Builders V. Loggers

 That's probably one of the most epic things I've heard lol.

 Hey All, thanks for the props. Tree Lines apparel is available at Hidden Wave board shop in Burlington WA. The link is right under the vid, www.hiddenwave.net or email info@hiddenwave.net

 Those trails look like some loamy fun.

 good point

 fuck yeah

 3:29 = Sick

 What a great shot!

 i agree.... 3:29 was amazing. never seen anything like that before

 yea 3.29 was the coolest thing. a really good idea.

 3.29=POD

 Do it your self and be the recipient of that respect , it's a great feeling

 i do build myself

 Its a shame the UK isnt as free as Canada eh?

 yeah man whenever we build something it usaully gets changed or destroyed by this gay xc club who ride UP a dh track

 Shit I know people locally who have had shotguns been aimed at them by angry farmers through trail building when they dont even use the land.

 yeh in uk you have to get permission (mostly have to buy the land) then get planning permission and permission from the ranger and insurance and yeh loads of places we build the land isn't evan used

 yeah thats the biggest piss take of it all the land isnt even used

 Pfftt makes me furious.

 guys guys guys!!!. i am a trail builder, i work with a landowner responsibly, i lease land off of him, procure insurance and build trails.
thats what you have to do. why do you all assume its your god given right to effectively go into someones backyard start digging it up and putting structures/stunts in and run the risk of said owner getting sued if someone hurts themselvse - ITS NOT YOUR LAND, if you want to use it put together a proposal and speak to the owner. if its a no go, then just accept it its not your land.

the hardest thing i have to deal with is getting other bikers to chip in for the insurance and building costs £25 a year (each!) - thats all the cost of a full set of brake pads on their £2k + rigs, its a battle every bloody year. fuk! do you know you are even born!!!

(generalisation here....not aimed at anyone in particular)
if you have to do it secretly, do it in the knowledge you are acting illegally and putting the sport in a bad name,...but do it safely so folk dont get hurt coz of some shit stunt you have made and have an idea of how lucky you are to do to this sport.

 Right let me start by saying I wasn't born yesterday and do understand that it is their land but what I'm trying to say is that we didn't get any warning our trails were getting destroyed the landowner just comes along and bull doses the lot without any warning and also takes our spades right in front of us I would of been fine if he simply said that he is going to destroy them and if we can peacefully move on but no our spades get stolen and we get threatened to be arrested so I do see where you are coming from but I have my own reason behind what I am saying

 Oh here we fucking go.

 Sorry but why should a land owner give you warning that he's gonna knock down a big load of dirt stack you built on HIS land with out permission ? It's like some one digging in your garden whom you don't even know who did not even ask !
But yeah I know how annoying it is when it happens but when you build on private land with out consent you always have to be aware that at anytime it can all be gone.

 lol ^^^^ beat me to it..

i know its a pain jake, but its just the way it is. most landowners would probably ask or tell you nicely that stuffs getting ripped down if you had asked them nicely to put the stuff up. if you just do it it regardless... of course their reaction is gonna be "little cheeky fukkers, fuk them i'm going in and getting rid of this shit!!"....wouldnt you?
You have to take the fact that you love biking and trail digging out of the equation, as the landowner most likely doesnt love going biking. its a simple as this - do anythng to someones property (from land to clothes, to paintings, to cars) without owners persmission then expect a shit storm!!

 bigburd what im saying is we would like some notice so we can get our things and leave im not saying that the world should be given to us just that its nice to keep our tools that we have bought. anyway we have a new spot now where the landowner turns a blind eye to it so everything is cool sorry if i caused any disruption on this little conversation

and yeah forkbrakyker i do see where your coming from its just not nice getting our things taken and yeah from now on im gonna make sure its cool with the landowner before i start building to prevent anymore issues

 Nah you caused no disruption , just a nice mini-debate , I agree that some warning that stuff is to be demolished would be nice but stealing your equipment is pretty un excusable really. Good luck with your new spot dude , we are currently looking for a new spot too as ours has been found by the masses of track editing , foul mouthed idiots that have been so abusive to locals who live near the trails that the police have told us not to ride there anymore , 3 years of building gone ...

