Powered by Outside

Best Full Suspension Platform For All-Around Riding

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
Best Full Suspension Platform For All-Around Riding
  • Previous Page
 Post Message | Latest Comment
Author Message
flag cawleeeb
Posted: Sep 5, 2017 at 23:31 Quote
Obviously it's widely known that every suspension design will have some kind of inherent compromise, in exchange for better riding properties in another aspect of a particular ride. However, after doing a fair amount of research, I haven't been able to find much in the way of consistent evidence for one design being the best all around. In fact, it's been quite difficult to dig up any articles/forums that discuss the best suspension designs, even to within a single riding discipline!

So, my question is: What is the best suspension platform for all-around riding?

I understand that's a rather open-ended question, so if any responders feel the need to narrow down a certain platform to it's best performance within just one or two of the various riding disciplines (XC, Trail, All-Mtn, DH, DJ, etc.), by all means, do as you please. I'm searching for feedback on pretty much any functioning suspension design currently available on the market, although if you know of a new design that will revolutionize the industry, do all of us readers a favor and spill the beans!

For example, to name some of the more prominent designs: VPP (Santa Cruz), FSR (Norco), Horst (Specialized), DW-Link (Pivot), Single Pivot (GT), R3ACT-2 PLAY (Marin/Polygon), Floating Pivot (Giant), Switch-Infinity (Yeti), Delta (Evil).
I by no means mentioned every last design on the market, but simply the ones which seem most common in my riding area, or what I notice to be promoted on social media. Each of these layouts and linkage arrangements seem to have their benefits and drawbacks.

For instance, IMO some positive elements of a linkage design are minimal bobbing and efficient pedaling while both seated and standing up, being low-maintenance, long-lasting, quiet, excelling while climbing/descending, strong braking traction, and a natural technical ability up or down. On the other hand, a design that produces the exact opposite behavior in any of the above categories might be considered compromised in some respects. The overall idea should be discussing which design has positives that most outweigh the drawbacks, especially WHICH design in particular has best ratio of pros to cons.

I'm hoping to make an All-Mtn bike purchase in the next month or two, and am quite stuck attempting to decide which brand I'd like to chose for my next ride. I've narrowed down my search quite solidly as to what my preferences are for wheel size, amount of travel, frame geometry, etc. However, I am still with my doubts as to what suspension platform I would get the job done in all around riding, hence the question. Additionally, I am currently studying towards a Mechanical Engineering degree, which I hope to eventually apply in the cycling industry, so a forum like this has huge potential to provide extensive research towards my career, not just my cycling obsession.

A fascinating thread could be developed from here, once it gets, er, rolling, so I would greatly appreciate any and all sincere responses for the above reasons and more!

Thanks!
flag shoshy
O+
Posted: Sep 5, 2017 at 23:41 Quote
Basically if Dave Weagle designed it, it's good.
Anything with dual link is USUALLY good all around choice. Depending on the design, they tend to be very stiff laterally and efficient pedlers.
flag SleepingAwake
FL
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 6:57 Quote
Your question is rather pointless as little difference in the pivot placement can make a huge difference in things like leverage ratios, chain growth and so forth.
I recently started planning a downhill frame and was playing around mostly with different vpp setups and you can get completely different suspension characteristics out of this same basic design. So a well designed VPP will work very well and a poorly designed VPP will perform poorly.
flag liamOenduro
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 7:21 Quote
Switch infinity (yeti) is really good and very versatile but also the delta system (evil) I've heard is amazing
flag DonLopez
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 8:42 Quote
With Rocky Mountain's Ride-9, you have 9 settings to make minor changes in the bikes geometry for different riding conditions. I consider my Altitude a great all-around bike.....Don
flag titaniumtit
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 8:52 Quote
shoshy wrote:
Basically if Dave Weagle designed it, it's good.
Anything with dual link is USUALLY good all around choice. Depending on the design, they tend to be very stiff laterally and efficient pedlers.

Phew! That's sure good to know now that I've just ordered a mojo and being a porker, I can rest easy without over analysing bike suspension platforms. Phew!

;d
flag cawleeeb
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 9:31 Quote
DonLopez wrote:
With Rocky Mountain's Ride-9, you have 9 settings to make minor changes in the bikes geometry for different riding conditions. I consider my Altitude a great all-around bike.....Don

I've certainly heard rumors of Rocky Mtn bikes handling/riding well all around, most especially the Instinct. However, this forum is more intended to discuss suspension linkage designs, not necessarily adjustable geometry.
flag cawleeeb
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 11:02 Quote
shoshy wrote:
Basically if Dave Weagle designed it, it's good.
Anything with dual link is USUALLY good all around choice. Depending on the design, they tend to be very stiff laterally and efficient pedlers.

