Official Vernon Riders Thread

PB Forum :: Canada - West
Official Vernon Riders Thread
Author Message
flag Poachninja
O+
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 7:58 Quote
I think specialized cut off all their “ambassadors”, which I’m not sure if that means fully employed athletes or just Instagram influencers who get cheap bikes. Maybe it’s a spectrum. Whatever the case, they did it very impersonally, which is creating a bit of a backlash. Seems like a bit of a faceplant on their part. Norco did something similar with their lower tier teams recently but at least they acted like they felt bad about it and went through the motions of trying to look like they’d help cut athletes find new sponsors.

Methinks it looks like it’s going to be a tough year for bike assembly companies. Maybe we’ll get some good deals in the used market soon
flag cameronbikes
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 9:54 Quote
Poachninja wrote:
I think specialized cut off all their “ambassadors”, which I’m not sure if that means fully employed athletes or just Instagram influencers who get cheap bikes. Maybe it’s a spectrum. Whatever the case, they did it very impersonally, which is creating a bit of a backlash. Seems like a bit of a faceplant on their part. Norco did something similar with their lower tier teams recently but at least they acted like they felt bad about it and went through the motions of trying to look like they’d help cut athletes find new sponsors.

Methinks it looks like it’s going to be a tough year for bike assembly companies. Maybe we’ll get some good deals in the used market soon

What is a bike assembly company?
Like the ones who just slap a sticker on catalogue frames and charge a high premium like "La Mere" or that one out of Squamish? Can't recall.
I am super amped for companies that have been making large profits and making this sport inaccessible for many consumers to have to bring prices down. But it appears that in fact some of the elevated prices were not just gouging (10% increase on bike prices when a container legit did go up ten times but when that container is like 1% of the cost of the total bike) but actual fixed prices and so I can't be a total douche because some of those actual humans will lose their companies or jobs.
flag jesse-effing-edwards
O+
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 11:20 Quote
Assemblers take frames from company X (made in taiwan etc) and put them together for shipping with all the other bits (suspension etc) and ship it out, pretty much. Middleman all the stuff from different suppliers.

.why do you see used deals Jeff? Surplus of new stuff or people selling to pay rent.
flag Poachninja
O+
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 15:16 Quote
By assemblers, I mean the companies that make complete bikes, some make frames like trek and giant, most do not. I specified assembly specifically because some of the parts makers (Fox, shimano maxxiss etc) have much better market situations.

Contrary to popular belief, bike assemblers are not gougers but rather virtually commodity producing price takers. There aren’t many listed ones, but the biggest one, giant, is. It has net profit margins of between 5 and 9 percent in any given year. To put this another way, if Giant dropped the price to their distributors by 5pct, they would make no money.

This kind of margin puts them in the ranks of other makers of competitive low differentiated things, like cars and dirt bikes, but nothing special. However, I can only get financial data on Giant, and these guys are going to be the lowest cost producer being so huge and vertically integrated. I suspect the others, unless they can really charge a premium, are just scraping by or even losing money. This isn’t surprising, given how f*cking competitive the industry is. I can think of probably 20 assemblers without having to go to google, and not one of them will have a market share of above 10pct.

Bike companies aren’t the reason bikes are expensive, you, the buyers, are, or precisely our consumer preferences are. There’s little scale in high end bikes because everything is so customizable, as demanded by you. Every maker, and there are dozens, has at least 7 models built around differing travel, each model has at least 4 frame sizes, sometimes split between 2or three materials. How many dirt bike makers are there? 6 of any significance? Just looking at Yamaha, there are only 2 frame variations between all their competitive dirt bikes. Also, dirt bike standards have been relatively stable over time. Bikes, however have been changing dramatically over the years. This means changing fabs and processes with shorter depreciation schedules on fabs, driving up costs. You can try to blame this on the manufacturers but it’s more the development cycle of bikes, which are newer and subject to more change. My 2007 ATV is pretty much the same as a 2022 of the same displacement. A 2007 spec mtb would be impossible to sell at almost any price to todays serious mountain biker. This is why they can make twice as much as mid tier bike assembler on a motorized vehicle that cost half as much.

There are bike companies that make money and the best way to find them is to go to the pinkbike polls to find the brands that have significant market share in their product, Shimano, SRAM, Fox, Rockshox, and Maxxiss come to mind. Shimano, for instance makes over 20pct net margin, which is better than Apple.

All companies are profit maximizersvbut the ability to actually set their own prices (and thus gouge)) is a function of market power, and the industry structure of biking is as competitive as exists. As long as you, the consumer, care about head angles to a half degree, have chainstay length preferences honed down to a cm, and will quickly upgrade into every perceived advancement, companies will cater to you but at a price. And to the rest of you who think you don’t care about such things, how many of you still cling to your 2007 bike, only replacing things that break with the standard of the original? Would you buy a replacement spec,d exactly like that bike today at, say, 1/2 the price or less than today’s new new thing? If you think so, it is most likely self delusion, because if enough of you wanted that, companies like giant would be happy to make them and probably make better margins doing so.
flag jaydawg69
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 16:11 Quote
the meme was awesome... Specialized makes the best bikes bar none and the "influencers" that got turfed only made $1500 a month so not a full time gig. Influencers don't influence, Bruni and Finn influence.
flag vernonjeff
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 16:24 Quote
jaydawg69 wrote:
the meme was awesome... Specialized makes the best bikes bar none and the "influencers" that got turfed only made $1500 a month so not a full time gig. Influencers don't influence, Bruni and Finn influence.



