Can somebody explain why dh/fr bikes are so expensive?

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Can somebody explain why dh/fr bikes are so expensive?
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flag dlxx
Posted: Mar 16, 2011 at 13:46 Quote
Most of dh bikes are priced little less than a decent off road motorbike which is made from the same stuff plus engine and electronics. Some bikes' cost can even be compared to a decent small car. So really what is there to pay for? Most of the frames and parts if not all are not handmade and are mass produced in factories in vietnam and taiwan. Can somebody with industry experience explain why they are so expensive? Because I tend to believe that it's all profit for the bike industries. Thanks
flag hekehekeee
Posted: Mar 16, 2011 at 14:08 Quote
the $ pays for research and tech on the bike
flag almightybenners
Posted: Mar 16, 2011 at 14:14 Quote
bikes are made in far fewer quantities to cars and motor bikes and each frame is different very few parts are common across a range of bikes even in one manufacturers range (with the exception of headtubes and bbs) is all down to economys of scale, vw put an order in for say 600000 suspension shocks they cost hardly anything, as the tooling only has to be set up once, but if say fox put in an order for 10000 of their shocks the tooling set up cost will be the far greater in relation to the cost of each shock so the price is more, also a bike design usually only lasts a year whereas a generation of car may be around for 5-10 years before it gets replaced so the cost of making them is alot less comapred to the retail value as the process can be made alot more streamlined.
flag dlxx
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 at 2:05 Quote
almightybenners wrote:
bikes are made in far fewer quantities to cars and motor bikes and each frame is different very few parts are common across a range of bikes even in one manufacturers range (with the exception of headtubes and bbs) is all down to economys of scale, vw put an order in for say 600000 suspension shocks they cost hardly anything, as the tooling only has to be set up once, but if say fox put in an order for 10000 of their shocks the tooling set up cost will be the far greater in relation to the cost of each shock so the price is more, also a bike design usually only lasts a year whereas a generation of car may be around for 5-10 years before it gets replaced so the cost of making them is alot less comapred to the retail value as the process can be made alot more streamlined.

I agree about the amount of orders determines price. But about the designs, If you judge from specialized the bike design changes every 4-5 years. In this time other companies could use the same design in countries that are not patented, (look at the big hit for example) which I guess means they also use the same factory same setup...etc In some occasions where we see totally similar bikes from different companies it usually means they are OEM, designed and made by asian manufacturers and the only thing they do in europe/us is paint them and put the parts on them. Corrent me if wrong.
flag almightybenners
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 at 2:18 Quote
dlxx wrote:
almightybenners wrote:
bikes are made in far fewer quantities to cars and motor bikes and each frame is different very few parts are common across a range of bikes even in one manufacturers range (with the exception of headtubes and bbs) is all down to economys of scale, vw put an order in for say 600000 suspension shocks they cost hardly anything, as the tooling only has to be set up once, but if say fox put in an order for 10000 of their shocks the tooling set up cost will be the far greater in relation to the cost of each shock so the price is more, also a bike design usually only lasts a year whereas a generation of car may be around for 5-10 years before it gets replaced so the cost of making them is alot less comapred to the retail value as the process can be made alot more streamlined.

I agree about the amount of orders determines price. But about the designs, If you judge from specialized the bike design changes every 4-5 years. In this time other companies could use the same design in countries that are not patented, (look at the big hit for example) which I guess means they also use the same factory same setup...etc In some occasions where we see totally similar bikes from different companies it usually means they are OEM, designed and made by asian manufacturers and the only thing they do in europe/us is paint them and put the parts on them. Corrent me if wrong.
yes but as soon as someone starts charging £3000 for a frame then, everyone is like hmm we can get away with charging more if people are willing to pay £3000 instead of the £1000 we are charging. a good example of this is downhill forks, as soon as the bos idylle came out and people were paying the extra £600-700 that it cost over the other other manufacturers prices suddenly a fox forty or a boxxer wc is £1500 and there are xc forks costing 900 quid?!
flag dlxx
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 at 7:08 Quote
almightybenners wrote:
dlxx wrote:
almightybenners wrote:
bikes are made in far fewer quantities to cars and motor bikes and each frame is different very few parts are common across a range of bikes even in one manufacturers range (with the exception of headtubes and bbs) is all down to economys of scale, vw put an order in for say 600000 suspension shocks they cost hardly anything, as the tooling only has to be set up once, but if say fox put in an order for 10000 of their shocks the tooling set up cost will be the far greater in relation to the cost of each shock so the price is more, also a bike design usually only lasts a year whereas a generation of car may be around for 5-10 years before it gets replaced so the cost of making them is alot less comapred to the retail value as the process can be made alot more streamlined.

