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To The Point: European Protection Standards

Jan 21, 2014
by Matt Wragg  



















TO THE POINT EXTRA
European Protection Standards

WORDS & PHOTOS: Matt Wragg

bigquotesIf I was going out looking for a protector, I would go for a CE, because I know that the non-certified products can be anything. Maybe they still offer some protection, but really, it's a charade. It's looking protective, feeling hard, but does nothing. If it doesn't have a CE mark on it, then the protection is unquantified. - Colin Ballantyne, Alpinestars

How do you know if a protector is going to actually protect you in the event of a crash? For almost ten years Colin Ballantyne has been the man at Alpinestars responsible for their product certification, and he also heads up their special development projects. His laboratory team test all of the protectors and every fabric used in an Alpinestars product extensively to be sure that they will perform when you need them most. The results of his work can be seen on many of the world's fastest racers, from Formula One, MotoGP through to World Cup downhill and Supercross. From Sebastian Vettel and Marc Marquez, to Mic Hannah and Justin Barcia. We sat down with him to understand how the body armour you wear on your bike is certified safe to use.

What standard, or standards are mountain bike protectors tested to?

In terms of protection, if it's a protector, then we test it to motorcycle standards, of which there are two principle ones. There are the European Standards, EN1621-1, which deals with the knee, elbow and shoulder, and EN-1621-2, which deals with the back protector.

What does the standard relate to in terms of real-world impacts?

In terms of real world crashes, the standards are already quite detached. The standard is a tool to assess whether the product meets a certain requirement or not. So, for example, in a crash the amount of energy on the body will be hundreds, even thousands, of joules. In the test in the lab, we only use 50 joules, which can be a tenth of the actual amount. However, when you hit the ground, it is unlikely you will hit the ground all in a single spot, so that energy isn't in a single, tiny area. It's more likely that you stumble on the ground and more than one part of the body hits the ground at once. Therefore, from some original tests, the standard was formulated. It was before my time, maybe throwing dummies out of vans and stuff, and it was equated that 50 joules was a reasonable energy to start with. Then with the energy we deal with the transmitted force and the aim is to have lower transmitted force, meaning that the armour is giving better protection.

European Protection Standards with Alpinestars

How are motorcycle standards relevant to mountain biking? And how have they been adopted?

As I mentioned earlier, the motorcycle impact protector standards only deal with the protector and the transmitted force. Within Alpinestars we have a team of developers who concentrate on cycling technology, rather than motorcycle products, and they create products specifically for mountain-biking. This means that while there is very little restriction on the design of the protector, which means there is a reasonable flexibility of how it can be used, we have developed products that are dedicated to mountain biking which use the CE motorcycling certification standards as a performance benchmark. If you were to take the standard for the motorcycle garment, which is not widely adopted, it's got all these particular regulations for the fabrics and the materials, which would not be suitable for mountain bikes. But as a pure protector... I'm not going to say, "Yes, it's an ideal standard," because I am a big cyclist, I don't participate in competition, but I can say that it's acceptable. I think what's more important is your first question, "Why have we decided to adopt these standards?" When I speak here, I speak from a European perspective, not an American or Australian perspective. In the EU they have the PPE (personal protective equipment) directive. Which means that if you say, "This is giving you protection. I am going to protect you," what the government is saying is, "Prove it." The directive is like the Bible, it's the top document that everything descends from. So, if I put something on the market and say it's protective, people should be able to see it's got a CE mark on it.

Can you explain how we reached this situation?

In the earlier days of bicycle protection, there wasn't much talk. Nobody really knew about it, or asked for it, so people could do whatever they wanted. But all the time, if something were to happen and they were to go to court because of someone being killed, or whatever, it would very quickly come out that you were using a piece of equipment that said it was going to protect you, but didn't have a CE mark on it. So then the industry said, "We need to put a CE mark on our protectors so we can legally sell them, what can we do?" The directive is flexible, in the sense that if there is no standard existing you can create a set of requirements which correspond, which are called the essential requirements of the directive. If they meet, then the notified body, which is the person that gives you the certificate, can certify to this set of requirements that is assessed as appropriate. But, if the notified body gives you this certificate, the notified body doesn't have a defense, the notified body is taking responsibility. If, however, the notified body gives you a certificate to a harmonised European Standard, so if it says EN or even ISO, then they just checked that it conformed with the standard. If anything goes wrong, there's no responsibility in testing as long as they conducted the test correctly. The test lab is absolved of any responsibility. So if you find the right test lab, they may say, "I will give you a certification, not to a harmonised standard, but to the directive that has the same legal status as the harmonised standard," but most of them won't take the responsibility, they won't take the risk. So what's happened is, in terms of mountain bike clothing, the companies have said, “We need a CE mark." And the labs have said, "This one from the motorcycle protectors is probably ok and if we use it, it's a harmonised standard. You can get a certificate and everyone's happy. Everyone knows about it and is experienced." So, I would say that decision was made in the first case out of convenience.

