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Fox 36 (not 38) vs. Rockshox Zeb Weight

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Fox 36 (not 38) vs. Rockshox Zeb Weight
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flag ChunkRider
Posted: Jan 27, 2021 at 6:52 Quote
The weight penalty going from FOX 36 to FOX 38 is substantial ~250g, those wanting the added benefits of 38mm stanchion might be fearful of the weight if they pedal their bike around a lot. Going from FOX 36 to a Zeb however - only has a ~60g penalty however, for a 38mm fork with pretty equal performance to the FOX 38.

Seems obvious, but is this a better path for FOX 36 users who want a stiffer fork that they can take to the park on their trail/enduro rigs. Are we seeing riders go this route or sticking to their FOX 36?
flag militantmandy
Posted: Jan 27, 2021 at 7:05 Quote
ChunkRider wrote:
The weight penalty going from FOX 36 to FOX 38 is substantial ~250g, those wanting the added benefits of 38mm stanchion might be fearful of the weight if they pedal their bike around a lot. Going from FOX 36 to a Zeb however - only has a ~60g penalty however, for a 38mm fork with pretty equal performance to the FOX 38.

Seems obvious, but is this a better path for FOX 36 users who want a stiffer fork that they can take to the park on their trail/enduro rigs. Are we seeing riders go this route or sticking to their FOX 36?

Just my thoughts:

- is 250g that much?
- does it matter on the kind of bike you'd put a 38mm fork on?
- there is absolutely no reason you couldn't run a 36 or lyirk at the bike park
- isn't the lyrik supposed to be stiffer than a 36 anyway?
flag ChunkRider
Posted: Jan 27, 2021 at 8:26 Quote
Just my thoughts:

- is 250g that much?
- does it matter on the kind of bike you'd put a 38mm fork on?
- there is absolutely no reason you couldn't run a 36 or lyirk at the bike park
- isn't the lyrik supposed to be stiffer than a 36 anyway?[/Quote]

250g is a fair amount of weight for someone who pedals uphill say on a SB150 or Ripmo. I guess your valid questions relate to whether the rider needs a 38mm at all. But I'm saying if the rider knows he wants a 38mm fork but doesn't want the weight penalty then Zeb makes a lot more sense. Even for die hard fox fans. At 2.5kg the FOX 38 is getting up there even for someone who doesn't care much about weight. And in the era of steep seat tube angles and enduro bikes that can climb the zeb seems like its more suited to this approach.
flag militantmandy
Posted: Jan 27, 2021 at 11:16 Quote
ChunkRider wrote:
Just my thoughts:

- is 250g that much?
- does it matter on the kind of bike you'd put a 38mm fork on?
- there is absolutely no reason you couldn't run a 36 or lyirk at the bike park
- isn't the lyrik supposed to be stiffer than a 36 anyway?

250g is a fair amount of weight for someone who pedals uphill say on a SB150 or Ripmo. I guess your valid questions relate to whether the rider needs a 38mm at all. But I'm saying if the rider knows he wants a 38mm fork but doesn't want the weight penalty then Zeb makes a lot more sense. Even for die hard fox fans. At 2.5kg the FOX 38 is getting up there even for someone who doesn't care much about weight. And in the era of steep seat tube angles and enduro bikes that can climb the zeb seems like its more suited to this approach.[/Quote]

Totally makes sense. Personally, when I changed to DH tyres in my Nomad, it only took a week before I no longer noticed the difference in pedalling. So I guess that's why 250g doesn't seem like a major deal to me. FHIW I would buy a Zeb, but mostly because the fox is just so much more expensive and a bit more complicated.
flag militantmandy
Posted: Jan 27, 2021 at 11:21 Quote
ChunkRider wrote:
Just my thoughts:

- is 250g that much?
- does it matter on the kind of bike you'd put a 38mm fork on?
- there is absolutely no reason you couldn't run a 36 or lyirk at the bike park
- isn't the lyrik supposed to be stiffer than a 36 anyway?

