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RobMI mikekazimer's article
Sep 26, 2019 at 17:28
Sep 26, 2019
First Look: Ibis' Updated Mojo HD5 Has a Different Approach to Suspension
@owl-X: guess Pinkbike doesn’t deal with imojii characters...
RobMI mikekazimer's article
Sep 26, 2019 at 17:26
Sep 26, 2019
RobMI mikekazimer's article
Sep 25, 2019 at 21:25
Sep 25, 2019
First Look: Ibis' Updated Mojo HD5 Has a Different Approach to Suspension
@loudv8noises: Well you are in the camp I was in for years. I had limited time to ride either my MTB or motorcycle. I had an issue on my KTM where I'd hit some studder bumps and I could not figure out what was happening. Tried everything, clickers, oil viscosity, oil height, etc. Finally figured it out, but what I wanted to be doing was riding a bike on rails. The phenomena I was feeling was packing. Suspension compressed, didn't rebound fast enough, boom boom boom. Felt like crap. As an engineer, I wanted data to back up what was going on. Anyway, knowing what I know now after working on this thing for 3 years and testing with amazing riders way better than I'll ever be, we discovered a few things. First thing, everything is related to each other. You can't make isolated changes. Changing 1 clicker has an effect on another stroke altogether. Also, things get more complicated when you look at balance. Increasing rebound speed on rear, will put pressure on the front. Without data specific to your situation, I'm just spewing BS that should not be listened to, period. What *may* be happening in your situation could be related to the damper design or tune, too much pre-load, too many tokens, or packing. Packing happens when the rebound can't get back fast enough. We see this in the data with the average position being too deep. Opening up the rebound increases the average ride height because the wheel gets back to earth faster. The tuning process I use with our data starts with dynamic sag, can you get an even front and rear dynamic sag on difficult terrain. This will tell you a lot. Next, what's the fork rebound speed. For an enduro racer, >2000 mm/s. Even faster on gnarly rocky stuff. Next, what's the rear rebound compared to the front for every range of strokes? Is it slower or faster. 99/100 it's waaaay slower. So this can be sped up a bit. Next dial in front and rear compression. This is easier to achieve on a lot of bikes believe it or not. It's the thing that makes the bike feel stable in corners, etc. My point about rebound speed for lighter riders: If the fork's over damped on rebound, opening it all the way won't do anything. This is especially true if the rider can't compress the fork deep enough to generate enough spring to drive the fork back down. I'm not going to go on this site and bash any OEM for what they've designed. As far as I'm concerned, these things are engineering marvels. They are asked to create a product that will work for anyone. A high end bike has over 7 Billion suspension permutations (Fox 36, Grip2, FloatX2, both my weapons of choice and I know how they work, and I love them. Look closely though, there is a code on each one so they are not all tuned equally). Here's what I know based on tons of data, if you can feel it, it can be measured. Go to the CushCore website, I quantified the damping effect a Cushcore has on the ride. Had multiple riders do the same ride, same settings, same air pressure, but with CushCore, 15% of the compression strokes across all buckets just disappeared. Total ride vibration went down 12%. I've got the files, strava segments, and waveforms to prove it. If you listen to the experts, they will tell you to open up your rebound until you can't handle it, then back off. With Ibis, they studied the data, tested, repeated 100s of tests on many tunes. We gave them the tools they needed to analyze their bike. Not shaft speeds, but the bike, with leverage curve, geometry. With data, it's the analysis that matters. I could record my voice, it will show up on a graph in the time domain. By looking at the waveform, could you tell what I said? A: No... Telemetry is the waveform, Analysis is voice recognition. I'll end with this, without data, everything I say about your experience on your bike is BS. I may as well be a snakeoil salesman. I could try to speak confidently and you may think I know what I'm talking about. But armed with data to back up what's happening on the bike, well that's a completely different conversation. Rider feeling is still important, but correlating it to data is really cool. BTW, typically on every tune I've been a part of, we increased rebound speed on the fork 50-70%. Rear, up to 100% faster. On some bikes, I couldn't get rebound to go faster than 1200 mm/s and that is dog shit slow. That's not average speed, 95%tile, that the max our system saw. And that's where I throw my hands up and say, get it serviced, speed it up, or put on about 50 lbs and maybe we can make it work. Every situation is different. With billions of permutations on just suspension alone (holding air pressure constant) you could see how things might end up in a non-optimal state. Will be off the grid the next couple of days, but I'll try to check this thread over the weekend. Or just email me: rob@motioninstruments.com. Happy to talk suspension, data, anytime. Life is too short to ride an improperly tuned bike. Stoked to see Ibis launch this bike and allow us to work with them in the process.
RobMI mikekazimer's article
Sep 25, 2019 at 17:02
Sep 25, 2019
First Look: Ibis' Updated Mojo HD5 Has a Different Approach to Suspension
@loudv8noises: Love your photo. Anyone who can drop a knee on the ground on a street bike is cool. Our company, MI, developed the tech Ibis is using. Minnaar is partner in our company and that guy is 100x more of a naysayer than you. That guy can spot bullshit 10 miles away. All I can say is our data has been validated on many dynos for accuracy and repeatability. The folks who have used our kit to develop their bikes are stoked after our tune. In fact, it's their tune with their rider on their bike, we're just providing the data (Example: https://bikeco.com/suspension-testing-with-cody-kelley-and-motioniq/). To answer your question, yes, tons of folks run HSC fully open on their fox 36 and they are >> 150#. In general, lighter riders are getting hosed and we have data to prove this. With modern designed air dampers (positive/negative air chamber, etc), you just can't start dropping air pressure to try to achieve a fuller range of motion (IE, more than 85% of your bike's travel). To boot, dropping air pressure then kills your rebound speed because you have reduced down force. So yes, for a majority of average riders, bikes are over damped. Question for you: If you're designing a bike, how would you develop your suspension to support a wide range of riders, a petite lady all the way to a rock smasher like Richie Rude? At some point, you look at your market and give them a tune that they will enjoy with enough headroom to support a spectrum rider (Any pro EWS/DH). Let them turn the knobs all the way to the right for a change. The key here is the tune has a range that will support their weight / style. The bike also can be balanced. Believe it or not, some bikes out there cannot be balanced from having the wrong tune on the either the fork, shock, kinematic curve, or any variation of all 3. Getting all components to work in concert is actually quite a difficult process. Putting dampers on a dyno does not simulate real riders riding real bikes, on trails. Ok, back to work for me. Shoot me a DM if you want to take the conversation offline.
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