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KJP1230 PatrolMTB's article
Dec 3, 2021 at 14:02
15 hours
Patrol Launches 130mm E-Five eMTB
@PatrolMTB: Here. I'll fix it for you. " "The 2021 E-Six uses an all-alloy frame with 150mm of travel on the rear and 160mm at the opposite end. Patrol developed the E-Six as a 29er EMTB and ships the E-Six with completed Shimano drivetrains, Fox suspension and a mix of own-brand kit." - Patrol Bikes" - PINKBIKE (and now quoted for a 3rd time on the Patrol website)
KJP1230 PatrolMTB's article
Dec 3, 2021 at 13:54
15 hours
Patrol Launches 130mm E-Five eMTB
@PatrolMTB: You're clearly not comprehending what I said. The quote in my original post, the one that you guys advertise on your website, it is NOT a "story". Pinkbike didn't write it up, Patrol Bikes did. I googled the quote, and found the Pinkbike post - it was written by Patrol Bikes. In other words: it was a press release. Here's the link incase you forgot: https://www.pinkbike.com/u/PatrolMTB/blog/2021-patrol-e-six-unveiled-with-shimano-ep8.html So, like I said. You guys wrote the original press release for the E-Six. Sent it to Pinkbike. Pinkbike posted your press release, then you guys quoted Pinkbike (quoting YOU) as a marketing blurb that merely describes your product matter-of-factly, on your website. Just cut out the middle man and have your PR team send an email to your marketing folks. ;) Are you guys new here?
KJP1230 PatrolMTB's article
Dec 3, 2021 at 8:47
20 hours
Patrol Launches 130mm E-Five eMTB
@PatrolMTB: I'm sticking with my points above. What you call a "story", I call a Patrol-generated press release that you guys sent to Pinkbike. You're quoting a website, that's quoting your PR team. Cool? Also, why a 125mm dropper? Do people riding shorter travel bikes enjoy the thrill of having a dropper post that could also force them over the handlebars when descending?
KJP1230 PatrolMTB's article
Dec 2, 2021 at 19:08
1 day
Patrol Launches 130mm E-Five eMTB
My goodness, these bikes are uninspiring. I'm 99% sure that Patrol just looks in a chinese bike catalogue, orders frames, and goes from there. 130mm E-bike? 125mm dropper? Why? Who are the people ordering these bikes? Pretty funny that the marketing blurb on the Patrol website for the E-Six is a quote from Pinkbike that literally just describes the bike. "“THE 2021 E-SIX USES AN ALL-ALLOY FRAME WITH 150MM OF TRAVEL ON THE REAR AND 160MM AT THE OPPOSITE END. PATROL DEVELOPED THE E-SIX AS A 29ER EMTB AND SHIPS THE E-SIX WITH COMPLETE SHIMANO DRIVETRAINS, FOX SUSPENSION AND A MIX OF OWN-BRAND KIT.” – PINKBIKE :) Pretty sure the Patrol website is made by a bot.
KJP1230 PatrolMTB's article
Dec 2, 2021 at 19:00
1 day
Patrol Launches 130mm E-Five eMTB
Agreed. Seems odd to bother with only 130mm of travel if you're gonna add a motor anyway. I have to believe that a similarly designed 150-160mm bike will be nearly identical on the ascents, and even fairly low key terrain is fun on a 150mm bike. Then again, this is brought to you by the company makes an E-hardtail. Why anyone on earth would want an e-hardtail, I dunno? For the rider that doesn't know if he'll like mountain biking, and also wants it to be really easy? "From the company that brought you the e-hardtail and the e-short travel: the e-single speed. None of the fun. None of the effort!"
KJP1230 mattbeer's article
Dec 2, 2021 at 8:51
2 days
First Look: Orange Stage 6 Evo
@reed81: At some point, I think David Guerra needs to admit that he is interested in an all-out defense of Orange's suspension design. As you and I have illustrated in conversation regarding competing single-pivot and other suspension designs, the increasing complexity of the rear suspension allows for additional engineering of various aspects of the suspension kinematics and attributes. None of this means that Orange bikes are "bad" per se, but Orange IS constrained by their chosen design as compared to all other available options. That's just a flat out fact. At this point, there is really nothing left to say. He ended is last message by talking about "flex" again, as if modern bike designers haven't accounted for flex as part of their suspension engineering process. :)
KJP1230 mattbeer's article
Dec 1, 2021 at 17:02
2 days
First Look: Orange Stage 6 Evo
@DavidGuerra: One last point: Pivot location is not fixed in man bike designs: Norco's new Range (VPP high pivot), DW-Link, Revel, Yeti, Alchemy....they all have suspension with pivot locations that move during, and as part of, suspension travel. Again: this allows for "somewhat independent" engineering of different aspects of the suspension.