Interesting, I've certainly heard that the Dual Link is a solid default option. From what I could tell from my research, Weagle's design is a primary basis for almost every relatively simple four-bar design on the market. Most of the bike companies which are without the patent but still wishing to create a similar design form an ever-so-slightly different version of the system (looking at you, Giant). However, as @SleepingAwake mentioned, a carefully designed VPP setup has the potential to function quite well. But...from what I've been told, VPP is also quite high maintenance, and tends to run through bearings quicker than normal. This begs the question, is there a way to arrange the pivots on a VPP system that maximizes the positive aspects of the platform, while minimizing creaking and general maintenance?
flag cawleeeb
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 11:05 Quote
liamOenduro wrote:
Switch infinity (yeti) is really good and very versatile but also the delta system (evil) I've heard is amazing

Do you have personal experience with either, or some technical knowledge that can effectively compare the two? Bringing some of the more commonly used designs in for discussion to compare would be helpful as well.
flag BikePilotOne
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 at 12:29 Quote
I don't have any real time on current Yeti or Evil platforms. Between Pivot-implemented DW and Santa Cruz and Intense implemented VPPs I prefer the VPPs. Seem to pedal much better and absorb bumps about the same.
flag cawleeeb
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 at 0:18 Quote
BikePilotOne wrote:
I don't have any real time on current Yeti or Evil platforms. Between Pivot-implemented DW and Santa Cruz and Intense implemented VPPs I prefer the VPPs. Seem to pedal much better and absorb bumps about the same.

Huh, ironically that's almost the exact opposite from what I've heard. While most consider it a solid setup, I had previously thought It was a common design largely because of the popularity of the bikes which employ the design, such as Santa Cruz and Intense. They seem more influenced by a 'cool' factor and loyal customers, rather than making superior bikes to the competition, but that could be wrong!
The majority of riders I've talked to who have considerable riding time on both VPP and systems such as DW-link seemed to consider VPP overly harsh through the chunder.
Any thoughts as to why your riding impressions came out differently?
flag cawleeeb
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 at 0:33 Quote
SleepingAwake wrote:
Your question is rather pointless as little difference in the pivot placement can make a huge difference in things like leverage ratios, chain growth and so forth.
I recently started planning a downhill frame and was playing around mostly with different vpp setups and you can get completely different suspension characteristics out of this same basic design. So a well designed VPP will work very well and a poorly designed VPP will perform poorly.

This is the exact point of the discussion though, no?
To talk through what the optimal pivot placement and best mechanics are for each of the various designs, and ultimately,
which system is the best all-around?
I can see there being an element of pointlessness if only VPP was being talked about,
but this conversation should involve almost any design on the market.
flag BikePilotOne
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 at 8:32 Quote
CALEBTNORMAN wrote:
BikePilotOne wrote:
I don't have any real time on current Yeti or Evil platforms. Between Pivot-implemented DW and Santa Cruz and Intense implemented VPPs I prefer the VPPs. Seem to pedal much better and absorb bumps about the same.

Huh, ironically that's almost the exact opposite from what I've heard. While most consider it a solid setup, I had previously thought It was a common design largely because of the popularity of the bikes which employ the design, such as Santa Cruz and Intense. They seem more influenced by a 'cool' factor and loyal customers, rather than making superior bikes to the competition, but that could be wrong!
The majority of riders I've talked to who have considerable riding time on both VPP and systems such as DW-link seemed to consider VPP overly harsh through the chunder.
Any thoughts as to why your riding impressions came out differently?


I think VPP and DW mechanically end up doing essentially the same thing so in the end (both allow the designer to tune the axle path, effective pivot location and and shock ratio) it's all down to implementation. From all I've read I expected to like the DW bike better, and maybe I would have liked a different DW bike better, but I thought the Pivot 429 trail I demoed pedaled worse than the Intense Spider, Intense Recluse or Santa Cruze Bronson I demoed. With the pivot I had to run it in the middle shock setting (trail/platform) to climb out of the saddle without undue suspension movement. I generally ran the other demo bikes in the open position.

I had ambitions of demoing ibis and yeti's latest offerings but haven't made that happen yet. I liked the intense enough that I went and bought one right away. No prior brand affiliation or bias, it just worked awesome.

I think it really comes down to how each system is tuned to ride. I like to hop, jump, manual and generally play around lot and like to stay out of the seat as much as possible. Intense seems to really hone in on that type of riding style and Santa Cruz isn't far behind (it's just a little more mellow). The pivot felt like it was purpose built to sit and spin and felt a little out of sorts when I wanted to stand up and play.

Also note that my demos weren't totally apples to apples. The pivot was also the only 29er. That shouldn't impact bobbing when peddling. Each bike had the suspension tuned by the demo shop mechanics and in each case they seemed to really know what they were doing. I glanced at sag and it seemed good. Still there could be some difference in tuning/setup. Also I demoed each bike on a different day in different locations so certainly not scientific.