 fair point but it's out of order when they take all our shovels and wheel barrows.

 ah man thats not cool thats why me and my mates keep our trails as secret and as hidden as possible i.e taking different roots into the trails to avoid any paths being formed and yeah we had a good 1 1/2 years digging destroyed and they took our spades and wheel barrow which was expensive shit

 yeh we carried our bikes in but most of our shovels we had nicked in the first place but still they were good shovels.

 the way to not get your shovels stolen is to lock them up with an old bike lock or just take then home each time which can be a pain but it needs to be done

 I work in the Forest Industry in BC. Logging companies can be worked with to reach compromises, and often have 'social indicators' that pertain to trails. Sometimes agreements can be worked out to either buffer existing trails, or help re-build a trail after logging. It is always something to consider if you know your local trails might be logged.

 How much logging is done to "fully natural" forests comparing to man-seeded forests in BC?

 they might be clearing out the coaster this year colin.

 As a fourth generation logger, I enjoy these guy's attitude about the trail getting logged. they didn't sue or protest, they just said well. We did it once, we can do it again somewhere else, they just did what they had to do for work. Which is what happens, we don't enjoy ripping through peoples trails. Everyone does something for the money. Trail building though is one of the most rewarding things... then to ride them when their done and know you made something awesome is like an extra high five haha

 Im glad this didn't turn into a hate forum for loggers (like what would have happened if it was here in the USA). Biking is fun, for most of us, its a part of life, but logging for the loggers is their livelyhood. It lets them have the income do to their passions and loves. As sad as it is to see a trail gone, I'm glad everyone here seems to understand that loggers are people, too.

 If thats the case, a lot of me died. But the same part of me that died put the damn food on my table day after day, year after year.

 emo tales? emo is the guy bitching about a trail getting lost due to people doing what they were told to. If I had the time or the interest I may grow my own food, but you'd be a hypocrite for making that statement. And do myself a favor? Seriously, I don't know if you've ever had to pay for things you need with pennies but it isn't a great feeling. I made it out of a shithole and into a nice living, I'm entitled to say what I please, so I'll "brag" as much as I want to, thanks.

Topic, Need more people building like this in Washington! The park guys tear them down almost monthly :/

 WAKIdesigns....I know you like to play the know-it-all on PB, but the vast majority of the trails in our part of the world (including these trails) are in 2nd and 3rd growth areas. These are working forests planted specifically for harvest. Unlike other parts of the world, the US has conserved "some" of our older forests in the way of National Parks, Wilderness and other Conservation areas and these trails sure as hell aren't in those. We all build knowing that.there is always a chance they will be logged sooner or later. Does it suck when it happens and you see years of your work gone? Sure, but that's the deal. Also, as long as we build houses with wood, write/print on paper and wipe our arses, I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say that logging isn't a necessity.

 props at ya pS-P-TO-D-Km

 WAKI man, do you use paper? or have anything wooden at all? you also create demand, and i bet you also purchase food.

 didn't mean to start an argument. I grasp that we all use paper and lumber here and abroad. if you want to slow down logging, depress demand. we all need jobs to feed ourselves and family if we're lucky to have one. maybe it's good to confront people with that image. if it happens in the deep far off places for years and years and suddenly it's in our backyard. it's just an indicator. if you want to do something about it, you need to know about it. anyways, I'm gonna go ride my bike tomorrow on a trail called log jam.

 Hamncheez - It is here in the US. . .

