Kyle Lockwood and Kate Weatherly take the top steps of the Elite podiums after some wet and windy racing in New Zealand. Jenna Hastings ended the day with the win in the U19 Women's race and Guy Johnston just edging out the top prize in the U19 Men by
0.11 seconds. Check out the full results from the first round of the New Zealand national series below.
Results:
Elite Men:
1st. Kyle Lockwood: 2:44.36
2nd. Louis Hamilton: +1.2
3rd. Tuhoto-Ariki Pene: +1.83
4th. Bryn Dickerson: +4.15
5th. Matt Berry: +5.1
Elite Women:
1st. Kate Weatherly: 4:48.67
U19 Men:
1st. Guy Johnston: 3:00.87
2nd. Cameron Beck: +0.11
3rd. Lachlan Stevens-McNab: +0.2
4th. James Macdermid: +5.56
5th. Sam Weir: +10.8
U19 Women:
1st. Jenna Hastings: 4:43.12
2nd. Kalani Muirhead: +2:2.73
Full Results:Elite Men:Elite Women:U19 Men:U19 Women:See the full list of categories hereThe UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.
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On what one sure will be very different note, we take a second to appreciate that the guy who played Douglas Reynholm in The I.T. Crowd finished 5th in elite male? That’s a hell of a career change... “Faaaaatheeeeer!”
@hamncheez: so a male fetus will outperform any grown female athlete? You guys are so dense. Yes there are differences before puberty but they are minimal and equalized if hrt or puberty blockers are started before puberty, which is becoming the starting age in most countries. So in the long run, there won't be many problems because older transitioners will become rare and regulations of hormone levels more sophisticated.
Puberty blockers don't just "block" puberty. They sterilize the patient and have overwhelming negative health effects. Even if all they did was somehow delay puberty, puberty itself is a necessary stage of life for physical wellbeing. The removal of healthy tissue, like sex organs, either surgically or chemically, is bad medicine and ruins the patients life.
Male: small gametes
Femaile: large gametes
There is ZERO scientific debate of this FACT in mammalian biology. Your word-soup tries hard to confuse an issue that has NO confusion.
I appreciate you are not prejudice against trans people and that you took the time to state this here.
As regards the issue of fairness, I suppose it's up to the sport's governing body to continually investigate scientific evidence of the advantages a trans person may gain in a female sport and set the rules accordingly while still trying to be inclusive within the limits of fairness.
If the UCI have done this (I assume they have) I guess the only reasonable way to oppose the current rules is to petition them with scientific evidence of the advantages a trans person gains in this sort of scenario.
What's missing from a lot of the comments here is that scientific evidence, I'm genuinely ignorant but I to some extent trust that a governing body the size of the UCI will have put in a bit of groundwork before ruling on this.
Here is some recent stuff Steven. I would also like to state that I have no hate for trans people. I am filled with compassion for anyone who struggles to find their place. I have a trans person in my family and I love them.
I don't believe trans woman should complete against women.
Here is a recent study. Cheers.
www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short
bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329
The standout paragraph for me is
"Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events."
It would be good to know what the statistics were after 2 or 3 years given the decline in advantage over a year.
The UCI website states the following elligibility criteria:
"All transgender athletes wishing to compete in the category corresponding to their new gender must make their request to the medical manager appointed by the UCI, at least six weeks before the date of the first competition.
The athlete’s file will be passed on to a commission of three international experts independent of the UCI. The commission’s members will assess the athlete’s eligibility to compete in the new gender category and will inform the UCI’s medical officer of their conclusions.
The athlete must prove that their serum testosterone level has been below 5 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the eligibility date.
Once deemed eligible, the athlete must agree to keep their serum testosterone level below 5 nmol/L for the entire time they compete in the Women category.
The athlete must undergo serum testosterone tests conducted using a benchmark method (mass spectrometry)."
I guess what I am wondering is if there's a point where no advantage is present, and whether rules need to be adjusted accordingly as the scientific studies support it.
It seems arbitrarily restrictive to say trans women cannot compete against cis women ever. Especially IF it is possible to demonstrate any advantage is nullified with time + therapies.
Here is something unrelated to testosterone:
Visual acuity has consistently been shown to be better in males (Burg, 1966; McGuinness, 1976; Ishigaki and Miyao,1994; Abramov et al.,2012a)
Is that advantage going to disappear?