European Protection Standards with Alpinestars

Do you think it's fair to use the motorcycle standards?

Whether it's unfair is a different question. I think with the bare requirement for the transmitted force it's not a bad start. But obviously, if the cycling community is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger, then maybe people will start to say, "Actually I need it adjusted for this." In the CEN, the European Centre Normatif, for European Standards, there isn't a working group for cyclists' clothing. Before you even have the Standard, you have to create the working group. We (Alpinestars) are a member of the working group for motorcycle clothing and at one point a question came up saying, "Can the working group for motorcycle clothing cover some of the work?" It's not just mountain biking that is taking our protectors, skiing is taking our protectors and they are saying, "Can you also work on the ski protectors?" As a committee we say no, because we design for motorcycles, not for skiing. We're not going to take that work on voluntarily, they need to build a new committee and I don't know how and when that will ever happen.

So how come mountain biking isn't represented at CEN?

I don't know if it's a political lobbying thing, it's a case that nobody is saying, "You can't have it." It's a case that the industry would have to organise themselves. It's a case that the main stakeholders getting together and saying, "We want to create a new working group that's a member of the protective clothing division." Again, we're only speaking about Europe here, that doesn't automatically mean the standard you decide here is automatically going to be accepted by the US or other countries. It's a matter of fact that in Europe, the armour standard has made it, because it's so old - it was 1997 when it was introduced. It's just that Europe has a structure in place with the notified bodies, which are the independent labs to give the certificates and the support of the government agencies to enforce the directive. Because the directive, for good and for bad, is for work clothing, it's just because we are offering protection that it has fallen inside it. Ultimately it's more for hearing protectors and all that kind of stuff.

Has enforcement been an issue with a relatively small industry like mountain biking?

Let me say that, in a way I think it's taken a much longer time for certified products to be available in the mountain bike market because of the enforcement. But, overall, the amount of enforcement is still relatively low. It's still a case that the countries where they might mention something are... Well, France is number one, they are the most on top of the enforcement. Then you might get something from Germany, maybe the UK. Sometimes the Eastern Bloc countries might want to see a certificate before the product goes through customs, but I'd say overall there's not a lot of enforcement for the motorcycle, so for the bicycle there's even less.

European Protection Standards with Alpinestars

What should consumer be looking for when they buy protectors?

There's another thing I need to tell you. Certification to a directive has three categories, they have to be 1, 2 or 3. Category 1 is what is called "simple PPE", which means that if it fails, the person can understand in due course and take corrective action. An example for that might be swimming goggles. If I'm in the water and they leak, I notice the water coming in and say, "Oh, these are broken." At the other end of the scale you have category 3, complex PPE, which means that not just the product is certified, but the manufacturing procedure is certified. These products are considered life-threatening products. So it might be a harness for rock climbing, which you need to know works all the time, not a bit of the time. Or a breathing mask, or even a pair of rubber gloves for chemical use. If you put your hand in some acid, you need protection all the time, not "Oh, it's leaking," because by the time you spot that the acid is leaking in, half of your hand is dissolved. Anything that doesn't fall into category 1 or 3, is category 2. Basically, all motorcycle clothing, which is giving what is described as limited protection, is called category 2. Category 2 means you must use an external lab to give the certificate, while category 1 you can self-certify. So the confusion for customers is that some people will put a CE mark on a product referring to it as a category 1 protector and people think it's certified, when actually it's not. So I can decide, with the impact test, that under 100 kilonewtons is a pass and put a CE mark on it myself. So what the customer needs to check for is, first of all, the CE mark. Then you need to check if it refers to the harmonised standard, which will say EN-1621-1 or EN-1621-2, if it's referring to the motorcycle standard, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a harmonised standard . If that's not the case, you need to look at the marking or in a booklet, and a booklet must always accompany the product. The booklet it will say," This is certified to 89/686/EEC, which is the name of the directive, and it might even say category 2. An example of that is a neck support, as there is no standard for neck support or neck protectors, but we are offering protection. So over two and a bit years, we were able to persuade the notified body that we work with to release us a category 2 certificate. So we don't say the number of a standard, but on the label of a neck support we say category 2 89/686/EEC. They are things you need to look for: a CE, a harmonised standard or, if not, a reference to category 2 89/686/EEC.

