Interbike 2008 Banshee Legend DH Bike Prototype

 So nice!

 Nothing on this frame will be cast, casting is not very strong. I will either have everything CNC'd as shown, or forged. It all just depends on numbers, as opening forging tools is very very expensive. the welding you see in the shock basement is all offset curve welded to minimise stress concentrations and sheer lines. I've spent over 3 years dreaming up and developing this bike, and have been riding a second stae prototype for a couple of months now. it rides amazignly, but I realised that some things still needed work, so expect the pre production batch to be lighter, sleaker and preform better. and then these frames will be refined even further before full release!

  elbry (13 hours ago) (Below Threshold) show comment
looks like the canfield formula, no shock to find its also made in the same factory..hyped

nothing like the Canfield....and the Legend was on the drawing board 4 years ago way before Canfield...the Legend was the result of Banshee's design engineer Masters Degree in Engineering so has had some serious work put into it, and a huge amount of manufacturing time at Pacific in Taiwan

the shock canoe cnc work look a little rough because there is no point in adding extra cost to prototype frames when the point of a prototype is to test the geometry and suspension rather than the visual prowess of the frame

10.5lb for frame plus a 9.5" I2I shock with a STEEL spring is VERY competitive for a well built frame that will last more than a season

put a Titanium spring on there and you are looking at sub 10lb, comparing a single-pivot (Orange 224) to a virtual pivot bike is pointless as the virtual pivot bikes do not suffer the same degree of brake stiffening or pedal feedback that the Orange does

bushings are the superior choice WHEN the pivots are designed right - Turner has been using bushings on alot of their frames for years with good result - a customer with a Turner 5-spot came into our shop today and I was talking to him about his frame, he said several years old and still on same bushings, just pump some grease through the lube ports from time to time

Banshee has proven that bushings work on their Rune, Pyre and Rampant frames, even in harsh environments like Whistler and Vancouver's North Shore, the frames all have grease ports and good sealing to allow a 5 minute maintenance overhaul whenever needed

Devinci did not get their bushing / axle interface right on the Wilson and have gone back to bearings for 2009

 Thats quite a leap forward from the scream....respectable weight too. Props.

 The Legend is dope. What surprises me is the amount of dudes on here who do not understand the Difference between FSR and dual-link style bikes. Every newcomer to mountainbiking should get a handbook on basic linkage/wheelpath engineering, although I realize this is a little over most people's heads. Sweet ride!

 I think banshee might just get themselve ahead of the game.

 from banshee blog and somthing which is true (check your car ) "I realise that there are a lot of die hard bearing fans out there... but what you have to realise is that bearings are designed to take complete 360degree rotations like you get in bottom brackets, and not angular rotations (less than 90degrees) like you get in suspension pivots. This means that the whole load in bearings is constantly wearing out just 2 or 3 of the ball bearings in a conventional bearing, whereas the polymer bushings wear evenly due to the design.
You can find more information on the bearings here.. www.igus.com/show_iglide.asp and you can also order replacement bushings directly from them quickly and at a low price.


Axles:


The axles for the main pivots have been specifically designed for performance, simplicity, and ease of maintenance. This has been achieved by:

Direct grease injection ports with set screw grease zerk

Grease injection can be done in under 30 seconds, just unscrew the set screw, inject grease, screw in set screw. (obviously the area MUST be clean when you do this to stop grit getting in to the pivots)

3 parts to the axles... axle, bolt and zerk ... that's it, why over complicate things?

Double helical groves on the axle surface to allow the grease to push under the bushings.

Hard anodised finish to axle surface improves the life of both axles and pivots. (not seen in prototype above)
Basically the you inject the grease in through the end of the axle and it feeds through into the gap in the pivot between bushings due to the machined grease path. (you can see the grease paths in the following cross section picture).
Yes the bushings are self lubricating, so if they remain clean then there is no need to even grease the pivots, however if you suspect there is some grit in there then injecting grease can force out the grit without harming the bushings.