EBX - You said it, man. This trail starts in third growth and ends in second growth. And yes, WAKI sure does like to play know-it-all. Sometimes I like his points, sometimes not. This time I don't, for the most part. I do believe that we (people in general) could do a MUCH better job using resources more efficiently and thus, cut WAY down on our consumption of forestry products. I also think that the forestry industry could do a much better job of effectively using the trees that they harvest. The pile of logs that we were sitting on for the sound bytes are logs left behind to rot, and that is just one pile of many. But that is most definitely not the fault of the loggers, they just deliver what the mill tells them to get.

 jeez theres a whole heap of ammo in the world for arguing this one till the cows come home (preferably for my dinner)

the way i see logging and trail building/riding.... logging happened way before trail building ever happened...it totally sucks when a forest gets destroyed for any reason, and i bet my bottom dollar, that the vast majority of loggers dont particulalry like to see it get destroyed either...... but whats the option?...we live on this planet we need to use its resources to progress. if we dont build out of trees then we build out of concrete and steel. trees grow back in 30- 50 odd years....mineral ores...well maybe call it a round billion years. the more useage of trees mean more forests to plant meaning more trails to build woop woop!!! and how many trails in the world stay excatly the same for more than a few years anyway?

keep progressing, keep changing, keep riding and stop dropping fukking litter in the forests!!

 Anyone interested in learning more about this debate should read "The Final Forest" by William Dietrich. It chronicles the so called 'Owl Wars' in the early 90's, fought over the preservation of old growth forests in the PNW, Washington's Olympic Peninsula especially. It does a good job of sharing the perspectives of people on all sides of the issue, without passing judgement.

I bring it up because the loggers interviewed consistently expressed their frustrations with urbanites saying loggers hate nature and so on. Many of them chose a hard, dangerous career in the woods because they love nature so much, and would never choose living in a city like those criticizing them.

Trees grow back.

 @captainBLT,
living in the city does not mean that you don't like "nature", and it sure as heck doesn't mean you use more resources. I wont be knocking on loggers. But, living in a more wooded or spread out location means that you use more resources yourself, as well as taking up more space than people in a city setting. Other than that, I like your post and the idea to read "The Final Forest"

 I live in outter seattle (city) area, that doesn't mean I don't commute or grew up in the forrest lol

 If you don't like logging try wiping your a$$ with plastic. This debate can go on forever but the fact is everyone uses wood products in their life, even if we try to cut back. You just have to accept it and work with foresters to make sure that both trails and cutblocks can happen.

 With all this talk about deforestation and hurting the enviromnment in that way, i think we forget that the cycling industry is far from easy on the environment...im going to grow up and start a recycled high-end tire/tube company

 @hankyman
I completely agree. My main point is that these issues are extremely complex and cannot be reduced to 'natural forests are good' and 'cutting forests is bad'.

 Ps-p-to-d-km
Something tells me you came to this forum ready to slap anyone who has anything against deforestation. I don't attack loggers; living normal western life and being angry at logging companies for cutting trees down is like writing status on facebook about women raped in Kongo, using IPhone. Those who carry responsibility for excessive deforestation is all of us, especially those who don't give a fk about active ecology like recycling, reusing and buying stuff that can last for years.

What I started with was the question: how much is commercial growth being cut down comparing to natural, old one, because I thought some logger can give informative contribution. Maybe it would give some people some more motivation to save wood based products.

But instead some of you wanted to play tough boys giving lectures about economy and production like: try wiping your ass with plastic. So to move your brain cells a bit: if I am recycling, reusing paper, byuing second hand quality furniture that will last for tens of years intead of cheap crap: does that mean I am taking food off ps-p-to-d-km's table? Am I not destryiong jobs of eveyone in the wood supply chain?

 We export a lot of wood, its not just us.

 Wakidesigns - in BC most of the forest has already been logged once. I work 99% in second growth forests. It is called a "tree farm license", land set aside for logging. As it is steep and treacherous, we can only access about 33% of the wood. The other 67% will likely never be logged as we can't get to it in an economical way. We have strict guidelines as to what and how we can log. I hang the ribbons to where to cutblock will be, and no less than 3 or 4 forest professionals will check it for environmental and safety concerns.

100% of what we cut is re-planted with the proper species, usually within 6 months of the logging. The forest companies are responsible for getting the site re-stocked.

