Powered by Outside

Angle Headsets: What's Your Experience?

PB Forum :: All Mountain, Enduro & Cross-Country
Angle Headsets: What's Your Experience?
Author Message
flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 27, 2022 at 23:32 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:

unless it's because you're down under,

Big Grin Too funny. I think you're right Big Grin
flag englertracing
O+
Posted: Mar 28, 2022 at 0:52 Quote
Cane creek weren't the first.
But they certainly hold true to their namesake and creek.


Get a works
I've used them, and installed them in friends bikes. Also true to their namesake they work
flag fielonator
Posted: Mar 28, 2022 at 6:56 Quote
I've got 2 superstar -2 degree sets on different bikes. No downsides as far as I'm concerned. If your frame will allow I'd combine the angleset with a slight increase in fork length. Google bike geometry calculator and you should find something useful.

As an example, i went down 2 degrees on the headset and up 10mm on the fork on my mk1 transition scout.
flag HaggeredShins
Posted: Mar 28, 2022 at 7:42 Quote
Cpembo6 wrote:
Unless I'm over thinking things and missing something obvious??

You're thinking frame measurements and not bicycle measurements. The first is fine for comparing frames or building them, the second is what's actually important to the rider. You're 100% correct that frame reach increases when you pivot the frame down around the rear axle. You'd technically have the most reach, strictly measured on the frame, when the bb and ht are in a horizontal line with each other.

Take an extreme case though: take a 65* head angle frame and reduce the ha to 45* for the same fork length. Sure, your geo table reach becomes way longer but your steerer would now need to be a couple feet long and the bars would practically be inside of your seat post to have them at the same height as before. Reducing head angle has an exponential relationship with decreasing cockpit size--this is true for ha in general, not just anglesets.

ETA: here's an exaggerated example of how your frame reach increases meanwhile your bar reach massively decreases as the ha is slackened.
photo
flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 28, 2022 at 20:33 Quote
Thanks Haggard Shins.
Nice diagram!
You've certainly got me there. Yes, the reach in that scenario would be increasing by around 5mm, if there was a long enough steerer in existence and a large stack of spacers Big Grin

however I beleive if you use a more realistic example, (say 1 to 5 degrees) you might see a different result. Measuring final reach/stack from the BB position (real world riding position) not the ground.

I'm more than happy to be wrong and learn something from this. But I keep running the numbers and they just dont show decreased reach.

Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread Confused I quite enjoy nerding out on MTB stuff.
flag timnoyce
Posted: Mar 29, 2022 at 0:58 Quote
I've had the -2 degree SuperStar Components angleset installed for 2 years now. I've used the bike at least once a week year round and the bearings are still running fine. I thoroughly recommend it. They do offer codes relatively regularly too (Easter, UK Bank Holidays etc) so can often be purchased lower than the normal price.
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Mar 29, 2022 at 1:28 Quote
Cpembo6 wrote:
Thanks Haggard Shins.
Nice diagram!
You've certainly got me there. Yes, the reach in that scenario would be increasing by around 5mm, if there was a long enough steerer in existence and a large stack of spacers Big Grin

however I beleive if you use a more realistic example, (say 1 to 5 degrees) you might see a different result. Measuring final reach/stack from the BB position (real world riding position) not the ground.

I'm more than happy to be wrong and learn something from this. But I keep running the numbers and they just dont show decreased reach.

Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread Confused I quite enjoy nerding out on MTB stuff.

The illustrafion misses a lot of little details though,

You can spend your time nerding out frame geo here though.
bikegeo.muha.cc
flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 29, 2022 at 2:08 Quote
This might pick ap a few of the missed details (like the head tube). Stack should also be compared to the bb position (riding position) not the ground. This exagerated example shows slightly shorter reach with a 45 degree HA. Keep i mind the BB also moves further back (slightly). A realistic HA change of around 2 degrees should show a small reach increase even with spacers to increase bar height (measuring both reach and stack from BB).

