Do I suck at cornering or is this a bike setup issue?

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
Do I suck at cornering or is this a bike setup issue?
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flag ryetoast
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Posted: Apr 19, 2020 at 16:45 Quote
So I have an all-mountain hardtail (2011 Canfield Yelli Screamy) and a full suspension trail bike (2016 Banshee Spitfire). I am 5'3" and an intermediate-ish (experienced but slow) rider. The Yelli corners like it's on rails--29er hardtail, 69ish degree head angle, lean it into a flat corner and it goes around no problem. The Spitfire.... Not so much. It seems to wallow and need mid-corner adjustments that frequently end with me washing the front and landing on my face. Sag is nominal, suspension otherwise feels fine, tires are the same on both bikes; stack height, stem length, crank length etc are the same on both bikes... So what the heck am I doing wrong? I assume that on the hardtail the head angle essentially gets steeper as you enter the corner and this is not the case on the full squish bike which is slacker anyway, but, like, other people are going around corners on enduro bikes, so this must be a 'me' problem, right? Any thoughts appreciated...
flag gmoss
Posted: Apr 19, 2020 at 17:00 Quote
sometimes it is just the bike's ergos. sometimes it is you. My 17 5010 did not like to turn, hated flat corners, always felt light on the front like it was going to wash out. Never could get comfortable on it. Went to an 18 Tallboy, and instantly it railed the same corners I was just hitting, and I did nothing different. That was going from a 27.5 to a 29, but still. I have not had another bike handle like the 5010 so not sure what the deal was with that bike.

may be good to compare the ergos on both closely and see if you can close in on why so you can fix it.
flag TheSlayer99
FL
Posted: Apr 19, 2020 at 18:54 Quote
Always look at body position before bike setup. It sounds like you’re leaning off the back in corners instead of being aggressive over the front of the bike. If you try cornering more through your hips by leaning the bike over and pointing them the direction you’re turning instead of turning through the bars, that should help you get around corners better.
flag Wishiwasbiking
Posted: Apr 19, 2020 at 19:05 Quote
One of the better cornering videos I’ve seen is from Fabien Barel, it shows how to lean the bike over and maximizing grip:

https://youtu.be/gF5K9V2w6W8
flag gmoss
Posted: Apr 19, 2020 at 19:20 Quote
Always good to work on technique, but if the bike just doesn't want to turn, position will only do so much. Some of it may come down to fit on the bike, some technique. I literally rode my two bikes a day apart on the same trail and did nothing different and the TB just plain turned better, wanted to turn, railed comparatively. I thought it was me for a year. Always rode rear heavy, front wanted to push, even with less sag, clicker adjustments. Nothing changed it.

Hopefully not the case here, but it sounds like it. Good idea to look at all possibilities though.
flag rahrider
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Posted: Apr 19, 2020 at 22:56 Quote
Like you suggest, you are probably not weighting the front wheel enough.

When you ride an old school geo hardtail most people tend to ride it with their weight further over the rear of the bike but with the steep HTA, your weight remains somewhat over the front wheel.

With slacker HTA bikes you need to move your weight forwards to keep the front wheel from washing out. The slacker HTA allows you to keep your weight forwards without feeling like you are going to go over the bars.

Have a look at this video - it helped me a lot.
flag ryan198232
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Posted: Apr 21, 2020 at 13:02 Quote
Have you tried slowing your fork rebound down?
On a previous Rune I had, when I first bought it, the front end was washing out on me. Turned out the rebound was way too fast and causing the problem. Once I had it dialed, it’s still one of all time favourite bikes
flag friendlyfoe
Posted: Apr 21, 2020 at 13:31 Quote
ryan198232 wrote:
Have you tried slowing your fork rebound down?
On a previous Rune I had, when I first bought it, the front end was washing out on me. Turned out the rebound was way too fast and causing the problem. Once I had it dialed, it’s still one of all time favourite bikes

This ^ . Fork rebound set too slow and you lose grip, set too fast and it will push mid corner. So find a test loop and run it multiple times to find what works. I would suggest setting it what you think is a little too slow (2-3 clicks out from closed) and do the loop changing only the rebound. You should also probably speed it up by 2 clicks for each lap so the difference is noticeable. Also keeping in mind that your body positioning will play a huge role in what feels right.