 WAKI - Most people in Canada (Let alone Poland) don't even realize how much uncut forest there is here! Focus on your own country and chill out eh!

 derekr - I'm not even close to start btchn on Canada or any other country about anything so chill out

CanadaDiscGolf - thanx for the info

My concerns are coming from what happened to forests in my hometown. A massive die off due to seeding species not natural for the area. I mean if you stand on top of high mountain and everywhere you look there are miles of fallen trees then it is just a terrible view. Then you walk or ride among what's left and you see that all of that will die. Then you see forest administration having no bloody clue how to get all of that down the mountains, so they destroy everything, creating huge fireroads of terrible quality, or making halfpipes paralell to slope angle, to just tow the stuff down, destroying everything on the way, including healthy forests. Several loggers died due to working in machines on too steep slopes. Few houndred miles west, ironically in the poorest region of Poland, there are well established plots with quality fireroad system around them. I moved to Sweden 5 years ago, and honestly seeing what goes on in mountains in my hometown, is one of the reasons why I'm not sure if I want to come back. In a way it's nobody's fault - but still it's a big part of my life gone, and someone is treating the deadman with no respect at all...

So sorry for my outburst

 oh waki!, you are right but i'm sorry to say wrong at the same time. sounds like you have geniune issues with your experience with forestry commissions, but in the northern hemisphere we as a whole work pretty well with forestry and sounds like your case is just one badly managed scenario which is not the norm.

scotland lost most of it natural forest 100s of years ago and its brutal, but the civilised world has progressed massively from then, and most wood is farmed....in the sense its technically private property, owned by someone, developed for foresty to be then chopped down and replanted in, just like a crop but instead of a year turnaround its anything form 7 years to 30 years. in the grand scheme of things its a just a blip on the radar of time.

2 things i want to say -

1.seeing as the worlds population is growing in size and demand, what do you propose we do instead of farming forest for materials. theres no point getting all uppity in your counter arguments that lead no where. what is your suggestion to remedy the problem, you usually seem to be a clever guy so add some intellect to the argument instead of vitriol.

2. i used to assume a beat down position on america and its wasteful cavalier attitude to the environment. but i went to the east coast of America last year on a roadtrip, and the amount of forest there is unfathomable ...i'm talking like 1000s and 1000s of square miles (and its just a tiny fraction of the forest in america), and as far as i could see the americans in the countryside love their nature and forest - and they do look after it and treat it with respect.

the southern hemisphere is another argument entirely, but thats what greenpeace is here to argue - not us.

 sorry just to add another point.

here in scotland (probably the whole of britain to be fair) due to our destructive ways in the past we have boards like the "national trust" who only care about old buildings and pretty scenery. the pretty scenery is not allowed to be touched...dont abuse it and dont use it....dont build on it, dont develop it, dont let people see it, the national trust and other similar organisations are a pain in the royal arse because they veto as much use of the countryside as possible if it involves change. some may think thats ok but i don't. whats the point of having amazing countryside and not being allowed to make good use of it. it always amazes me how much development happens in europe on the slopes but here, its a no go area - what a bloody waste.

the NT are probably a necessary evil to stop things going too far but they stifle progression and development in all areas of use to their own ends. destroying tourism and sports. sure theres lots of people making use of nice walks and looking at old buildings, but think how much more could happen if places like nevis range, glencoe, aviemore, sutherland, etc etc were allowed to develop further, getting more people into the countryside to use it and appreciate it and therefore essentially creating a bigger group to protect it.

 Again - I am not against using timber...

If there is anything I am against it is what is done with timber afterwards, and I don't mean toilet paper, packaging etc... I mean building shtty houses (carpentry is next to dead trade, as we prefab more and more), we do cheap disposable quality furniture, and most people choose it over quality stuff because it's cheap! People got so stupid by shopping in malls that build quality is not a quality anymore - something is good only if it's cheap, not a single thought why some stuff is expensive. The level of retardation in wood processing craftmanship is terryfying. When i see what those metro-sexual designers do these days I am going nuts. Then stuff like matches... fk! I buy one box of matches per year, and refill my kitchen lighter once per year, then I use flint if I want to make fireplace. Think about reusing, respecting what you have, tryign to obtain stuff you can have for years - how difficult is that to vast majority of western world? fkn bunch of stuffed idiots.