After spending months testing and abusing the prototypes that all had the new pivot assemblies we are very confident that they will help improve your riding experience."

check here bansheebikes.blogspot.com/2007/08/vf4b-pivots.html

 Looks like a killer bike, but why with the god damn bushings. Didn't they learn anything from all the Devincis that needed constant bushing service (till they switched to needle bearings). I'd gladly take the extra weight if I didn't have to sit down and overhaul it every 5-6 rides.

 haha, very educted posts!! I'm assuming that you have done all the dynamic linkage equations to back up your claims there. no? Maybe you should have. Do you know the axle ath curves for any of the bikes you are comparing, or understand what causes brake squat? You haven't even ridden the bike, so you can't possibly comment on how it feels.

Just another armchair critic. A lot of he points you mentioned in the 3 posts above are completely flawed and untrue. Maybe you work for specialized?

 No simple logic is not enough, that is the mistake that many people make, yes you can get a rough idea of whats going on in terms of instantaneous centre and centre of curvature, and to an extent wheelpath and leverage ratio, and hence chainstratch and pedal kickback, but it is not til you fully anaylse the linkage that you can calculate what is going on with any accuracy. Moving a pivot by just 1mm can make a massive difference! would you rather I just botched a bike together based on what I think looks right, or actually spent time and effort to get it right.

No braking and pedaling do not always affect suspenion when using a short link 4 bar linkage... thats the point. You can tune the linkage to cancel them out, or make the most of them. It is tunable, thats the point.

Yes a little Squat is better than jack, thats obvious. you don't want the back of your bike jumping up while the front dives under braking do you. Thats a no brainer. Hardly any bikes out there experience brake jack. The legend experiences about 25% the brake squat that an equivalent single pivot bike will with same amount of travel. This was purposfully designed into the system to balance the bike under braking slightly, but it has also been tuned to be more active in certain regions of the travel to give optimal preformance.

You do realise that the horst link is just a variation of the same style linkage the legend uses. They are both 4 bar linkages with the axle mounted on the 2nd link... just thought I would bring that to your attention. So since your arguing that the horst link is both the 'best', and 'worst' design, your argument isn't making much sense to me.

I've ridden both a demo 8 and the legend down several trails like A-line and whistler DH, and the legend handles the braking bumps a lot better due to the rearward axle path absorbing the hits in such a way that the wheels rolls through them better. (just a point of note about one of your previous posts, the axle path of your front wheel is not vertical!)

Obviously the suspension setups on the bikes may have been different etc, but the Legend was definately more controlled and faster both through the braking bumps and corners. But yes I am biased, all I know is that the timer I was using doesn't lie, and the time difference was significant!

 Its gourgouse, the guys at Banshee love the C.N.C. Damn it looks good. But think how well it will hold onto mud. I had a chap and was hart to clean up.

 gottah agree with DEMAN bottom tube guaranz to be a mud scooper. More so if riding in our HAWAIIAN MUDD..."Sticky stuff". I gottah admit though, Probably one of the toughest builds I have seen yet! Props to Banchee for giving it their all!

 That is more than a bike... it is a work of art.

 few word about it before says stuff you don't know go to the blag and read all the article about this frame then you will be able to put a proper comment.

About the Canoe (this huge CNC part) this part have been designed with the idea of being forged but the tools for forging are super expensive. I ve been able to ride a bit on one of it this summer in whistler and it really pedals great despite a super smooth suspension. it feel like you can rail flat turn super low .

and 10,5 pound with a shock it's super light and remember it's still a prototype

 also must point out that Jay got the geometry a little confused, it started at 65 degree head angle, and te next 50 have been slackened to 64 degrees

 I think I just wet my pants. I am on the sacred list of 50 and will enjoy pushing my limits on this bike. I also own a Banshee Rune. The people that comment negatively about bushings are referring to the previous bikes that have issues with bushings. My Rune has the same type of bushings as the Legend. I have ridden my Rune HARD in ALL conditions for 10 months and all I have done is lube them with a grease gun once. I have no lateral play and ZERO issues. The bushing on the Banshee bike work perfectly. I have no doubt the Legend will be a fabulous bike.