What would you buy, if you were shopping for a protector?

If I was going out looking for a protector, I would go for a CE, because I know that the non-certified products can be anything. Maybe they still offer some protection, but really, it's a charade. It's looking protective, feeling hard, but does nothing. If it doesn't have a CE mark on it, then the protection is unquantified. If it says it's a protector, under the motorcycle standard we generally mean the transmitted force, the make up of the garment is not included, which means if the material is very weak and you crash, it could be the case that the fabric could tear. Which is why we also developed test to check the strength of the fabric.

Where would you like to see mountain bike protection standardisation move towards in the future?

At the moment we're dealing primarily with impact protectors, which is the same kind of thing we're using for motorcycling. As the standards are updated for motorcycling, and the standard for the limb protector was updated this year, that was probably also an acceptable upgrade for the mountain bike one as well. It's just that for the motorcycle, there's the standard for the garment that holds the protector as well. The way the standard is written is not well accepted, but we're working on that, it'll be fixed in future. That means there should be more certified garments, but is that something that will also slide across to mountain biking or not? It's much less transferable.

European Protection Standards with Alpinestars

One big problem with cycling is that what an average leisure cyclist does is so far away from World Cup downhill, should there be a distinction in the standards?

Possibly, in the sense that the draw of armour into cycling has understandably been through downhill. Up until that point, everyone in cross country has been surviving, not to say they're not having nasty crashes, but there's not been the draw, which I think is also related to the ergonomics and the ambient of the garment. If you're going downhill, maybe it's more acceptable to wear this heavier clothing, but if you're going uphill you don't want all the protection. In any case, what can be said is that the customer, regardless of whether they're a cyclist or motorcyclist, in terms of the protector wants the same - it needs to be as light and thin as possible.

www.alpinestarscycling.com

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68 Comments
  • 592
 For once a "to-the-point" article which brings general information on a topic, and not on the product of the guys company. Thanks to Matt Wragg and Colin Ballantyne.
  • 91
 Not to criticize earlier articles but this one was awesome! Thanks Matt. Keep it up.
  • 74
 It's because it was't written by Richard Cunningham for once...
  • 30
 think of all the armour she could buy
  • 42
 I would like to ask if the "Enduro specific" is relevant?
  • 200
 Interesting article, would be a good move if the major players in protection would team up and make cycling-specific standards!
  • 10
 maybe they already are Wink
  • 30
 I agree that we need better standards for our protection in mtb but there needs to be a cycle ce stamp as whilst casing a 30ft gapper and getting flung over the bar can be similar to a head on motorbike crash smashing through a rock garden with your body isnt and in some cases there is a small impact point when you hit a rock. Im glad that alpinestars are taking this seriously now let hope other companies follow and do the same
  • 30
 Actually a motor cycle crash is frequently quite similar to a rock garden crash. For example, losing traction in a turn can send you directly into the curb. Granted, that curb impact might be preceded by brief but serious road rash. Curbs are dangerous!
  • 30
 Ahh didnt think about that one dude ok I retract the rock garden section cheers for pionting it out to me and road rash sucks ballsbig time
  • 41
 @WAKABA why would you want to sue the company that could potentially save your life. It gets on my nerves when all people want to do is sue a company because they choose to use the equipment out side of the suggest guidelines. If you take the risk sometime you pay the price why should a company that works its ass off to find new ways of trying to reduce the risk of serious injury have to pay because of the rider going way beyond there ability. If you wamt to wear equipment that hasn't been tested and risk your like then thats your choice but I wont asni would much rather pay out £300+ for a troy lee d3 that I know is tested and has saved the lifes of many of the people I ride with than some cheaper helmet which hasnt been tested. When you ride at a high level you have to know your equipment will hold up in the event of a crash
  • 20
 Yeah, every time somebody gets sued, we all lose a little freedom. In Ontario, there have been a few lawsuits against lift assist hills, and what is the result? Calabogie closed down completely, Blue Mountain removed all features involving airtime. If you can't pay, don't play.
  • 23
 if you don't want to be sued make a good product, dont play gamble on the lives of those using your products!!
  • 10
 Idk, wakaba (correctly) points out that CE is as much about companies covering ass as it is about protecting consumers.

