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"Overforking" Rockshox Lyrik Replacment for Fox 36

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"Overforking" Rockshox Lyrik Replacment for Fox 36
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flag tbtel
O+
Posted: Jun 5, 2020 at 21:17 Quote
I've been discussing a new bike build (super stoked!) with my LBS. I asked about switching the stock Fox 36 for a Lyrik Ultimate (loosely based on these articles: https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/forks/suspension-forks/rockshox-2020-lyrik-ultimate-rc2-first-ride-review/ and https://www.bikeperfect.com/reviews/rockshox-lyrik-ultimate-rc2-2020-review) and was recommended to add 10mm travel in order to keep the same geometry. The tech said this was to account for the Lyrik being compressed about a cm at recommended normal sag, which is what provides the good small bump sensitivity it is known for.

I couldn't find much info about this from any online searches, so I figured it could be useful to share this with the DIY mechanics out there. If you know where this has already been discussed, please share links to those sites. I'm not trying to start another fork comparison (there are lots already going), but would be interested to hear from anyone who has experience with similar fork swaps (either direction) and how it effects bike geometry.
flag hmstuna
Posted: Jun 5, 2020 at 21:58 Quote
First off this seems a bit unnecessary, both forks are really good and spending money to switch one out seems kind of silly. If you're looking for more suppleness of the top you could just put a Luftkappe in your current fork and not have to switch it out at all.

The lyrik compressing a centimeter isn't exactly true. It does sag a bit, but only a few mils maybe 3 to 4 so bumping it up a full ten would be a bit overkill, unless you're looking to make the bike a bit more agressive. The 2021 forks also claim to fix this with a new airspring design so if you buy one of those problem solved. Or like I said you could just keep the perfectly fine fork you have on it and spend the extra money getting it serviced more regularly which will make far more difference to fork suppleness than a lyrik.
flag tbtel
O+
Posted: Jun 6, 2020 at 10:29 Quote
Thanks for the info! It's good to know that 2021 will be different.

There was no price difference for me, so the swap was purely preferential. Both are great forks so I would have been happy either way. The shop already had the Lyrik on hand to use with one of these bikes so they had the idea long before I inquired about it.

I'll pull out a tape measure when I have the bike to see exactly how the geometry measures.
flag dood
Posted: Jun 6, 2020 at 22:57 Quote
hmstuna wrote:
First off this seems a bit unnecessary, both forks are really good and spending money to switch one out seems kind of silly. If you're looking for more suppleness of the top you could just put a Luftkappe in your current fork and not have to switch it out at all.

The lyrik compressing a centimeter isn't exactly true. It does sag a bit, but only a few mils maybe 3 to 4 so bumping it up a full ten would be a bit overkill, unless you're looking to make the bike a bit more agressive. The 2021 forks also claim to fix this with a new airspring design so if you buy one of those problem solved. Or like I said you could just keep the perfectly fine fork you have on it and spend the extra money getting it serviced more regularly which will make far more difference to fork suppleness than a lyrik.

Unnecessary indeed!

Sag should be set to rider weight as per mfg recommendation, and I hope that it's nothing less than 15% of travel (as in, 1.5cm on a 100mm fork)......If you really need to worry about the 'geometry', it can be accommodated for on both ends. Run what works. Both ends are adjustable, so meet in the middle.

Sounds to me like a 'tech' that's making stuff up (1cm? really??), and wants to sell you some really pricey new bits......
flag TwoWheelMike
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 0:37 Quote
Which fox 36 is specced on the bike you're looking at? How much do you weigh and how aggressively do you ride?

Honestly the whole "add 10mm" sounds like doggie doodoo. I'm not 100% on the lyrik, but I do have at least some experience. I currently have a fox versus rockshox set of bikes, and despite the 30mm difference in travel (170mm fox 36 vs 140mm pike) the fox is only ~21mm longer.

At the end of the day I feel like the geometry change between brands of forks is minimal. Realistically between the forks there might be some preference involved in what "feels better" but they are both going to be great options. When I chose the fox fork I have on my enduro bike, I did so partially due to my want for better mid stroke support, but mostly because the frame I got had a kashima coated shock. It would have bothered me if it didn't match. That being said, I dont have any regrets running the Fox 36.
flag tbtel
O+
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 10:57 Quote
dood wrote:
Sounds to me like a 'tech' that's making stuff up (1cm? really??), and wants to sell you some really pricey new bits......

