Why I regret buying a PUSH Elevensix

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country

Author	Message

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 12:23

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tomhoward379 wrote:

How tall are you?

If a medium fits, the (160mm) Deviate Guide is by some stretch, the best descending bike I’ve ever ridden, short of a DH bike.

They’ve only got mediums left though.

I know that has the best suspension design period, gearbox and high pivot, but it lets itself down by having terrible geometry, way too steep headtube, relatively slack and long seat tube, only comes in 27.5 and the looks leave something to be desired. I also wanted a bike that could potentially withstand a dual crown. I emailed Deviate asking if they were working on a successor to the Guide and if I should wait to see what happens or if they will update the Guide, the basic impression I got from Ben's response at Deviate was that they are not currently developing a successor and that they certainly are not considering another gearbox bike atm. There is too much shit talk and assumptions of gearboxes meaning there is never enough development going into them, people don't buy them after these small companies are paying tens to hundreds of thousands developing the bikes and as such it doesn't become economically viable for them to keep developing bikes based around gearboxes.

tomhoward379

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 12:34

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Oh yeah, despite what everyone says ‘gearboxes are the future’ & ‘I’m definitely getting one next’ very, very few do.

You could get the HA in the 64s, with a 180mm fork, as I am, and lower with an Angleset, though I haven’t felt the need.

As for the STA, it’s never going to be the best climber, but it gets up stuff eventually, and I’m not sure having it any steeper would make much odds.

Highlander not enough travel? It certainly feels like it has more.

R-M-R

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 12:42

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Danzzz88 wrote:

So would you say going for a bike like the Zerode with 160mm travel solely from a suspension performance perspective I can expect a level of suppleness, traction and compliance that will exceed a 180mm travel bike?

No, it's more like all the benefits of running less air pressure in your tires and none of the downsides. The difference becomes noticeable at higher speeds and on very choppy terrain.

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 13:08

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R-M-R wrote:

Danzzz88 wrote:

No, it's more like all the benefits of running less air pressure in your tires and none of the downsides.

So the difference is subtle, and mainly noticeable on high frequency stutter, is that what you are saying? Have you tried a full sus bike with a gearbox before or only lightweight wheel builds?

Basically I want the closest enduro bike I can find in suppleness, traction and feel to a downhill bike but still be able to pedal to the top, and other than the potentially gimmicky Zerode, my only other choices I have finalised to the Geometron or the Propain Spindrift and as a cheap option the YT Capra, but I'm pretty sure at least the Capra isn't in the same league even though it's a great descending bike, it's not the most supple or slack out there compared to some other options. Another choice was a Megatower with Push 11/6 and Cascade link but if I'm paying that much money I thought I might aswell go Zerode.
I guess the question is, is 160mm of 10/10 suspension better for rough downhill gnar than 180mm of 8/10 suspension. If I'm not going to do big jumps is the less travel faster reacting suspension going to feel smoother than the 180mm since I'm unlikely to be using 180mm travel just monstertrucking over roots and rocks.

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 13:17

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tomhoward379 wrote:

I want a bikeI can bike around but then go smash bike parks like Revs on a regular without feeling way undergunned compared to a downhill bike. I know magazines have been saying for years these enduros descend like dh bikes, you no longer need a dh bike, people say I can do anything on my enduro I can on my dh ect ect... But the fact is I had an SB6, at the time was aa good as it got for downhill in the enduro spectrum and the truth is compared to the downhill bikes I tried, they are not in the same ballpark whatsoever, dh bikes are night and day more supple, stiff, supportive and confidence inspiring than an enduro that it's not even close. I'm hoping technology has since progressed though and bikes like the Geometron and Zerode actually genuinely do feel like they are verging on dh bikes rather than the typical yea it's almost like a dh bike when the fact is subjectively it feels like 60% of one.

R-M-R

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 13:48

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What you're saying amounts to "I want the best of everything and no compromises". Naturally, that's what we all want and if it were that easy, there wouldn't be compromises!

My experiments with sprung:unsprung mass ratios have been with traditional drivetrains - or the lack thereof. You can take an existing bike and remove the chain, cassette, and rear derailleur to achieve an essentially identical set-up. Optionally, attach a water bottle or strap some weights to the down-tube. You can also get a somewhat similar experience with an e-bike: higher sprung:unsprung ratio with mass concentrated near the BB.

The "capability" of a bike is more closely related to the geometry than the travel. Might as well have both, of course, but be aware you're looking at bikes with dramatically different geometry that will create dramatically different experiences, even if they both use gearboxes and have similar travel.