KJP1230 mattbeer's article
Dec 1, 2021 at 16:56
2 days
First Look: Orange Stage 6 Evo
@DavidGuerra: You're missing the point. More complex suspension designs allow engineers to fine tune those various aspects of suspension performance somewhat independently. The "somewhat independently" is the important piece. Let's use your own example: Pivot location. As you've said, axle path, pedal feedback, anti-squat, leverage ratio are going to be highly dependent on pivot location. With this bike design, you get 1 pivot location and zero additional degrees of freedom between the pivot, bottom bracket, and rear axle. So now you have to pick a location, and that location is going to be a tradeoff between axle path, pedal feedback, anti-squat, and levaerage rate. With other bike designs, you have MORE ability to independently optimize each. Case in point (again): the 2020 Specialized Enduro with its very complicated "6-bar" suspension. At its core, it is a horst link bike. Yet the axle position, independent chainstay and seat stay, as well as the complex linkage and rocker link allows you to engineer a bike that has a rearward axle path for the first 30% of suspension travel (lengthening the effective chainstay, and moving the axle "back and out of the way") that then switches to a forward axle path (shortening the effective chainstay and reducing pedal kickback) for the final 70% of suspension travel. Further, by fine tuning the 3-arms which link the shock to the rocker link, it delivers a suspension curve that switches between linear and progressive at different parts of the stroke. Brake jack is reduced by decoupling (somewhat) the axle position and brake mount from the movement of the chainstay and rocker link, which allows the bike to remain more reactive under braking. Do you see what I mean? The Orange cannot offer this level of sophistication and fine tuning. You effectively get to make 1 choice with the Orange: Where is the pivot, and where is the axle? Everything else is a function of where you mounted the shock to the lever arm. That's it.
KJP1230 mattbeer's article
Dec 1, 2021 at 14:19
3 days
First Look: Orange Stage 6 Evo
@DavidGuerra: Then we need to respectfully disagree. I feel strongly that a bike with (somewhat) independently tunable axle path, pedal kickback, variable leverage ratio (linear vs. progressive during different parts of the suspension curve), brake jack, anti-squat, anti-rise, dynamic chainstay length, etc. is going to provide a basis on which objectively "superior" suspension performance is delivered for any given application. No bike will ever be a 10/10 in each category, but design and innovation allows us to inch closer and closer. Orange is not going to excel across several of these domains. Specifically: axle path, pedal kickback, variable/dynamic leverage ratio, brake jack and dynamic chainstay length. Because of Orange's ultra-simple suspension design, these particular aspects are either entirely or partially unavailable to engineer without major tradeoff.
KJP1230 mattbeer's article
Dec 1, 2021 at 12:40
3 days
First Look: Orange Stage 6 Evo
@DavidGuerra: You're seriously going to argue that VPP, DW Link, DELTA, various high pivot designs, 4-bar horst, 6-link horst, variable pivot point (see Yeti, Alchemy) hell...even a linkage backed single pivot offer nothing? All of these designs offer decidedly more "degrees of freedom" and opportunity to engineer very specific attributes related to anti-squat, brake jack, wheel path, variable leverage ratios, etc. And winning bikes seem to select this complexity. They just do. Are they more complex than a simple lever single pivot? Yup. Big time. But that complexity does deliver ever-improving performance, beyond what geometry updates can deliver. Case in point: Look at the current 2020 Specialized Enduro. At it's core, its a 4-bar horst, but the actual suspension kinematics and wheel path are fine tuned by a complex shock linkage that actually drives the rocker link. As a result, its been a "benchmark" bike for 2+ years for at least 4 major mountain bike periodicals. Its a super slack, 170mm bike that is better downhill than many DH bikes from 5-7 years ago, and better climbing dynamics than many 140-150mm trail bikes from 5 years ago. Is it complex? Yep. But is it better, year over year than even Enduro's of years past? Absolutely - big time. Same with some of these fancy, new, high-pivots. Man, I just rode my buddies Fordbidden Dreadnaught a few weeks ago. The thing is a MONSTER. The wheel stays glued to the ground on super gnarly trails, unlike anything I've ever felt. This Orange will never be able to offer that ride dynamic. Not possible. So yes, there is a great deal to be gained from increasing complexity and/or innovation. As for flex, get your head out of your a$$. Firstly, a certain amount of flex or compliance can be a good thing. Ever ridden super rigid carbon hoops? 2nd, unless you are a world-caliber racer, I don't wanna hear it. I see a lot of local professional racers who seem to shred their "flexy" four-bar and other design types.
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