250g is a fair amount of weight for someone who pedals uphill say on a SB150 or Ripmo. I guess your valid questions relate to whether the rider needs a 38mm at all. But I'm saying if the rider knows he wants a 38mm fork but doesn't want the weight penalty then Zeb makes a lot more sense. Even for die hard fox fans. At 2.5kg the FOX 38 is getting up there even for someone who doesn't care much about weight. And in the era of steep seat tube angles and enduro bikes that can climb the zeb seems like its more suited to this approach.[/Quote]

What you said otally makes sense. Personally, when I changed to DH tyres in my Nomad, it only took a week before I no longer noticed the difference in pedalling. So I guess that's why 250g doesn't seem like a major deal to me. FWIW I would buy a Zeb, but mostly because the fox is just so much more expensive and a bit more complicated.
flag islandforlife
FL
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 8:45 Quote
I went from a 2021 Fox36 to a 2021 Fox38. I noticed the weight for about the first 10 minutes of my first ride... then it disappeared.

Then... the substantial and obvious performance benefits made it a no-brainer... I won't be going back. And the performance benefits aren't just in the high speed gnar but I notice it everywhere... slow speed tech climbing and descending where the fork is so much more composed and tracks over difficult lines as slow speeds so much easier. I never realized just much my previous forks were flexing and deflecting... but it's been made pretty obvious riding the 38.

And after reading multiple reviews, I'd choose the 38 (did my research beforehand) again over a Zeb. To me, the Zeb seems rushed.. (rumour mill says, they didn't know about the Fox38 until well into it's development)... the Zeb is just a bigger Lyrik... while the Fox38 is more highly developed and different fork with different construction to the 36.

The 38 uses an internal sleeve to reduce the size of the airshaft to the same size as a Fox34 to reduce stiction... and because the diameter at the top of the air chamber mushrooms out to the full diameter of the stanchion, this increases the volume of the air available within the spring, relative to the piston area. This change in diameter has the same effect as making the air spring longer. This boost in positive air volume, in turn, allows for a greater negative volume without the spring becoming excessively progressive. The combination of larger positive and negative chambers means you have a more linear, coil-like spring curve, so it’s softer at the start of the stroke, but firmer in the middle of the travel, without being too progressive at the end. The narrower piston diameter, combined with the full-width upper part of the air chamber, makes this possible by allowing lower compression ratios to be packaged into a single-crown fork. As a result of the narrower piston and larger negative volume, you use more pressure in the 38 than the Zeb – which allows easy access all the travel on the biggest impacts while still having plenty of support in the middle part of the stroke.

Stiffness... the Zeb is only 2% stiffer fore and aft (vs the Lyrik) while the 38 is 17% (vs the 36)... that's a huge difference and again, points to a more well thought-out and developed fork, they ovalized the steerer to add material and stiffness while the Zeb just uses the same steerer as the Lyrik. The other numbers are pretty big differences as well: Laterally 31% vs 7%, Torsionally: 38% vs 21%. if you're going to go through the cost and trouble of getting a 38mm fork, might as well get the one that actually makes a difference.

Fox38 uses a floating axle, smart move in another effort to reduce stiction.

And lastly... bleeders... this might not be a big point for some, but for me, every recent fork I've ever had that didn't have bleeders (Yari, Pike, 2020 Fox36) I've had issues at some point with trapped air and stuck-down lowers. While every fork that I've had that had bleeders (MRP Ribbon, 2021 Fox36 and now 38), I haven't had that issue with. Nice to have for sure.

So long story short... I'll take the small weight penalty (which disappears within 10 minutes of your first ride), for the more highly developed and better performing fork. It will be interesting to see what Rockshox does with the Zeb next year now that they've had a year or so to catch up.
flag jeremy3220
O+ FL
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 9:29 Quote
If you're absolutely going to a 38mm fork then the only weight question that matters is if the Fox 38 is worth the 60g of extra weight over the Zeb. It doesn't matter how much the 38 weighs vs the 36. The weight difference between the 36 and 38 is substantial so you should get the Zeb to save an insubstantial amount of weight? That's some messed up logic.
flag gmoss
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 10:56 Quote
islandforlife wrote:
I went from a 2021 Fox36 to a 2021 Fox38. I noticed the weight for about the first 10 minutes of my first ride... then it disappeared.

Then... the substantial and obvious performance benefits made it a no-brainer... I won't be going back. And the performance benefits aren't just in the high speed gnar but I notice it everywhere... slow speed tech climbing and descending where the fork is so much more composed and tracks over difficult lines as slow speeds so much easier. I never realized just much my previous forks were flexing and deflecting... but it's been made pretty obvious riding the 38.

And after reading multiple reviews, I'd choose the 38 (did my research beforehand) again over a Zeb. To me, the Zeb seems rushed.. (rumour mill says, they didn't know about the Fox38 until well into it's development)... the Zeb is just a bigger Lyrik... while the Fox38 is more highly developed and different fork with different construction to the 36.