My opinion is light wheels and posh suspension address these problems effectively and greatly expand your frame options.

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 14:05

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Well the compromise I'm willing to make is pedal efficiency and climbing performance, I'm either going to be riding flatish trails or bike park/dh stuff so I'm simply looking for the most downhill biased enduro bike I can find. As for the geometry thing, I'm not overly fussed about a steep seat angle for climbing but need it steep enough that if I go for a large reach bike I can at least ride comfortably on flat terrain. The aspects of geo like reach and headangle, bb height ect I know I can adjust with a anglesets, fork travel, offset bushings, pushing the saddle forwards ect ect so bikes like the Zerode I can size up, whack in a -1 degree angleset, bump up fork travel 10-20mm, fit a short stem and push the saddle forwards and be in the ballpark of a Geometron whilst having the benefits of the Zerode suspension.

R-M-R

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 15:24

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In that case, there are plenty of "superenduro" category bikes that fit the bill. Aluminum frame to save some money, then spend what you saved on light wheels and posh suspension.

You mention "the benefits of the Zerode suspension". Is there some reason you prefer it over a Nicolai G16 GPI? Price?

Similar to the Zerode Taniwha, have you considered the Cavalerie Blackbird? Higher pivot and, I've heard, better efficiency.

Please note you can't change the reach of a frame. Well, you can change it a little by changing the inclination of the frame with shock length, offset bushings, fork length, or wheel size, but only a little and not independently of other factors. You can change butt-to-bar distance, but this dimension vanishes when you stand.

The geometry of a Geometron and Zerode Taniwha are very different. You could get a close approximation of a G16, size Small, with a Large Taniwha Mulet 160, size Large, with the following changes to the Zerode:

• -2° headset
• Offset bushings
• Seatpost with offset head, installed backwards for forward offset

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 18:00

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R-M-R wrote:

So Aluminium wise I was thinking the Spindrift, it has huge travel, it's plush and has super low antisquat which I know shouldn't matter once up to speed and the freewheel is disengaged but still nice to know tge bike has not being compromised to pedal. However dual crown support is not recommended and geometry is lacklustre.

As for the Zerode, I was looking at the Katipo as it's geometry is more up to date than the Taniwha and it's a 29er, I am only 5'8 and minimum reach I was concerned about as the smallest size is a large with 475mm reach, however the smallest Geometron G1 I am recommended to ride has 485mm reach so at least from a standing perspective if I can get away with the G1's reach tgen the Katipo should be fine too, the Caveat which brings me to your other question about the seated reach, yes the seat angle is slacker at 75.5 degrees on the Katipo so the effective top tube could be a stretch, hence why I would need to slam the saddle forwards. In terms of why I am not looking at a G16 with gearbox, the answer is I did look into it, but more specifically asked Chris Porter if he could arrange to build me a G1 with gearbox, he straight up said no, the G1 isn't compatible. So I asked Nicolai directly, now of course they still have the g16 pinion, but the geometry is a fair bit behind the g1, so they said yes we csn custom make a g1 frame with gearbox but it's like nearly an extra £900, fair enough you might say, except the standard g16 pinion is already nearly £4000 without customisation, to top it off I was told they couldn't make a chain option only belt drive and that the belt drive the max rear travel is restricted to 155mm. That was the final nail in the coffin, Rob at Zerode has offered me the frame minus the shock, since I already have an 11/6 but including the gearbox, shifter ect for £2700. He is offering a lighter carbon frame with 5mm more travel than the Nicolai for not that far off half the cost, I don't see a purpose paying nearly £5000 for a customised G1 with gearbox when I can't even have more than 155mm of travel just because Nicolai can't be arsed machining anything that isn't already a set plan or sourcing a single speed chain instead of a belt. For that money there is niche companies that will build whatever the hell you want with face to face consultations out of titanium.
The thing is everyone has used the excuse before in the past gearbox bikes are too expensive, the Zerode us stupid money ect, well certainly not nowadays, Rob is offering me a carbon frame and a £1500 transmission for £1000 less than an sb165 frame, it's almost a no brainer. But still I don't want a bike that rides like an sb6 or a v3 Nomad, I want an absolute plow, and I don't know if the Zerode Katipo offers me enough travel and aggressive enough geo to give me what I am after. I was hoping I could try one and have an epiphany as some people seem to do that try them and be like yea, I'm not going back to a derailleur (or telescopic fork if I was to get a motion ride) ever again. I was hoping the difference is that profound that the extra 15mm on the Geometron or 20mm on the Spindrift will not be able to outweigh it over chunky terrain. Because most of what I've watched and read is just that, but then my Yeti sb6 was hyped to hell which is why I bought it and I ended up bloody hating it, when it was stolen all I thought was that sucks, no bike and £7k down the drain, but unlike a bike I had stolen before I didn't think oh crap, that was my baby, I loved that bike. Shortly after it felt like I was glad it was gone and had an excuse to build up another bike. Bet you never heard a Yeti owner aka supposed dentist say anything like that before peeps??