photo
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Mar 29, 2022 at 3:41 Quote
That's incorrect, what you actually did there is two different frames overlaying,

the thing with an agle set is you are offsetting the fork steerer inside the head tube, you don't alter the length of the down tube/top tube and head tube angle, like your sketch. by using angle sets you bring the upper part of the steerer closer to the saddle and the wheel further out, if you add the bottom hedset cup racer's height, and the top cup racers height plus the offset you'll see that bb drop and st angle are minor changes in relation to the total offset of the angleset. My jeffsy shortened by 15mm in reach because of the offset. The bb lowered by 3mm and the st by. 5 deg,
flag sonuvagun
Posted: Mar 29, 2022 at 4:07 Quote
This is oddly interesting. Does anyone have any side-by-side before&after shot from the same distance and perspective?
flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 29, 2022 at 22:18 Quote
adespotoskyli wrote:
That's incorrect, what you actually did there is two different frames overlaying,

True, but thats becuase it's physically impossible to install an angleset from 65 degrees to 45 degrees . The headtube would have to physically be changed. Hence the image.Smile The headtube shown in the image isnt actualy the headtube, its the centreline of the steerer (why the downtube looks lonter) , but I agree, the sketch still isnt quire right becuase the top tube shoud be shorter). Reach is definately shorter in this 45 degree HA example. Done another one with a 5 degree change, keeping frame the same, but you need to zoom in too much to see the change, it's not worth posting. Total reach (BB to Bars) is +1mm.

But the previous sketch doesnt actually have a headtube. The most important part for this HA discussion, so I dont have a lot to compare against. lol

Like I said, if you do the same calcs with a realistic 2 degree change, I'm not getting anything but a longer total reach (very slight) which gells with my real world measurements.

But clearly we're not goign to agree. Been fun looking into it though.
flag HaggeredShins
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 0:43 Quote
Negative my dude, your cockpit will shrink with changes to head angle. You're very focused on proving reach increases with an angleset (it does, we all agree) but you're doing some incorrect calculus and I don't believe considering fit implications. There is a countereffect to pivoting the steerer (hint: that's why the shoddy wireframe above doesn't have a headtube Wink ). I'm up late for work so let's do this for real with a less shoddy model and dimensions that maybe somewhat resemble a modern mtb.

The below is rigged up purely for the purpose of demonstrating that your cockpit shrinks at the steerer when the ha is reduced. Everything is constrained such that as the ha is changed, only geo & fit parameters provide an updated value based on a consistent bar height respective to the bb. I don't have the time or energy to make this more realistic or different so keep in mind that these values will be different for every geo out there, but regardless, math tells us that the cockpit will ALWAYS become smaller when the head angle is reduced (between 0 - 90 degrees) because the fit needs to be corrected for loss of bar height.

photo
photo

See above. Calculating changes to reach measured as it is in a geo table does not reflect what's actually happening to your bike fit. If you don't care at all about bike fit implications, then congratulations, an angleset made your reach longer!
flag Cpembo6
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 3:54 Quote
Well, I cant argue with that Haggered Shins !
Not that would i want you to spend any more time on this for a total stranger who is potentially a moron (me). I'm currently in Covid isolation (Son has the sniffles) so I have plenty of time on my hands; what's your excuse Wink

I agree the geo chart reach number is not very usebale for anything other than comparing bikes. Total reach (bb to bar) is more useful.

I'm still not getting the same numbers as you, but I'll put that down to the geo calculator I'm using.

So, it looks like a realistic change for a angleset is around 1.5mm reduced total reach based on your 65 degree to 62.5 degree change. A -2.5 degree angleset will only give you around -2 degrees change of final "geo chart" HA (due to the lower front end), so let's round that to 1mm less reach. Probably not even worth having had this whole discussion Confused Eek Smile

Have a rad day Beer
flag abtcup
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 4:09 Quote
I recently installed a Wolf Tooth -1 Geoshift angleset on a Banshee Spitfire V2. Excellent quality kit and the install went pretty smooth. Lined up the upper and lower cups and used a Park Tools headset press to push them in. Changed my head angle from 66 to 65. I placed a digital angle gauge on the back of the fork stanchion. If the reach was decreased...I can't seem to tell when I'm riding the bike...but I can definitely feel the change in head angle.


photo
flag adespotoskyli
Posted: Mar 30, 2022 at 4:16 Quote
@HaggeredShins can you calculate the hypotinuse as well? The distance between bb and bars or head tube? , I suspect that it will be shorter. That's the actual distance that matters, between the 2 contact points, long reach on it's own won't give more room if stack is low.

 


Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv56 0.016162
Mobile Version of Website