@foghorn the issue wakaba was talking about isn't "suing vs not suing", it's "suing vs legislation/certification". I would argue that the ability to sue places MORE freedom in the hands of consumers and offers a way for consumers and businesses to work things out on their own if they want to, without broad sweeping changes to the industry. The equivalent to your example would be if people got hurt at your bike parks and the govt decided to step in and say ALL parks have to do A, B, and C, and ALL jumps have to be constructed in a certain way. That forces broad changes for all parks and doesn't give people the ability to choose how to run their businesses or what features to ride. Sure, lawsuits can shut down businesses, but legislation can screw the whole industry. In reality, those aren't the only two solutions, and in response to a lawsuit the other bike parks get to CHOOSE whether to keep big trail features, or they could simply tighten up the legal coverage in their waivers or whatever.
  • 20
 @thebatu seriously!!! as someone who has built in bike parks around Western Canada it sucks when everything has a restriction. can't build drops over 6ft, cant build jumps over 10ft, cant build doubles. People are dumb and rent a big 8in suspension bike and think they are a hero and charge a trail that is well out of their ability and fall, then sue. Thats not the trails, fault its the rider, sueing does nothing but put money in greedy pockets and ruin things for the true passionate riders who accept mountain biking is dangerous and at some point you are going to tune yourself
  • 50
 Ah, the crossroads of personal responsibility, corporate liability, and the role of government. I wouldn't really count on a 'fair and balanced' discussion when these three elements are in play. I'm already hearing the lasses faire argument from @bkm303 and @doyglas123 (regulation sucks, do away with it), @wakaba calling industry out for being disingenuous and hiding behind a 'standard' that relieves them of liability, @foghorn stating that one should accept responsibility for being a dumb @$$ and riding over one's head and getting hurt.

This scale will always slide depending on who you are and how you see the roles of the individual, corporations, and government intersecting. If it were easy to figure out where these lines should cross, then there would be a dearth of lawsuits, few regulations and corporations that acted responsibly as a matter of course. However, the lines are blurry as hell, and in countless cases, neither individuals nor corporations want to take responsibility for their choices, be they personal, design, manufacture or perceived or actual liability. So we've come up with a breadth of legal systems and regulations to ostensibly clear the waters after disagreements where the lines cross. And still we debate where they should cross. Always will.

So many economic decisions in these discussions, cost-benefit analysis, supply and demand, regulations, opportunity cost... Almost makes me wish I was teaching economics...
  • 20
 @reverend Well put. I pose the laissez faire argument partly as a devil's advocate -- do I like how lawsuits and liability are handled in all cases? Definitely not. But I think people in these types of arguments are too quick to throw out the baby (people's means of legal redress against the govt/corporations/people) with the real or perceived bathwater (frivolous/dishonest lawsuits). It's all well and good to talk about personal responsibility and owning up to your mistakes, and that's absolutely how I believe people SHOULD live their lives, but the fact is that you can't rely on other people to live that way (and sometimes fault is unclear). To say that lawsuits impair freedom because bad ones exist is like saying representative government is flawed because our current congress is dysfunctional. The embodiment may be complex and imperfect, but when these systems work as they're supposed to they provide us a means to be heard and defend our freedoms.
  • 20
 well said gentlemen
  • 10
 Well bike parks are different from certain kind of products lets say body armor! When you go to a bike park you know at once if you can make the jump or not, If you take the risk you have already signed a paper on the entrance of the park that you accept the responsibility of your actions,. However, when I buy a body armor I do not sign a paper saying I am taking the responsibility of the body armor, but the company who sold me the armor takes the responsibility of protecting me up to some level ofc.
  • 10
 @thebatu I think you missed the point. You're also grossly oversimplifying how legal liability works and forgetting the enormous cost of drawn-out lawsuits that could be avoided if people/riders would spend a bit more time considering their actions before engaging in a risky activity and, if they still chose to proceed, take responsibility for the potential outcomes regardless of how grim a prospect that might be.
  • 30
 Spine protection works. Helmets work. All other body protection is not going to prevent broken bones.
I think it is more important to have a proper fitting helmet with the straps tight! The helmet should be replaced after a few years as well.
What happened to Snell and ANSI standards? Not good enuf?
  • 30
 Well ANSI is based in North America, and Alpinestars designs to EU legislated standards (I think CE is the Euro equivalent of ANSI?). I think Snell mainly deals with helmets.
  • 20
 Spine protection works... sometimes... in some cases. Depends what kind of injury you're talking about. A major problem with armor/PPE is that it doesn't cover against all types of injury and the illusion of safety can be pretty dangerous.