It is possible the shop wants to offload the Lyrik and lied about it being planned for this build. They offered to order me one that matched the Fox travel, but said it would steepen the head tube angle if I did.

Again, no extra price to me and they are offering an awesome deal on the build so it's tough to believe they are ripping me off in any way.

TwoWheelMike wrote:
Which fox 36 is specced on the bike you're looking at? How much do you weigh and how aggressively do you ride?

The standard build is specced with Fox Performance, but can be upgraded to Factory with GRIP2 from the manufacturer. The Lyrik Ultimate is being offered by the LBS at the same price point as the Fox Factory (upgrade from the Performance).

TwoWheelMike wrote:
Honestly the whole "add 10mm" sounds like doggie doodoo. I'm not 100% on the lyrik, but I do have at least some experience. I currently have a fox versus rockshox set of bikes, and despite the 30mm difference in travel (170mm fox 36 vs 140mm pike) the fox is only ~21mm longer.

Maybe I'm reading into the 170 vs 140 comparison too much (since they aren't directly comparable models), but it seems like this would suggest the opposite of what the LBS is telling me. Are those the measurements when pressurized without any weight? Is the 9mm difference present when they are both fully compressed?
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 11:36 Quote
tbtel wrote:
dood wrote:
Sounds to me like a 'tech' that's making stuff up (1cm? really??), and wants to sell you some really pricey new bits......

It is possible the shop wants to offload the Lyrik and lied about it being planned for this build. They offered to order me one that matched the Fox travel, but said it would steepen the head tube angle if I did.

Again, no extra price to me and they are offering an awesome deal on the build so it's tough to believe they are ripping me off in any way.

TwoWheelMike wrote:
Which fox 36 is specced on the bike you're looking at? How much do you weigh and how aggressively do you ride?

The standard build is specced with Fox Performance, but can be upgraded to Factory with GRIP2 from the manufacturer. The Lyrik Ultimate is being offered by the LBS at the same price point as the Fox Factory (upgrade from the Performance).

TwoWheelMike wrote:
Honestly the whole "add 10mm" sounds like doggie doodoo. I'm not 100% on the lyrik, but I do have at least some experience. I currently have a fox versus rockshox set of bikes, and despite the 30mm difference in travel (170mm fox 36 vs 140mm pike) the fox is only ~21mm longer.

Maybe I'm reading into the 170 vs 140 comparison too much (since they aren't directly comparable models), but it seems like this would suggest the opposite of what the LBS is telling me. Are those the measurements when pressurized without any weight? Is the 9mm difference present when they are both fully compressed?

Pressurised is irrelevant, sag is measured as a percentage of fork travel determined by bodyweight not fork length and should be set the same regardless of it being Fox or Rockshox. Either they have nothing to lose or are up to something that benefits them by switching, no such thing as a free lunch.

I'm not up to date with the latest axle to crown heights of the latest forks but from what I remember Fox used to have higher axle to crown heights for a given travel than Rockshox.

I generally prefer Fox, seem more supportive and less flexy, at least the previous generation was. But what attracts me about the Rockshox forks now is Push releasing the HC97 damper modification to basically make the rockshox forks operate like an Elevensix. But stock for stock I would always go Fox.
flag friendlyfoe
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 16:22 Quote
It doesn't sound like the shop is out to get you, just that they're over thinking this.

Axel to crown lengths
Fox 36 29 160mm = 567mm (+/- 5mm)
Rockshox lyric 29 160mm = 572mm (no tolerance given)

So the lyric is as long if not a bit longer in terms of physical dimensions. I wouldn't worry about a couple mm of sag. Having the h/a be a tiny bit steeper at full travel isn't going to make any real difference. I would politely decline having the travel changed if you go with the Lyric

What you do need to be paying attention to is the offset. I'm just assuming here that we're talking 29er, Rockshox makes the lyric in 42 or 51mm offset and fox makes their fork with 44 and 51. There wont be a huge difference between the 42 and 44mm forks but if say the fox was 44 and the lyric was 51, or vice versa, this would be a big change. You'll want to stick with the one closer to what the manufacturer recommends. Just something to look out for!
flag tbtel
O+
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 20:02 Quote
Thanks for the info!

It does seem hard to believe that recommended sag would be 15mm larger on the Lyrik (accounting for the 5mm uncompressed difference), but I will ask the shop for a demo when I pick the bike up. They said that fully compressed the the shocks would measure the same height, but I'm beginning to wonder about that as well.
flag TwoWheelMike
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 20:50 Quote
tbtel wrote:
TwoWheelMike wrote:
Which fox 36 is specced on the bike you're looking at? How much do you weigh and how aggressively do you ride?