I agree about the amount of orders determines price. But about the designs, If you judge from specialized the bike design changes every 4-5 years. In this time other companies could use the same design in countries that are not patented, (look at the big hit for example) which I guess means they also use the same factory same setup...etc In some occasions where we see totally similar bikes from different companies it usually means they are OEM, designed and made by asian manufacturers and the only thing they do in europe/us is paint them and put the parts on them. Corrent me if wrong.
yes but as soon as someone starts charging £3000 for a frame then, everyone is like hmm we can get away with charging more if people are willing to pay £3000 instead of the £1000 we are charging. a good example of this is downhill forks, as soon as the bos idylle came out and people were paying the extra £600-700 that it cost over the other other manufacturers prices suddenly a fox forty or a boxxer wc is £1500 and there are xc forks costing 900 quid?!

Thats exactly what I think. Its not actual production, distribution or whatever COST. Its just added value that makes more profit for companies. I think its pretty easy to realise that even from the offers at bike shops. When a new bike is sold 3000 in 09 and next year the same 09 model new is sold 2000 it means it was never really worth 3000. In general when I see huge sales in things that arent promo offers I know that previously it was overpriced. Its a shame though cause mountain cycling is an amazing sport and poor kids are just excluded from it. (like most of the labeled "x treme" sports)
flag hekehekeee
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 at 8:47 Quote
so we should support crc!

but no lbs = no local scene
flag pbuser102331
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 at 8:56 Quote
almightybenners wrote:
bikes are made in far fewer quantities to cars and motor bikes and each frame is different very few parts are common across a range of bikes even in one manufacturers range (with the exception of headtubes and bbs) is all down to economys of scale, vw put an order in for say 600000 suspension shocks they cost hardly anything, as the tooling only has to be set up once, but if say fox put in an order for 10000 of their shocks the tooling set up cost will be the far greater in relation to the cost of each shock so the price is more, also a bike design usually only lasts a year whereas a generation of car may be around for 5-10 years before it gets replaced so the cost of making them is alot less comapred to the retail value as the process can be made alot more streamlined.

Agreed to a certain extent but,motox and trials bikes are no where near sold in the numbers that cars and regular road motorcycles are and they are roughly the same price as an mtb,then is the mfr side of it,lot's of bikes are built in one factory i,e meridia build a vast amount of specialized bikes.

But the biggest bugbear for me is that most shops make upto 60% on certain bikes,now ok it is the shops discretion whether or not they offer you deals,but in all honesty if all bikes dropped by 10 even maybe 20% then surely they would sell more as the pricing is a lot more realistic,only the few can afford 4-8 thousand bikes and it's becoming a rich mans toy.
flag hampsteadbandit
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 at 13:36 Quote
Can somebody explain why dh/fr bikes are so expensive?

because compared to the "mass markets" of automobiles, motorbikes and electronics, mountain bikes are made in very small quantities

small quantities are always expensive

the modern mountain bike frame is actually expensive to produce in designing it, in terms of the tooling to make the hydroformed tubeset, tooling for the extruded / forged frame components (head tube, bottom bracket, pivots, dropouts, etc.), CNC programming, jigs for welding

then all the production costs of actually having the tubing drawn and formed, all the components extruded / forged and CNC machined, the tubes cut and mitred, jigged and tacked, aligned, welded, heat treated, checked for alignment, cleaned, painted, decalled, shipped

Fox shock absorber is expensive, can almost cost as much as the frame production

and then you have the cost (profit) of the distributor, and cost (profit) of the bike shop, before it gets into the sweaty hands of the customers...


ultimately, mountain bikes are high-end sporting goods, not essential items (like food) and the old saying goes..."if you want to play, you gotta pay..."
flag Iberian
Posted: May 3, 2011 at 8:14 Quote
hampsteadbandit wrote:
Can somebody explain why dh/fr bikes are so expensive?

because compared to the "mass markets" of automobiles, motorbikes and electronics, mountain bikes are made in very small quantities

small quantities are always expensive

the modern mountain bike frame is actually expensive to produce in designing it, in terms of the tooling to make the hydroformed tubeset, tooling for the extruded / forged frame components (head tube, bottom bracket, pivots, dropouts, etc.), CNC programming, jigs for welding

then all the production costs of actually having the tubing drawn and formed, all the components extruded / forged and CNC machined, the tubes cut and mitred, jigged and tacked, aligned, welded, heat treated, checked for alignment, cleaned, painted, decalled, shipped

Fox shock absorber is expensive, can almost cost as much as the frame production

and then you have the cost (profit) of the distributor, and cost (profit) of the bike shop, before it gets into the sweaty hands of the customers...


ultimately, mountain bikes are high-end sporting goods, not essential items (like food) and the old saying goes..."if you want to play, you gotta pay..."

And a modern dirt bike isn't?

Every year they are trying to wring an extra 1% out of each bike. Everything is machined and it includes an engine. Fox shocks come on dirt bikes too. They have greater shipping costs and they have dealers.

