First Look: Production Privee

 I agree. I just bought an Evil Sovereign for less than that.

 For someone with an opinion on everything Waki, I am surprised you could compare how a bike may possibly ride by just the tpes of tube it uses.

Yes, if I had two tubes, one Reynolds 853, one a Cro-Mo 4130 tube, then the Reynolds would obviously be the better tube. But who is to say that once you weld it into two triangles and stick some wheels on it that they are even comparable?

It's not always the material, but the way it is used. Personally I think $500 is a bargain for a frame this good looking, potentially good riding, I wouldn't worry about some stupid badge on the seat tube telling me that its made of more expensive steel, and just go by how it hits the trail.

 It's actually 599€ which is around 792US$ (for 2.6kg)(£502 to me and Eyon), which if you compare it to for example the (a little outdated I know, but comparible in terms of Geo and material) DMR Trailstar which is also made from Chromoly and is 3.06kg and about 440US$ (£280), It seems fair enough. It's a lot lighter and the finish is far superior, at least to look at. Anyone who's had one of the most recent Trailstars will know that the paint job sucks and seems to come off in the wind. Despite the weight and shitey finish, the trailstar was a lot of fun to ride, i'm definitely with Eyon in wanting to see how it rides, and also if the finish stays or not.

 Eyon, I assure you that you could build a singular frame (not Taiwan volume) in UK for that money. There are people charging 1050GBP for fully custom build from Reynolds 953. What costs most is setting up the welding jig and cutting tubes. Material is not everything, true. But if you woud like to buy all tubing from Reynolds UK it would cost you around 220E for R853 and then you would need to buy another material for elements which they don't produce like sheets for drop outs, 73mm BBs, tapered headtubes bladi bla. You would probably end up way under 300Eur for the material.

If now we are talking Cro Mo 4130 which is almost the cheapest you an get (still good enough) you would end up at 100E for the whole material. Sure those HQ steel are a bit questionable as you will still end up with a frame weighing above 2kgs. Whatever, I am sure someone would weld this for you in UK, totaly custom for remianing 499quid. This cro-mo, m5 alu high modulus carbon is a bullshit anyways - what other steel would you build your frame from?! The question might be: is it butted?

Taiwan costs of materials and welding/cutting/heat processing/painting are ridiculously low, even for small numbers. Hence why the price of 599 Eur sounds high to me - just compare to Cotic, Ragley. The fact that you are from UK and say those things is pretty ironic and sad at the same time - I would be way over the moon if I had so much frame builders around and hq material providers, people you can actualy meet and talk to, t whom you give a job, who pay social security, good safety gear to their employees, pay taxes in your country, for social security, infrastructure, people who have higher obligatons to control how the waste is managed (you know if you dump some paint, anodising solution in Yorkshire it's gonna make more sound than in Yon Shao Peng, isn't it?!) - list can go on and on.

Cheers

 Not to mention the bladed rear tubing, the tapered head tube, the BB92 Shimano Press Fit bottom bracket and the research involved in this frame.
Will worth every penny i think;It's not the average taiwan made cromo frame.
@kamba6:evil sovereign full price is 730€...

 BB92 sweet, so I need to buy a crankset with the frame? Let me guess, you don't like Mavic rims either because they are too expensive?

 Aa and tapered headtube is a must in a HT! It makes it stiffer in the corners - I know, we all ram our bikes so hard into them, bending those 1 1/8 tubes under load

What I ultimately meant was: why to go to Taiwan?

OK sorry, I'm done now. All the best of luck to the designer

 No need to a new crankset, only new bearings. A tapered headtube will also let the consumer reuse is fork, regardless its 1/8 or tapered.
Same as the wheels, as the shan come with 135x10mm, 135x12 and singlespeed dropouts.
Why taiwan : Taiwan has the high volume production lines and some very good welders.
The same frame produced in europe will cost at least 150€ more.
Oh, and read all the spec, its Cromo DB 4130 Japan, so double butted tubing maybe from Sanko.
I'm done too.

 Waki, even with all that talk about why Taiwan is cheaper and why some metals are more expensive than others etc etc you forgot a major thing... Profit.

Now as a businessman, you buy your frame for £200. You could sell it for £300 to undercut the competition, OR you sell it for £500 like the rest of the market and make more money? Look at most steel frame manufacturers (ignoring On-One as they are super cheap for everything), they all retail around the £400-£500, so for business, why would you ever sell it cheaper, there is no reason.

UK made frames are potentially cheap to make as there is a link taken out of the chain. It goes Steel -> Weld -> Sell. From Asia it is Steel -> Weld -> Sell -> Ship -> Sell. That extra step can add significant costs for small manufacturers (trust me, I work with Asia day in day out).

Prices are prices because we mugs will pay. The average rider wont give two shits about what steel is used, for 95% of us there are 3 frame materials: steel, alu, carbon. Not Reynolds/4130 Cro-Mo, or 2014/6061/7075, or 3K/12K/UD/Prepreg etc etc... its just steel or aluminium or carbon fibre, end of. So price for the market, make it ride well, make it look good, the sales will roll in.

People only do things for money, and this is the same.

Oh, and you have a very delusional view of this country, most of what you say only happens when you look over to our small island with a very strong pair of rose tinted glasses

 ok ok... last one for those who are into profits, economy simplified: www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXnEnDXIi3M

 @WAKI, Neither Cotic nor Ragley (nor Charge nor DMR for that matter) make their frames in the UK. It would I'm sure be great for the local economy, local bike shops and the consumer - that's why we all go crazy for companies like Hope over here. None of these companies are any better than Production Privee in this respect.

Interestingly enough, I'm sure you saw on the "New SLX" post that bike prices are set to rise by up to 30% next year (by estimates) due to production costs in the Far East rising due to a lack of faith in Western Markets. Plus there's a lot of pressure certainly in the US for the up and coming presidential candidates to bring manufacturing of all kinds back home, in order to bring jobs back and boost local economies, so it will be interesting to see if these kind of changes will be implemented any time soon. On a side note, Nissan have also decided to have a new line cars built in the North East of England bringing back around 400 jobs; especially interesting given that Nissan is a Japanese company and is choosing to have their new car built over here.

Unfortunately, Eyon is right your vision of the UK is somewhat skewed, but certainly not beyond the realms of posibility, and certainly something many of us would like to see return for many reasons, be it environmental, or related to the quality or heritage of the product. I think many bike companies can learn something from outfitters like Brompton Bicycles - worth looking at.