't however have to reroute cable housing, and could it be argued that the time spent changinging an inner cable probablg equates to less time than you spend charging AXS?

3. Perfect shifting.
Response: Mechanical also shifts perfectly as proven in the video further up the page if you know how to shift properly. I would agree electric shifting makes sense like Di2s 2 x system but for 1 x I can't see how little to never a mishift may happen, that a £800 upgrade is the answer..

4. Weight.
Response: Weight is roughly the same between mechanical and electronic yes, but the caveat is all the otherwise cable weight is now concentrated in the rear mech on the end of rear chainstay, look at bikes like the zerode as to why low unsprung mass is preferable.

I could go on but quite frankly I can't be arsed to type anymore on my phone in this thread.

fair play. we could back and forth for hours with little outcome. Some folk like it, some don't, such is life with many different products.

the only thing I would say with regards to cable rattle and mis-shift is that whilst you don't suffer from it, others might do.

I have been more after 'real world' experience to pass on to the OP, that guesstimates and theories.

anywho, hopefully we have provided the OP with enough info and food for thought to make a decision if AXS is right for them or not.
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 7:58 Quote
v7fmp wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
Seems we are going a little off topic here. My link to the 34sc review was to try and discredit the utterly ridiculous statement that both the previous mentioned forks were 'shit'. As per usual, I very much doubt adespotoskli has spent anytime, let alone lots of time on both forks to come up with such a detailed bit of feedback on them.

Feel free to prove us wrong tho and explain your findings and how you came to your conclusion.

Also Danzzz88, we are talking about AXS here, I asked you a few questions on your experience with AXS, seeing as you have such a strong opionion on it.... still awaiting your feedback.

I would agree is out of topic here but you started it

I did ride fox and rs suspension, after riding bos deville 34/ deville fcv , dvo onyx/diamond and crc custom damper, fox and rs ride like shit for me. It's that simple.
Don't actually care to prove you wrong and you have not discredit anyone buy giving a link to a favored review, *edit you actually proved my point, if your only argument is a review from a bike website, it's irrelevant
What differentiates a top sram rear mech and axs? You skip the shifting cable but you get a super sensitive shifter that you can flick it with your pinky finger, how's that preventing the overshifting when you ride a trail or rock litterd climbs and try to downshift? Isn’t it possible to flick it by accident? If yes then what's the gain?

Maybe you should be more descriptive or detailed with your summary of parts that you didn't get on with, rather than a blanket statement of 'XYZ is shit'. It doesn't give any useful feedback and makes you come across as someone with little knowledge or experience, which by the sounds of it isn't the case, as you have stated you have tried lots of other forks.

I guess I was trying to highlight that a bit more info can go a long way to help someone make a decision if they are asking for help... which they are (albeit not about suspension forks as we go off on a different subject again).

But its not for me to tell you how to communicate or conduct yourself on a bike forum, so please ignore all my comments and feedback and do what you wish.

Anyway, back to talking about the subject matter... AXS.... I personally have never experienced an 'accidental' shift. my shifter is set up far enough away from my grip so that doesn't happen for me. But dependant on your setup, I guess it is possible.

We do understand now that you are not a fan, so probably don't need to keep creating hypothetical 'problems' that the AXS setup could cause, and let those who have or do run it share their feedback of real world, actual pro's & con's.

good stuff.
This isn't about forks so I give little importance on the subject of forks and even less how I come out to people,
now as far as hypothetical problems, it seems that overshifting that requires an amount of effort is an issue for some people, but accidentally actuating the shifter button twice when you are about to shift if you hit something in the trail is not possible? That thing is as soft as my rasberry control buttons, I asked the same question don't know how many times but still no answer, apart from the actuation mechanism with their flaws fo both what makes the Electronic 99% shift better than a top range sram der compared to the price difference. we still discuss how inappropriate my sense of humor or lack thereof is, but on the subject nada.
And fancy, latest tech etc are not an argument if in reality you don't get an advantage over the mechanical ones
flag 700-pirate
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 12:12 Quote
There was AXS. Then came Prime9.
flag DHhack
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 13:16 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
I agree with the above, except 'so probably don't need to keep creating hypothetical 'problems' that the AXS setup could cause, and let those who have or do run it share their feedback of real world, actual pro's & con's'

This is exactly what all the guy with AXS have been using as their reasons for why AXS is better than mechanical, by reeling off hypothetical scenarios that not everyone experiences witg mechanical.