I also recently rented an Sworks enduro 650b and a process 153 at ski resorts. Both were awesome descending and pretty awful climbing. The bronson was a little harsher than either going down but massively better going up though the Nomad is probably a more direct comparison there.

Another I demoed recently was a Scott Spark. It didn't seem to have the mechanical anti-bob of the vpp or dw bikes, but it had a really good damping setup and worked well enough especially combined with the bar mounted shock switch. I used that a lot. On the intense spider, which is similar in travel and weight, I can just leave it open all the time. The trail I rode that bike on is local to me and very smooth so can't comment too much on rocky chudder.

Note the pivot wasn't bad at all, especially once I took to riding in trail mode, it just didn't really gel with my style. I'd love to demo a pivot 5.5, I think that'd be more to my liking.
flag zsandstrom
O+
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 at 11:49 Quote
Let me start off by saying that this is a question for the ages. It's also what really changes the personality of bikes that have near-equal geometry charts. Take the SC HighTower and YT Jeffsy, for instance. On paper, the only differences are 5mm of rear travel, and a few mm and a few degrees here and there. But if you ride them back to back with similar build kits (which I have), it's immediately apparent that HighTower is more plush and stable (classic vpp mid-stroke sensitivity), while the Jeffsy is more lively and responsive (typical horst link mid-stroke support).

SleepingAwake is right in saying that it's all down to execution. A well-executed DWlink will outperform a "meh" VPP, and vice versa. Asking "Which platform is the best for general riding" is better stated as "which execution of which platform is best for general riding?". And that is basically asking "Which team of engineers is best able to understand the suspension needs of general riding and translate that into its mechanically functional equivalent?", which is the same as asking "Which brand has the best suspension?". Taking that in the context that you're bike shopping, you're basically asking which brand of bike you ought to buy next, based on suspension quality. And, to that, I'd say the same thing everyone tells everyone: go ride a bunch of bikes and see what fits your style the best.

But, in the interest of having an awesome discussion about suspension.....

The quality of your suspension is as much determined by pairing the right shock with your platform as by the platform itself. For example Horst link designs are often quite progressive. They offer great mid-stroke support (again, as a rule of thumb), but that comes at the expense of small-bump sensitivity in the mid-stroke. As a result, a lot of Horst Link bikes (Specialized, YT), benefit from a coil, or very linear air shock like a Float X2, DVO Topaz, or a coil. That's why you see a ton for Spesh Enduro's running coils: they compensate for the mid-stroke "meh" in the FSR (which, IMO, is at best a mediocre execution of Horst). On the other hand a more linear platform can benefit from a low-volume air shock with a corset sleeve so you can keep the plushness without bottoming out on speed bumps.

In that sense, it makes it really hard to say that there's a "best platform". What there is, I think, is a well-executed platform with the right shock for the platform given your riding preferences.

I'm not a Big Brand Fanboy, but in that sense I really have to give Trek credit. They have a really well executed version of the full-floater, and if you pair it with one of their RE:Aktiv shocks, it's a damn good ride. On principle, I hate all things that are proprietary; I think they're just a way to lock consumers into spending more money with your company (looking at you, Cannondale). However, the Trek/Penske/Fox collaboration created arguably the ideal shock for the full-floater, and it shows. Good job fellas.

Of the platforms-shock combos I've ridden, here are the ones that really stood out to me as star performers:

DWLink as executed by Ibis, with a corset style air shock
Horst link as executed by YT, with a very linear air shock or coil
Full Float as executed by Trek, with the Re:Aktiv shock
VPP as executed by Intense, with a moderately progressive air shock (unless you're talking '18 Nomad, then coil fo sho)

Also, BikePilotOne, for the record: as a former Ibis owner, I'm super unimpressed with Pivot's DWlink execution. Pivot should have spent more $$$ on suspension development than e-bike nonsense. Go ride an HD3/4 and then tell us what you think. Worlds better. You get nearly equal pedaling to VPP, with none of the pedal jack issues.
flag titaniumtit
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 at 13:37 Quote
Yowsers! Decent summary right there.

Just picked my mojo 3 up 7 hrs ago so stoked!
This thing is BUILT like it's owner but wow suss is supple in open mode or pedal for first part of stroke then ramps up nicely.
Exactly as the boomf stated and how Ibis wanted the feel to be.

1 things for sure, I'm gonna have fun on these plus tyres. Loadsa traction / grip.

VPP is great too for me though VPP for down out right speed was great on the blur xc c and spider. But for VPP generally they glue to ground the greater the travel.
VPP also sinks into it's initial travel more than others iirc (been a while since ridden VPP) lol

I mean ya could buy Giant full suss which is a cheap free floater than VPP.

Choice is massive and I whittled this purchase down from one other bike, ironically a VPP ACV +.

Basically get test riding a few or just carpark - right impulse buy like me! Haha
  • Previous Page

 


Copyright © 2000 - 2026. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv65 0.008554
Mobile Version of Website