I like to ride both but the bottom line is people will pay about the same for a bike as they will a dirt bike hence the prices are about the same. Difference is you won't find a dirt bike for 50% if it doesn't sell that year. When I went to by my son's bike even as an '07 in 2010 the cheapest I could find was about 18% off.
flag pbuser102331
Posted: May 3, 2011 at 10:20 Quote
Iberian wrote:
hampsteadbandit wrote:
Can somebody explain why dh/fr bikes are so expensive?

because compared to the "mass markets" of automobiles, motorbikes and electronics, mountain bikes are made in very small quantities

small quantities are always expensive

the modern mountain bike frame is actually expensive to produce in designing it, in terms of the tooling to make the hydroformed tubeset, tooling for the extruded / forged frame components (head tube, bottom bracket, pivots, dropouts, etc.), CNC programming, jigs for welding

then all the production costs of actually having the tubing drawn and formed, all the components extruded / forged and CNC machined, the tubes cut and mitred, jigged and tacked, aligned, welded, heat treated, checked for alignment, cleaned, painted, decalled, shipped

Fox shock absorber is expensive, can almost cost as much as the frame production

and then you have the cost (profit) of the distributor, and cost (profit) of the bike shop, before it gets into the sweaty hands of the customers...


ultimately, mountain bikes are high-end sporting goods, not essential items (like food) and the old saying goes..."if you want to play, you gotta pay..."

And a modern dirt bike isn't?

Every year they are trying to wring an extra 1% out of each bike. Everything is machined and it includes an engine. Fox shocks come on dirt bikes too. They have greater shipping costs and they have dealers.

I like to ride both but the bottom line is people will pay about the same for a bike as they will a dirt bike hence the prices are about the same. Difference is you won't find a dirt bike for 50% if it doesn't sell that year. When I went to by my son's bike even as an '07 in 2010 the cheapest I could find was about 18% off.

Mfrs know people are willing to pay it,but also most dirt bike mfrs are part of a larger company.
flag Iberian
Posted: May 4, 2011 at 6:54 Quote
"Mfrs know people are willing to pay it,but also most dirt bike mfrs are part of a larger company."


True and it helps for sure. Another thing that helps is there is a real race scene with a lot of money going into it with national TV coverage. In the summer on Saturdays you can actually watch events where the winners are making more than 500 or a 1000 dollars on regular TV OTA channels. The best riders are making 1 million+ with sponsorships and there are plenty pulling in 100k+.

TV time and advertising will probably mean the end of the little bike mfgs. They won't be able to afford the cool riders and they won't get the advertising the main players would and they will eventually go out of business not being able to keep up with the huge R+D and low prices a big company can afford. Some of the soul of the sport would be lost. Though we may get better bikes at lower prices.
flag Rigaud
Posted: May 4, 2011 at 7:22 Quote
marquis wrote:
Iberian wrote:
hampsteadbandit wrote:
Can somebody explain why dh/fr bikes are so expensive?

because compared to the "mass markets" of automobiles, motorbikes and electronics, mountain bikes are made in very small quantities

small quantities are always expensive

the modern mountain bike frame is actually expensive to produce in designing it, in terms of the tooling to make the hydroformed tubeset, tooling for the extruded / forged frame components (head tube, bottom bracket, pivots, dropouts, etc.), CNC programming, jigs for welding

then all the production costs of actually having the tubing drawn and formed, all the components extruded / forged and CNC machined, the tubes cut and mitred, jigged and tacked, aligned, welded, heat treated, checked for alignment, cleaned, painted, decalled, shipped

Fox shock absorber is expensive, can almost cost as much as the frame production

and then you have the cost (profit) of the distributor, and cost (profit) of the bike shop, before it gets into the sweaty hands of the customers...


ultimately, mountain bikes are high-end sporting goods, not essential items (like food) and the old saying goes..."if you want to play, you gotta pay..."

And a modern dirt bike isn't?

Every year they are trying to wring an extra 1% out of each bike. Everything is machined and it includes an engine. Fox shocks come on dirt bikes too. They have greater shipping costs and they have dealers.

I like to ride both but the bottom line is people will pay about the same for a bike as they will a dirt bike hence the prices are about the same. Difference is you won't find a dirt bike for 50% if it doesn't sell that year. When I went to by my son's bike even as an '07 in 2010 the cheapest I could find was about 18% off.

Mfrs know people are willing to pay it,but also most dirt bike mfrs are part of a larger company.

Agree, and it's not 1000 frames of one particular model that makes it a big production run compared to 5000 to 50000 motor bikes sold world wide.
flag rich888
Posted: May 4, 2011 at 7:24 Quote
I would guess most of the money goes on development costs
flag propatrol
Posted: May 4, 2011 at 7:29 Quote
The reason they charge so much is we as bikers are stupid enough to pay.It cost's the manufacturers very little to produce a frame,even a complex frame such as the Trek Session 88 only takes an hour to weld,tubes are cut,formed,machined,within another 2/4 hours.So there really is not a lot of man hours involved in the manufacturing end of it.The major costs are the design/marketing of the bike to convince us that all the old bikes are crap and we will suck if we don't get this one.If we were smart we'd all be riding Horst link bikes and saying enough to the major mfgs...
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