R-M-R

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 18:56

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If you're looking at Propain, the Tyee makes more sense than the Spindrift.

Why do you feel the G16 geometry is behind the G1? They're quite similar and both are miles ahead of the others you're considering.

A zerode Katipo has the same front suspension as other bikes and the rear just has a little less mass. It's not magic and it doesn't transform anything, it just makes the rear suspension work a little better. Find a bike with similar geometry and kinematics and borrow it for a test ride. First ride is as-is, then take off the cassette and chain and mount a full water bottle. That's the Zerode descending experience. These changes don't seem like they will revolutionize the performance of a bike with a traditional drivetrain - and they don't. Neither will a gearbox. Some improvement, yes, but it's doesn't turn an otherwise ordinary trailbike into a downhill bike. If it did, then actual downhill bikes would have gearboxes and would become superdownhill bikes and dominate racing. But they don't.

Also, please note pedal kickback is essentially not a thing, at all. Even if it happens, which is unlikely, it will happen to a diminished extent if you're moving. It's not all-or-nothing. If it happens, you won't feel the full 15° or whatever the maximum possible kickback may be; you'll feel maybe a couple of degrees. Don't worry about kickback.

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 19:17

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So the main reason I had faith in the Zerode suspension is the drop test I showed before about gearbox bikes vs derailleurs..

https://m.pinkbike.com/video/463603/

And aside to the numerous people I spoke to that own a Zerode or reviews I've seen all saying the same thing, the accompanying article to the above video is the G16 vs g16 gpi and according to Pinkbike the difference is very profound. Here is a video review on the Katipo and he says he feels sorry for people riding derailleur bikes.

https://youtu.be/OA6s_Jys9P8

And here is two videos by mtb mag the second specifically saying the Taniwha trail is the plushest bike they have tested in its travel category...

https://youtu.be/J5AN9zGPLys

https://youtu.be/H0jByD6JokM

Anyway I don't expect you to read or be interested in all this but here is a snippet of what I have found on the net and aside from gearbox preference, gripshift and all that malarky, from a purely suspension point of view the gearbox bikes recieve nothing but praise.
Below is a piece of the Pinkbike review, G16 vs G16 Gpi, again saying it is very noticeable.

"There was a massive difference between the two bikes. Most of the riding I did was lift assisted with some pedaling up to various peaks in the Portes Du Soleil, France. In this area, I would choose the Pinion bike hands down, every ride. Yes, it's heavier, but this was only a hindrance when getting it onto lift hooks. It didn't pedal as swiftly as the derailleur bike, but on the downs, it was another–better-–beast. The gearbox bike was so much quieter – almost silent, offered so much more grip and inspired so much more confidence when heading into gnarly sections.

I set five downhill segments and rode them each four times, 40 timed sectors in total. No pedaling, standing starts on Le Pleney. I chose simple sections, including one fire road section (Stage 5) at the end of the trails, to take away rider input as much as possible. On average, the Pinion bike was nearly three seconds quicker over a 3.5-minute track. Huge.

After riding both bikes, I would argue that in very technical, rough, and loose trails the Pinion machine would chip away at even more time, if not purely because of the extra confidence it gave to hammer through sections.

I was undecided whether this was due to the reduction of unsprung mass, the increased amount of pick up (due to two freewheels creating more slack in anti-squat) or the heavier weight of the complete bike. Heavier weight? But hey, people keep telling me a lighter bike is a faster bike? I can't find any evidence that a lighter bike is faster downhill, and something that makes me think the opposite is when I'm trying to follow a heavier rider down the hill. Try following a buddy who is 15kg's heavier than you and see who rolls the fastest.