Based on what I just read, and the little bit I know, it seems the standards have more to do with material selection and manufacturing processes than mechanisms of injury.
  • 60
 One of the best and most intetesting To the Point articles so far.
  • 614
flag wakaba (Jan 21, 2014 at 1:32) (Below Threshold)
 Sorry. Lot`s of red tape drawn by comitees, regulations to prevent and delay legal action from consumers that got hurt by failing equippment.
Its excactly the opposite. Company liability protection instead of consumer protection. It means CE is worth s;:8 because if you buy CE, you limit your ability to sue. Non CE is probably in most cases as strong. So there is no inherent quality advantage in the CE label. Which makes this a turdhead proposition. It just needs to comply to EN1621 protective mx gear. CE is not necessary for the consumer.
  • 110
 If you are wearing a helmet and crash your fr/dh/ss or xc bike and the helmet saves your life but you end up with whiplash and a stage 3 concussion that doesn't give you the right to sue say alpinestars or 661 because you chose to take that risk. We all accept the risks when we ride in our chosen discipline. I ride slopestyle and dh and when I crash im glad that I know the company who made my helmet, neck brace and knee pads have conformed to a CE level 2. As for turd head proposition I think if anyone who decided to ride with equipment that wasnt tested is a retard
  • 20
 If you are wearing a helmet and crash your fr/dh/ss or xc bike and the helmet saves your life but you end up with whiplash and a stage 3 concussion that doesn't give you the right to sue say alpinestars or 661 because you chose to take that risk. We all accept the risks when we ride in our chosen discipline. I ride slopestyle and dh and when I crash im glad that I know the company who made my helmet, neck brace and knee pads have conformed to a CE level 2. As for turd head proposition I think if anyone who decided to ride with equipment that wasnt tested is a retard
  • 410
flag wakaba (Jan 21, 2014 at 4:35) (Below Threshold)
 EN 1621 test is ok. If the equipment passes - even better. You will have a hard time suing CE company. So yes, riding a CE certified helmet is a bit like waving your rights. The ball gets passed around. Hard to understand? CE is minimal requirements and not quality testing. The world works slightly different thank you think.
  • 50
 ok you go wear you protective gear that isn't tested and when you crash and your gear fails because it hasn't properly tested then I will agree but for the time being I will stick to my life saving CE certified leatt brace my CE certified D3 and my CE certified POC body armour because I know when I crash my equipment will hold up to it because I would much rather waver my rights as a consumer to sue a company if I now the product has been tested to a high standard. I think you need to do your research first before spouting off about your rights as a customer because in the sport we do its not a question of passing the blame its a question of you push you limits you sometimes get hurt so man up princess and stop blaming your crashes on companies that spend billions a year in testing and prototyping to make safer equipment for you. if you don't like it go ride without a helmet and see where an over the bars impact with a tree gets you
  • 62
 Wakaba people like you have ruined this world. If you backup plan for fucking up is suing someone, well then I hope you die next time you fuck up. All these dumb lawsuits from idiots that can't calculate risks, is what forced Mt Washington to close their bike park, because insurance was too high. I think the only time you should sue someone, is if they con you, or injure you in say a car crash. Anything you do to yourself, you should have to take responsibility for!
  • 20
 Hypothetically......You might think differently after laying in a hospital bed for 6 mos with no sense of feeling from the waist down. A lawyer might be able to talk you into making a gear company foot the bill for a new access ramp to your house and a nurse to visit 3 days a week.
  • 10
 Well said sir. I could of sued the ramp company when I fucked up a flip whip but I was trying a new trick and came out swinging and stacked the hospital said thankfully I was wearing my leatt brace as it saved my life the next day I sent them a letter thanking them because I would of snapped my c3 and c4 vertebrae if it wasnt for there brace
  • 30
 Guys.... how is this hard to understand??? Wakaba is saying that the CE test has fairly little bearing on what will actually happen to you in a crash, but at the same time CE certification removes (or at least makes more difficult) your means of legal redress if you feel like the equipment didn't do what it was supposed to. He's not saying everyone should buy untested cardboard equipment, he's saying that unless the testing ACCURATELY reflects real-world crashes you shouldn't give up your right to take the company to court.