I also like their new CEO Scott Mcquire who was the CEO of Dyson. As if they needed any more experience with sucking.
flag johnovey
O+
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 17:25 Quote
Mountain bikes are a luxury, so you will pay if you want to play.
Groceries on the other hand, are a necessity.
Checked out Loblaw's financials for last year: 3.5% increase in sales, 35% increase in profit!
Nope, no gouging there.
flag jaydawg69
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 17:42 Quote
vernonjeff wrote:
jaydawg69 wrote:
the meme was awesome... Specialized makes the best bikes bar none and the "influencers" that got turfed only made $1500 a month so not a full time gig. Influencers don't influence, Bruni and Finn influence.



I also like their new CEO Scott Mcquire who was the CEO of Dyson. As if they needed any more experience with sucking.

The best vacuums and the best bikes. I bet you’ve never ridden one.
flag vernonjeff
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 18:21 Quote
jaydawg69 wrote:
vernonjeff wrote:
jaydawg69 wrote:
the meme was awesome... Specialized makes the best bikes bar none and the "influencers" that got turfed only made $1500 a month so not a full time gig. Influencers don't influence, Bruni and Finn influence.



I also like their new CEO Scott Mcquire who was the CEO of Dyson. As if they needed any more experience with sucking.

The best vacuums and the best bikes. I bet you’ve never ridden one.

I would bet you anything your wrong... I will give you though that I have never owned one and that i get a lot of my opinion on how they seem to be the kiss of death in world cup racing... 5 years ago...

Right now the 2 best brands are Transition and YT...
flag jaydawg69
Posted: Dec 15, 2022 at 19:41 Quote
vernonjeff wrote:
jaydawg69 wrote:
vernonjeff wrote:




I also like their new CEO Scott Mcquire who was the CEO of Dyson. As if they needed any more experience with sucking.

The best vacuums and the best bikes. I bet you’ve never ridden one.

I would bet you anything your wrong... I will give you though that I have never owned one and that i get a lot of my opinion on how they seem to be the kiss of death in world cup racing... 5 years ago...

Right now the 2 best brands are Transition and YT...

Specialized is a couple of levels above.... read/watch some unbiased reviews.
flag jesse-effing-edwards
O+
Posted: Dec 16, 2022 at 7:00 Quote
Is it really fair to compare moto to bikes? Would there not be fewer producers simply for the fact that a guy in his garage can't really build a motor? Custom small operations seem totally unrealistic, where as for bicycles with access to taiwan one guy can start up selling just dozens a year, which makes it easier to have way more players and more 'innovation' (aka few standards). For all the companies who produce dirtbikes you would have to get approval from head office or something to make weird shit.

Also, with bikes, you have to pedal, so you can't just have some big slab of a seat to put your ass on wherever feels best, so sizing is a big deal. I'm sure there are a few smaller and bigger riders who wished moto had a greater size range, but I'm obviously no expert. Stock dirtbikes are proportionately cheaper than bicycles, but isn't there a whole industry of aftermarket shit that is mega bucks made by small players?

While I do agree there is way too much 'innovation' (boost!) I think MTB spent 30 years stuck in a rut as road biking's ugly cousin. Basically all tech came from shitty road bikes and it left MTB with skinny rims, crap geo etc. and only in the last 15 years has there been a dramatic change in the way bikes handle because they are finally be designed for the purpose. I think this is settling now and I would hope that we see more value. You can dfinitely get a no-excuses bike for under 5 grand, which will give you most of the performance of the 12k dentist rigs out there if you can bare to ride metal frame. So I think we're at the point where people in 10 years probably won't laugh at the bike you had a decade ago. I could use lots of components from about 10 years ago now, but frame geometry was just garbage, but in the last 5 things haven't change that much and I think it bodes well for the value segment. That said, people love novelty, so I expect there will be lots of amazing new innovation like super double boost and weird headsets that make perfectly good parts obsolete.
flag cameronbikes
Posted: Dec 16, 2022 at 10:22 Quote
jesse-effing-edwards wrote:
Is it really fair to compare moto to bikes? Would there not be fewer producers simply for the fact that a guy in his garage can't really build a motor? Custom small operations seem totally unrealistic, where as for bicycles with access to taiwan one guy can start up selling just dozens a year, which makes it easier to have way more players and more 'innovation' (aka few standards). For all the companies who produce dirtbikes you would have to get approval from head office or something to make weird shit.

Also, with bikes, you have to pedal, so you can't just have some big slab of a seat to put your ass on wherever feels best, so sizing is a big deal. I'm sure there are a few smaller and bigger riders who wished moto had a greater size range, but I'm obviously no expert. Stock dirtbikes are proportionately cheaper than bicycles, but isn't there a whole industry of aftermarket shit that is mega bucks made by small players?