 Looks flippin awesome Keith, I wish I raced DH so I could get one of those. Very nice work! I'm happy to hear from a few riders that the bushings are working out really well. No bearing play at all and pretty much zero maintenance after 8+ months of hammering on them.

 any downhillers actually use the shifter to change gears while doing DH and I mean DH, not freeriding? I found that the shifters are not much of the use. So the next quetion would be......single speed rear hub is more sensible then, right?

 what was wrong with the scythe not that that matters but sick bike

 i want one

 That's some damn sick cnc-machining! Very sick bike!

 Well I bought a banshee scythe this summer and im completely in love with it it rails the downhill like no tomorrow and has the same feel the whole way down (it feels the same on the little chunder as it does on the big hits.) But now i cant wait to get the legend and convert my scythe into a freeride machine

 jakeami, im pretty sure that anyone at the company can send you an email about how the design works. Dont waste your time bashing a company with a post. I think you might need ot grow up, no matter how old you are. It is rude, and totally uncalled for.

 Im feeling that theres a lot of haters out there determined to not like banshee. Just because they want to go another direction than other brands doesnt make it bad. I can see there's allot of trend followers. Ohh specialized is best and nothing else is good enough Pahh. How many specialized are you seeing in the wc? few. Ok sam hill. But if im not wrong there's already some legends out there? Vpp bikes is used by aaalot of wc riders. Cuz it works. Ive ridden demos. And they dont work as good as some say. Heavy and not that active. Give the legend a chance on the market before you give it negative props.

 marcelo gutierrez (colombia) bike

 That looks like it is gonna be a beast. I'm liking Banshees more and more these days. I'm going to have to ride this rig for sure. Hopefully the bank isn't open on that day.....

 thats one nice bike, i look forward to getting my hands on one when they come down in price, or when i can get one used in the next couple years

 uh-oh, now I'm being double teamed by the mad scientists at banshee... And I'm not sure you guys understand my questions because you guys are just talking circles in broken english instead of explaining how you managed to bend the laws of physics.
I still don't understand how you claim a suspension system that's effected by pedalling and braking is efficient, or that it will improve my ride in any way, for starters. This question requires absolutely no calculations to answer, it's way too simple for that. That's why hans and frans are dodged it.
You guys are claiming that your design has been tweaked to perfection via pro riders and high tech calculations, but the problem is, no amount of math or pro feedback will fix a vpp rear ends shortcomings! Impossible! This is a fact!

Is everyone supposed to believe that all other vpp suspension engineers have just missed those few crux calculations that Banshee was able to nail in order to dial in vpp suspension for once? I'm pretty sure other companies have you guys (just a bit) in the R&D department. So far, you've came across like you don't know enough to know what you need to learn..

Come on man, you need to get real and quit blowing smoke, just trying to tell people what they want to hear. It really SHOULD bother you to spread such BS to the masses. or are you the only engineer that doesn't believe in being bound by modern physics? this has totally changed my perception of banshee.
the absolute truth is: you guys chose a complicated suspension system and are making false claims about suspension physics, which is why i'm pissed about it. If you can't be straight up about it than don't open your mouth assuming nobody knows the one calculation that can prove you wrong..

I can't even believe you are an engineer after hearing your theories behind suspension. I followed the link under the pic at the top of this page, the one for your suspension system, I was seriously in disbelief. what a raft of $hit! Many of the claims you guys make about other systems, as well as your own, either aren't correct or are biased and aren't completely explanatory, more like selectively factual, leaving out details that might disprove the franken-bike you've created. and it's really jumbled. Not the kind of suspension info page you'd expect from a company claiming to out-engineer everyone else including Issac Newton.

You comment that "hardly any designs suffer from brake jack"??? are you f-ing. serious man?? Then what's with all the floating brake hooplah?? I believe a company called Brake Therapy even makes a business out of brake jack!

And i can't even believe you are trying to compare your vpp to a horst link system in public. Mathematically, you may be able to make the two rear-ends seem similar, but they are obviously at opposit ends of the suspension design spectrum. they are sooo fundamentally different. It's really just all about whether it's a curved(vpp) or a straight wheelpath(fsr), and I know you guys know this..I'm sure this simple point has become painfully obvious in the last four years while trying to calculate a way around it.