Nicolai Shootout - Derailleur vs Gearbox

If I lived in an area where regularly pedaling the bike to the top of the hill was needed, I think I would choose the derailleur bike. I generally don't mind grinding a heavy bike to the top of the hill, but the 17kg gearbox brute was a bore. I couldn't calculate how much, but the Pinion bike does drag more than the derailleur bike with a clean and lubed chain. The derailleur bike had more inherent anti-squat in easier gears, which made climbing easier by sitting the bike higher in the travel and pulling the bike up and over steps more easily. Technical climbing is also made more difficult on the Pinion bike; the pair of freewheels increase the engagement interval, which hampers quick, half-pedal strokes when things get trialsy.

For downhill, I am convinced the Pinion bike has a huge advantage, but for XC, it loses out. How about trail riding or enduro? That's still a big, gray zone for me and the answer depends on what this type of riding really is like for you. If you have the horsepower to get the Pinion to the top of a long, mellow road climb followed by a long descent (like we find in Europe), your trip will likely be faster and more fun-filled on the way down, providing there aren't too many techy climbs snuck into the trail. On the other hand: if your trail riding is more akin to a UK trail center, or North American trail, where the ride constantly switches between ups and downs, the derailleur bike is likely to stay ahead here."

R-M-R

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 21:10

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Simply put, the difference cannot exceed the difference due to redistribution of mass. Remove the same mass from the rear wheel of a bike with conventional drivetrain and add the mass of a gearbox in approximately the same area as a gearbox and voilà, an essentially perfect replication of the effect. It definitely makes a difference and it will be more supple, with better traction, than any similarly configured bike with similar travel, but it does not turn a 160 mm bike into a downhill bike.

For the amount of time you've spent researching the topic, you could've just borrowed a bike and tried it. Don't torture yourself thinking about it, just try it!

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 21, 2020 at 21:51

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R-M-R wrote:

I don't expect it to feel like a dh bike all I'm wondering is, will the suspension work better enough that bikes with 180mm and a tuned shock will still not feel plusher than the 160mm Zerode and tuned shock... Is there a piece to the suspension puzzle that directly relates plushness to suspension travel even if not using all of said travel, for example will a bump that compresses the rear wheel only say to the 130mm mark feel plusher on the 180mm bike because it has more what you coud call soft or linear travel for a longer period if that makes sense, like I am in the supple sweet spot for longer? or if not using more than 160mm travel on the Zerode because I don't really do big jumps means that the unsprung mass is benefitting me more than the extra travel? Also what is it about a dh bike that makes them feel like a dh bike, how can you take say a 160mm enduro bike with poor pedalling performance but then go on a dh bike and suddenly the pedalling performance is shocking even if it has 150% antisquat and only a kg heavier build, what makes dh bikes feel stiff and supportive but yet supple and energy sapping even when there is better antisquat and not much weight difference to some enduro bikes, is it lies in the reported figures, is it geometry or rear axle path, or is therw something else going on? There is something about dh bikes that makes them feel like pigs, even if the geometry, antisquat and weight are on par with some enduro bikes and I can't think what must be creating that feel. But at the same time some of that feel is what I am after in my next bike, that heavy frame feeling, loads of midstroke support but yet it glides over bumps like butter feeling.
I hated my Yeti Sb6 as it was polar opposite to what I want in a enduro bike, it was skittish, good pedal efficiency, low traction, poor small bump, cumbersome and I felt stretched across the top of the bike rather than having that hunckered down low behind the bars moto feeling you get on the Capra with all it's sag.

R-M-R

Posted: Jul 22, 2020 at 6:35

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Almost everything you've mentioned is far beyond the scope of sprung:unsprung mass effects.

will a bump that compresses the rear wheel only say to the 130mm mark feel plusher on the 180mm bike because it has more what you coud call soft or linear travel for a longer period if that makes sense, like I am in the supple sweet spot for longer?

Not a chance.

Also what is it about a dh bike that makes them feel like a dh bike, how can you take say a 160mm enduro bike with poor pedalling performance but then go on a dh bike and suddenly the pedalling performance is shocking even if it has 150% antisquat and only a kg heavier build, what makes dh bikes feel stiff and supportive but yet supple and energy sapping even when there is better antisquat and not much weight difference to some enduro bikes, is it lies in the reported figures, is it geometry or rear axle path, or is therw something else going on? There is something about dh bikes that makes them feel like pigs, even if the geometry, antisquat and weight are on par with some enduro bikes and I can't think what must be creating that feel.

It's travel. DH bikes have more travel. If we're talking about seated pedaling, they also have awful ergonomics for pedaling.

some of that feel is what I am after in my next bike, that heavy frame feeling, loads of midstroke support but yet it glides over bumps like butter feeling.