Frankly, PPE standards aren't always that stringent. For example, safety glasses can be CE/ANSI certified against impacts, but that doesn't mean the side shields on lots of commercially available safety glasses aren't a f*cking joke. Those standards exist to protect the companies from liability because they can point to the test and say their product passed, but was the test REALLY representative of a potential accident? That's the issue here.

And to those saying "take responsibility blah blah blah", what happens if a bike park does a shitty job building a catwalk and it breaks and injures people? Or your bike gets hung up in a shitty lift rack and gets damaged, and the park won't cover it? You might think lawsuits are frivolous or stupid, but citizens have to have a legal means of forcing businesses/people to take responsibility.
  • 31
 @bkm: Thanks.

@fractalman: I do none of that. I just read an interview and am flabbered at the spin someone plunks at an audience.

For myself and my kids: MX gear tested to high EN1620 is doing the trick. CE is not. That looks like this: EN-Dh helmet because MX are a bit too heavy for my and kids neck. EN roost guard from FOX with shoulder/spine/ rib protection, solid plastic. EN ixs knee and shin protection, solid plastic. EN roadmotorbike and mx gloves with plastic and kevlar pads. I dont really buy dh-stuff - overpriced, shortwearing or enduro marketed stuff which is even worse and almost always CE tested. The marketed softshell vests are really illconceived - they can be CE tested and fullfill min. requirements but dont offer much protection.
  • 20
 Much of the vitriol above (most specifically @FractalMan, hiding behind anonymity, wishing DEATH on someone, then others +1ing his comment) is why I most often steer clear of comment sections on the interwebs in general. Where do people off wishing death on someone for engaging in thoughtful discussion?

I found food for thought in @wakaba's comments, yet they are neg propped, while @FractalMan's wish for the death of a fellow human being is upvoted. Now that is messed up. Community? Hmmmm.
  • 10
 So I guess it wasn't very obvious, but my death wish on Wakaba was Hyperbole. I don't actually want him to die next time he f*cks up. But people who look for reasons (that are not blatantly obvious) to sue people/corporations, do make this world a shittier place.

I believe in this crazy thing called, being accountable for your own actions. In all walks of life. I know with the amount of stupidity in this world, that is not a reasonable possibility, but I can dream can't I?

So let me try to explain myself in a slightly less violent, more well though out manner.

Say you are riding a bike park for the first time. You don't know the trails at all, and you see a sign saying advanced ladder bridge line. Not knowing what the ladder bridge is like, but thinking you are an advanced rider, you decide to take it. Keep in mind this is all hypothetical. Now if you are not as good as you thought, and fall off said ladder bridge, it is 100% your fault. And if it is 100% your fault, you have no right to sue anyone.

However lets say instead of falling off, the bridge breaks, and you fall off and break your leg. Now it is 0% your fault, so you have all the right in the world to sue them.
  • 20
 However in the utopia I would like to live in, you wouldn't even have to sue them. They would acknowledge their f*ck up and pay for your medical bills. I know this is a pipe dream, and will never happen, but god damn I think it would be awesome.

Basically bureaucracy has ruined the world, because it handles everything the same, based on a predefined set of rules. And life is way to complex for that shit. So I don't want anyone to die needlessly (especially a mountain biker, because lets face it, most of us are pretty fricking awesome) and I don't really even care about safety standards, as pertaining to this article.

I just don't think you should ever think "Will I be able to sue them if I f*ck up," before you buy something. I realize now that is not what Wakaba was saying, but at first glance that is what prompted my mean spirited response
  • 20
 Word.