The 38 uses an internal sleeve to reduce the size of the airshaft to the same size as a Fox34 to reduce stiction... and because the diameter at the top of the air chamber mushrooms out to the full diameter of the stanchion, this increases the volume of the air available within the spring, relative to the piston area. This change in diameter has the same effect as making the air spring longer. This boost in positive air volume, in turn, allows for a greater negative volume without the spring becoming excessively progressive. The combination of larger positive and negative chambers means you have a more linear, coil-like spring curve, so it’s softer at the start of the stroke, but firmer in the middle of the travel, without being too progressive at the end. The narrower piston diameter, combined with the full-width upper part of the air chamber, makes this possible by allowing lower compression ratios to be packaged into a single-crown fork. As a result of the narrower piston and larger negative volume, you use more pressure in the 38 than the Zeb – which allows easy access all the travel on the biggest impacts while still having plenty of support in the middle part of the stroke.

Stiffness... the Zeb is only 2% stiffer fore and aft (vs the Lyrik) while the 38 is 17% (vs the 36)... that's a huge difference and again, points to a more well thought-out and developed fork, they ovalized the steerer to add material and stiffness while the Zeb just uses the same steerer as the Lyrik. The other numbers are pretty big differences as well: Laterally 31% vs 7%, Torsionally: 38% vs 21%. if you're going to go through the cost and trouble of getting a 38mm fork, might as well get the one that actually makes a difference.

Fox38 uses a floating axle, smart move in another effort to reduce stiction.

And lastly... bleeders... this might not be a big point for some, but for me, every recent fork I've ever had that didn't have bleeders (Yari, Pike, 2020 Fox36) I've had issues at some point with trapped air and stuck-down lowers. While every fork that I've had that had bleeders (MRP Ribbon, 2021 Fox36 and now 38), I haven't had that issue with. Nice to have for sure.

So long story short... I'll take the small weight penalty (which disappears within 10 minutes of your first ride), for the more highly developed and better performing fork. It will be interesting to see what Rockshox does with the Zeb next year now that they've had a year or so to catch up.

Dang, now you got me wanting a new 38....and I recently bought and am really pleased with my 21 Factory 36. Haha
flag islandforlife
FL
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 11:58 Quote
gmoss wrote:

Dang, now you got me wanting a new 38....and I recently bought and am really pleased with my 21 Factory 36. Haha

haha, I am not responsible for any drained bank accounts!! But for what it's worth, I was able to sell my 4 month old 2021 Fox36 Factory for a pretty good price... there's a shortage of everything right now and lots of demand. Plus lots of people who can't get a bike are instead just upgrading their current ride. Then I bought the Fox38 Performance Elite (same fork as Factory, just no Kashima). Search on Pinkbike buy/sell brings up a few for good prices.

On the flipside... that 2021 Fox36 was the best fork I'd ridden... (until I rode the 38...) :-)
flag gmoss
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 13:45 Quote
islandforlife wrote:
gmoss wrote:

Dang, now you got me wanting a new 38....and I recently bought and am really pleased with my 21 Factory 36. Haha

haha, I am not responsible for any drained bank accounts!! But for what it's worth, I was able to sell my 4 month old 2021 Fox36 Factory for a pretty good price... there's a shortage of everything right now and lots of demand. Plus lots of people who can't get a bike are instead just upgrading their current ride. Then I bought the Fox38 Performance Elite (same fork as Factory, just no Kashima). Search on Pinkbike buy/sell brings up a few for good prices.

On the flipside... that 2021 Fox36 was the best fork I'd ridden... (until I rode the 38...) :-)

may have to do some research on the 38. I like the factory orange for my bike, so that is what I would be looking at...hmm. Only had my 36 about a month. lol
flag meSSican
O+
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 14:38 Quote
We reviewed a Zeb Ultimate (similar to 38) vs Manitou Mezzer and the 250g less of the Mezzer was noticeable on the front end. It wasn't a deal breaker but the Mezzer's lighter weight made the front end of a big bike more maneuverable and "light". The Zeb was more stout in the chunk at speed but I didn't mind the slightest extra bit of compliance of the Mezzer's 37mm stanchions.

38 is supposed to be pretty awesome but so is the 36.
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 15:25 Quote
gmoss wrote:
islandforlife wrote:
I went from a 2021 Fox36 to a 2021 Fox38. I noticed the weight for about the first 10 minutes of my first ride... then it disappeared.