Lets lay it out in a list:

1.AXS solves cable rattle.
Response: If you have a modern frame you have internal guides so don't suffer cable rattle.

2. Less maintenance, yes you have to change gear cables on mechanical once in a long while, you don't however have to reroute cable housing, and could it be argued that the time spent changinging an inner cable probablg equates to less time than you spend charging AXS?

3. Perfect shifting.
Response: Mechanical also shifts perfectly as proven in the video further up the page if you know how to shift properly. I would agree electric shifting makes sense like Di2s 2 x system but for 1 x I can't see how little to never a mishift may happen, that a £800 upgrade is the answer..

4. Weight.
Response: Weight is roughly the same between mechanical and electronic yes, but the caveat is all the otherwise cable weight is now concentrated in the rear mech on the end of rear chainstay, look at bikes like the zerode as to why low unsprung mass is preferable.

I could go on but quite frankly I can't be arsed to type anymore on my phone in this thread.

1. Aluminum and steel frames with internal tubes?

2. Charging a battery isn’t active time. Plug it in and walk away.

3. Lever throw is important for some people. Deep in the xc pain cave and not really thinking straight, getting the same shifting result every effin time is beyond important.

4. Sure the weight is similar, but which can take a harder hit?

5. Why are you so invested in this? I’m a Shimano guy but I can still see the advantages of axs. Doesn’t mean I’ll buy it, doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s cool and sure doesn’t mean I’ll judge people for buying it.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 15:28 Quote
Well of course there is always a counter argument or specific example that is the point. I could counter argue that most people that can afford AXS probably don't run it on a steel or even aluminium frame. I could also say changing an inner cable is a 5min job. The point is there is always two sides to the coin but what the mech guys are all saying is that AXS is not worth the cost to them to rectify issues that are either rare, minor or non existant. It's not like mechanical is better in every way but neither is AXS too so ultimately the deciding factor is cost, and at 3 x the price for an AXS mech than xtr or xx1 and 6x more than XT for most people it just doesn't make sense to buy it.
flag DHhack
Posted: Nov 11, 2020 at 16:58 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
Well of course there is always a counter argument or specific example that is the point. I could counter argue that most people that can afford AXS probably don't run it on a steel or even aluminium frame. I could also say changing an inner cable is a 5min job. The point is there is always two sides to the coin but what the mech guys are all saying is that AXS is not worth the cost to them to rectify issues that are either rare, minor or non existant. It's not like mechanical is better in every way but neither is AXS too so ultimately the deciding factor is cost, and at 3 x the price for an AXS mech than xtr or xx1 and 6x more than XT for most people it just doesn't make sense to buy it.

To you. It doesn’t make sense to you. Your metrics have nothing to do with what the market will bear.
flag v7fmp
FL
Posted: Nov 12, 2020 at 0:25 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
v7fmp wrote:
adespotoskyli wrote:

I would agree is out of topic here but you started it

I did ride fox and rs suspension, after riding bos deville 34/ deville fcv , dvo onyx/diamond and crc custom damper, fox and rs ride like shit for me. It's that simple.
Don't actually care to prove you wrong and you have not discredit anyone buy giving a link to a favored review, *edit you actually proved my point, if your only argument is a review from a bike website, it's irrelevant
What differentiates a top sram rear mech and axs? You skip the shifting cable but you get a super sensitive shifter that you can flick it with your pinky finger, how's that preventing the overshifting when you ride a trail or rock litterd climbs and try to downshift? Isn’t it possible to flick it by accident? If yes then what's the gain?