Other questions I would hope to see factored in if they truly wish to decide that the playing field is level:
1. Reaction time: Males have better reaction time on average.
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026141#:~:text=The%20mean%20fastest%20reaction%20time,ms%20and%20121%20ms%2C%20respectively.
2. Muscle Composition: Males have more fast-twitch fibres, crucial to high-speed reactions on a bike.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4285578
3. Pain: "A substantial body of research indicates that women experience greater clinical pain, suffer greater pain-related distress, and show heightened sensitivity to experimentally induced pain compared with men."
Even pain is a different experience between the sexes. What is to say that a trans-womans competitors are even able to train as hard?
4. Grip Strength: We are talking about downhill racing here. If you have stronger hands, you have an advantage.
"Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects. "
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19207233
I could go on and on. I did a degree in this stuff.
There are many differences between men and women and I suspect that in 2,3 years, there would be a retained advantage. I suspect in 50 years there would be a retained advantage.
I think its a decent argument to say testosterone is a simplistic measure to base rules on, but it surely begs for wider criteria from wider scientific studies rather than a blanket ban?
Challenging my own point, what we do in the meantime if we can demonstrate unfair advantage is another question.
You could keep studying it, spend the money to do longer-term studies. It's probably happening as we speak, but it's highly unlikely to lead to the results that the activists are looking for.
Where does that leave us? Likely bans for trans-women in elite sport, which governing bodies are trying to avoid, or avoiding to be the first. I believe at this point, only rugby, boxing, UFC have gone this route.
Let's also not forget, this issue only affects competitive sport. Obviously trans-women should be welcomed as athletes and members of sporting communities.
However, for world cup/championships, ultra elite level racing, peoples livelihoods are on the line. These are the heroes we look up to. There is no performance cap. If we make a rule that trans athletes can only compete if they have actual results below a certain threshold, then essentially you're saying they aren't allowed to win. No one wants that either.
There is no other way to be completely fair, since the majority of differences between the sexes is independent of testosterone, and can actually be observed in prepubescent children and even in fetuses before people are even born. The only logical outcome is a separate category for trans athletes, or only allowing competition within your actual sex. Yes this sucks, but life sucks sometimes. We have to look for the best solution among available options; usually there isn't a perfect answer.
Major global sports generally do not have immutable rules (OK wiki me wrong there's bound to be a ton of exceptions) and it's reasonable to adapt the rules according to new scientific information and cultural changes, we may be at a point in time where we suspect but cannot prove or disprove an advantage (it seems there's plenty of evidence for an advantage which diminishes over time and with therapies) and this puts the rules in a position where they can be construed as unfair, I accept that.
I don't see how it follows that the only logical outcome is a separate category for trans athletes, it might be reasonable to create this category and allow athletes to choose to enter it and continue to evaluate the rules on who can compete in the womens category based on scientific evidence.
As I mentioned earlier the most reasonable thing to do if you have a strong feeling about this is to present evidence to the sporting bodies and pressure them to change the rules.
The problem is that all the major sports governing bodies, the IOC, FIFA, UCI, etc are incredibly corrupt and bow to political pressure rather than what science says. If you come out with a position that is deemed "transphobic" you are boycotted, sued, threatened, etc. The pressure of activists is incredible. Just look at some of the people in this comment thread. They call medical treatment of a child who thinks they are the opposite sex "conversion therapy" and then wave it around like it has power over us. Look at the UCI right now, the science is overwhelming that no matter how much or how long you use hormone therapy, males retain their athletic advantage. The athletic advantage is present before puberty, before even birth. Yet the UCI ignores science and allows mens to compete against women.
This will always mean that some seasons have a rule book which may seem unfair with the benefit of hindsight, the more we know, you'd have to hope the better the rules will be with every iteration.
It's interesting what you say about corruption, if these governing bodies are so corrupt, why would you expect a level playing field at all? Surely the issue then is not with the rule itself but with the rule makers. If systemic shortcomings have led to this situation then we can examine any rule they make with the same cynicism. A change of governance is needed and not a change of rule.
You seem to imply the corruption is exacerbated by pressure from equal rights groups, and this appears to be central to your point about the rules we have - you go as far as to refer to trans women as 'men'. I think this is probably tainted by your own opinion of gender reassignment, I truly respect you have a different opinion from me, so lets leave that there, there's little point in coming at the argument from such different perspectives. There's a lot of polarity in these sort of discussions which rarely leads to an agreeable outcome.