While I do agree there is way too much 'innovation' (boost!) I think MTB spent 30 years stuck in a rut as road biking's ugly cousin. Basically all tech came from shitty road bikes and it left MTB with skinny rims, crap geo etc. and only in the last 15 years has there been a dramatic change in the way bikes handle because they are finally be designed for the purpose. I think this is settling now and I would hope that we see more value. You can dfinitely get a no-excuses bike for under 5 grand, which will give you most of the performance of the 12k dentist rigs out there if you can bare to ride metal frame. So I think we're at the point where people in 10 years probably won't laugh at the bike you had a decade ago. I could use lots of components from about 10 years ago now, but frame geometry was just garbage, but in the last 5 things haven't change that much and I think it bodes well for the value segment. That said, people love novelty, so I expect there will be lots of amazing new innovation like super double boost and weird headsets that make perfectly good parts obsolete.


Definitely agree RE: the pace of change etc but at the same time I wonder if we are stuck more in the RUT of the old style of car upgrades where the 57 vs the 56 and a half chevy (or whatever, I am Not actually into cars) was something people just HAD TO HAVE or same idea for the cell phone style of upgrades where we are just wanting better because it is better but good enough is waaaay more than we actually needed before.

So, question is, while you say that today's bike is as good as you think you will ever need, did you say the same thing 10 yrs ago? I personally did not want to change my Devinci Atlas for anything else even though it is 2012-201r ish. But rode a revel rascal and it is definitely better. Not apples as one is XC and the other decidedly trail but there is a notable difference in the ride. For me I actually hate many aspects of my Rascal, though I am making bar height adjustments and those hate seems to be changing to dislikes and getting used to. When I do go back to my Atlas I am not actually much faster on the ups and I am surprised how I was not shit scared on the downs before.
flag vernonjeff
Posted: Dec 17, 2022 at 11:52 Quote
DJ, freeride and DH arent that much different than 10 years ago. They are moving the tire sizes up on DH. There arent any 10 inch travel bikes at the moment. They switched most fork to air about that time but where we are seeing the innovation is on the Enduro bikes. They are back to 2005 with the big hit suspension idea that in the day didnt gain traction because they actual tested it with tests; not with opinion, slackening or straightening the track. They found no difference. Marketing departments and HR department werent rally a thing in bike shops... So drinking, art and function were a thing.

We are being marketed to death. We need the small guys again... Chumba or Turner to name a couple. These guys got pushed out because they didnt think they could compete in a carbon market. I actually talked to Dave Turner about it.. I have an email from him if you guys want me to post it if I can find it. Solid guy. took pride.. I'm hoping now that there is a push back to metals for DH maybe we will see these guys start creating art again...

#specializedhad1goodbike
flag d-man
O+
Posted: Dec 17, 2022 at 12:27 Quote
vernonjeff wrote:
DJ, freeride and DH arent that much different than 10 years ago. They are moving the tire sizes up on DH. There arent any 10 inch travel bikes at the moment. They switched most fork to air about that time but where we are seeing the innovation is on the Enduro bikes. They are back to 2005 with the big hit suspension idea that in the day didnt gain traction because they actual tested it with tests; not with opinion, slackening or straightening the track. They found no difference. Marketing departments and HR department werent rally a thing in bike shops... So drinking, art and function were a thing.

We are being marketed to death. We need the small guys again... Chumba or Turner to name a couple. These guys got pushed out because they didnt think they could compete in a carbon market. I actually talked to Dave Turner about it.. I have an email from him if you guys want me to post it if I can find it. Solid guy. took pride.. I'm hoping now that there is a push back to metals for DH maybe we will see these guys start creating art again...

#specializedhad1goodbike
There aren't any 10"travel bikes because they are not needed. There are small independent manufacturers out there still, problem is the cost of making small batch hand built bikes is ridiculously expensive.
Couple dudes who worked for lever at ns billet built a couple very sick one off bikes.
There is only so much innovation you can do on a bicycle. Ibis has a new suspension design on their ebike, high pivots are relatively new except for Balfa years ago.
Trust forks were innovative and worked pretty good from my experience unfortunately the economy sank the company before dw could perfect the design.
Williams racing products has a new gearbox design, Nicolai has belt drive gear box design....
Quite whining about the past and enjoy the present.
flag vernonjeff
Posted: Dec 19, 2022 at 7:58 Quote
I wouldn't call it whining.. Maybe reminiscing... I'm looking at a YT Jeffsy for a trail bike next year but even though probably ok for 2022 it will never be a Trek Liquid or a Turner 5 spot. Progress gives us things like global warming.. Its never a good thing if we dont look back at the past. Old music, Old movies and bike from 2010 just an idea.

On another note has anyone notice the NOCS ATM has been moved to Jan?

We have a couple of people from our little group of shitbirds running this year... Will call for speeches after xmas.

 


Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv42 0.017209
Mobile Version of Website