Maybe you should be more descriptive or detailed with your summary of parts that you didn't get on with, rather than a blanket statement of 'XYZ is shit'. It doesn't give any useful feedback and makes you come across as someone with little knowledge or experience, which by the sounds of it isn't the case, as you have stated you have tried lots of other forks.

I guess I was trying to highlight that a bit more info can go a long way to help someone make a decision if they are asking for help... which they are (albeit not about suspension forks as we go off on a different subject again).

But its not for me to tell you how to communicate or conduct yourself on a bike forum, so please ignore all my comments and feedback and do what you wish.

Anyway, back to talking about the subject matter... AXS.... I personally have never experienced an 'accidental' shift. my shifter is set up far enough away from my grip so that doesn't happen for me. But dependant on your setup, I guess it is possible.

We do understand now that you are not a fan, so probably don't need to keep creating hypothetical 'problems' that the AXS setup could cause, and let those who have or do run it share their feedback of real world, actual pro's & con's.

good stuff.
This isn't about forks so I give little importance on the subject of forks and even less how I come out to people,
now as far as hypothetical problems, it seems that overshifting that requires an amount of effort is an issue for some people, but accidentally actuating the shifter button twice when you are about to shift if you hit something in the trail is not possible? That thing is as soft as my rasberry control buttons, I asked the same question don't know how many times but still no answer, apart from the actuation mechanism with their flaws fo both what makes the Electronic 99% shift better than a top range sram der compared to the price difference. we still discuss how inappropriate my sense of humor or lack thereof is, but on the subject nada.
And fancy, latest tech etc are not an argument if in reality you don't get an advantage over the mechanical ones

indeed, this isn't about forks, and I have explained many times my reaction to your blanket 'shit' comment. But we have dealt with that, so lets not mention it again.

You are correct tho, your questions haven't been answered, so lets cover those to put them to bed....

accidentally actuating the shifter button twice when you are about to shift if you hit something in the trail is not possible - Not something I have ever had happen in the 18 plus months of owning AXS. And not something I have heard others mention. In theory it could happen if you have a combination of AXS paddle position, poor grip on the bars, unusual ergonomics.

That thing is as soft as my rasberry control buttons - I have no idea what this means. The paddle needs a certain amount of force to activate. Whilst it doesn't need moving far, it does need a positive push on it.

Electronic 99% shift better than a top range sram der compared to the price difference - I wouldn't say its 99% better, so cant agree with what someone else has said. If you had both X01 AXS and 'regular' X01, both brand new and setup, then you would struggle to see any real difference. But give it six months use, in the slop and mud and I am confident the AXS would still be shifting as well as it was when new, whereas the mechanical setup would probably need some TLC to still be running as smooth.

And without someone doing this back to back test (including you or I) then its all perceived or personal opinion.

And fancy, latest tech etc are not an argument if in reality you don't get an advantage over the mechanical ones - Again, this is personal opinion. I think it is an advantage over the mechanical setup. I have flawless shifting everytime I ride, without fail. Would I have experience the same with a mechanical setup, its hard to say, without a time machine and being able to recreate the last 18months worth of riding. But having had experience of a mechanical setup in the past, it has never always worked without fail. Maybe that's luck, maybe that's my maintenance schedule, no one can say.

again, from a personal level, I have enjoyed owning it, it has caused me zero issues and allowed me to continue to ride my bike in all conditions. And I would highly recommend it to anyone who was thinking about it.

I understand that you have your reservations about the system, and that's totally cool, but at least try and be a bit more open minded and constructive with your criticism of it.... or here is a thought, see if you can try and find a bike with it on and try it for yourself.

much love and enjoy the ride! Big Grin

 


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