What I am saying is: I don't need math to know that any vpp rear-end and it's obviously complicated wheelpath will never out perform a system utilizing a straight axle path. And no vpp or dual link style rear-end is able to travel in a straight line, which is key to avoiding negative traits such as brake squat and pedal kick. ANYONE CONSIDERING THIS BIKE: DON'T LISTEN TO THE HYPE, MAKE AN EDUCATED DECISION.

 I like the CNC work on this thing, adds some class

 damn, and i just got the scythe...this makes me jealous

 saw mick hanah riding one in angelfire for the red bull burner. super siiick bike!

 Their site says a 64Deg HA and the guy in the vid says 66!?!? Which is it? I'm hoping the 64. This could be my next DH Race Frame.

 it's cnc'd now because its a proto. it'll probably be forged for production
it shares the only good quality of a demo. the low center of gravity shock mount.
but the design is like any other vpp/dw/shocker/canfield style bike
they're all the same idea just some are tweaked a little differently
it's the only banshee i'd even consider standing next to without puking

 Oh yeah! In the first 50, can't wait for mine. F*ck yeah!

 looks like a V10 to me, except the top link swing up instead of in... probably giving this better performance under braking then a V10

 samnation shut it they still need to work out all the little kinks so when you go buy it they dont get 15 million complaint letters about it like com on!!!!

 The whole bike seems flawed, he pretty much said the bike has brake jack and that it uses bushing rather than bearings on the pivot points. Wow you shaved off a non-significant amount of weight and in the process made a less reliable frame for the mass public.

 drool drool , please please put this into production

 Awesome bike - sounds like good development program: bansheebikes.blogspot.com/search/label/Legend

 dual link rear ends ride crappy. would you want your front wheel to "squat" into a certain spot in the suspension in order to work properly? complicated wheelpaths are bs. Go with a well done single pivot or better a HORST LINK (yeah specialized) which use a vertical wheelpath (like your fork) in order to deal extremely well with brake and pedal forces that pull back and forth, not vertically. Single pivots get brake jack and pedal feeedback for the same reasons multi-link crap bikes do; the wheel can be pulled closer to or futher from the frame (via arcing wheelpath) when pedalling or braking. nothing but a vertical wheel path can remain fully active while pedalling or braking, simple physics.
OH, and you don't want "squat" because you are wasting power and losing traction to make it squat. I hate it when dual link designs try to claim pedalling efficiency through pedal induced lock out, nothing worse than a bike that pulls itself up or down when you pedal it, so tacky.

 i'm talking about dual link bikes with wheelpaths designed to use pedal forces to keep the bike firm, people think it's efficiency but it's just a loss of sensitivity and attaching the rear triangle the frame with a pair of links (as long as these)will make the rear end either flexier or heavier than a comparable horst link or single pivot rear end, which is probably the reason they're using bushings instead of bearings. In the video he says the "squat" is so the rear end lowers a bit with the brakes on, so you can really rail that corner. give me a break, such bs. They pulled this one out of their a$$ because the bike does weird sh!t when you hit the brakes. And claiming that it pedals better than a Horst link is a total lie. Any bobbing when pedalling a horst link is your body weight going up and down, any a fully active rear-end will react to weight on the pedals just as it will react to bumps on the trail, it's a good thing. You can't get any better than a fully active rear-end that isn't effected by braking or pedalling, it's just a fact. The banshee's rear-end uses pedal force (inefficiency)to lock the rear-end out of activity, which sacrifices traction and consistancy of travel (impact reaction varies with braking and pedalling forces (never good). Think about it, you don't need weird sh1t going on while you pedal and brake to make you better!!

 So why did they depart from their conventional designs (with this frame)that have worked fine so far? Maybe to sell more bikes? Everyone else is going to a vpp rear-end so you either have to beat 'em or join 'em. Most people are so clueless that they just listen to the hype and end up shelling out $ for complete turds because the bike looks cool. Too bad all of those banshee engineers didn't come up with a better idea that wasn't old and played out.

 dynamic linkage equations? c'mon now. who the hell wants to do math when simple deductive logic is enough? brake squat is caused by the brakes effecting the suspension, correct? And the brakes (and pedalling) will always effect any vpp suspension, so you guys figured squat was better than jack, correct? But they have to blow smoke about brake squat being a desireable trait (see below) while cornering. I don't think it even requires a strong grasp of physics 201 (or advanced mathmatics) to figure out that a VPP wheelpath is just over-complicated hype.