Then... the substantial and obvious performance benefits made it a no-brainer... I won't be going back. And the performance benefits aren't just in the high speed gnar but I notice it everywhere... slow speed tech climbing and descending where the fork is so much more composed and tracks over difficult lines as slow speeds so much easier. I never realized just much my previous forks were flexing and deflecting... but it's been made pretty obvious riding the 38.

And after reading multiple reviews, I'd choose the 38 (did my research beforehand) again over a Zeb. To me, the Zeb seems rushed.. (rumour mill says, they didn't know about the Fox38 until well into it's development)... the Zeb is just a bigger Lyrik... while the Fox38 is more highly developed and different fork with different construction to the 36.

The 38 uses an internal sleeve to reduce the size of the airshaft to the same size as a Fox34 to reduce stiction... and because the diameter at the top of the air chamber mushrooms out to the full diameter of the stanchion, this increases the volume of the air available within the spring, relative to the piston area. This change in diameter has the same effect as making the air spring longer. This boost in positive air volume, in turn, allows for a greater negative volume without the spring becoming excessively progressive. The combination of larger positive and negative chambers means you have a more linear, coil-like spring curve, so it’s softer at the start of the stroke, but firmer in the middle of the travel, without being too progressive at the end. The narrower piston diameter, combined with the full-width upper part of the air chamber, makes this possible by allowing lower compression ratios to be packaged into a single-crown fork. As a result of the narrower piston and larger negative volume, you use more pressure in the 38 than the Zeb – which allows easy access all the travel on the biggest impacts while still having plenty of support in the middle part of the stroke.

Stiffness... the Zeb is only 2% stiffer fore and aft (vs the Lyrik) while the 38 is 17% (vs the 36)... that's a huge difference and again, points to a more well thought-out and developed fork, they ovalized the steerer to add material and stiffness while the Zeb just uses the same steerer as the Lyrik. The other numbers are pretty big differences as well: Laterally 31% vs 7%, Torsionally: 38% vs 21%. if you're going to go through the cost and trouble of getting a 38mm fork, might as well get the one that actually makes a difference.

Fox38 uses a floating axle, smart move in another effort to reduce stiction.

And lastly... bleeders... this might not be a big point for some, but for me, every recent fork I've ever had that didn't have bleeders (Yari, Pike, 2020 Fox36) I've had issues at some point with trapped air and stuck-down lowers. While every fork that I've had that had bleeders (MRP Ribbon, 2021 Fox36 and now 38), I haven't had that issue with. Nice to have for sure.

So long story short... I'll take the small weight penalty (which disappears within 10 minutes of your first ride), for the more highly developed and better performing fork. It will be interesting to see what Rockshox does with the Zeb next year now that they've had a year or so to catch up.

Dang, now you got me wanting a new 38....and I recently bought and am really pleased with my 21 Factory 36. Haha

Lol you sound like a Fox sales rep...these % what you quoted is the same tactic Fox tried to use to convince the media and uneducated the Fox is the better fork... Now let's be honest the reason the 38 has larger percentage increases over the 36 than the ZEB does over the Lyrik is because the 36 was a noodle compared to the Lyrik..so even though the Fox is stiffer by a larger percentage over it's predecessor than the ZEB, it is not actually stiffer than the ZEB, the ZEB is stiffer than the 38, so that argument goes out the window along with the associated oval steerer tube...funny the 38 has the oval steerer tube and yet is less stiff a fork than the ZEB and has had way way more people complaining about creaky steerers from release. So already we have 4 points to the ZEB before we even get into plushness... These 4 points are less weight, price, stiffer and less creaky steerers..
flag jeremy3220
O+ FL
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 15:44 Quote
Danzzz88 wrote:
the ZEB is stiffer than the 38,

Source?
flag Danzzz88
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 16:04 Quote
Torsionally:
Fox 36 + 29% = Lyrik
Lyrik + 1% = Mezzer
Mezzer + 8% = Fox 38
Fox 38 + 12% = Zeb

Creaky steerer - https://www.mtbr.com/threads/creaking-fox-38-csu-the-curse-remains.1142473/

Weights - https://m.pinkbike.com/news/fox-38-vs-rockshox-zeb-2021-review.html
flag islandforlife
FL
Posted: Jan 28, 2021 at 17:09 Quote
jeremy3220 wrote:
Danzzz88 wrote:
the ZEB is stiffer than the 38,

Source?

He doesn't have any... probably never ridden either of them.
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