Though, with the rise of multinational corporations and the fact that they exist longer than human lifespans, and have the ability to affect legislation and regulation to mitigate their liabilities over generations, is worrisome. Corporations are NOT people, (despite what the Supreme Court of the USA might have to say on the matter) and there is no human to hold accountable for their harm of people or the environment. Granted, this applies to corporations that are larger than the average bicycle or parts/gear manufacturer, but I am much more wary of corporations than I am of bureaucracy.
  • 30
 Well, if Alpinestars ever needs a product "tester" or "testers", the DH team that im on is always looking to save some skin or prevent a broken bone...Big Grin
  • 20
 Honestly who the f*ck makes protective gear with out testing it! Go to a Bell Helmet web site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't buy your helmet from Walmart!
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VYxYSLY820A
  • 10
 No kidding.
  • 10
 The CE label and printed material that comes with the product can be made by anyone. Make a few products have them tested in the lab, pass and then switch to your cheaper raw material inputs and low quality processes. The critical step for all of these standards and certifications is the inspection and compliance process. Do the bodies that oversee all of this inspect the manufacturer's facilities to ensure compliance and grant the rights to use the markings and standard references? All of this means more money for your safer better constructed product. Buy from a company you can trust.
  • 10
 Yup, buyer beware.

CE def'n sounds like make what you want of anything, the actual EN standard of performance which is what we are interested in seems pretty weak. Motorcycle gear? Uh... Not so good. There are sharp edges in the woods not nice round things! Two different sports.

Sure bike stuff is category 2 gear, but that only seems to refer to reliability and consistency. For example lesser protective pads could be in the highest category(3) if they perform poorly but with high reliability. What really makes the difference is the EN std. Something we don't need to worry about with other standards that deal specifically with cycling...?
  • 10
 Great article - I have a pair of TLD KG5450 Knee and Elbows EG5550 - that just say 89/686/EEC...according to the Alpinestar guy - these should be tested to en1621 - Which one of these MX megacorps are correct anyone? If it is AStar....that means the TLD stuff on sale in Europe is illegal tut tut lol!!!!It looks pimp but Gotta say it is a bit light weight....hmmm. I know Mace had to withdraw all their stuff back in the day - be a bummer for TLD if they had to do the same.
  • 10
 I have the Tld's as well. I have crashed too many times and they have worked exceedingly well. Ce or not. I'd like to see a lab test that actually simulates the crazy shit that happens in trail crash , good luck..
  • 10
 The CE logo is a bunch of crap from the EU that DOES NOT guarantee any quality product... The Chinese proved it with putting in the the CE label in there home made garbage productswich they ship to Europe and NO organisation in Europe that will check those products if they meet up the safety issues ..... BS 4 SURE! Welcome to the real world Neo! XP
  • 10
 I haven't even realised that there is protective gear without CE. What is the point of a protective product without CE? Additional weight?
  • 10
 cheaper
  • 20
 a protective product without CE is not tested according to safety regulations ( EN1621-1 and others)
.
for example : would you buy a car that has not passed the crash test? Smile


please note, do not confuse C E (European Commission) and CE ( China export ) : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
  • 30
 The question should be would you buy a cheaper car that doesn't move? The only function of protective gear is to protect. Since It does not work good enough without the C E, it is like a car that doesn't move. Whoever buys this because it is cheaper, he is cheating himself or wants to upgrade a cheap poser's image, showing everybody "the pro look". I would prefer to have less protective gear with C E that a full set of cheaper gear without it. Gear without C E can even make it worse during a crash.
  • 10
 yes,cheaper gears protections..
  • 20
 NOOOO. The point is, there might be some companies out there who will sell a piece of gear that protects nothing but looks as good as the gear that does it's job. Unfortunately you won't know this until you actually crash. When you shop for a car and it doesn't move when you test drive it, then you just don't buy that car. You don't get that option when buying a helmet.
  • 10
 The C E sign is clearly visible on the inside of every helmet, as well as on the badge sewed to majority of pads. So in my opinion it is even easier to judge comparing to a car which one has to try to start or test. Anyway we all know the rule. No gear without C E and there is no point in thinking about lack of money to buy something. Instead aim thinking on how to earn money. Spending less money on stuff usually turns out to be more expensive since there is a need to by something better.. if you are lucky enough to have an opportunity to buy something else, becasue as you said it might occur very unfortunate during a crash.
  • 20
 Cool article - some very important points here, hopefully people are actually reading it!
  • 10
 Now I am freaked out!! I was going to buy 661 Core Saver CE Wired 2013 body armor. but now I am not sure of their standerds !! Must i read the whole manual !!!!
  • 10
 This is good for the consumers. It let us know that the product will do as intended.
  • 10
 Blah Blah Blah....rules, rules, rules
  • 20
 I like hearing that from someone in AZ. Usually your state gets recognized for blah blah blah illegal immigration... not following the rules, blah blah blah.
  • 10
 Ha ha ha.Si, moi funny!
  • 10
 That was very funny, touche'
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