Midstroke support is completely separate from unsprung mass. Gliding over small bumps is the one thing a bike with low unsprung mass will do for you.

I hated my Yeti Sb6 as it was polar opposite to what I want in a enduro bike, it was skittish, good pedal efficiency, low traction, poor small bump, cumbersome and I felt stretched across the top of the bike rather than having that hunckered down low behind the bars moto feeling you get on the Capra with all it's sag.

• Skittish: That's probably due to the geometry (65.5° head-tube angle, short wheelbase, moderately high BB) and below category average frame stiffness.
• Pedal efficiency: I don't see why you wouldn't want this.
• Low traction: Difficult to say what was causing this. Low unsprung mass could help, but only for the rear wheel, of course.
• Small bumps: As above. I'm wondering if your set-up had too much low-speed compression damping.
• Cumbersome and stretched across the top of the bike: Maybe BB height. Not something low unsprung mass can address.
• "Capra with all it's sag": The motion ratio curve of the SB6 is almost flat, so it was probably set up with minimal sag and sat high in its travel. The motion ratio curve of the Katipo is moderately progressive, between the SB6 and the Capra.

I really recommend you try the unsprung mass experiment I discussed previously to understand what this parameter can and can't do. Most of what you want is far beyond the scope of such a change.

Danzzz88

Posted: Jul 22, 2020 at 7:27

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I wish I could experiment, I don't have a second bike to do this to otherwise I would love to.

In regards to your comments about the SB6 please bare in mimd I'm talking about my experience at the time compared to other bikes that were around then and not now. Bikes like the v1 Capra, Canyon Strive, Cube Stereo and dh the Saracen Myst. When I was referring to mid stroke abput the dh bike what I meant was I tried a Saracen Myst and when off the bike pushing the saddle by hand I was like God that spring is form it's going to be way harsh, the spring seemed miles heavier than the pressure in the shock of my sb6, but yet when I rode it over roots and rocks it was just supple and buttery smooth and this brings me to the question I was asking is of more overall travel can have an impact on small and mid size bump also? Because here I was on a bike that the spring seemed was too stiff yet it glided over rocks and roots unlike any bike I have experience.

At the time the SB6 has a long wheelbase, super long chainstays but did have a 0.5 degree steeper headtube than the Capra, also for the time the bb was fairly low.

Nevertheless every bike I tried compared to it felt more stuck to the ground on steep terrain and had less of a wandering front wheel, the Capra v1 happened to be the biggest difference. Suspension setup up was standard, the stock float x that came with the bike, no independant adjustments aside from rebound on that shock, not the drop test regardless of air or tyre pressure resulted in the bike bouncing back up from the ground than any other bike I tried this on at the time. I then thought I would try a coil shock, I bought a cheap battered dhx 5 off Ebay, I played around with it found the correct spring rate and it was way way better but still not perfect. I had to re-bleed the shock myself as ot was in quite a state so I pulled it all apart cleaned and filled with new fluid, but also found the low speed compression still felt harsh when I bought the shock. So I decided to experiment, I decided to assume how the compression stack worked as there was no low/high speed compression adjust on this shock, only propedal. So I swapped shims around and stacked the shim stack in an order that I thought seemed logical and would give me what I wanted. I finally settled on what I guess is like two seperate shim stacks, I raised the shims closest to the piston oriffices slightly higher from the piston with a small shim to reduce the force need to open the stack, the stack was then taperred and at the end of the small shim of the stack I then started another shim stack with a large shim again building a tapered stack. I did this all by assumption and testing and assuming the first stack would act as low dpeed compression and the second after enough deflection would act like high speed. I don't know what I was doing I was just assuming this is how shocks worked and played around with what I had..... Anyway long story short, this is why I asked very early in this thread about the resistance to compression bt hand the Elevensix has and if this is a sign of poor small bump and too much low speed compression. I ask this because the shock I ended up tuning myself felt great on the bike, perhaps a little too less support as it could feel abrupt on very large square edge hits, but on small bump stiff and traction it felt better than how I recieved it and a lot better than the float x. However this shock I effectively tuned myself I cpuld push the shaft in with not too much force at low speed and as I tried to push harder and faster it would resist more. I don't know what Frankenstein shock I produced, wether it was progressive, digredsive, some oddball outlier or flat out a catostrophe from a suspension tuners perspective but nevertheless it had aomewhat of the effect I wanted and worked better than anything I had on the bike previously.

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