The other thing is tires. If you are testing this on a smooth hardish flat corner then XC tires will probably have better grip than a big knobby enduro tire meant for loose conditions. Take a look at especially your front tire's outside knobs. Are they worn or practically untouched? Flat corners are where you need to be getting the bike all the way over for max grip. Things sometimes get a little bit drifty but in a controlled way and you can carry more corner speed.
flag gmoss
Posted: Apr 21, 2020 at 18:01 Quote
Imo, settings should never be able to so far off that the bike just doesn't want to turn, unless some extreme measure, like way too little air in the shock, or something wrong susp wise or fit. Really wished I could have figured out why my first new bike would not turn. I know susp, spending the previous 15 years on dirt bikes, setting up my own susp and even doing some of my own valving. That bike just bedoggled me. Anywho, hopwfully the solution is simpler for you.
flag ryan198232
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Posted: Apr 21, 2020 at 18:27 Quote
gmoss wrote:
Imo, settings should never be able to so far off that the bike just doesn't want to turn, unless some extreme measure, like way too little air in the shock, or something wrong susp wise or fit. Really wished I could have figured out why my first new bike would not turn. I know susp, spending the previous 15 years on dirt bikes, setting up my own susp and even doing some of my own valving. That bike just bedoggled me. Anywho, hopwfully the solution is simpler for you.
I also didn’t think it could be any settings washing the front end out on me either... I grew up on dirt bikes and the Rune I had issues with wasn’t my first bike, but when I first got it, the front wheel would push through certain corners and wash out.... with a Magic Mary.
Did some reading and all I did was slow the rebound down a couple clicks, and that bike was on rails. Still the best handling bike I’ve had to date, though I haven’t got to push my clash yet
flag gmoss
Posted: Apr 21, 2020 at 18:39 Quote
Interesting. Maybe some designs are more sensitive than others. I have experimented with settings on my current ride, and my last one and never have I got to a point that I was pushing bad. Interesting stuff. I am always interested in susp discussions and try to pick up on something.
flag ryetoast
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Posted: Apr 23, 2020 at 21:16 Quote
Lot of great suggestions on here, thanks all! I didn't think about needing to compensate for the slacker HTA by riding further forward, that's probably the main thing. I was indeed riding on smooth hardback with unnecessarily knobby tires, and I'm pretty sure the last ride I did on that bike was really chattery DH last year when I turned the rebound all the way fast. Oops.

I was all set to go trail test some changes today but ended up bleeding my brakes instead. If it ain't something...
flag ryetoast
O+
Posted: Jul 6, 2020 at 16:34 Quote
Necroposting my own thread, here, but just for reference in case anyone else is having this issue--I slowed my fork rebound way down and it helped a TON. That combined with being more mindful to weight the front wheel means I haven't had that kind of crash again...knock on wood.

Oh, I also cut my bars down by about an inch. I think having them too wide was making it awkward to get over the front. I'm 5'3, bars are now 750mm and I feel like narrower wouldnt kill me.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jul 6, 2020 at 17:51 Quote
I had issue with front washout, mainly my lack of skill and slack head angle. However moving to a softer grippier front tyre helped massively, a coil conversion on the fork even better but still I was just offsetting my lack of skill and fear to get over the front a bit more on decents. One thing it could be though is stem length, a longer reach reduces front wheel weighting, but a longer stem increases it. Too long a stem feels twitchy but these new ideas of super long reach and short stem can make it real hard to get enough weight through the front tyre. Could also try rolling your handlebars a tiny bit forwards. Don't make the mistake of thinking you literally need your head over the bars though, simply adjusting your cockpit a bit by rolling your bars forward and playing with stem length and spacers can be enough to make the difference without you needing to exaggerate your riding position by unsafely hanging over the front end. Also too soft a front fork with not enough pressure in it or midstroke support can cause washout, you might think running it soft creates more grip and soaks up bumps better, but when it is diving and wallowing about it is going to really knock your confidence to weight the front more.
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