Unfortunately, many people stricken with vpp are innocent newbies unaware that their riding experience isn't very close to ideal. I've seen sooo many vpp bikes with horribly over-damped and over-sprung rear shocks in an effort to basically deaden the crappy linkage action. I don't work for specialized, I just can't stomach vpp for several factual reasons, so I'm basically just tryin' to keep it real.

And I know I don't need my rear brake doing anything but slowing me down, right? So why would I waste braking power to help compress my rear shock? Wouldn't rear shock compression while braking equally effect the rear wheel's ability to rebound from impacts while braking? Like, say, braking bumps? I love that saying: You can't have your cake and eat it too. And besides, you're supposed to do the majority of braking before the corner, aren't you?
Ain't that a b1tch? not one mathmatical equation needed to reasonably prove the inefficiency of vpp designs.. and if you call any of the above "flawed" than I want some of the sh1t you've been puffin' on.

 TANK check out those beefy welds

 Fokken lovely! Good job boys! Hopefully we get one too... :-))))

 OH MY GOD i think i just cried a little

 The machining is neat, but the production models will be cast, not so neat.

 i know whats on my christmas list lol

 Yeah Jay, sweet show and tell. can't wait

 sick bike the guy says uhhh way to fucket mush

 very very nice i realy want one

 I LIKE THAT BIKE, but what is the price of the frame with the shock ????

 well it guess its time to sell the house i can live in my car for a few months lol almost worth it

 in portugal are one frame of that,it's very beautifull and is a great machine

 10.5 lbs, pretty impressive inc shock

 surely if they got rid of all those messy and cheap looking machining lines on the canoe section they could save a bit of weight - looks way more pimp in red and white though!

 Best Banshee ever!

 Ah nice bike. Its awesome looking.

 Beauty - well done Keith/Jay! Looking forward to the production...

 I've never been a fan of Banshee... but I think I could be now! Holy smokes that frame is hot!

 Whooooppppp deeeee dooooooooo. Release it already instead of bragging about it.

 y is every1 goin for the lowest spot 2 put the suspension on DH bikes these days?

 i dont usually like banshees but damn the cnc work on the downtubes looks amazing

 anybody think it looks like a canfield formula 1 jedi?

 Este quadro é identico ao nosso Berg Viper Elite!!!!
Mas o mal é que diz Banshee, resultado já é uma Bomba....enfim palavras para que???

 haha id quit bmx if i had a good place to ride this thing

 i think i like banshee now

 hmm well said but really you dont know untill you try it

 FUNK YEAH !! that will cost a pretty penny

 Much better than the old banshees. Thats got a really nice finish on it.

 awe damn thats a F***ING sick ride...want it

 Looks sweet!

 Why is there a chain guide mount on the non drive side? am I missing something?

 Sweet !

 Nice Frame !

 My next battle cruiser!

 That is one hell of a frame

 I think i need new underpants.

 MSRP is $3500 CND on the frame...

 i wanna trade my scream for this beaut. of a frame!

 i would race one i just got a gloty thought dam

  :')

 :'(

 very sick !!

 nice but just banchee

 this bike is amazing! finally banshee comes out with a a/m downhill!

 feckin sweeeet!

 looks like the canfield formula, no shock to find its also made in the same factory..hyped

 good frame

 It looks a lot like the DW-link on the new Turner DHR.

 hey the demo has a new name

 es una mole una bestia

 if it act cums out looking like tht itl be sick bike porn!!

 sweet deatail

 looks much better than some banshee's I've seen

 Looks a bit like Giant's Maestro link.

 mix of demo/glory

 The suspension system is similar to katrpiel's.

 looks like DW-link on an ironhorse

 the back swing arm looks like its off a demo

 looks like a demo kinda