"you go as far as to refer to trans women as 'men'."
This is the scientific, factual, apolitical way to describe trans women. Mammals are defined by having hair; shaving does not stop me from being a mammal.
We are a sexual dimorphic species, what else is there to say?
I think the claim this is scientific and factual is probably cherry-picking the facts to suit the bias.
This sounds again like "things are fixed and they can't be changed", evidently they are changing as we're here discussing that. This whole thread is commentary on how things are changing both for the human body and the sporting world.
Are you asserting that despite this, a person born a woman can never be a man and vice versa? If so by what criteria?
I thought we were at issue merely with the criteria of who should be allowed to compete against one another but you appear to be widening the discussion with larger assumptions about the human race as immutable fact.
www.npr.org/2018/11/08/665592537/69-year-old-dutch-man-seeks-to-change-his-legal-age-to-49
Yes, we can medically alter someone to either appear, or take on many physical traits of the opposite sex. However, this technology is in its infancy. It can not come close to making a female "male" or vice versa, and most of the treatments have severe side effects that dramatically reduce quality of life, life expectancy, overall health, and nearly all of them result in sterilization. We might be there someday, but that is not today nor in the near future.
Why can't that guy legally change his age? Why can't I compete in the Juniors? If I strongly identify as a youth, I take drugs to make my hormonal profile more along the lines of a 17 year old, and lose a lot of weight, would it be ok for me to compete in the Juniors? No. There are social, legal, and polite reasons why we segregate people based on age. It is inappropriate and illegal for me to date a 15 year old in my 30s. It wasn't when I was 16 and dating a 15 year old.
This same logic applies to the sexes. There are reasons why it is inappropriate for me to hang around in a womens dressing room (like what Trump did when he was running the Miss Universe or whatever it was). Medical technology cannot yet fully bridge the physiological gap to make it appropriate yet. That is not "cherry picking", thats the current state of medical science.
You keep saying I say "never", and "can't be changed". This is a clear misrepresentation of what I'm saying. The burden of proof is not on the girls wanting to compete against only women, the burden of proof is on you- you have to prove that a man can be physiologically changed enough to make it a fair competition. If you are proposing something that will upset peoples entire livelihoods, you better have dang good evidence.
Yay for more science and less rigid rules!
Interesting that you say "the burden of proof is on you- you have to prove that a man can be physiologically changed enough to make it a fair competition" when the current rules are such that the reverse is true, you have to prove that any advantage for trans athletes makes competition unfair.
I suppose we could go on and on about this, there are evidently differing opinions about whether the UCI and other sporting bodies have made the right decision with the current rules.
You evidently don't think they have made the right decision, and I genuinely don't know, I've learned a lot talking about it though.
Thankfully whichever side of the debate you are on the rules can always be changed with enough supporting scientific evidence and societal pressure. That much at least is fair.
^ Sound ridiculous to you? Now you know how I feel about watching guys tape it back and then be allowed to beat out my daughter for the last spot on her National Team.
How has Biden guaranteed this will keep happening to more young women though? I'd heard about the armed forces changes but didn't realise this extended to sport too. Excuse my ignorance, genuine question.
I'm trying to find the women athletes here commenting that this isn't fair but it seems to be the usual sausage party.
"Rawson, 19, went public with her frustrations, saying the lack of a stand-down period between Weatherly's change of categories was confusing and unfair and was one reason only five women turned up to race.
She posted on Facebook that cycling had always been a gender-specific sport, "not a competition among individuals around hormone levels or physiological advantages".
She said she'd worked hard and committed her life to the sport "but never did I imagine I would be faced with this", signing off #brokenbutnotdown.
Rawson has stepped back from discussing the issue; her father Ash, says she's received flak for speaking out."
interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field
I just want to be clear that having no medical training and no scientific knowledge of the supposed advantages Kate would have over other female competitors I'm genuinely ignorant here.
Seems like something a sporting body would investigate and legislate on, have the UCI done this? If so it seems like the authorities have set the rules.
For more related to the Kate Weatherly situation, I wish there was a way for people to watch Karen Duthie's "100% Woman" about Michelle Dumaresq that came out in 2004. www.imdb.com/title/tt1097207 It's a complex situation, but in the latter case, I don't think there were any boycotts.
But that's just my opinion, man.
quick. go ask anyone how many islands make up the UK.(would wager you don't know without googling)