The standard build is specced with Fox Performance, but can be upgraded to Factory with GRIP2 from the manufacturer. The Lyrik Ultimate is being offered by the LBS at the same price point as the Fox Factory (upgrade from the Performance).

TwoWheelMike wrote:
Honestly the whole "add 10mm" sounds like doggie doodoo. I'm not 100% on the lyrik, but I do have at least some experience. I currently have a fox versus rockshox set of bikes, and despite the 30mm difference in travel (170mm fox 36 vs 140mm pike) the fox is only ~21mm longer.

Maybe I'm reading into the 170 vs 140 comparison too much (since they aren't directly comparable models), but it seems like this would suggest the opposite of what the LBS is telling me. Are those the measurements when pressurized without any weight? Is the 9mm difference present when they are both fully compressed?

Idk about upgrading the fox performance up to the grip 2 damper... maybe it was just the rythem fork, and I'm just remembering incorrectly. I swear I remember being told that the top cap threading is not the same, and therefore incompatible.

The measurements I took were of axle to crown lengths, unweighted. I know they aren't directly comparable, but mostly I was trying to illustrate the differences.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 20:57 Quote
TwoWheelMike wrote:
tbtel wrote:
TwoWheelMike wrote:
Which fox 36 is specced on the bike you're looking at? How much do you weigh and how aggressively do you ride?

The standard build is specced with Fox Performance, but can be upgraded to Factory with GRIP2 from the manufacturer. The Lyrik Ultimate is being offered by the LBS at the same price point as the Fox Factory (upgrade from the Performance).

TwoWheelMike wrote:
Honestly the whole "add 10mm" sounds like doggie doodoo. I'm not 100% on the lyrik, but I do have at least some experience. I currently have a fox versus rockshox set of bikes, and despite the 30mm difference in travel (170mm fox 36 vs 140mm pike) the fox is only ~21mm longer.

Maybe I'm reading into the 170 vs 140 comparison too much (since they aren't directly comparable models), but it seems like this would suggest the opposite of what the LBS is telling me. Are those the measurements when pressurized without any weight? Is the 9mm difference present when they are both fully compressed?

Idk about upgrading the fox performance up to the grip 2 damper... maybe it was just the rythem fork, and I'm just remembering incorrectly. I swear I remember being told that the top cap threading is not the same, and therefore incompatible.

The measurements I took were of axle to crown lengths, unweighted. I know they aren't directly comparable, but mostly I was trying to illustrate the differences.

Think he means swapped for different forks. Fox Rhythm can't use grip 2 as it's basically the same chassis as Marzocchi but I can't remember why. Doesn't make sense as both a grip and grip 2 damper will fit a 36 factory so it must be something unusual.
flag TwoWheelMike
Posted: Jun 7, 2020 at 21:15 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
Think he means swapped for different forks. Fox Rhythm can't use grip 2 as it's basically the same chassis as Marzocchi but I can't remember why. Doesn't make sense as both a grip and grip 2 damper will fit a 36 factory so it must be something unusual.

I'm pretty sure drinking made me miss that. In any case, I'm fairly certain the reason why you cant use the grip 2 damper in that chassis has to do with the topcap diameter and thread pitch not being the same.
flag friendlyfoe
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 at 18:42 Quote
TwoWheelMike wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
Think he means swapped for different forks. Fox Rhythm can't use grip 2 as it's basically the same chassis as Marzocchi but I can't remember why. Doesn't make sense as both a grip and grip 2 damper will fit a 36 factory so it must be something unusual.

I'm pretty sure drinking made me miss that. In any case, I'm fairly certain the reason why you cant use the grip 2 damper in that chassis has to do with the topcap diameter and thread pitch not being the same.

Any information I come up with online says the z1 and any fox 36 fork made after 2015 can accept a grip 2 damper. I have not confirmed this myself.

I believe the rhythm 36 is the exact same fork as the z1.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 at 19:06 Quote
I now remember my confusion. Yes any 36 or Marzocchi Z1 can take a Grip 2.
I was thinking of the article that said the Marzocchi coil wouldn't be compatible with the 36 factory / performance elite, only with the rhythm. Which in itself is weird as the Push ACS3 and Smashpot conversion kits say they are compatible with all of them....
flag TwoWheelMike
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 at 21:13 Quote
Hmmmm.... will have to look more into this. Anyone have these forks to compare?
I only have 2019 36 Factory.
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