I'm spending my second week now on sand papering and repainting a child bed that I bought used. Maybe if some people would do more of such stuff they would appreciate wood more. I am hating on doing waste from such beatiful thing like a forest, like a tree.

 These guys are rad, Bike mag did a story on them a couple years back.

 100% old trail......last laps on it unfortunately!!

 dirtbagluvin - not really sure what you mean by "100% old trail". If you meant that this vid is the old trail, it isn't.

 Progression had a link up to a helmet cam video that I made with Victor and Mason before the old trail got logged. He said it was 90% old trail, and I was saying that the vid was ALL old trail. Just noticed he took down the link. Great trail....sorry it got logged!!
www.pinkbike.com/video/217375

 Ah, yes. I thought that didn't quite add up.

Here's my favorite helmet cam of the North Trail
www.pinkbike.com/video/151942

 Yeah it's an awesome feeling , normally sat at the roll in to some kicker ya built thinking ' ok I hope this goes as well as it has been in my imagination for the last 2 months '

 are you serious, did you not see how wet it was? Fire rating was probably low, and I'm willing to bet they had water and dirt ready as soon they got the shot

 Our 5 gallon dirt buckets are overflowing with water after just a normal storm. Drainage considered on the entire build.

 Hey man, nice work. Where do i get me one of those Treelines Tee's??

 info@hiddenwave.net or www.hiddenwave.net

 Cheers, will get on one!

 Logging is not a problem. I would rather have them clear cut our trails over them putting in a housing development. you can always build more trails.

 And....to build on that topic. If our trails weren't in commercial working forests, they'd either be developed (as treelinesnw stated) or it's be some sort of conservation land where hikers end up dictating who can and can't use the areas. I think the vid's title is a bit misleading because, frankly, we've got a decent relationship with the loggers. They're just doing their job and we're out building our trails.

 Yeah, when we built that line, we knew full well that it get logged someday. The area was too good to pass up. I'm just glad we got ten+ years out of it.

Like Adam said, I'd much rather have a clear-cut than an apartment building!

 Word, ask the guys on the northshore, if they would have preferred logging. I'm guessing the answer would be yes.

 The local loggers up there are super cool. I have had many free shuttles up with those dudes.

 Now we can add runner up in the "Shoot the Trails" contest. Congrats guys!

 I totally missed the event. crap.

 Andy, I've got a gift certificate for you. PM me your address and I'll get it down to you. Nice job on the vid! EB

 its real.

 I agree with dnsukraine !

 are you serious, did you not see how wet it was? Fire rating was probably low, and I'm willing to bet they had water and dirt ready as soon they got the shot

 lol....you've obviously never been to the PNW, DocterDH. We usually build during the wettest months of the year. And when I say wet.....I mean WET.

 Hmmm, Aussie slang humor - he meant no disrespect, just saying how cool it was in Aussie speak! Thats all.

 dont be a douche bag doctorDH. coming from Oz you probably have no idea about wet forests so i think you can be forgiving for hating . but here in the scotland, we get about 1 month every year when we have dry trails in the forest and even then its not a fire hazard. in point of fact i dont think i have ever seen a clearfell area where the forestry hasnt started a bonfire of some sort.

mud = is nonflammable
wet mud = er... really nonflamable
wet logs = bloody hard to ignite
people in the area - is your safety control
rainy season = everything taken care of.

 DoctorDH is from NZ....not oz...to all kiwis i know its sorta like calling an american, canadian.

 shit sorry dude, and that officially makes me a douche then. yeah scots are definatelty not english, swedes definately not norwegian and canucks not american.!!.. sorry doctor DH

 No. This was a GREAT video, but in my opinion that part was in bad taste. Poor example to the next generation of builders.

 I get that a lot!